SPOILERS FFVII:R Chapter 18 Spoiler Discussion

[oty]

Okay so, you liked the ending? All the time jumbo and the events of the OG stuff

 

[Makoeyes987]

Yeah well, fuck Lex not really, love you Lex I'm so fucking solid right now. I can't wait to see where this is going.

Buuuuuuuuuuuut, the Buster Sword redesign was just a redesign, and not a plot point.

0/10, I owe my friend $5 now. God damn it Square.

Edit: Also, I gotta know @Makoeyes987, which one of us beat it first? It was fun trying to race you.

You beat me

You were a SOLDIER on a mission apparently!

 

[Lex]

Aoife from Eurogamer gives a good breakdown. And seems to have reacted to it in exactly the same way I have.

My opinion of it has now progressed on to "this is betrayal in its worst form".

 

[Odysseus]

You beat me

You were a SOLDIER on a mission apparently!

Yesssssss. It was pretty close though. I really just wanted to know why this thread was 30 pages long, and now I do

Okay so, you liked the ending? All the time jumbo and the events of the OG stuff

I have mixed feelings about certain things, but over all I'm fine with it. I didn't like fighting the big whisper monster very much, but I was expecting something like that as the final boss. This is supposed to be a "full length final fantasy game," so we had to beat up God at some point.

I feel like I should hate Sephiroth showing up at the end, but that fight was so cool and fun I don't even care. He was already shoved into the rest of the game anyway. I wish half his lines weren't advent children quotes though.

I'm also not sure what they were going for with Zack...? Is he alive too?

 

[oty]

We dont know, but probably not? I mean theoretically, they didnt manage to change the past and the singularity ended.

 

[Theozilla]

YOU WERE FUCKING RIGHT @oty ! MY MIND IS THOUROUGLY BLOWN! FUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCK THEY ARE ALIVE! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
I don't even care about any of the other crazy bullshit! Biggs and Jessie are ALIVE!
10000000000000000000/10, I might literally die.
Holy fuck. I need a minute.

Biggs is alive, but Jessie is still likely dead I think. The glove/headband on the desk isn’t enough evidence to say otherwise currently IMO.

 

[Odysseus]

I feel like they included the "The price of freedom is steep" bit as an analogue to our party's fight against literal destiny. Showing him surviving was supposed to show that our characters had overcome "fate" too, and achieved "freedom." I dunno, we'll see.

Biggs is alive, but Jessie is still likely dead I think. The glove/headband on the desk isn’t enough evidence to say otherwise currently IMO.

I dunno. Taking her headband I could see, but her gloves? I figured it was that she was in better shape than Biggs and just wasn't in the room because she was conscious. Guess we'll see.

 

[Odysseus]

Okay, I had my minute, I'm good now.

I power skimmed the previous 33 pages. Seems like there isn't much consensus on what anything means yet, just a lot of speculation. As a massive FF7 fanboy, I feel like I should see the ending of this game as a betrayal of everything FF7 was, but a the same time, I just really don't care. It's new, its exciting, I have no idea where they're planning on going with any of this! That;s something this community hasn't had for a very long time. I can't believe I was so scared of all the discussion happening before I got here; the way things are, we're going to be having heated debates about this thing for years and years to come. My thought process leading up to the release was that "this isn't the original," which I think has opened me up to welcoming new things. The most excited I got during my whole playthrough was when unprecedented stuff happened, like all of chapter 4, or Wedge surviving (until he didn't, goddamn it square) and so on. Seeing old things with a fresh coat of paint was fine, but what I really wanted was to see these characters have new experiences, go through new struggles. The original game is very "been there done that" for me in a lot of ways, so while the fate and capital D Destiny stuff was not my cup of tea, I'm interested to see where they're going with it in future installments.

So yeah, while I understand why a lot of people are upset, I really am willing to embrace whatever weird nonsense square wants to bring. There ain't no gettin' offa this train we on.

 

[Theozilla]

I dunno, Aerith's awareness has steadily moved from mere awareness in a metaphysical sense, to outright familiarity to the situations.

Marlene's reaction to her is what first planted the seeds in my head. Because the fact Aerith shushed her when Marlene was about to ask if she knew her before was... Very interesting. That, and the previous strange scene with Aerith's face being hidden when asked about Sephiroth.

It seems like one of those "hidden in front of your face" type answers.

I am not sure what is up with the Marlene and Aerith scene either, but I don’t think it is meant to indicate that they have “past timeline/loop” memories. I honestly think Aerith is just being made more aware about Planet/spiritual stuff (even if it’s subconsciously, as she apparently doesn’t know what the Whispers are at the start of the game, but Red XIII somehow gets his knowledge in Chapter 17 from her anyways). But we’ll ultimately see what exactly the developers are intending by the next installments and/or potentially in interviews.

 

[Jimmy XH]

They were always going to leave us like this. Confused, guessing and not knowing what was going to happen next.

I've spent a while reading this thread, as well as a couple of reviews and watching the Eurogamer video. General consensus seems to be that we just defeated this new, controversial element of the remake in the form of the whispers and by doing so, have apparently defeated what was holding the original timeline together and in turn making it even more controversial.

So what, are we to believe that we are heading towards alternate timelines now where quite literally anything is on the table? I just don't know how I feel about this. Are Square messing around with us? That's almost a certainty, but that ending just fills you with doubts and to some extent, fear. Not unlike the doubts and fears I had when starting the game, i.e. how faithful is this going to be and are they going to get it right? Was this a gamble that they needed to take?

I'm glad it wasn't SO bad that it didn't spoil my experience of the rest of the game because it was such a great ride. I was on board with just about every element of the story and the tweaks that were made to the way it was told and this ending doesn't change that. What it does change is my outlook on what's coming our way.

Now we've just go to wait however long until they start talking about the next installment, but at least we have Chapters 1-17 to run through in the meantime. Chapter 18 I'll just approach with a wide berth...

I'm so glad Biggs made it though.

 

[Celes777]

I totally understand feeling excited about the new chapters and the twist. After all, we tried so hard to save them back then, didn't we?
How many of us ran around the forgotten capital and tried to find a way around what's gonna happen next?
How many of use fought the CC battle over and over again cuz we wanted Zack to live?

Of course I get why lot of us feel betrayed. I thought so too two pages ago (total humiliation). What I say next is probably terrible, but when I got to sector 6 with Aerith, I just don't care anymore. I just want her to be happy and live a good life......

BUT! No way SE can change their fates so easily
I still believe that they want to trick us to think we can change sth and be like "lol you can't accomplish anything, because you are just a puppet"

 

[oty]

Man, the more I think about this ending, the more I find ways that this can still be explained through sort of the OG's stabilished concepts and notions - aka Lifestream and Sephiroth. What I'm trying to say is, they can still very much integrate the Whispers as part of the mythos of the game and dont introduce any concept of alternate timelines and such. Those are only meant for the player, and for the developer to be able to express through some sort of metalanguage what they want. Sort of how the visions that happen with Cloud. For the character, he doesnt understands them and doesnt mention them. For the players however, they have a lot of meaning.

We can end up just having Bugenhagen explaining how the Arbiters of Fate are "the Planet's guardians to uphold order" and that Sephiroth is disrupting that order, similar to how he ends up doing with the Weapons. The notion of what they saw, that for us is mindblowing, for them, the characters, doesnt hold much ground. Its weird trying to imagine what a character thinks of giving situations, since they dont actually exist per say, but its kind of what Im getting here.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

But at a certain point, @oty , won't someone be like "Waitaminute those floaty fucks showed us the future"? Once the future arrives?

 

[Odysseus]

Did they actually just straight up recycle Advent Children footage for those future visions? I saw you mention that Cloud still has the gold hilt in one of them, Tres, which is probably because they just recycled the old footage.

 

[oty]

I think it depends on how much they want to enter the rabbit hole they made for themselves. If they disscuss about it, which they might not to because plot armor reasons pretty much, they can still present it nonchalantly? Like, "yea you just saw the future children blah blah power of the Planet" stuff like that. Kinda like discussing the Whispers. Still talk about it, but its fairly "vague" about their true significance.

 

[Misterbadguy]

Seeing old things with a fresh coat of paint was fine, but what I really wanted was to see these characters have new experiences, go through new struggles. The original game is very "been there done that" for me in a lot of ways, so while the fate and capital D Destiny stuff was not my cup of tea, I'm interested to see where they're going with it in future installments.

This is generally how I feel about it as well, except you've worded it far better than I could have. I really do love how well-realised the party are in this game, from big ticket stuff like the garden conversation to the combat chatter I adored damn near every second of it. More time with these characters is something I'm already on board with, particularly now that the next part is where the big adventure really kicks in.

 

[Theozilla]

Did they actually just straight up recycle Advent Children footage for those future visions? I saw you mention that Cloud still has the gold hilt in one of them, Tres, which is probably because they just recycled the old footage.

Yes, they are straight up from AC/C, though they are all scenes from like the first five minutes of the movie when OG plot recapping is happening. Though a lot of filters effects were added too.

 

[Makoeyes987]

So I've done it, and seen the ending in all it's entirety.

Spoiler: Loooooong tl;dr real-time thoughts of what I believe unfolded before my eyes through the chapter to the ending

First off, I'm now 100% certain that what was created by the Whispers was a literal connection point between the present and past. The dome of whispers enveloping Midgar simultaneously in front of Cloud and the others in the present, and Zack in the past, is a huge hint of that temporal connection point.

Sephiroth's words, "Those who look with clouded eyes see nothing but shadows... All born of her is bound to her. Should this world be unmade, so too shall her children." leads me to believe that he definitely wanted to "unmake" the "children" of the planet. Hence why the planet screamed out in pain at his words and Sephiroth proclaimed, "Destiny comes." I think this is a double entendre. As in, the Whispers were now going to make a move, and Sephiroth declared himself destiny.

Aerith's explanation of how Sephiroth is beyond the reach of the planet is extremely important. She says clearly that nothing from the planet or its cries reach him; it's attempts roll off like rain on his back. She then says, "He'd tell you that he only cares about the planet. That he'd do everything in his power to protect and preserve it. But this isn't the way it's supposed to be. There's no greater threat to the planet than him. Sephiroth has to be stopped. He has to be. And that's why... I'm asking you to help me. I know that, together, we can do this. But if we do... We'll be changing more than fate itself. If we succeed, if we win, we'll be changing ourselves. I guess... maybe, that's why I hesitated."

And when Aerith reveals that information, the planet screams again, as if another tear has been made into it's intended course. The progression of the world is now off the rails, and the planet is no longer in control.

It's interesting that during the Whisper Harbinger fight, by killing one of the Whispers, that's when memories from the future stream into the heroes. It's as if by weakening the Whispers, the heroes seize control of their fate, and become privy to what lies beyond the veil. Even though they have no context of it.

I think it's clear from Aerith's own words and the groups agreement that they all went into the Singularity with the intention of defeating Sephiroth. That's what Aerith clearly states, however, they all unwittingly cross swords with the Whispers of the Planet. They intended to protect the planet and the Whispers but because of their opposition, they fought them seriously and defeated them. In doing so, the Planet became vulnerable. And Sephiroth literally absorbs the Whispers into him and creates the future. The new destiny for the planet. A giant meteor slamming into Midgar.

From the way the fight went, Whisper Harbinger holds the planet's "future/fate" (or glimpses thereof) within itself, but with it's defeat Sephiroth eats it and... We see Meteor and end of the world. From this point, Sephiroth controls fate, because he absorbed the entirety of the Whispers, just like at the end of OF FFVII when he absorbed the Lifestream.

...And I think this is why his boss track is called "Rebirth One-Winged Angel." Because Sephiroth is seemingly having a "rebirth" of his full power.

Hell, Sephiroth's own words. "Destiny's not to be taken lightly, Cloud." before his fight, implies he's destiny. There is a grandiosity and strength he's eager to test out.

Sephiroth is seemingly trying to end Cloud and the others by using the power of the Arbiters of Fate from the Planet; he tries to throw everything he can from his previous fights (Heartless Angel, Octoslash, Telluric Fury, Heaven's Gate, etc) even going so far as to pin Cloud down and attempt to impale him. However, due to the interjection from outside characters (Aerith, Tifa) he fails. And upon getting pushed to the limit, he pulls out all the stops and literally tries to invoke a Meteor.

This is where he fails, is defeated, and all the Whispers escape from his body as he stumbles in shock. Sephiroth's face holds a scowl of annoyance and anger. Because he clearly did not foresee their combined team work and Aerith's assistance to be such a barrier to his attempt to jump-start the apocalypse. Aerith says confidently, "We can do this. W can change it - make it right." Bear in mind Sephiroth has never fought Aerith before. This element was something he clearly did not intend and was annoyed by.

Because of this, Sephiroth angrily flies up and tries to use the Whispers to attack the party. Aerith summarily repels them, with Sephiroth desperately sending out more.

And then... With all of Cloud's allies repelling the Whispers, Cloud gets an opening, goes in for the kill and seemingly, as the strike lands true, Sephiroth explodes into Whispers, which draw Cloud into a metaphysical tunnel (much like the OG when Cloud's consciousness dove into the lifestream) and seemingly meets Sephiroth in a new location named the Edge of Creation.

"Careful now... That which lies ahead, does not yet exist. Our world will become a part of it... One day. But I will not end. Nor will I have you end."

"This is?"

"The edge of creation."

"Cloud lend me your strength. Let us defy destiny... together."

Cloud's hand starts to shake, as if drawn to Sephiroth's offer however Cloud regains control.

"Never."

Cloud tries with all his might to beat Sephiroth but Sephiroth is only toying with him. Cloud's newfound strength in the heat of this confrontation is amazing but not nearly enough to overpower Sephiroth. Sephiroth ends the confrontation but whispers ominous words.

"Not yet. Seven seconds til the end. Time enough for you, perhaps. But what will you do with it? Let's see."

At first when I heard about this before, I thought it was in reference to what was left of the singularity and perhaps its capability of changing the past, but now.. I don't think it's that at all.

...In fact, I think it's what @Tetsujin theorized before. I think Sephiroth is cruelly hinting at the amount of time it will take before he goes for her life. Sephiroth knows that the Whispers have been either destroyed entirely or weakened to such an extent that they have no hold over what comes next, so it's a twisted dare. Will Cloud, now that he has the capability, knowledge, and awareness, be able to save Aerith now?

From that point on, we see the fallout of the Whispers no longer being present within the timestream. Golden, crystal snow falls from the sky. A homage to the crystal shards that would descend from the sky whenever Etro's Gate was opened. A clear sign that things will go beyond what we know or expect with the subsequent future.

The conversation that takes place next, leads me to believe we're definitely still going forward with the OG's plot line as the skeleton of the narrative.

Cloud: He's still out there.

Barret: I thought you beat him.

Aerith: We can. We will.

Red XIII: If it's to be a hunt, you could use a nose like mine.

Barret: I'm in too! Bastard wants to destroy the the whole planet, does he? An enemy of her's, is an enemy of AVALANCHE.

As the heroes carry on their journey to the future, to face the unknown that awaits them. Zack simultaneously proceeds on his own adventure in the past, to confront the fate that awaits him. Aerith looks hesitant and apprehensive here, as if burdened with anxiety and knowledge.

Aerith: I miss it, the steel sky.

I'm pretty positive the Zack vision is a thematic callback to showcase how these 3 people, Cloud, Aerith, and Zack, are seemingly going their separate ways on their own adventures. Despite being at different points in time. That connection that occurred seemingly allowed them to cross each other. They were briefly linked, due to them being at the same place, at different times. I honestly don't think it's anything more than that, however I can see why others would perceive it otherwise. It's heavily soaked in symbolism and ambiguity. However, I certainly believe Aerith sensed or glimpsed something about Zack, but I don't think it's a literal visual here.

Honestly, this ending was intense and incredible. The game and it's ending felt like an anniversary homage which called back so many aspects that were iconic and loved, as a means of celebrating FFVII and what was to come. I fucking loved it. It's a total mindscrew and leaves a lot of questions as to what's going to happen next. As they say, there ain't no gettin' offa this train we're on. I want to see just what these new elements to the plot of FFVII are.

The ending being an ambiguous and debated topic certainly feels like FFVII, which is why I guess I'm not too bothered by it The unknown and ambiguous conclusion feels familiar. However, we thankfully won't have to wait close to a decade to get an answer. An answer that will excite and comfort some, and inevitable fill others with dread and sighs of exasperation.

I'm just gonna trust this and eagerly await to see how it unfolds. I enjoy these type of stories when done properly, and while time-travel whispers and shit wouldn't have been in my Top 10 wants to Add to FFVII List, I'll give it a shot and see. A complete and total retread of the OG was never what really excited me about the Remake; it was always seeing what new changes or embellishments they would do, now that they have the capacity and desire to go beyond their limits. However, I will say that I do hope they stick to the OG's DNA and not mutate too far away from the core story.

In a comparison that contains neither praise nor aspersion, I will say that the ambiguous symbolism of the ending, which yields so many more questions and new concepts yet to be explained, evokes a feeling of deja vu, towards Kingdom Hearts. This is exactly how I and others felt back in December 2002, when KH Final Mix's ending "Deep Dive- Another Side, Another Story" came out. The same feeling in December 2005 when KHFM's "Birth by Sleep" secret ending came out. And the same feeling in December of 2019 when KH3's Secret Ending "Yozora" was revealed. It's a pattern. One only needs to notice the pattern to see how the symbolism contained therein is usually hidden in plain sight.

I certainly think there's a timeloop or something involved here. How or why, I do not know, but I feel pretty confident that Sephiroth, Aerith and Marlene are holding some awareness of what's to come. How the "Edge of Creation" plays into this, remains to be seen. But it's going to be something they reveal soon. Overall, this ending was incredible if strange and mindscrewy. But, I've loved a lot weirder and I think I can trust the creators to do it right and tell an interesting and engaging story. We'll see

And I just wanna say again, that I think Tetsujin is onto something regarding the meaning of the "Seven seconds" line.

 

[Odysseus]

@Makoeyes987 Jesus, how do you write things like this? I envy you!

Seeing it all explained like that makes the whole ending a lot more palatable, I dig it. I do wonder what you make of the complete deviation from the original game, like Biggs still being alive. Is that to show that, like you said, the planet has gone completely off the rails and lost control?

 

[Makoeyes987]

@Makoeyes987 Jesus, how do you write things like this? I envy you!

Seeing it all explained like that makes the whole ending a lot more palatable, I dig it. I do wonder what you make of the complete deviation from the original game, like Biggs still being alive. Is that to show that, like you said, the planet has gone completely off the rails and lost control?

I'm a nerd

I think Biggs being alive is a hook and a meta way for the writer's to communicate that there are things that will go different than what we expect. However, I also believe it's a ploy to make those who wish for it or believe it, that Aerith can be saved now; a strategy to get their hopes up and seemingly crush them again. Because I do think they'll intend to set up a feint and punch us again with her death. Because now that "destiny" has been destroyed, one would think that Aerith's end can be avoided and prevented.

But it's going to be shown that her death wasn't destiny or anything. It just was that. A death. It exists independently from the Whispers. It's either that, or Aerith will unconsciously guide herself to her own demise and be fine with it upon crossing over. I think the former would be better. Overall though, I don't see this as the writer's way to somehow undo Aerith's death. They feel too strongly over it. They're not above however using the same knife to stab us in the emotional heart again.

 

[Theozilla]

So I've done it, and seen the ending in all it's entirety.

Spoiler: Loooooong tl;dr real-time thoughts of what I believe unfolded before my eyes through the chapter to the ending

First off, I'm now 100% certain that what was created by the Whispers was a literal connection point between the present and past. The dome of whispers enveloping Midgar simultaneously in front of Cloud and the others in the present, and Zack in the past, is a huge hint of that temporal connection point.

Sephiroth's words, "Those who look with clouded eyes see nothing but shadows... All born of her is bound to her. Should this world be unmade, so too shall her children." leads me to believe that he definitely wanted to "unmake" the "children" of the planet. Hence why the planet screamed out in pain at his words and Sephiroth proclaimed, "Destiny comes." I think this is a double entendre. As in, the Whispers were now going to make a move, and Sephiroth declared himself destiny.

Aerith's explanation of how Sephiroth is beyond the reach of the planet is extremely important. She says clearly that nothing from the planet or its cries reach him; it's attempts roll off like rain on his back. She then says, "He'd tell you that he only cares about the planet. That he'd do everything in his power to protect and preserve it. But this isn't the way it's supposed to be. There's no greater threat to the planet than him. Sephiroth has to be stopped. He has to be. And that's why... I'm asking you to help me. I know that, together, we can do this. But if we do... We'll be changing more than fate itself. If we succeed, if we win, we'll be changing ourselves. I guess... maybe, that's why I hesitated."

And when Aerith reveals that information, the planet screams again, as if another tear has been made into it's intended course. The progression of the world is now off the rails, and the planet is no longer in control.

It's interesting that during the Whisper Harbinger fight, by killing one of the Whispers, that's when memories from the future stream into the heroes. It's as if by weakening the Whispers, the heroes seize control of their fate, and become privy to what lies beyond the veil. Even though they have no context of it.

I think it's clear from Aerith's own words and the groups agreement that they all went into the Singularity with the intention of defeating Sephiroth. That's what Aerith clearly states, however, they all unwittingly cross swords with the Whispers of the Planet. They intended to protect the planet and the Whispers but because of their opposition, they fought them seriously and defeated them. In doing so, the Planet became vulnerable. And Sephiroth literally absorbs the Whispers into him and creates the future. The new destiny for the planet. A giant meteor slamming into Midgar.

From the way the fight went, Whisper Harbinger holds the planet's "future/fate" (or glimpses thereof) within itself, but with it's defeat Sephiroth eats it and... We see Meteor and end of the world. From this point, Sephiroth controls fate, because he absorbed the entirety of the Whispers, just like at the end of OF FFVII when he absorbed the Lifestream.

...And I think this is why his boss track is called "Rebirth One-Winged Angel." Because Sephiroth is seemingly having a "rebirth" of his full power.

Hell, Sephiroth's own words. "Destiny's not to be taken lightly, Cloud." before his fight, implies he's destiny. There is a grandiosity and strength he's eager to test out.

Sephiroth is seemingly trying to end Cloud and the others by using the power of the Arbiters of Fate from the Planet; he tries to throw everything he can from his previous fights (Heartless Angel, Octoslash, Telluric Fury, Heaven's Gate, etc) even going so far as to pin Cloud down and attempt to impale him. However, due to the interjection from outside characters (Aerith, Tifa) he fails. And upon getting pushed to the limit, he pulls out all the stops and literally tries to invoke a Meteor.

This is where he fails, is defeated, and all the Whispers escape from his body as he stumbles in shock. Sephiroth's face holds a scowl of annoyance and anger. Because he clearly did not foresee their combined team work and Aerith's assistance to be such a barrier to his attempt to jump-start the apocalypse. Aerith says confidently, "We can do this. W can change it - make it right." Bear in mind Sephiroth has never fought Aerith before. This element was something he clearly did not intend and was annoyed by.

Because of this, Sephiroth angrily flies up and tries to use the Whispers to attack the party. Aerith summarily repels them, with Sephiroth desperately sending out more.

And then... With all of Cloud's allies repelling the Whispers, Cloud gets an opening, goes in for the kill and seemingly, as the strike lands true, Sephiroth explodes into Whispers, which draw Cloud into a metaphysical tunnel (much like the OG when Cloud's consciousness dove into the lifestream) and seemingly meets Sephiroth in a new location named the Edge of Creation.

"Careful now... That which lies ahead, does not yet exist. Our world will become a part of it... One day. But I will not end. Nor will I have you end."

"This is?"

"The edge of creation."

"Cloud lend me your strength. Let us defy destiny... together."

Cloud's hand starts to shake, as if drawn to Sephiroth's offer however Cloud regains control.

"Never."

Cloud tries with all his might to beat Sephiroth but Sephiroth is only toying with him. Cloud's newfound strength in the heat of this confrontation is amazing but not nearly enough to overpower Sephiroth. Sephiroth ends the confrontation but whispers ominous words.

"Not yet. Seven seconds til the end. Time enough for you, perhaps. But what will you do with it? Let's see."

At first when I heard about this before, I thought it was in reference to what was left of the singularity and perhaps its capability of changing the past, but now.. I don't think it's that at all.

...In fact, I think it's what @Tetsujin theorized before. I think Sephiroth is cruelly hinting at the amount of time it will take before he goes for her life. Sephiroth knows that the Whispers have been either destroyed entirely or weakened to such an extent that they have no hold over what comes next, so it's a twisted dare. Will Cloud, now that he has the capability, knowledge, and awareness, be able to save Aerith now?

From that point on, we see the fallout of the Whispers no longer being present within the timestream. Golden, crystal snow falls from the sky. A homage to the crystal shards that would descend from the sky whenever Etro's Gate was opened. A clear sign that things will go beyond what we know or expect with the subsequent future.

The conversation that takes place next, leads me to believe we're definitely still going forward with the OG's plot line as the skeleton of the narrative.

Cloud: He's still out there.

Barret: I thought you beat him.

Aerith: We can. We will.

Red XIII: If it's to be a hunt, you could use a nose like mine.

Barret: I'm in too! Bastard wants to destroy the the whole planet, does he? An enemy of her's, is an enemy of AVALANCHE.

As the heroes carry on their journey to the future, to face the unknown that awaits them. Zack simultaneously proceeds on his own adventure in the past, to confront the fate that awaits him. Aerith looks hesitant and apprehensive here, as if burdened with anxiety and knowledge.

Aerith: I miss it, the steel sky.

I'm pretty positive the Zack vision is a thematic callback to showcase how these 3 people, Cloud, Aerith, and Zack, are seemingly going their separate ways on their own adventures. Despite being at different points in time. That connection that occurred seemingly allowed them to cross each other. They were briefly linked, due to them being at the same place, at different times. I honestly don't think it's anything more than that, however I can see why others would perceive it otherwise. It's heavily soaked in symbolism and ambiguity. However, I certainly believe Aerith sensed or glimpsed something about Zack, but I don't think it's a literal visual here.

Honestly, this ending was intense and incredible. The game and it's ending felt like an anniversary homage which called back so many aspects that were iconic and loved, as a means of celebrating FFVII and what was to come. I fucking loved it. It's a total mindscrew and leaves a lot of questions as to what's going to happen next. As they say, there ain't no gettin' offa this train we're on. I want to see just what these new elements to the plot of FFVII are.

The ending being an ambiguous and debated topic certainly feels like FFVII, which is why I guess I'm not too bothered by it The unknown and ambiguous conclusion feels familiar. However, we thankfully won't have to wait close to a decade to get an answer. An answer that will excite and comfort some, and inevitable fill others with dread and sighs of exasperation.

I'm just gonna trust this and eagerly await to see how it unfolds. I enjoy these type of stories when done properly, and while time-travel whispers and shit wouldn't have been in my Top 10 wants to Add to FFVII List, I'll give it a shot and see. A complete and total retread of the OG was never what really excited me about the Remake; it was always seeing what new changes or embellishments they would do, now that they have the capacity and desire to go beyond their limits. However, I will say that I do hope they stick to the OG's DNA and not mutate too far away from the core story.

In a comparison that contains neither praise nor aspersion, I will say that the ambiguous symbolism of the ending, which yields so many more questions and new concepts yet to be explained, evokes a feeling of deja vu, towards Kingdom Hearts. This is exactly how I and others felt back in December 2002, when KH Final Mix's ending "Deep Dive- Another Side, Another Story" came out. The same feeling in December 2005 when KHFM's "Birth by Sleep" secret ending came out. And the same feeling in December of 2019 when KH3's Secret Ending "Yozora" was revealed. It's a pattern. One only needs to notice the pattern to see how the symbolism contained therein is usually hidden in plain sight.

I certainly think there's a timeloop or something involved here. How or why, I do not know, but I feel pretty confident that Sephiroth, Aerith and Marlene are holding some awareness of what's to come. How the "Edge of Creation" plays into this, remains to be seen. But it's going to be something they reveal soon. Overall, this ending was incredible if strange and mindscrewy. But, I've loved a lot weirder and I think I can trust the creators to do it right and tell an interesting and engaging story. We'll see

And I just wanna say again, that I think Tetsujin is onto something regarding the meaning of the "Seven seconds" line.

Great analysis Mako, aside from the timeloop theory/assertion (I can accept the “or something” though), I think you really nailed the intended meaning of the ending.

 

[oty]

Yeah thats something I thought too. The developers want, even the old players, to feel the gut wrenching knife of Aerith's death again. Making you think this time might be different, completely plays itself into that notion.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Yeah thats something I thought too. The developers want, even the old players, to feel the gut wrenching knife of Aerith's death again. Making you think this time might be different, completely plays itself into that notion.

That would only work if the old players actually wanted her to survive, though. They may have drastically mis-assessed what returning fans were looking for on that count, resulting in a sigh of relief rather than being heartbroken when the time comes.

 

[Misterbadguy]

That would only work if the old players actually wanted her to survive, though. They may have drastically mis-assessed what returning fans were looking for on that count, resulting in a sigh of relief rather than being heartbroken when the time comes.

I suppose that's what make the current situation so interesting. We're quite literally in the realm of the unknown, noone knows what to expect or when to expect it now (for better or worse). By that measure it's down to how much the writers can endear her as a character to players, before she's taken away from them - if that still happens at all. I certainly liked her more in this than in OG, so that at least is encouraging.

 

[Lord Noctis]

Can I tell you I think some folks are reading way to much into this ending. All the stuff I'm seeing about time travel, alternate realities, stealth sequel stuff, it all feels like a case of over analyzing something.

Near as I can tell the plot is as simple as this. Sephiroth fell into the lifestream, absorbed it's knowledge, and looked at the Black Materia and was all like "I can work with this." But then he realised that fate itself was an actual mechanism of the planet. Upon this revelation he cracked open a cold one and said "Ya know, if I hijack that motherfucker my whole plan is gonna involve way fewer risks and take a lot less time." Then lo and behold he tricks the party into weakening the whispers, absorbs the whispers thus hijacking fate, and promptly loses that power again thanks to Cloud and the others. With that done we're all set for Sephiroth, and the story in general to proceed as usual going forward with any differences being closer to what we saw during the first 16 chapters in terms of how different things are. The main story beats are all still coming, and Zack is still dead

Granted, it's a bit confusing, and I only fully formed this idea after reading Mako's excellent post up above, but I still think it's all a lot less convoluted than it's being made out as.