SPOILERS FFVII:R Chapter 18 Spoiler Discussion

[snatchr]

However, that majority of the game is treading the same road of the OG, in terms of it's narrative.

The majority of the game has that because of plot protecting ghosts, who are explicitly dealt with for a very obvious reason. If they weren't around for this first game Cloud wouldn't even be in Midgar anymore. Do people honestly think things will go at all the way we remember? Why would they? They spend much of this one showing us that the characters are only kept on their path by the whispers and any minor action (Aerith nearly falling in the church, Hojo spilling the beans too early, the crew falling into deepground etc) would have an enormous butterfly effect if they weren't kept on the rails.

The partys goal is two-fold now. Stop the bad guy in the black coat, as in the OG, but also make sure the things they saw don't come to pass. Nothing is standing in the way of that now. The strings are cut.

 

[Makoeyes987]

The majority of the game has that because of plot protecting ghosts, who are explicitly dealt with for a very obvious reason. If they weren't around for this first game Cloud wouldn't even be in Midgar anymore. Do people honestly think things will go at all the way we remember? Why would they? They spend much of this one showing us that the characters are only kept on their path by the whispers and any minor action (Aerith nearly falling in the church, Hojo spilling the beans too early, the crew falling into deepground etc) would have an enormous butterfly effect if they weren't kept on the rails.

The partys goal is two-fold now. Stop the bad guy in the black coat, as in the OG, but also make sure the things they saw don't come to pass. Nothing is standing in the way of that now. The strings are cut.

You're operating as if those plot protecting ghosts organically exist seperately as some counterforce to the intention of the writer's, and not as an equal inhabitant of the narrative. They were there by design. The game adhered to the plot of the OG, regardless of what method or mechanism actualized that outcome.

That desire to express the OG's plot, albeit in a different way, remains the same, and the writers have said this over and over. The Arbiters of Fate no longer being present within the narrative doesn't change that intention or desire to retell the story in their own way. For all we know, the writers could simply elect to utilize some other new force or contrivance to realize this goal.

With everything in mind, and Nomura's historic trait of being purposefully deceptive, I have no idea why anyone would take an implied message from the end at face value with Nomura as director, and partly Nojima as writer. For all the reasons one might believe that this ending is loudly signaling a radical departure from the original game's plot, it's equally (if not more) likely it's a purposeful misdirection as simply shown by Nomura's track record for over a decade.

 

[Odysseus]

Wedge's survival was an early hint that things would't be going quite how we remembered, and while He's ultimately dealt with later, Biggs also surviving was pretty much a promise from the developers to us that this story won't be the one we remember going forward. I don't think it will be nearly as different as some of you are so afraid of, but I also don't think it will be nearly as in line with the original as some of you are thinking either. It'll certainly diverge even more than this first entry did, at least.

Frankly, I'm open to the rest of the plot getting a severe overhaul. The post-Midgar original had a very disjointed feeling to it that I really don't think would lend itself to a modern game. I'm sure a lot of familiar beats will be there, almost certain part 2 opens with a faithful rendition of Niblehiem, but I wouldn't be surprised if the next part is given some huge new plot line that gives the whole thing a framing device. Things will happen that didn't before, new characters will come and go, the party will face struggles that they never did originally... etc. It'll be new. After giving it some though, I want it to be new. I've played FFVII, now I want to play FFVII: REMAKE, whatever that entails. The best parts of this game (ending aside) was when completely new things happened. Not knowing where things are going next is exciting for me. I know a lot of you feel like you were promised a faithful remake, and that's a fair thing to think, but I want to see where they're going with this.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

The Remake's ending simply makes it explicitly clear that from this point forward, the same framework of Part 1 will continue for the rest of the project.

XD

There's a lot of your fellow fans eager to know how to get this ending, if you know how:

 

[snatchr]

Nomuras track record of hysterically convoluted junk scripting?

Why does this feel like we're back in the demo datamining. "Totally fake nonsense cooked up by trolls, have faith!"

 

[Makoeyes987]

Nomuras track record of hysterically convoluted junk scripting?

Why does this feel like we're back in the demo datamining. "Totally fake nonsense cooked up by trolls, have faith!"

I mean, that's one way of putting it

However if every KH Secret Ending, plot twist and Nomura's penchant for deliberately hiding what is apparent in plain sight is any indication... Outright acceptance of what is shown on the surface is usually not the answer.

XD

There's a lot of your fellow fans eager to know how to get this ending, if you know how:

I mean. That'd be a pretty fucked up and hilarious outcome if the narrative of Part 2 and beyond essentially parroted what that gif says.

I just don't see how taking it all at face value now is the most meta and contextual answer here.

I don't think it will be nearly as different as some of you are so afraid of, but I also don't think it will be nearly as in line with the original as some of you are thinking either. It'll certainly diverge even more than this first entry did, at least.

That's the balancing act they're playing here and it's clear they want to do more than simply recycle the same events and meet player expectations with no creative play aside new graphics, voice acting, and gameplay mechanics. They won't settle for just a simple retelling of the same story within a new medium.

They're purposefully messing with the audience's minds by injecting ambiguity and uncertainty within the direction of the plot.

Now everyone should ask themselves, which direction of storytelling would benefit more from that uncertainty?

Playing it straight and going just completely 180 in terms of the direction of the OG's story?

Or adhering to the overall story and teasing new events and changes, but leaving the most memorable scenes so that when they happen again, they're experienced fully despite having been known?

 

[Lex]

Hard Mode playthrough starting now

 

[Eerie]

Holy hell, you're redoing the entire playthrough in hardmode? Hats off, you crazy guy. I'm about to drop to bed though, so maybe I'll rewatch!

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Nomura can be very crafty and is a master at purposeful misdirection. Kingdom Hearts thrives off that shit. The secret ending "Birth By Sleep" spawned a year of people theorizing Roxas was never a nobody, or he would somehow escape Sora's heart and live a life to become a Keyblade Knight, and other ideas because Nomura created a character with the exact same face as another character, in an entirely different game. It was literally the "Zack is alive!!" shit before today. Ventus having Roxas face was a purposeful design decision to throw the audience for a loop, and it ended with the answer being "same face, different boy."

That's absurd yet that happened.

Forgot to reply to this. The explanation for this was not "same face, different boy." Not even close to a little bit quite that simple. XD

It was the kind of wacky metaphysical shenanigans that only could have come out of "Kingdom Hearts." With two other boys who share a face, and one boy's heart inside another's, and Heartless, and Nobodies, and time travel, and an evil old wizard, and --

Okay, no, you're right, this does sound like the same situation.

 

[Misterbadguy]

We didn't get Nomura at full KH power in the end of 7R; we would've been seeing Sephiroth wearing a blindfold jumping off buildings and Cait Sith in a black coat if we did.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Forgot to reply to this. The explanation for this was not "same face, different boy." Not even close to a little bit quite that simple. XD

It was the kind of wacky metaphysical shenanigans that only could have come out of "Kingdom Hearts." With two other boys who share a face, and one boy's heart inside another's, and Heartless, and Nobodies, and time travel, and an evil old wizard, and --

Okay, no, you're right, this does sound like the same situation.

Exactly. It's what it boils down to xDDDD

I just skipped the convoluted explanation of how such a bizarre outcome would justify itself.

A mysterious new character using two of Sora's keyblades out of nowhere and clashing with Riku in an unknown city at night made people believe Kingdom Hearts was going to move in a radical new direction ]with a brand new protagonist, given the setting and appearance of the characters in "Another Side, Another Story."

And we know how that turned out.

 

[LNK]

Alright, prior to reading through the comments, I thought the fates were just used to make sure main things from the OG still happened. Not because of a new timeline or alternate universe prevention or anything of that nature though. It was for us OG fans. It was their way to essentially tell the same core story just in a different way. Which is pretty much what SE said they would do.

The only real difference in the story I saw was Biggs surviving. To me, while I'd rather he hadnt, doesn't really change the overall story.

I still don't think Zack is alive. While he'll be in part 2, I think it'll just be like the OG. I remember SE saying that they would keep the main events while telling them in new ways. Also, the compilation lore is not canon to the remake, so they will use it how they please. But, Cloud becoming who he is, is all because of his arc with Zack. I just don't see them changing that.

While some people made good points about an AU of Zack being alive and maybe Aerith, I really don't see that happening. That would totally go against what SE said on not changing main things from the OG. I think we'll get the same base story, just told in a new way (just like we did in this game)

And I really think the mural that Aerith did in her room is a prelude of what we'll see in the future games.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

The thing is, though, I don't really see how adding the Whispers give us the story "in a new way". It's the same story, but now with added meaningless complications.

It seems that in every iteration of FFVII a few things have to happen
1. - a beloved character needs to die
2. - the hero needs to be whisked off temporarily to an alternate dimension
3. - there has to be a Jenova boss fight
4. - there has to be a culminating boss of all bosses fight with Sephiroth

None of the things happened in the Midgar portion of the OG, so they had to figure out a way to introduce them. Obviously they couldn't kill off Aerith (they have to save her for later), so they killed off Barret, but Barret can't die, so they had to bring him back to life. This scene on its own is a travesty of everything the OG was about.

It's a mystery to me why they chose to fulfil element No. 1 by killing Barret, when any one of Jessie, Biggs or Wedge could have served as a the human sacrifice. I suppose it's because their deaths were expected, while Barret's was not.

Anway, my point is, they could have killed Barret, and then let us revive him with a phoenix down. He could have simply been mostly dead instead of all dead.* That would have been a good psych. They could have included 2, 3 and 4 without any further explanation except "this is cool and we know you want it", and nobody would have complained. The Whisper device was unnecessary.

The Whispers don't really seem to fit in with the established lore of planet life. That lore is already quite rich, so I would have preferred to see them evolve something out of what they already had than add in something new. As far as I can recall, in the Remake the only person who claims to be able to hear the planet is.... Barret. Aerith sees the Whispers, talks to flowers, and knows waaay more than she ought. It would be, to borrow a phrase, 'elegant and organic' if the Whispers were either emanations of the Lifestream or some form of Weapon, but I didn't get the impression that they were intended to be either.

I just don't understand the point of adding a bewildering element like the Whispers to a plot that was never really going to go wildly off track in the first place. They don't symbolise anything interesting, they don't add any layer of significance or meaning. Figuring out exactly what they're doing in this game made me feel like those archaeologists who dedicate their life to deciphering an ancient script, hoping it will reveal mystical writings, only to learn that the clay tablets in their hands are the lists of the contents of a store cupboard.

* After all, people have survived Sephiroth's stabby attacks before.

 

[Makoeyes987]

The thing is, though, I don't really see how adding the Whispers give us the story "in a new way". It's the same story, but now with added meaningless complications.

One man's meaningless complications is another's meta commentary and creative discourse

It seems that in every iteration of FFVII a few things have to happen
1. - a beloved character needs to die
2. - the hero needs to be whisked off temporarily to an alternate dimension
3. - there has to be a Jenova boss fight
4. - there has to be a culminating boss of all bosses fight with Sephiroth

None of the things happened in the Midgar portion of the OG, so they had to figure out a way to introduce them. Obviously they couldn't kill off Aerith (they have to save her for later), so they killed off Barret, but Barret can't die, so they had to bring him back to life. This scene on its own is a travesty of everything the OG was about.

It's a mystery to me why they chose to fulfil element No. 1 by killing Barret, when any one of Jessie, Biggs or Wedge could have served as a the human sacrifice. I suppose it's because their deaths were expected, while Barret's was not.

Barret wasn't seriously killed off, and I doubt anyone took his supposed death at face value. They would never prematurely kill off one of the main characters who has a significant role to play in the entirety of the FFVII; it would be nonsensical. It was a demonstration of the Whispers' power and fealty to keeping the narrative on the course it belonged. It wasn't even played straight, seeing as how the Whispers immediately moved to heal him back. That's far from a travesty, given FFVII had fake out deaths happen 2 times on it's own. 3 if you count Rufus Shinra himself.

Anway, my point is, they could have killed Barret, and then let us revive him with a phoenix down. He could have simply been mostly dead instead of all dead.* That would have been a good psych. They could have included 2, 3 and 4 without any further explanation except "this is cool and we know you want it", and nobody would have complained. The Whisper device was unnecessary.

Phoenix Down don't revive the dead. They bring someone back from unconsciousness. If someone dies, they die. A phoenix down is simply used to prevent someone from dying in-combat due to being unconscious and defenseless.

The Whispers don't really seem to fit in with the established lore of planet life. That lore is already quite rich, so I would have preferred to see them evolve something out of what they already had than add in something new. As far as I can recall, in the Remake the only person who claims to be able to hear the planet is.... Barret. Aerith sees the Whispers, talks to flowers, and knows waaay more than she ought. It would be, to borrow a phrase, 'elegant and organic' if the Whispers were either emanations of the Lifestream or some form of Weapon, but I didn't get the impression that they were intended to be either.

You can't say if it fits in the lore or not, seeing as how we haven't even been given a solid explanation of their placement within said lore. And honestly, time travel or time manipulation would not be uncharted waters for the concept of spirit energy. Memories and knowledge transcend time through spirit energy, and tracing those memories can allow some to reach the source of all memories and all life. That's a concept straight from Sakaguchi's own fantasy mythology which served as the foundation of FFVII, and FFIX. FFVII taking it to it's next logical leap in their expansion of the story may be surprising but it's not out of bounds. Not if you go by the original writers themselves.

And considering Aerith is the last remaining Cetra in the world, she would know a lot by design. As the last Cetra, she certainly does speak to the planet, and says so at the final chapter of the game. Given that the planet would have only one single person to communicate to, it would be very odd if she didn't hear it or hold awareness of it's mechanics.

I just don't understand the point of adding a bewildering element like the Whispers to a plot that was never really going to go wildly off track in the first place. They don't symbolise anything interesting, they don't add any layer of significance or meaning. Figuring out exactly what they're doing in this game made me feel like those archaeologists who dedicate their life to deciphering an ancient script, hoping it will reveal mystical writings, only to learn that the clay tablets in their hands are the lists of the contents of a store cupboard.

The message is very clear. They're teasing the stifling expectations and boundaries of the 1997 game within this Remake. They're saying that total adherence to the original that was made and modeled within the boundaries of game development and play style of 1997, is a destiny that no longer will control the progression or journey of this new adaption of FFVII. It's two-fold metaphor, and it shows the writers are beyond simply playing it safe and telling the exact same story twice. Creativity and freedom will not be subsumed by destiny. How much will be changed or left the same, remains to be seen, however I don't believe it will be a completely radical departure from the original game. Given their commentary on how they would tackle a Remake and how they feel certain events hold meaning to them. If you look at their interviews, none of this is that big of a surprise. The whole ending was an exercise of teasing expectations and framing their next installment as a game with unknown potential. Something that can't just be easily predicted; which gives the series more life than being a simple copy.

It would've been so easy for a company or group of writers to regurgitate a generation's nostalgia through a straight 1:1 remake that was predictable and safe. However, they obviously carry higher ambitions and a desire to express their creativity in a meaningful and enjoyable way.

 

[crazyrabbits23]

The thing is, though, I don't really see how adding the Whispers give us the story "in a new way". It's the same story, but now with added meaningless complications.

I doubt very much that there was ever a plan to have a true, faithful 1:1 remake. Frankly, if that's the route they'd chosen, I probably would have stuck to playing the OG. I mentioned in a previous post that the fact that this game was potentially going to be controversial was telegraphed from day one with the teaser ("It may bring joy... it may bring fear... but let us embrace whatever it becomes.")

None of the things happened in the Midgar portion of the OG, so they had to figure out a way to introduce them. Obviously they couldn't kill off Aerith (they have to save her for later), so they killed off Barret, but Barret can't die, so they had to bring him back to life. This scene on its own is a travesty of everything the OG was about.

Barrett was the original choice for the "shocking character death" in the early scripts of the OG, before Aerith. The scene was an apparent nod to that, best as I can tell.

It's a mystery to me why they chose to fulfil element No. 1 by killing Barret, when any one of Jessie, Biggs or Wedge could have served as a the human sacrifice. I suppose it's because their deaths were expected, while Barret's was not.

I have more of a problem with the fact that they weaseled out of killing off some of the AVALANCHE members (potentially all of them, depending on what's next with Biggs and Jessie) than I am about the Whispers screwing around to ensure a character lives, after they've already established a power set. The OG AVALANCHE team's deaths were impactful because they were so sudden, happened with next-to-no fanfare and completely fit in with the oppressive world of Midgar in the original. Besides Jessie, I felt the "death" scenes (and subsequent fakeouts) were way too drawn out and telegraphed, whereas Barret's "death" was certainly a surprise, even if it was reversed a few moments later.

They could have included 2, 3 and 4 without any further explanation except "this is cool and we know you want it", and nobody would have complained.

There's nothing to say they won't do so in future parts. Considering Midgar was a location that (if you were halfway-decent with the game) you could get through in three hours or less, I'm more than satisfied with the content on display.

I just don't understand the point of adding a bewildering element like the Whispers to a plot that was never really going to go wildly off track in the first place. They don't symbolise anything interesting, they don't add any layer of significance or meaning.

The easiest explanation is that they're a stand-in for the OG audience. They show up after an alt-universe version of Sephiroth shows up, and they desperately try to keep the plot from going the rails. By the time of the final battle, Sephiroth has convinced the team that what they know as a potential future (the OG) is the "bad timeline" and that they need to stop it. Whatever happens next could be entirely new territory. It's also classic Nomura insanity.

 

[Wol]

XD

There's a lot of your fellow fans eager to know how to get this ending, if you know how:

Lmfao.

 

[Scribe]

Is anyone Considering the Whisper Harbinger being the player of the OG controlling the original versions of the characters in which the Remake player is forced to defeat in order to defy a destined plot? Every time a whisper is killed the heart glows on the Harbinger. We fought our own nostalgia.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Yes, I am considering it and I really like it as an explanation, Scribe. Yours is the kind of analysis I am looking for.

CrazyRabbit, I'm aware Barret was the original choice for killed-off character and that's probably why he got 'killed' in the Remake. Also, for me, he was the soul of this Remake, more so even than Aerith, who I loved, but the changes to her characterisation bugged me. I've said it before: if they make her a willing sacrifice who forsees her own death - Jesus-Aerith - it will be a travesty. The original Aerith wasn't like that.

Mako, if the Whispers are all defeated and gone now, presumably we will never get a satisfactory explanation of how they fit into the established ecology of the planet. Red and Aerith know so much, surely they could have given us a one-liner such as "they are defensive mechanisms emanated by the Lifestream during times of heightened stress for the Planet" or something.

Plus, in the OG, while it's true Aerith knew more than she was letting on, there was plenty she didn't know - like Jenova being an alien and Sephiroth being the real threat to the planet. She went with the party in order to discover what it truly means to be a Cetra, and she died in ignorance of the full truth of what they were facing. Seems like in this game, she already knows exactly what it means to be a Cetra.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Is anyone Considering the Whisper Harbinger being the player of the OG controlling the original versions of the characters in which the Remake player is forced to defeat in order to defy a destined plot? Every time a whisper is killed the heart glows on the Harbinger. We fought our own nostalgia.

Aside from that being contradicted entirely by the game itself, Whisper Viridi, Rubrum and Corceo do not match the main characters at all.

Rubrum is left handed and fights with a single-handed blade. Cloud is explicitly right handed and uses a two-handed great-sword.

Corceo uses guns in each hand. Barret obviously does not.

And Viridi's fists look more like claws or something. Not just barehanded fists.

If anything, they resemble the Remnants of Sehpiroth more than anyone else, but that itself makes no sense because the Whispers are agents of the planet. Agents of the Lifestream. So what they are, has yet to be fully elucidated.

CrazyRabbit, I'm aware Barret was the original choice for killed-off character and that's probably why he got 'killed' in the Remake. Also, for me, he was the soul of this Remake, more so even than Aerith, who I loved, but the changes to her characterisation bugged me. I've said it before: if they make her a willing sacrifice who forsees her own death - Jesus-Aerith - it will be a travesty. The original Aerith wasn't like that.

This isn't the original either

I'm not sure how having Aerith carry agency over her death, or at least face it's possibility courageously robs any of the tragedy or emotion from the scene. Given how the moment is right up there with Vader being Luke's father and Norman Bates being his own Mother, it being a "surprise" is hardly the only reason it carries meaning or emotional resonance.

Mako, if the Whispers are all defeated and gone now, presumably we will never get a satisfactory explanation of how they fit into the established ecology of the planet. Red and Aerith know so much, surely they could have given us a one-liner such as "they are defensive mechanisms emanated by the Lifestream during times of heightened stress for the Planet" or something.

The Ultimania comes out in 2 weeks, so there will be some sort of deeper answer within it.

And Red XIII actually did say that. In chapter 16 Red explains that the Whispers, or Arbiters of Destiny are entities that prevent those from defying the fate as dictated by the planet, through the current which controls all life on the planet. The Planet controls it's own direction and fate, and opposes those who try to thwart it.

Plus, in the OG, while it's true Aerith knew more than she was letting on, there was plenty she didn't know - like Jenova being an alien and Sephiroth being the real threat to the planet. She went with the party in order to discover what it truly means to be a Cetra, and she died in ignorance of the full truth of what they were facing. Seems like in this game, she already knows exactly what it means to be a Cetra.

Considering Ifalna knew what Jenova was, and they've gone into more elaboration of Aerith's time with her mother while imprisoned within Shinra, it makes a lot more sense for Aerith to have some knowledge of Jenova as a Cetran. Seeing as how Jenova is the literal cause of the extinction of their entire race. Aerith certainly didn't die in ignorance given she had been to the Temple of the Ancients back then. In the Remake, she may not know all about the Cetra but seeing as she is a Cetra who communicates with the planet itself, she would be privy to a lot of knowledge. Aerith has spoken to the planet since being a young child. She's the reason the house she lives in, and the church she visits is able to grow flowers, after all.

 

[Theozilla]

Yes, I am considering it and I really like it as an explanation, Scribe. Yours is the kind of analysis I am looking for.

CrazyRabbit, I'm aware Barret was the original choice for killed-off character and that's probably why he got 'killed' in the Remake. Also, for me, he was the soul of this Remake, more so even than Aerith, who I loved, but the changes to her characterisation bugged me. I've said it before: if they make her a willing sacrifice who forsees her own death - Jesus-Aerith - it will be a travesty. The original Aerith wasn't like that.

Aerith being foreseeing/being aware of her death is definitely something I would not want to see in the Remake, and I'll even admit to being a little anxious about that possibility. However, ultimately I am confident/have faith the Remake won't go that route, partially because of how little Cloud and other parry members are able to comprehend the brief future visions they see in the Remake, but largely because reading the numerous interviews from the developers, Kitase, Nomura, and Nojima in particular, about how important Aerith's death was/is for them and the story, particularly the random realness of it, that makes me able to have faith they won't do a "Jesus-Aerith" death in the Remake.

Mako, if the Whispers are all defeated and gone now, presumably we will never get a satisfactory explanation of how they fit into the established ecology of the planet. Red and Aerith know so much, surely they could have given us a one-liner such as "they are defensive mechanisms emanated by the Lifestream during times of heightened stress for the Planet" or something.

I mean they do partially give an explanation about the Whispers how they relate to the Planet, they are literally described as the "will of the planet", and later as "voices of the planet/lifestream screaming" (specifically in the context of reacting to Sephiroth). Now, whether those limited explanations are satisfactory for you is an entirely different matter. But there was some planet ecology explanation in the Remake.

Plus, in the OG, while it's true Aerith knew more than she was letting on, there was plenty she didn't know - like Jenova being an alien and Sephiroth being the real threat to the planet. She went with the party in order to discover what it truly means to be a Cetra, and she died in ignorance of the full truth of what they were facing. Seems like in this game, she already knows exactly what it means to be a Cetra.

Aerith in the OG had a basic understanding of what Cetra were, she didn't have zero knowledge as Ifalna still raised Aerith for 7-8 years before her death. She was more emotionally in denial of being a Cetra, than having zero knowledge about them.
And maybe I am remembering wrong, but I thought Aerith had vague knowledge of Jenova being an alien? Especially since Ifalna told Gast about Jenova being an alien, I would think Aerith would know that as well.

 

[Scribe]

Aside from that being contradicted entirely by the game itself, Whisper Viridi, Rubrum and Corceo do not match the main characters at all.

Party of three controlled by another entity? It’s not that much of a reach.

 

[Roger]

Aerith being foreseeing/being aware of her death is definitely something I would not want to see in the Remake, and I'll even admit to being a little anxious about that possibility. However, ultimately I am confident/have faith the Remake won't go that route, partially because of how little Cloud and other parry members are able to comprehend the brief future visions they see in the Remake, but largely because reading the numerous interviews from the developers, Kitase, Nomura, and Nojima in particular, about how important Aerith's death was/is for them and the story, particularly the random realness of it, that makes me able to have faith they won't do a "Jesus-Aerith" death in the Remake.

The whole Whispers thing aside, Wedge already talks to Aerith about feelings of being due for a reckoning as one doomed by canon character to another. I can't imagine these writers are gonna send of Aerith to the Forgotten City without a sense that she won't be coming back.

I mean they do partially give an explanation about the Whispers how they relate to the Planet, they are literally described as the "will of the planet", and later as "voices of the planet/lifestream screaming" (specifically in the context of reacting to Sephiroth). Now, whether those limited explanations are satisfactory for you is an entirely different matter. But there was some planet ecology explanation in the Remake.


Aerith in the OG had a basic understanding of what Cetra were, she didn't have zero knowledge as Ifalna still raised Aerith for 7-8 years before her death. She was more emotionally in denial of being a Cetra, than having zero knowledge about them.
And maybe I am remembering wrong, but I thought Aerith had vague knowledge of Jenova being an alien? Especially since Ifalna told Gast about Jenova being an alien, I would think Aerith would know that as well.

Neither Aerith, nor Red XIII, had any notion of what a Jenova is until Cloud gave his story. Really the Nibelheim flashback should now come after Aerith and Red XIII own stories about why Sephiroth and Jenova are bad news and have to be stopped, if Cloud even still feels inclined he should share his story at all. What Cloud knows about Sephiroth is no longer the reason they are going after Sephiroth, full stop.

 

[youffie]

Plus, in the OG, while it's true Aerith knew more than she was letting on, there was plenty she didn't know - like Jenova being an alien and Sephiroth being the real threat to the planet. She went with the party in order to discover what it truly means to be a Cetra, and she died in ignorance of the full truth of what they were facing. Seems like in this game, she already knows exactly what it means to be a Cetra.

I was wondering about this exactly. I loved Aerith, but there were all these little changes that, while okay for now, might prove problematic for the character in the long run (assuming the next games follow the basic concepts, themes and general arcs of the original). Yes, she is privy to a lot of knowledge, but in the OG her grasp on that knowledge is very fragmented and distorted, and her entire arc is understanding what being a Cetra is, and what being a Cetra means to her. FFVII is a journey of self-discovery for many of its characters; one of the reasons Aerith starts that journey is that Sephiroth reportedly thinks he's an Ancient, and she has no idea what to make of it and what that means for her as well. Bear in mind that the first thing that Sephiroth does in the OG is killing President Shinra, someone we've been told is the absolute villain of this world. Of course she's confused, and entangling that confusion was part of the fun. She might have an inkling of what Jenova was conceptually, but Jenova was not really a name that meant a whole lot to Ifalna, though I think she knew about the experiments; she knew her primarily as the Calamity from the Sky, and that's the extent I can see her telling Aerith about it.

If Aerith starts that journey knowing way too many things like she seems to do, I'm afraid that journey might be less interesting. If she already knows what Jenova is, then she can immediately call Sephiorth's bullshit when Cloud retells his story. If she already knows she's going to die, like many have been assuming, that information colors so many of the things she says in a light that is very different from the original game. I remember this little part in the sewers where she cheers Tifa up by telling her to think of something that she wants to do after all that is over and I almost cried, because that was such a clear callback to one of my favorite lines from the original game:

I think she didn't think she would die at all, but that she planned on coming back all along. She always used to talk about the 'Next time'. She talked about the future more than any of us...
Although she never talked about it to us she must've had a rough life... I think Aeris looked forward to tomorrow and the future more than anyone... ...she must've had many many dreams......

But if this Aerith knows, she isn't really looking forward to tomorrow. She's just appreciating every moment she gets, because she knows that her time is going to end very soon.

Now, I'm not saying that they haven't thought about all that stuff and I think that they might do something about it that I'm not expecting; the characterization of the main characters was generally top notch, so I have reason to say they won't let us down on that. I just hope Aerith's characterization doesn't end up drawing the short straw because they need someone to help them implement all these new elements, and Aerith and Sephiroth are inherently the best candidates for the job.

 

[Theozilla]

The whole Whispers thing aside, Wedge already talks to Aerith about feelings of being due for a reckoning as one doomed by canon character to another. I can't imagine these writers are gonna send of Aerith to the Forgotten City without a sense that she won't be coming back.

There’s a difference between heavy handed foreshadowing with a large slathering of meta winking to the audience, and characters actually being consciously aware of their future fates/deaths though. I already stated why, despite some anxieties, I have faith the developers won’t make Aerith’s death a “Jesus-Death”, but if the developers own past statements aren’t enough for you, then I am certainly not going to be able to convince you to have faith/confidence.

Neither Aerith, nor Red XIII, had any notion of what a Jenova is until Cloud gave his story. Really the Nibelheim flashback should now come after Aerith and Red XIII own stories about why Sephiroth and Jenova are bad news and have to be stopped, if Cloud even still feels inclined he should share his story at all. What Cloud knows about Sephiroth is no longer the reason they are going after Sephiroth, full stop.

Well, if I am truly misremembering the OG, this is a Remake change I do think is for the better. As I just don’t think Ifalna wouldn’t have told Aerith the same important things she told Gast in the OG. As for Red XIII he just has knowledge in the Remake because of his weird mind-meld with Aerith in Chapter 16.
Cloud’s backstory is still important though, as it gives important explanation to how Sephiroth is exactly connected to Jenova, as Aerith only has knowledge of Jenova’s origins in the Remake and only a vague notion of Sephiroth being “wrong”, she doesn’t know the important details of Sephiroth that Cloud does.

 

[Eerie]

I did notice that about Aerith, she already says several times that we must appreciate the moment. Also I think that the Whispers definitely have opened her to what the Planet is saying, compared to just the beginning of the story when she meets Cloud for the first time. It’s exactly like she said, every time they touch her, she changes - she learns more about the future, but probably doesn’t have a good context about it, especially since she believes it when Sephiroth says it’s the bad outcome.

I think there is a lot that can be done to prevent the Aerith Jesus, hoping so anyway!