SPOILERS FFVII:R Chapter 18 Spoiler Discussion

[Maidenofwar]

Everyone who found the Motor Ball easy come to my house and beat it for me right now ?

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Everyone who found the Motor Ball easy come to my house and beat it for me right now ?

For science, do you use Inverted Y-axis for camera controls or not?



X

 

[ForceStealer]

It is remarkable to me how different people have had difficulty or ease with completely different fights. That's always the case to some extent, but I feel like it's especially so in this game.

 

[Prism]

I have many feelings about the ending. My contention is that any inaccuracies or divergences are missed opportunities.

When I praise accuracy, I want to clarify something - it isn’t accuracy for accuracy’s sake. It allows for these classic moments and environments to be brought to a new perspective, giving it new life in a new medium - this is something endlessly intriguing to me. Any divergence means less of the original, both minor and iconic parts, will get this treatment. We’ve already seen how well they can recreate scenes in 90% of the game - their attention to detail was spectacular.

Visiting Gongaga and meeting Zack’s parents meant a lot to me (especially given his sacrifice), helping Cid achieve his dreams in Rockettown, having fun in the Gold Saucer, seeing Sephiroth’s abomination of a form in the Northern Crater, everything with the City of the Ancients...I hope these are still present factors. I think as long as the individual components are represented accurately, I won’t mind how much they remix them. Does that make sense? Given how they’ve set up Palmer (who is very relevant in the Rockettown arc) and introduced the concept of Mako poisoning through Jessie's father, I have a feeling the individual scenes we see will be pretty similar to the original. Whether they have different implications or outcomes it up in the air.

As much as I like the Compilation, I like it for different reasons than the original VII, which, despite its metaphysical story, had a more grounded base. I was hoping Remake would be a return to this, and in many ways it was. The ending wasn’t, but I feel like it’ll only get like that during crazy climaxes. The thing that gives me hope is that all of the new content in Remake was spectacular (except for the mutants Barret and Tifa fought and the designs of the Arbiters)

Square has a rare opportunity that they can build on something as iconic as the original VII, so I’m very curious to see what they do with it. And I am excited to see these characters we love in new scenarios.

It is remarkable to me how different people have had difficulty or ease with completely different fights. That's always the case to some extent, but I feel like it's especially so in this game.

This just goes to show how important proper strategies are in the battles. It definitely isn’t “press to win.” Some people just have the proper strats when fighting certain bosses.

I wanted to comment on something from about a page back (particularly @Shademp's post).

I think it's important for everyone to take a step back and evaluate what is it about FFVII that we are so deeply attached to. This is not a real world with real people, but we all tend to talk about it as if that were the case. We all have our own reasons. A creator would not be able to connect with or influence their audience otherwise. In the end, it's not really about FFVII - it's about how it makes us feel and why it makes us feel that way (or why it originally made us feel a certain way, years ago, and why we ran with it for years), on the most personal of levels. There are a lot of things that resonate with many people - death, income inequality, redemption, reverence of nature, idolatry, pride. Certain characters, their experiences, and how they respond to them. Or simply nostalgia for a lost time. Our parasocial relationship with FFVII and its characters, ships, etc, is ultimately a relationship with ourselves, comprised of entities that are reflections of the self that is pondering them, and it's important to remind ourselves of who we are and who we want to be. There is a laundry list of personal reasons why this franchise and its characters continue to grip my attention, and it's all rooted in lived experiences.

Also, damn. This is one hell of a post - thanks for these words.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

It is remarkable to me how different people have had difficulty or ease with completely different fights. That's always the case to some extent, but I feel like it's especially so in this game.

A big factor is how you're approaching the situations with Materia loadouts & how you're using the characters, as that's gonna shift which fights are easier & harder based on your core tactical approaches. Then that sharp-to-dull balance just swings extra hard in one direction or the other because of the QA/polish issues as the game progresses.



X

 

[Maidenofwar]

I beat it! My camera and stuffs were on default ? I think it took five or six tries? I got to the stage where Motor Ball shoots orange balls twice, and won the second time, first time Cloud was on a sliver of health wailing on stagger when the door bell rang, I got distracted and when I came back I thought I'd won since MB's HP bar appeared empty, it wasn't! ?

Final boss time!?

 

[Suzaku]

And the characters during the Whisper Harbinger fight definitely aren’t supposed to understand any of the AC/C footage visions

I think it's also worth clarifying that while these scenes are pulled from Advent Children, none of them actually depict the events of Advent Children. Rather, they're all from the opening scenes of the movie that depict moments from the original game.

 

[Theozilla]

I think it's also worth clarifying that while these scenes are pulled from Advent Children, none of them actually depict the events of Advent Children. Rather, they're all from the opening scenes of the movie that depict moments from the original game.

Oh yeah I know that, I have even stated that factoid in the past as well. I just was trying to less pedantic in my sentence structure than I usually am.

 

[Odysseus]

Right now I'm stuck between wondering if the recycled Advent Children opening footage was just saving on resources, or if it should be read into more.

 

[Theozilla]

Right now I'm stuck between wondering if the recycled Advent Children opening footage was just saving on resources, or if it should be read into more.

Perhaps both?

 

[Magos-Dominus]

I don't think its just a way to save on resources, I go into it a bit in the long stream-of-consciousness observations thread I posted earlier today, but here was my relevant bit of analysis on that and Chapter 18:

"I've seen a lot of complaints about the final sequence that is Chapter 18 being too much like Advent Children, particularly the fight choreography, and theories about how the Whisper sub-bosses are manifestations of Kadaj/Loz/Yazoo and Bahamut SIN from the movie, but I'd argue it actually goes a lot further than that.

The Whispers, within the mystical, surrealist pseudo-reality manifested by the Lifestream in Chapter 18, symbolically manifest, from antagonists to setting, the conflicts in Advent Children to oppose Aerith, Barret, Cloud, and Tifa as incarnations of the future they are trying to preserve. The symbolic nature of the Latin-Word Themed Whisper sub-bosses I don't think are in contest here, but there's more than that. Not only does the encounter take place in the same ruined-Midgar setting as the movie's climax, the Chapter shares the film's washed out, monochrome color pallet, in addition to the over-the-top high-powered fight sequence between Cloud and Sephiroth where they're fighting through and with titanic chunks of urban rubble and blasting apart house-sized chunks of debris with single strokes, despite the rest of the game being fairly low-powered as far as the party's strength is concerned (See: Cloud and Barret wailing on a metal door in Chapter 17 to no avail) and in contrast with the rest of the game's vibrant, colorful environments.

The 'Chapter 18 as Advent-Children-Themed-Fever-Dream' continues after the Harbinger is defeated and the fight with Sephiroth begins, with him manifesting the now-iconic singular black wing from the movie, the recreation of the fight through the crumbling remnants of the Shin-Ra building, down to (and I'd have to go back and check this, but its likely given the care taken with the scene from Crisis Core) a few frame-for-frame recreations of some of the shots in that final fight, and the fact that this version of Sephiroth has at least the broad strokes knowledge of the future, AVALANCHE is metaphorically, symbolically, and to a degree literally, fighting the Sephiroth from the end of Advent Children."

 

[Magos-Dominus]

"Advent Children is at the heart of FFVII: REMAKE" was not a metaphorical statement.

 

[Jairus]

Was just watching the plate collapse scene again and noticed something quite interesting. Despite the destruction going on all around it, the tower itself remains intact. See here:

Not only is the tower relatively undamaged, it's not even on fire. The plate comes apart all around it, falling down in pieces, but it seems the tower itself remained pretty much untouched. This, of course, greatly adds to the chances of a certain Avalanche member's survival and also somewhat explains how Biggs could've lived through the collapse as well. He was lower down but still in the tower. But even though she was near the top, it seems Jessie could still have made it since it seems the tower didn't blow up or fall apart after all. And if a rescue team knew there was a possible survivor up there, they'd surely find a way to get past the gap in the stairs.

 

[Theozilla]

Just because it doesn't fall in that specific animation sequence doesn't mean it doesn't eventually collapse, as it is no where to be seen in the background of Chapter 13 or Chapter 15. So by logical deduction the support pillar did eventually collapse/get crushed.

 

[Jairus]

Not necessarily. The group might just have not ever been in a position to see it. You can't go far enough in the Sector 7 slum ruins to get within sight of where the tower would be. It's wiser to go by what you see rather than what you don't see. And what we see in the collapse shows that the tower remained intact. And also, if the pillar had been crushed or collapsed, Biggs would be dead. But he isn't. Which means it was still standing after the plate drop.

 

[Theozilla]

Except the support pillar is visible in the background of the equivalent parts of the Slums during Chapters 3/4. Even with the surrounding debris in Chapter 13, if the support pillar was still intact you would be able to see peaking up in the background. As for how Biggs survived its collapse, who knows? Maybe he was found and evacuated before everything fell or perhaps like with Wedge and other survivors the debris fell around him in such a manner that it created an alcove that prevented him from being crushed by other debris.
Also the Chapter 15 skybox/horizonbox also shows no intact support pillar either, and that Chapter was the more accurate one in depicting the proper amount of debris from the plate collapse.

 

[Maidenofwar]

It might have been a fever dream but I think my Aerith told Cloud to just go screw himself.-"Did you miss me?" "Not really" "He's a tough one (Sephiroth said this?) "So what? yeah screw him!' something like that? Idk i just woke up, i crashed at some point.

 

[oty]

Cloud said "He's a tough one". But yeah, that doesnt seem at all impossible considering how snarky Aerith is in this game.

 

[Jairus]

Except the support pillar is visible in the background of the equivalent parts of the Slums during Chapters 3/4. Even with the surrounding debris in Chapter 13, if the support pillar was still intact you would be able to see peaking up in the background. As for how Biggs survived its collapse, who knows? Maybe he was found and evacuated before everything fell or perhaps like with Wedge and other survivors the debris fell around him in such a manner that it created an alcove that prevented him from being crushed by other debris.
Also the Chapter 15 skybox/horizonbox also shows no intact support pillar either, and that Chapter was the more accurate one in depicting the proper amount of debris from the plate collapse.

Then why wasn't its destruction ever shown? Nobody would be looking for survivors in the midst of the collapse, everybody would be trying to get out at that time. He had to have been found later. And you don't know you'd be able to see the pillar in Chapter 13. The debris blocks a lot of the view. Chapter 15 is the ascent, and you're in a different part of the sector from where the pillar was. Also, looking down, you're much farther away. Way too far to see it whether it's up or down. Why are you so against Jessie being alive? There would be no reason to show her glove if she wasn't. Also, the very fact that her glove was found proves that the tower was at least intact enough for her to be found one way or the other. Otherwise it wouldn't have been there, because it can't have come off by itself. She had to have been found in order to get it and for it to be on the dresser.

 

[Theozilla]

Then why wasn't its destruction ever shown? Nobody would be looking for survivors in the midst of the collapse, everybody would be trying to get out at that time. He had to have been found later. And you don't know you'd be able to see the pillar in Chapter 13. The debris blocks a lot of the view. Chapter 15 is the ascent, and you're in a different part of the sector from where the pillar was. Also, looking down, you're much farther away. Way too far to see it whether it's up or down. Why are you so against Jessie being alive? There would be no reason to show her glove if she wasn't. Also, the very fact that her glove was found proves that the tower was at least intact enough for her to be found one way or the other. Otherwise it wouldn't have been there, because it can't have come off by itself. She had to have been found in order to get it and for it to be on the dresser.

I have no significant feelings on Jessie being alive or not, at least no more than I do with Wedge.

We just don’t see the pillar’s direct destruction in the barely a minute sequence of Cloud, Tifa, and Barret’s escapes that doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. And Cloud was climbing the support pillar for a significant amount of time after he passed by Biggs, that’s plenty of time for other minor Avalanche members, Neighborhood Watch, or random citizens to grab someone like Biggs from the lower levels and hightail it out of the slums with him.

Also the debris in Chapter 13 doesn’t obscure that much. We’re even able to see the support pillars of Sector 6 (and 8) in the background during that Chapter. If we could see those, then we would definitely be able to see the sector 7 support pillar if it was still standing.
And the background box in Chapter 15 literally depicts the horizon past the inner circle of the Reactors, if the support pillar was still standing, we would have seen it as it was in the inner circle area of the plate.

 

[Maidenofwar]

Aahh, thank you oty!

Just thinking how hilarious it would be if it were Sephiroth *Cloud and Aerith snark at each other* *Sephiroth casual observation input* *Aerith firecrackers* Then later when Tifa comes Aerith "Tifa! ?" ?

 

[Jairus]

I have no significant feelings on Jessie being alive or not, at least no more than I do with Wedge.

We just don’t see the pillar’s direct destruction in the barely a minute sequence of Cloud, Tifa, and Barret’s escapes that doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. And Cloud was climbing the support pillar for a significant amount of time after he passed by Biggs, that’s plenty of time for other minor Avalanche members, Neighborhood Watch, or random citizens to grab someone like Biggs from the lower levels and hightail it out of the slums with him.

Also the debris in Chapter 13 doesn’t obscure that much. We’re even able to see the support pillars of Sector 6 (and 8) in the background during that Chapter. If we could see those, then we would definitely be able to see the sector 7 support pillar if it was still standing.
And the background box in Chapter 15 literally depicts the horizon past the inner circle of the Reactors, if the support pillar was still standing, we would have seen it as it was in the inner circle area of the plate.

You didn't answer my observation, though. The fact that Jessie's glove was on the dresser proves that she was found, one way or the other. And the fact that she was found proves that the tower was at least intact enough for her to have been found. Otherwise she never would have been, and her glove wouldn't be on the dresser.

Also, why would rescue people be going into the tower before the collapse when it was still uncertain whether the plate would fall or not and while it was still under attack?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Why are you so against Jessie being alive? There would be no reason to show her glove if she wasn't.

Eh, I'm with you on there being a better-than-reasonable chance of this, but let's not say "no reason." There could be a few. They've certainly provided enough precedent and circumstantial evidence to give themselves an out if they decide to pull the trigger on this, but we simply don't know yet which direction they're going to go.

This latest exhibit of potential evidence, though, is less compelling than what we already had before, and ultimately doesn't stand up to thorough scrutiny for the reasons Theo has given. That the support structure fell at some point is clear. Reconcile that, if need be, with the possibility that it was hours before it all came down from being weakened in the initial platefall.

EDIT: Jesus. Calm down, yo.

 

[Theozilla]

You didn't answer my observation, though. The fact that Jessie's glove was on the dresser proves that she was found, one way or the other. And the fact that she was found proves that the tower was at least intact enough for her to have been found. Otherwise she never would have been, and her glove wouldn't be on the dresser.

Also, why would rescue people be going into the tower before the collapse when it was still uncertain whether the plate would fall or not and while it was still under attack?

I don't know why you are so hung up on the support pillar being intact when it very obviously wasn't. Like Jessie being found dead or alive doesn't require for the the support pillar to have been intact (especially so in the former case).

And why wouldn't there people be going up to check for survivors before the plate was guaranteed to fall? Aerith and Wedge got people to start evacuating before it was confirmed that the plate was dropping no matter what.

 

[Cannon_Fodder]

Re: Jessie and Biggs: after redoing Chapter 12 last night, I noticed that the story tab describes Biggs as "seriously injured," while the entry about Jessie says that Cloud and Tifa "lose her." I don't think that's definitive evidence either way, but that choice of words matches with Biggs being alive when Cloud and Tifa move on, and Jessie not. (Poor Wedge doesn't get an entry here or in Chapter 17).

Please note that I'm just pointing this out because I happened to notice it, I'm not interested in a debate about this.