So the copies have powers of their own? Because they would need a lot of power to break into the ShinRa building, or to clash swords with Cloud(like we saw in one of the trailers, when Cloud and Seph confront each other in front of Jenova's tank).
SPOILERS FFVII:R Chapter 18 Spoiler Discussion
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So the copies have powers of their own? Because they would need a lot of power to break into the ShinRa building, or to clash swords with Cloud(like we saw in one of the trailers, when Cloud and Seph confront each other in front of Jenova's tank).
The Twilight Mexican
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It's just Sephiroth's/Jenova's power.
Ironic that they have black-cloaked dudes turning into Seph in the Shin-Ra building and carrying Jenova away here when that was one of the fandom's prevailing misconceptions about what happened there in the original for yeeeeaaaaaars.
... Probably why they did it.
Ironic that they have black-cloaked dudes turning into Seph in the Shin-Ra building and carrying Jenova away here when that was one of the fandom's prevailing misconceptions about what happened there in the original for yeeeeaaaaaars.
... Probably why they did it.
Obsidian Fire
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I'm half-temped to think certain things in the plot are a result of the SE dev team trawling through the FFVII Fandom and deciding to give people what they have been writing/drawing about for over 25 years.
Theozilla
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Well didn’t Kitase say in one of those Inside the Remake videos that he deliberately didn’t replay the OG during development and instead focused on what he emotionally felt/remembered about it?
Also the OG definitely had a lot of leftover bits and pieces from early development ideas that made things confusing (e.g. the “this isn’t a normal reactor” dialogue from inner Cloud during the first Bombing run being a leftover scene that never actually got followed up on).
Also the OG definitely had a lot of leftover bits and pieces from early development ideas that made things confusing (e.g. the “this isn’t a normal reactor” dialogue from inner Cloud during the first Bombing run being a leftover scene that never actually got followed up on).
Wol
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Mobius is not nearly as complicated as their other works, I love that game.@The Twilight Mexican Toriyama & Nojima also wrote Mobius FF as well.
GoldSaucerPoints
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I must confess to being disappointed about this as well.
I share your burnout on that. After KH2, AC(C), Dissidia, and the "Fatal Calling" crossover with MobiusFF, I'm just kind of done with any mysterious, villainous rambling from Seph that isn't the lines of the original FFVII.
Darkness. Despair. Destiny. Pretty sure it's all got to be leading up to the one "D" Seph must really want to give Cloud.
That's what I don't like this new take on Sephiroth (granted it's being on for a while after the OG) the whole "I will exist as long as you remember me."
Cloud was never as important to Sephiroth in the OG, was his pride hurting losing to a grunt? Sure. Did he want to break Cloud mentally and have him participate in the reunion? Absolutely. But his main goal was to destroy the world.
But like you said he acts like he is just really wanting some Cloud action.
He survived Sector 7, though, which I believe was GSP's point since they brought up that event's significance in relation to Barret.
Absolutely this. Is it going to be where all the bad guys get their comeuppance whereas the good guys go through hardship, get hurt but magically saved from dying because you know they are good guys.
I saw the final trailer of Barret being stabbed and knew before playing it that he wouldn't die that it was either a illusion Sephiroth was creating to mess with Cloud or some magical healing bs would come into play and don't get me wrong I didn't want Barret to die and I think we knew he would not.
I just think SE are adding scenes for the drama and I think its unnecessary. The OG had sacrifice and there wasn't magical bs to rectify that.
Wol
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the problem with magical bias and introducing random elements is that they can be used to break any rules + deus ex machina when its convenient.
GoldSaucerPoints
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Could not agree more.
Forgot to add about following Jenova's blood, I understand about how they wanted to keep the age range as low as they could and its sixteen plus over here in the UK. However adding human blood I don't think it would have notched it up that high. It was more eerie/scary when following human blood and seeing the massacre. With Jenova's blood I wasn't that bothered apart from that it like moved. That was a bit freaky. However with Jenova it doesn't add to the gravity as you don't feel the loss. No one is bothered that it is Jenova bleeding.
jeronimus
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Both of these changes do definitely serve to undercut the very tangible threat and the visceral fear of the final section of the Shinra building as it happens in the original. Dying because of human cruelty is more interesting than dying because the fate ghost thinks you should. The unfamiliar dread of something insanely powerful suddenly having taken out the people you wanted to fight, of not a living person in sight. I get how it stretches the imagination a bit to leave it unexplained what happened to all the other Shinra officers, but I don't feel like the way the ending plays out here is quite as disorienting as so many moments in the OG deliberately are.
When Cloud freaks out at Aerith after the Temple of the Ancients, or even more so when he raises his sword over her head in the Forgotten Capital, those are moment that shock you, because there's no way of knowing what's going to happen. So - deciding to alter the story to allow for that similar kind of dread is in some regards a good idea, but it's not quite the same: it's an external dread, not for the characters but for the story, that something will be written that completely destroys the tension or changes something too far. I don't think we're there yet, but it's not a dread from being super invested in the story; it's the opposite: the fear that something will completely kill our excitement for a story we love.
Absolutely true, but I'm not inherently against Sephiroth beginning to toy with Cloud earlier on. I don't love the obsession with him, though, that makes him seem like he holds a petty grudge. No, he's a megalomaniac with ambitions of absorbing the lifestream itself, and he realizes that he can manipulate Cloud to help him achieve that goal. In that regard, manipulating the party to defeat the Whispers is in character: they're a new obstacle to reaching his goal. So, fine. We'll accept that for what it is.
Will Sephiroth and Jenova fill clear, different purposes in this story? I think using the Clones to actually look like Sephiroth is a great idea, and a way to have a weak version of him show up... but it's not used sparingly and by the end there HAS to be a face-off with the real Sephiroth. Who has nothing to say at this point in the original story, so here they decided to make him say stuff about fate, and destiny, because it's vague and mysterious.
Saying this because I really hope the "because you are a puppet" moment still works. That's the moment when Cloud actually becomes afraid. Because he knows that something has a hold over him. And they could very well separate Sephiroth and Jenova to the point where it's obvious to Cloud that JENOVA is the one controlling him. That still doesn't change the fact that a Sephiroth who is introduced as someone with a personal grudge is... not necessarily less menacing, but menacing in a different way. It's not longer about a fear of the unknown and the unpredictable. Except it is - it's just the people playing the game who are afraid.
GoldSaucerPoints
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The problem with the clones being used in Sephiroth's image and having the OWA played everytime he shows up and then defeating him it really downplays the threat Sephiroth brings.
I doubt that Jenova is going to fulfill a different role as its practically brain dead. But in the remake who knows? Maybe Sephiroth dies early on and Jenova becomes the final villain. Jenova has always been terrifying and interesting to me a parasitic life form that consumes everything. However I doubt this will happen as Sephiroth brings in the money and fans would be mad.
Sephiroth doesn't comes across as intimidating one bit. They have made him look more intimidating however the scene when the entire group see him in the lab and the first lines he says is to Cloud (after Cloud saying is that really you?) His response is "Don't deny me, embrace me."
And I get its among the lines of him wanting Cloud to join him in the reunion but it just comes across as a cringet ex bf of Cloud's his dialogue is really bad. The whole destiny and fate garbage is just frustrating.
Then there is the problem with Aerith knowing that it was Jenova and Red mentioning that it's a calamity from the skies which is problematic as we are meant to believe that it and Sephiroth are ancients. Clearly not heading in that direction.
Sorry I know I keep ranting about it but I'm genuinely upset. I was loving it even didn't get that bothered with Cloud only seeing Sephiroth and the whisperers didn't annoy me until saving Barret. I'm just feeling really underwhelmed with it all and I'm not a huge gamer over than FF and when I finished FFXV I sold my ps4 and then bought another one just to play the remake and can't help feeling it's a waste.
I doubt that Jenova is going to fulfill a different role as its practically brain dead. But in the remake who knows? Maybe Sephiroth dies early on and Jenova becomes the final villain. Jenova has always been terrifying and interesting to me a parasitic life form that consumes everything. However I doubt this will happen as Sephiroth brings in the money and fans would be mad.
Sephiroth doesn't comes across as intimidating one bit. They have made him look more intimidating however the scene when the entire group see him in the lab and the first lines he says is to Cloud (after Cloud saying is that really you?) His response is "Don't deny me, embrace me."
And I get its among the lines of him wanting Cloud to join him in the reunion but it just comes across as a cringet ex bf of Cloud's his dialogue is really bad. The whole destiny and fate garbage is just frustrating.
Then there is the problem with Aerith knowing that it was Jenova and Red mentioning that it's a calamity from the skies which is problematic as we are meant to believe that it and Sephiroth are ancients. Clearly not heading in that direction.
Sorry I know I keep ranting about it but I'm genuinely upset. I was loving it even didn't get that bothered with Cloud only seeing Sephiroth and the whisperers didn't annoy me until saving Barret. I'm just feeling really underwhelmed with it all and I'm not a huge gamer over than FF and when I finished FFXV I sold my ps4 and then bought another one just to play the remake and can't help feeling it's a waste.
GoldSaucerPoints
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Dark and Divine
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For reference:
Makoeyes987
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First off OWA does not play for every appearance Sephiroth makes. In fact, I'm pretty sure it's saved for the final battle of the game. I'm not sure how you can even make that generalization with the Remake, given the direction it took with it's soundtrack and Sephiroth. I guess you've forgotten "Those Chosen By The Planet" is played for his appearances.
Okay, cool. That's your opinion (skewed as it may be) however you seem to be under the assumption that nemesis villains exhibiting chaotic, mental manipulation and seduction are somehow less intimidating or inherently inferior compared to big-bad-looming-shadow overlord villains. It's precisely through Sephiroth's beckoning darkness and the juxtaposition of the attractive and sensual, with violence and murderous intent that makes him popular. He's intimidating, intriguing, seductive, sadistic, flourished yet dangerous. That's the hook and popularity. He's a nemesis. What you're saying about him is simply not true, given his expansion and development as this type of villain, especially in light of other nemesis types who receive far more characterization and exposure beyond just being forces of evil that move the plot along. Unless you're going to somehow argue Joker, Junko, Hannibal, Darkseid, Dio, Kilgrave or the plethora of nemesis villains that exist in fiction are somehow unable to be intimidating because they exist and have received characterization over their repeated exposure.
In the end, the fact is Sephiroth is a main character. He exists as a person within the narrative, not simply as a big-bad force that exists from the shadows. He is an individual who manipulates and sadistically influences Cloud to further his ends. His assault is not limited to the physical, but the mental as well. Cloud hates yet fears him, at least at this point of the story.
It's not cringy unless you somehow carry a hang up seeing obsession and a bond of hatred and control that can exist between two men. The ultimate rivalry and connection formed through a twisted and intentional dichotomy between the two, good and evil. It's no more "cringy" than any sort of villain/hero duality-relationship that may exist in fiction between examples like Will Graham and Hannibal, Dio and Jonathan/Jotaro, Joker and Batman, Wesker and Chris, etc. If that's all it takes to cringe you out, then well. Sorry you have such a limited tolerance for dark psychological mind games. That's something that exists. It exists between other characters like Hannibal and Clarese, Kilgrave and Jessica Jones, Saber and Gilgamesh, etc. That's what rivaltry and hatred are about. If you don't get it, that's fine but that's the intended portrayal and pretending it's somehow just some silly choice that magically carried over from Kingdom Hearts onward ignores the narrative intent and structural choice.
The Remake isn't the OG in terms of adaption, lay out and characterization. That's something people are apparently still trying to reconcile.
This is no more a "problem" than the decision of having the story play out over multiple games. It's a choice of adaption and style. It's not about being the same or adhering to what the OG did. If you simply are going to measure every event and scene with how it comports to the structured order of the OG then you might as well go back and the play the OG. Because you're simply in a cycle now of never being satisfied because you won't enjoy the changes that have simply manifested over time.
Well, sorry you feel that way. Guess you might want to find something else that adheres to your strict interpretation of what should or shouldn't be, and there's the OG for you. That still exists.
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GoldSaucerPoints
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I think this last paragraph was unnecessary. Telling me that I should stick to the OG simply because I had problems with the remake and do not agree with you. As I said before it was a shock and genuinely loved the relationship of Cloud and Sephiroth on how it began. The whole twists and turns. Finding out Sephiroth and Jenova aren't Ancients. But it's already spelled that out for us.
Still sticking to my opinion of KH Sephiroth and sorry if that offends you or anyone else.
I have not been rude to you or anyone else and would appreciate if you could be corgal. I understand everyone has different opinion but I won't be sticking to the OG and will continue with the remake and nor do I think I have these unnecessary strict rules. They are just my opinion nor am I demanding anyone agrees with me.
Eerie
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As for the Whispers, if the guess that they are dead Cloud, Tifa and Barret from the future is right, then it makes absolute sense that they save Barret. I noted too, in Aerith's child room, it's when Barret suggested that they separated and he'd go off to kill some Shinra grunts that the Whispers appeared. It was very jarring, because Barret did not do that in the OG, so it's like they appeared to prevent him from doing that.
Wol
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Man, reading translations of FFVIIs Ultimania Omega just reminded how great that universe is, and how dense.. just the stuff about Jenova's mimic ability and how it affects the persons with her cells/mako infused + theres already a ton of fuckery with Sephiroth manifesting himself through her or whatever..
fuck yeah lets add ghosts from the future and a time-travelling bastard affecting the present, and maybe even the past.
fuck yeah lets add ghosts from the future and a time-travelling bastard affecting the present, and maybe even the past.
The Twilight Mexican
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That's who Sephiroth has always been, though. Almost everything he did in the original game was for the purpose of messing with Cloud. Had Sephiroth only cared about his plans for dominating all life, he could have just killed Cloud and the others when he had Jenova's body break out of Hojo's lab, grabbed the Black Materia without anyone ever knowing about Meteor, and cast the spell before anyone could have figured out who or what was behind it.
Instead, he freed Cloud and co.; had them follow him all over the world; allowed Cloud to have possession of the Black Materia twice just so he could force him to hand it over the first time, then break him into relinquishing it willingly the second time; tortured Cloud with the anguish of beating up Aerith, and soon thereafter with nearly cutting her in half; and manipulated him into the utter despair of believing he wasn't even a real human being.
Sephiroth outright fucked him. And he didn't have to do any of it for the purposes of his plot to godhood. The guy is the absolute epitome of petty.
Makoeyes987
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And this is so true. Sephiroth has (or gained, he never came off this way while he perceived himself as human) malignant narcissism, which outlines all that he does and perceives about himself. He sees himself above all others and carries within him an unyielding maliciousness that manifests through murderous, sadistic rage. However, it's a cold, calculated and controlled rage that doesn't carry classic emotional outbursts, it's just a smoldering hatred that guides Sephiroth to commit the acts murder that he does.
However, the grievous injury and subsequent defeat he suffered by Cloud hurt him. It hurt him bad. He suffered what's essentially called a narcissistic injury that devastated his own perceived invulnerability and superiority. He felt fear, humiliation and shame.
Sephiroth had never been hurt, pushed, or caught unaware before that night. The night he declared himself a god and the chosen one to rule over the planet, he was made to feel the most vulnerable and human he's ever felt in his whole life. He went from feeling omnipotent and full of pride to being so weak he could only carry his mother's decapitated head with him. He then was subsequently tossed into the Mako Reactor wall, blown up, and he proceeded to tumble into a Mako Pit where he died.
That colossal humiliation would not be a slight a narcissist like Sephiroth would move on from. The entire realignment of his perceived invulnerability that Cloud inflicted onto him, has to be paid back and acknowledged. For Sephiroth to peacefully exist and reconcile his perceived invulnerability with what happened to him that night, Cloud has to suffer. Cloud has to break. Cloud must be made not just be smaller than him, but minuscule and beneath him in every conceivable way. For Sephiroth, that hurt he felt in Nibelheim has to be paid back with interest. Only when that happens will Sephiroth move on from him.
Theozilla
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Hey man, you're free to feel that way about said changes, my main point was to clarify that the Trail of Blood and Wedge's death do still exist in the Remake, albeit modified.
The Sephiroth that is fought at the end is not the Sephiroth who is hibernating in the Northern Crater, it's either the surviving Number #2 Sephiroth copy and/or the transformed Jenova body (or a piece of it), I guessing the latter due to the power displayed in the final boss fight. Those since Sephiroth is possessing all of those entities, I suppose one could say consciousness-wise it's the real Sephiroth, though that would apply to Jenova-Sephiroth in the OG as well too.
Yeah, I was thinking about those too, I wouldn't be surprised if in the future Remake installments the Whispers are used in place of the Nyum-Nyum Cetra "spiritual body remnants". They way Aerith interacted with the Whispers at the beginning of Chapter 17 really reminded me of Aerith's dialogue during the Temple of the Ancients scenario in the OG.
Another theory I heard was that maybe the trio Whispers during the Harbinger boss fight could also potentially be references to Kadaj, Loz, and Yazoo as well. Since those three are a brawler, sword fighter, and gunner too.
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Wol
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https://happygamer.com/final-fantas...something-new-compares-it-to-star-wars-51437/
Oh f*#*, nobody imagined the madmans would go that far though
Oh f*#*, nobody imagined the madmans would go that far though
Elisa Maza
Whomst
> compares it to Star Wars
FFVII extended universe, here we go...
FFVII extended universe, here we go...
Theozilla
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That article is back from January, and I think Kitase's point is more about the cultural impact Star Wars and FFVII had/have on their respective mediums and genre. Not that the approaches to storytelling are going to be the same. Also his main point was about how visual fidelity and effects change people's perceptions of storytelling, which is basic visual storytelling knowledge 101.