SPOILERS FFVII:R Chapter 18 Spoiler Discussion

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Oh fuck I forgot about the Vulcan mind-meld.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Assuming a poignant journey of self discovery cannot be told with Aerith having a baseline understanding of her heritage, is a self-imposed limit predicated on the singular goal of copying FFVII's experience. That template is but one path that has been tread, and one of many that can be utilized to tell an impactful story. How the writers mix and choose to characterize this fictional character within their adaption of unique circumstances unveiled through this Remake is beyond simple comparisons. If flipping the knowledge of impending death, to where a character was aware their days were numbered was an inherent cop-out or loss of emotional investment in storytelling, then FFIX would not be popular or considered one of the most powerful FFs to deal with life and death. That structural rule of "Aerith must not know" is only in place because it was done in the OG and performed to it's effect there.

The OG never had Cloud and Tifa sharing an intense and intimate moment post plate-fall that bonded them over their shared grief and loss at the hands of Shinra. The OG never had Aerith deal with the trauma of hearing how her mother was desecrated and dissected by the madman who orchestrated her kidnapping as a child and murdered her father. The OG never had Cloud deal with the PTSD and horror of experiencing his village being destroyed or his mother being murdered, while he tried to keep himself together in Midgar. OG Cloud never saw a wider breath of Wall Market or met 3 unique high-roller individuals who were down to screw over Don Corneo's stranglehold of the slums. And the OG certainly didn't showcase Cloud dancing in a Moulin Rouge inspired Honey Bee Inn.

The assumption that the only way the story can be good or work itself, is through adherence and mimicry of the original is precisely the attitude and perspective the creators are rejecting. The cocktail of ingredients that created FFVII for the PSone is not the only formula available to tell it's story effectively. There are multiple paths, elements, variables and unknown ideas that can create a new path that tells the story.

 

[Elisa Maza]

Spoiler

So, the Whisper Harbingers are connected to all threads of time.

This adds credit to the AU theory.

God, I hate this.

 

[Roger]

There’s a difference between heavy handed foreshadowing with a large slathering of meta winking to the audience, and characters actually being consciously aware of their future fates/deaths though. I already stated why, despite some anxieties, I have faith the developers won’t make Aerith’s death a “Jesus-Death”, but if the developers own past statements aren’t enough for you, then I am certainly not going to be able to convince you to have faith/confidence.

I don't think she'll have a "Jesus-Death". But the heavy foreshadowing and meta winking in part of the experience we are getting. If Tifa's words about Aerith expecting to be coming back are gonna ring true then before Aerith leaves she needs to act like she will be right back, no need for long goodbyes, or her time being treated with a sense of finality, giving us every chance to do everything we can with her. Which I think is exactly what we are gonna get. But like Makoeyes says, that's more then one way to tell a good story

Well, if I am truly misremembering the OG, this is a Remake change I do think is for the better. As I just don’t think Ifalna wouldn’t have told Aerith the same important things she told Gast in the OG. As for Red XIII he just has knowledge in the Remake because of his weird mind-meld with Aerith in Chapter 16.
Cloud’s backstory is still important though, as it gives important explanation to how Sephiroth is exactly connected to Jenova, as Aerith only has knowledge of Jenova’s origins in the Remake and only a vague notion of Sephiroth being “wrong”, she doesn’t know the important details of Sephiroth that Cloud does.

We know that, the crew doesn't. Aerith is the one that considers Sephiroth and Jenova the true threat to the planet rather then Cloud as it was in the original game, it stands to reason that she is the one that'll be be expected to explain why rather then Cloud as it was in the original game.

 

[Tetsujin]

Tetsujin, I think you've gone a little too far/rude in presuming that people (myself included) who are confident that the skeleton of the OG plot will be retained in the Remake are just willfully ignorantly in denial. You may not have intended that way, but I felt very disrespected by that implication.

The game tells you "the journey is unknown"

You tell me "I still know the journey"

No, you're literally ignoring the message.

 

[youffie]

I absolutely agree that there is more than one way to tell a story and I’m very curious to see what they’re going to do with her, specifically.

However, her not knowing about her death and wanting to live so bad was one of the reasons why her death stood out so much in the original for many people, and the developers themselves have stressed this countless times, so I wouldn’t just call it “one way to tell” that story. It was an important key of interpretation of the themes of the original game, and it was handled with a subtlety that you don’t really see that often, so yeah, I'd be sad to see it go.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Letting Aerith have foreknowledge of her death would be like re-writing the Lion King so that Simba knows all along that Scar killed Mufasa, or re-writing Macbeth so that he resists the temptation to kill Duncan. You can have every single other plot beat but that one, but if it's missing, it becomes a totally different story.

 

[Elisa Maza]

Aerith has been VERY mysterious in the Remake. There are many instances where it's obvious that she knows how the story goes, but she keeps quiet about it; the scene with Marlene, as sweet as it was, was the biggest clue with Marlene seeing something when Aerith hugged her. If my theory about the Remake being the Planet's Memory is true, it'd make sense that she's a mix of ACC Aerith and OG Aerith.

It's a hot take, but looking at it from a in-game/lore perspective, who would be the one to want a "remaking" of the OG / Compilation events? The one who got defeated and didn’t get his twisted Happy End - the villain - Sephiroth. So, if he still lingers in the Lifestream it would make sense for him to take any chance to try to fuck things up. And if Aerith is also still lingering she would be determined to stop him again. But, as she's a Cetra, she's almost faded and her powers diminished, so she cannot just speak about it.

Alternatively; the theory that existed since the OG that Aerith knew her fate and decided to embark on the journey anyway and that's why her face flashes at the very end of the game the same it first appears in its beginning. She's seen it all and she went along anyway, knowing that her death saves them all. Only in the Remake, she's aware, but she wants to avoid this fate; save them all while she still stays alive. In an optional scene in Ch. 14, she tells Cloud that he cannot fall in love with her, even if he does, it's just his imagination/it's fake (the "imagination" is in JPN). If Aerith is aware of her death, she'd try to protect Cloud's heart so that he wouldn't be too sad. IN the finale, Aerith says that they changed the fate; so she believes she has a chance to live.

Basically, Aerith is again touching Overpowered territory, knows shit, but she hides it, trying to change the outcome of the OG where she dies, into one where she lives.

...I guess.

 

[SpacemanZero]

I guess defeating the whispers might have erased everything that Aerith knew about the future, since it doesn't exist anymore. Maybe the same goes for Sephiroth too? I'd like that, it wouldn't make Sephiroth too OP and would remove a lot of plot holes.

Sephiroth would still have managed to give him a better shot, because he made the party believe that they were heading towards a future where they lose. Through Jenova's hallucinations he showed them what looked like apocalyptic events to the characters. They were not, but they didn't have the context. So the party is now looking to for a way to stop those events and then they'll likely eventually learn, that those were all things that need to happen for them to win.

 

[Roger]

Letting Aerith have foreknowledge of her death would be like re-writing the Lion King so that Simba knows all along that Scar killed Mufasa, or re-writing Macbeth so that he resists the temptation to kill Duncan. You can have every single other plot beat but that one, but if it's missing, it becomes a totally different story.

Cloud remembers killing Sephiroth, Sephiroth acknowledges the event and is cool with it. Aerith tells everyone Red XIII is a child, Hojo recognises Cloud and tells the crew that Cloud is no SOLDIER First Class. Is Aerith's narrative the only one too fragile to survive fundamental change to the core character moments?

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I feel you're probably right, Eliza Maza. And I have nothing against anyone who likes this version of events. I just don't like it.

Cloud remembered killing Sephiroth in the OG - in Kalm. Bugenhagen told the party Red XIII was a child in the OG - in Cosmo Canyon. Hojo recognised Cloud - in Costa del Sol. (TBH I was unclear whether the rest of the party heard Hojo spilling the beans, since he was silenced and carried away by the Whispers).

At no point in the OG did Aerith hint that she was going to her death as a willing sacrifice to save the Planet. I'm well aware that right since the very beginning a section of the fandom has believed she did exactly that - possibly the same section that likes to portray her as a virginal pure pink fairy princess - but the game is pretty lcear that she went off to the Forgotten City fully intending to return and live her life to the full.

I feel so strongly about this that I put it into a fanfic (not the greatest recommendation, I know, but it pretty much sums up how I feel. Tseng and Tifa are having a conversation, post-Meteor:

Tifa looked doubtful. "But... Tseng, you know - if it weren't for Aerith, we'd all be dead. No one else could have cast Holy."

"She didn't have to die to cast Holy."

"If she hadn't gone to the Forgotten City - "

"She didn't have to go there. She could have cast it from the church. I would have taken her down there if she'd asked me. I would have taken her to the Forgotten City if that's where she wanted to go. All she had to do was ask me. She didn't need to die. I know she didn't want to die. Aerith was no saint. She was a girl who loved life and wanted to live it. If we start believing she had to die in order for the rest of us to be saved, then we'll be turning her into something she never was."

However, I get it that the game developers feel they need to do something about this deterministic bind they're in, in which Aerith very much does need to die in order for the plot to stay true to the original. I just hate the idea of turning her into Pink Jesus.

 

[Roger]

I feel you're probably right, Eliza Maza. And I have nothing against anyone who likes this version of events. I just don't like it.

Cloud remembered killing Sephiroth in the OG - in Kalm. Bugenhagen told the party Red XIII was a child in the OG - in Cosmo Canyon. Hojo recognised Cloud - in Costa del Sol. (TBH I was unclear whether the rest of the party heard Hojo spilling the beans, since he was silenced and carried away by the Whispers).

At no point in the OG did Aerith hint that she was going to her death as a willing sacrifice to save the Planet. I'm well aware that right since the very beginning a section of the fandom has believed she did exactly that - possibly the same section that likes to portray her as a virginal pure pink fairy princess - but the game is pretty lcear that she went off to the Forgotten City fully intending to return and live her life to the full.

I feel so strongly about this that I put it into a fanfic (not the greatest recommendation, I know, but it pretty much sums up how I feel. Tseng and Tifa are having a conversation, post-Meteor:



However, I get it that the game developers feel they need to do something about this deterministic bind they're in, in which Aerith very much does need to die in order for the plot to stay true to the original. I just hate the idea of turning her into Pink Jesus.

Zack's death wasn't a sacrifice in the original, he just got shot. He did sacrifice himself in Crisis Core. It did not make him a virginal pure pink fairy princess. In my opinion anyway.

 

[Wol]

well now that the party broke free of their destiny (because reasons), will Aerith still have premonitions or knowledge about the future?

 

[Roger]

well now that the party broke free of their destiny (because reasons), will Aerith still have premonitions or knowledge about the future?

I'd certainly hope premonitions like Cloud had just looking at the Sector Seven pillar are a thing of the past but Aerith and Sephiroth actually forgetting what they knew a day before seems less likely.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I didn't like that about Crisis Core, either. It exemplifies how SE's storytelling goals have changed, and its ability to portray profound truths about the human condition has degenerated into maudlin mysticism and popular sentimental tropes. Also, I never said turning her into a willing virgin sacrifice turns her into a pure pink princess. It's just that the two fanons of Aerith are often connected: people who like to see her in the first role also like to see her in the second. The Zack of the OG was a lot rougher around the edges than Crisis Core Zack, too.

 

[Odysseus]

I always felt Zack was limited in Crisis Core by the box the original put him in. Maybe unpopular opinion, but I don't think he was ever suited for a leading role.

 

[SpacemanZero]

Is there any theory about the portal that Aerith casts? The party doesn't enter the singularity directly through the portal that Sephiroth opened. Instead Aerith first casts her own portal inside the one Sephiroth made, and they use that. It might have been some kind of a ward too I guess. Any takes on that? Maybe they'll reveal it to be more significant later on.

 

[youffie]

Licorice, I can’t like your posts about Aerith enough. I understand that the devs are in a difficult position, because how could they not be? They are about to re-tackle one of the most famous deaths in videogame history, it’s probably the one plot point they’ve been interviewed the most about, and it’s the one thing pretty much everyone knows about FFVII even if they’ve never played it. I’m sure they’re very aware that they must absolutely nail the way they deal with this, whatever it is that they plan to do with it.

It’s not my favorite part of the game or even why I love it so much, but I think it’s perfectly understandable that everything concerning her death might be the one thing that makes or breaks the Remake project as a whole for many people. You can change a lot and I’d say I’m more on board than most on the changes/additions they implemented, but if the things that defined the game and its enduring legacy are lost, then what’s the point of all this?

 

[pollenainne]

About Aerith, In the Remake she said to Wedge "Right here, right now, I need to know I did everything I could." This to me is the core of her character from the OG.

In the OG I actually thought that even though she didn't know she was going to die, she felt that possibility. She knew that by casting Holy, she would be an obstruction to Sephiroth's plans and he would definitely not just stand by and do nothing. And yet, faced with that choice, she decided to simply do everything she could. Cloud was being depressed (understandably) and so she took that journey alone.

She also says in the remake "The future is always a blank page." Which made no sense because then the Whispers would not exist. Either that was a translation error, or this is just something Aerith wants to believe despite everything. She wants to do her best without being hindered by what she knows of the future. She chooses to believe that the outcome isn't set in stone despite what she knows. (A mindset by the way that the developers might want us to have. lol)

 

[ForceStealer]

She also says in the remake "The future is always a blank page." Which made no sense because then the Whispers would not exist.

More than that, it was the complete opposite of what she had said like 15 minutes ago

 

[pollenainne]

More than that, it was the complete opposite of what she had said like 15 minutes ago

Which leads me to believe, it is just something she tells herself. This is actually in line with past events of her seeming to know that the plate was going to fall regardless but she never stopped them from trying to stop the inevitable.

 

[Odysseus]

This talk of Aerith knowing the future reminds me of an old fan theory. The original game was book-ended with the same shot of Aerith's face, and the theory posited that this was because the entire game was actually her vision of things to come. Couldn't help but remember that as I was playing.

 

[LegendarySaiyan]

When meeting Aerith in the Church, notice that she already knows that Cloud is a Soldier (Cloud correcting her "Ex-Soldier") and that he is a merc now. She did not know of this before being told by Cloud in the OG. There is more to REMAKE Aerith than meets the eye. Hmm..

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

If I bumped into anyone dressed like Cloud in Midgar, I'd know they were a SOLDIER. When you've lived in Midgar as long as we have, you recognise these Shinra types when you see them. I'd recognise a Turk, too, and the various Shinra troopers.

 

[LegendarySaiyan]

If I bumped into anyone dressed like Cloud in Midgar, I'd know they were a SOLDIER. When you've lived in Midgar as long as we have, you recognise these Shinra types when you see them. I'd recognise a Turk, too, and the various Shinra troopers.

Strange that Aerith recognize him as a SOLDIER and a "Merc", but Reno who is a Turk and works for Shinra must be told by Aerith in that very same scene that Cloud is a Soldier. Logically you are right, IRL we can recognize someone from the military by their looks and so on, but this is a video game. By your logic, Jessie, Biggs and Wedge should also have recognized Roche as a Soldier which they did not.

Just like Stamp, IRL Stamps design could be changed without any meaning to it, just a design change. In a video game it can mean many other things and one of the theories is that the Stamp is different in Zack's Last Stand scene is because it is an alternate timeline.

My point is that I believe that they put small clues throughout the game, which one can miss and that Aerith scene in the Church is one of them (that is what I believe)