SPOILERS FFVII:R Chapter 18 Spoiler Discussion

[Suzaku]

No, as I have argued previously, I don’t think the OG is being acknowledged as some alternate timeline in story. I believe “the future” and “fated destiny” stuff is from a future the Planet in the Remake is currently on track to be “fated” for, likely a future where Sephiroth won and became a God like being (or perhaps one where The Lifestream dies from over Mako usage). The protagonists are being set up as being capable of changing fate/destiny from that “bad future”. And I don’t think Zack is somehow alive, I think there might be like time-space singularity stuff and other weird visit shenanigans going on. But I don’t think the game is implying Zack didn’t die.

Are you basing this on the game, or just guessing? I don't get why the arbiters would be trying to ensure the Planet's demise. Maybe I missed something, but I don't know where the "from the future" thing comes from either. I'm seeing lots of references to destiny, but nothing implying time travel.

 

[Theozilla]

I

Are you basing this on the game, or just guessing? I don't get why the arbiters would be trying to ensure the Planet's demise. Maybe I missed something, but I don't know where the "from the future" thing comes from either. I'm seeing lots of references to destiny, but nothing implying time travel.

I am basing it on the game.
And I don’t think the game is implying literal time-travel (like back to the future style or Rebuild of Evangelion timeline reset/reboot theories) either, but I do think the game is dealing with some form of abstract high fantasy/concept version of fate/destiny. The “bad future” stuff comes from the descriptions of the Whispers:

And I think the Whispers (or at least part of them) could contrIbuting to the Planet’s demise in the same way the WEAPONs in the OG were manipulated by Sephiroth to his benefit. Whether it is through direct control or some indirect manipulation of The Planet’s “immune system” it appears that Sephiroth is using the Whispers to his advantage.
The way I see how the Whispers function/exist is similar, to use a pop culture example, is the way the “time cops”/langoliers work, they sorta exist outside of time/exist in the past/present/future simultaneously.

Moving through time for the Whispers is like moving through space for mortals.
That’s how I have interpreted the spoilers/info gleaned so far.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

@Theozilla
What of the rumors I'm hearing that Sephiroth wants the Watchmen out of his way, though? That they're an impediment to his desired future?

I even saw a clip (I don't know from which chapter) where Sephiroth straight-up murders Barret only for a Whisper to promptly reverse it.

 

[Theozilla]

@Theozilla
What of the rumors I'm hearing that Sephiroth wants the Watchmen out of his way, though? That they're an impediment to his desired future?

I even saw a clip (I don't know from which chapter) where Sephiroth straight-up murders Barret only for a Whisper to promptly reverse it.

Yeah I saw that clip too. That’s why I said maybe Sephiroth only controls some of the Whispers and not all of them.
I also acknowledge maybe the Whispers are from some other “bad future” that happens to not be to Sephiroth’s benefit/interests either? Like the Lifestream being drained too much, since Sephiroth needs wants to corrupt/control the Lifestream not destroy it.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I think Sephiroth has control of them however they work on a sort of "balance" system; Sephiroth may not fully be aware of all paths or directions they require their intended future to take. Not sure what happened but Barret lucked out and was on the right side of their equation apparently.

My game needs to hurry up and get here. I need to tear into this

 

[Obsidian Fire]

I'm probably saying this from the PoV of someone who won't be able to play the game until Part 2 is close to releasing... But given how many red herrings crop up in Midgar in the OG, I'm actually not that willing to take a lot of the new information we're getting at face value. At least... not until after the info-dumps that happen in Cosmo Canyon and Icicle Inn.

Midgar in the OG is where we're introduced to such concepts as "the Lifestream", "the Promised Land" and "Jenova". Only... all the stuff we're told about those things turns out to be very incomplete or flat out wrong. Refining mako turns out to be far worse than anything Cloud and Co. thought it was. The Promised Land isn't a land overflowing with mako. Jenova turns out to be an alien.

Cosmo Canyon is when we finally figure out a lot of stuff out about how the Lifestream is "supposed" to work. As well as what a "failure state" for the Planet looks like. If the Whispers are connected to the Planet, that is where I'd expect us to find out what is really going on with them.

Icicle Inn is where the true nature of Jenova is revealed. As well a

One thing I do wonder about the Whispers. What is their role when Jenova comes on the scene? I have a really hard time buying the "they somehow know what will happen in the future" explanation when you've literally got the Thing From Outer Space crashing in out of nowhere. Are they how the Lifestream tries to warn the Ancients? Is Jenova somehow making use of them? Or were they just oblivious to the entire thing because Jenova isn't something of the Planet and the Whispers are? Other fun ideas about the Whispers the don't have anything to do with Jenova... Elmyra say the Lifestream "talks" to the Cetra and/or makes its will known to them. I kinda wonder if the Whispers were part of that mechanism...

Which also gets into an issue that is... actually present in the OG now that I think about it. How does the Lifestream determine what its will is? This is where the uncertainty of Holy's effect comes from after all. No one knows if the Planet will determine if humanity will survive Holy. In fact, several characters note that it might be better for the Planet if humanity isn't around to mess with it anymore! Honestly... make the Whispers white instead of black and when they're all crowded together... It wouldn't look all that different from the effect of Holy. Given the way the OG ends, I actually could see "letting the Planet's will be done" be a running theme throughout the game.

This leads me to a weird idea about the Planet itself. It's... basically a giant AI running ecology simulations and then picking the "best one" to impliment. No, really. All the data from how stuff dies is "stored" in the Lifestream and new life gets born from the Lifestream as needed. But how does the Planet know what life will be born next? And if something goes wrong with the simulation, how is it supposed to get the simulation "back on track"? In fact, what does "back on track" look like? I would not be surprised if the "future" being talked about is pretty much "the future the Lifestream simulated, but didn't actually end up doing in real-life". Only now you've got Sephrioth down there messing around with the future simulations...

IDK... I'm obviously rambling a bit. I do find it interesting that all the talk about the Whispers has so far been centered on where they show up in the current FFVII story... when I haven't read anything in the game that suggests they would only have shown up there.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

IDK... I'm obviously rambling a bit. I do find it interesting that all the talk about the Whispers has so far been centered on where they show up in the current FFVII story... when I haven't read anything in the game that suggests they would only have shown up there.

Yeah, that for me seems like the biggest clue that someone is working to alter the series of events from the original game: the fact we never saw the Whispers active in the original.

 

[Theozilla]

Eh, I still don’t think the events of the OG are going to be referenced in-story in the Remake. I think it’s mostly in reference to the “bad future” stuff.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I mean, I'd prefer that not be the case, but it's hard not to take terminology like "future timeline" and "present day" for what it most readily suggests. Especially with the same director coming into this on the heels of that time travel mess KH has turned into.

 

[Theozilla]

I mean, I'd prefer that not be the case, but it's hard not to take terminology like "future timeline" and "present day" for what it most readily suggests. Especially with the same director coming into this on the heels of that time travel mess KH has turned into.

Why does the “future timeline” terminology lend itself to the idea it’s referencing the OG specifically as a separate in-universe timeline” A nebulous “bad future” fits the terminology just as well if not better.

 

[Suzaku]

@Theozilla
What of the rumors I'm hearing that Sephiroth wants the Watchmen out of his way, though? That they're an impediment to his desired future?

I even saw a clip (I don't know from which chapter) where Sephiroth straight-up murders Barret only for a Whisper to promptly reverse it.

And in the end of the new trailer they walk into the Midgar "cocoon" saying "this may be her last line of defense" most likely referring to the Planet.

And Sephiroth flat out tells Cloud that they will defy fate together, so obviously he is conspiring to change destiny, too.

Maybe I'm misreading it, but that final boss looking arena looks like the party literally beneath or inside of Meteor, and there's I think a giant purple aura with Sephiroth in the middle all bound up by chains? Like chains of destiny?

Again, not having seen much beyond the trailers and a few short snippits, the impression I get is that the arbiters of fate are trying to preserve the "correct" or "safe" timeline, and Sephiroth is pitting the party against them in order to force destiny to change.

It really doesn't seem like they are protecting a "bad future." That doesn't make sense in this context, since it's something the Planet wants and Sephiroth doesn't.

Unless they are saying "her" referring to Jenova? I guess she is a "dark harbinger" which implies foretelling a dark destiny.

I don't know. I almost just want to go dark until I've beaten the game myself.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Why does the “future timeline” terminology lend itself to the idea it’s referencing the OG specifically as a separate in-universe timeline” A nebulous “bad future” fits the terminology just as well if not better.

In addition to the point Suzaku just made (that Seph seems to be defying what the planet wants), there's the point Obsidian made (that these entities never felt it necessary to make themselves known during the original game) and that, well, we've already seen a future timeline for FFVII -- and it wasn't favorable to Seph.

Also, honestly? I'm pretty sure these ghouls are metatextually standing in for us fans who don't want any significant changes to the story. =P Nomura probably conjured them as a cathartic outlet for a) the pressure put on him by the fandom in the remaking of this game; and b) the tension that exists for him on a personal level between wanting to craft a faithful recreation and a whole new take.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Yeah, that for me seems like the biggest clue that someone is working to alter the series of events from the original game: the fact we never saw them active in the original.

This is... actually... I'm very interested in how Holy will be described in this game. Because Holy in the OG is pretty much "Planet, do whatever will make your future better!" And the Whispers so far seem to be "Something doing whatever will make its future better". I actually wonder if Holy and the Whisperers are linked in some way.

Bugenhagen
If a soul seeking Holy reaches the planet, it will appear.
Meteor, Weapon, everything will disappear.
Perhaps, even ourselves.

Cloud
Even us!?

Bugenhagen
It is up to the planet to decide.
What is best for the planet. What is bad for the planet.
All that is bad will disappear. That is all.

My question is... how does the Planet decide what is good and what is bad? We never really find that out in the OG!

 

[Kratos]

In regards to not appearing in the original: it's hard to tell if that's because something conjured them here that didn't before, or if it's just as simple as them being a new addition to the lore.

(I hadn't seen that Barrett Reversal. That sounds really dumb, but as anything, I'll wait until I see it all in context)

 

[Theozilla]

In addition to the point Suzaku just made (that Seph seems to be defying what the planet wants), there's the point Obsidian made (that these entities never felt it necessary to make themselves known during the original game) and that, well, we've already seen a future timeline for FFVII -- and it wasn't favorable to Seph.

Also, honestly? I'm pretty sure these ghouls are metatextually standing in for us fans who don't want any significant changes to the story. =P Nomura probably conjured them as a cathartic outlet for a) the pressure put on him by the fandom in the remaking of this game; and b) the tension that exists for him on a personal level between wanting to craft a faithful recreation and a whole new take.

While Sephiroth seems to also be defying the Planet, he is also using the Whispers to his advantage in multiple scenes, it’s very possible that Sephiroth has hijacked part of the Planet’s defenses but not the entirety of them. Also just because the Whispers weren’t in the OG is kinda nebulous reasoning, that can apply to almost any kind of new material/change in the Remake (like Kratos mentioned).
And I won’t deny that the Whispers likely aren’t meant to be some form of meta-symbolism, but symbolism isn’t the same as Watsonian in story plot points.

Anyways, either way, I think all of us can agree once we get the game ourselves and complete it, we’ll have much better understanding of what Remake is doing with the plot.

 

[oty]

Boy, the spoilers thread in the subreddits are hurting my brain. I'm actuallt getting an aneurysm

 

[rkss]

Eh, I still don’t the events of the OG are going to be referenced in-story in the Remake. I think it’s mostly in reference to the “bad future” stuff.

They show a AC footage and Nanaki says it's bad future though?

My question is... how does the Planet decide what is good and what is bad? We never really find that out in the OG!

I don't think the planet care, whatever hurting it = bad. That's why Aerith had to die so she could talk to the planet. Which raises another question:
Should she die again this time?

I believe she should for the story to make sense but it's Nojima, he killed Tidus with a blizball. Anything can happen now.

 

[Theozilla]

They show a AC footage and Nanaki says it's bad future though?.

AC footage isn’t the OG though. Also that takes place 500 years into the future, so that can mean very many different things. (also I did not expect AC footage to be used for a vision, is that for real?)

I don't think the planet care, whatever hurting it = bad. That's why Aerith had to die so she could talk to the planet. Which raise another question:
Should she die again this time?

I believe she should for the story to make sense but it's Nojima, he killed Tidus with a blizball. Anything can happen now

Nojima can definitely do weird things. But I really doubt the Remake is going to end up having a different overall plot. Like others have said the journey is going to be pretty different, but the destination I bet will be the same.

 

[rkss]

AC footage isn’t the OG though. Also that takes place 500 years into the future, so that can mean very many different things. (also I did not expect AC footage to be used for a vision, is that for real?)

https://streamable.com/n0dk3x

They're going for time travel/multiple universes stuff. And for the fact that Sephiroth already read the script, Aerith read part of it , Cloud also know something because he has Jenova's cells? It's already killed OG's feeling for me. I don't know what to think.

 

[Theozilla]

I think it’s too early to say that time travel/multiple universe stuff is happening. Especially when we know that the scene with Nanaki and his cubs is not a bad future. It looks to me more that Jenova’s abilities/nature (and by extension Sephiroth’s) are being expanded to be capable of existing in higher dimension (for lack of a better term). And I don’t think Aerith understanding the nature of the Planet means she knows the future/her fate.

I am also just surprised that they just literally reused the AC/C footage, considering that Nanaki’s design/rendering differ noticeably between the Remake and the film.

 

[Aphyo]

I think it’s too early to say that time travel/multiple universe stuff is happening. Especially when we know that the scene with Nanaki and his cubs is not a bad future. It looks to me more that Jenova’s abilities/nature (and by extension Sephiroth’s) are being expanded to be capable of existing in higher dimension (for lack of a better term). And I don’t think Aerith understanding the nature of the Planet means she knows the future/her fate.

Sorry, I can't agree.

Spoiler

In the scene with Zack, we see a piece of advertisement, that shows Stamp, blowing in the wind. However, Stamp is a different breed of dog. It is clearly alternate timeline BS.

 

[Wol]

If at least they changed into something original, but defying fate, alternate dimensions are the opposite of that.

Also messing with timeline is a mess, and we're talking about Nomura and Nojima handling the overall plot.

This will be a wild ride, get ready lol

 

[Makoeyes987]

I think I've said this on the previous page.

That's not Stamp. If you go through the game and lore of the Remake, there is the mascot Stamp, but he also has lesser ranked puppy pals that are his friends. So no, that's not Stamp from another dimension. That's a mistake.

Not to try and go "Stop Having Fun" here, but until someone actually experience/watches this ending with the full context and experience of the game's lead up to frame said event, we're grasping at straws in the dark. And misinformation and misunderstanding is going to be the end result.

So far I don't think anyone has an idea of what lead up or context exists for this final confrontation, and there doesn't seem to be any narrative framing or exposition that answers how any of this is happening. It's like watching the ending of a completely new entry or franchise one is unfamiliar with, and then trying to glean meaning from it. It's best to wait because this is like a maze.

 

[rkss]

I think it’s too early to say that time travel/multiple universe stuff is happening. Especially when we know that the scene with Nanaki and his cubs is not a bad future. It looks to me more that Jenova’s abilities/nature (and by extension Sephiroth’s) are being expanded to be capable of existing in higher dimension (for lack of a better term). And I don’t think Aerith understanding the nature of the Planet means she knows the future/her fate.

I am also just surprised that they just literally reused the AC/C footage, considering that Nanaki’s design/rendering differ noticeably between the Remake and the film.

How bout this?
When you use sense on Watchers of Fate:

https://imgur.com/a/mAY88hX

Another misleading info?

I saw the stream from Rufus' fight to ending. Tried to not draw a conclusion from 3-4 hours long of gameplay but so far, I'm leaning toward multiple universe.
I can post full Zack's scene if anyone want.

 

[Theozilla]

How bout this?
When you use sense on Watchers of Fate:

https://imgur.com/a/mAY88hX

Another misleading info?

Have you not been reading the older posts in this thread? I literally discuss said screenshot in a post earlier in this very page of the thread: https://thelifestream.net/forums/th...8-spoiler-discussion.22424/page-3#post-845852