SPOILERS FFVII:R Chapter 18 Spoiler Discussion

[Cannon_Fodder]

So, finally beat it for myself today. I know it's largely beating a dead horse, but here are some of my thoughts on Chapter 18:

• Whisper Harbinger is a dumb fight. The spectacle is kinda weak, the fights against the minions are repetitive and visually unimpressive, and the constant camera cuts to show Harbinger's reaction when you stagger a minion makes the battle choppy. And since I didn't get Bahamut for myself, it was disappointing to have my first impression of him to be the result of a Gurren Lagann-lite combination sequence.
• The fight against Sephiroth is pretty fun, but in a game with really strong bosses, I wouldn't call it the best. Still, the scene transitions were cool (especially since they seemed to be tied to staggering Sephiroth?), and having party members rejoin one at a time escalated the fight well. Cloud's Counterstance ability kinda clowned him out though; I felt like the power dynamic had reversed because every time Sephiroth used a particular attack Cloud just sat his ass down.
• Storywise, my impulse to spoil endings for myself really saved the day. I got my disappointment out of the way a week ago, and even though I don't especially like the ending, I can't say it really gets under my skin. It doesn't change my opinion of this game, it just makes me wary of the story next time. That said...
• I'm in for part two on gameplay alone. Hopefully the story there is good, but I've loved games with terrible stories before.
• When I saw spoilers, I thought that Zack was alive. When I watched it myself, I thought he was dead. The only constant is that I don't like that this is a question I'm even thinking about.
• I'm kind of annoyed that Red's role in this part is to spout all the expository banter about fate, destiny, and other bits of bullshit, but he still had his moments so I won't complain.

 

[snatchr]

Back to my old plans of desperately trying to make friends look past 1997 graphics, wonky translations and turnbased ATB gameplay because I can't really in good faith recommend this as a clean and definitive way to experience FF7.

 

[Noble0ne]

Bottom line for me...

This remake is intentionally not a replacement for the original game, despite promoting & masking itself as such. & I am just not mpressed with the new storyline tangent (yet). So my vote currently is I am somewhat disappointed.

I spent 88 hours on my playthrough. Two weekends and my entire vacation on this game.

Was going to write so many more posts about my impressions and observations. Was even going to have fun pointing out some more flaws, like making a montage video of how ridiculously many NPC lines that Ch16 re-used from Ch13 and Ch14.
80% of NPC lines in Shinra HQ is actually slum dialogue re-used.

But it's all so meaningless now. Chapters 1 - 16 are almost undiluted greatness. But the ending renders all those positive emotions into a distant memory. I won't be going for all trophies. Not gonna play this on Hard Mode, despite how awesome the gameplay is. There's just no point in it.

My First Class pre-order copy of the game is still in its plastic wrapping. I was planning to unwrap it after I had cleared the game on my standard copy, so that I could look inside the art book and import the DLC. Won't be doing that now.

My physical copy is still in the wrap too. My Amazon order came late so I got the digital for release day, keeping the physical for the art book. Now I just want to sell it.

 

[LNK]

Back to my old plans of desperately trying to make friends look past 1997 graphics, wonky translations and turnbased ATB gameplay because I can't really in good faith recommend this as a clean and definitive way to experience FF7.

That's too bad for your friends. I'd recommend them to play both. That way they can form their opinion on both of them

 

[Odysseus]

Grievances with the ending aside, The Final Fantasy VII Remake is still one of the best games square has put out in the past 15 years, and is certainly among the best action RPGs I've ever played. It has its problems, but I think it still makes a fine introduction to the FF7 world for new comers that don't find a 23 year old PS1 game approachable. Newcomers don't have the same biases we do, so things we don't like aren't going to be things they don't like necessarily. I think its easy to forget that.

 

[oty]

Worst case scenario, just tell them to end the game at Motorball. Bam, 95% faithful.

But yeah, thinking from a financial point of view, FFVIIR isnt a bad 60$ spent. I mean, RE3 also had a, not as much but still, controversial ending and that thing only gave us 5 freaking hours of gameplay.

Like honestly, hate the ending and all that, but atleast the game wasnt a damn cut content freak like RE3. That thing let me fuming.

 

[LNK]

Worst case scenario, just tell them to end the game at Motorball. Bam, 95% faithful.

But yeah, thinking from a financial point of view, FFVIIR isnt a bad 60$ spent. I mean, RE3 also had a, not as much but still, controversial ending and that thing only gave us 5 freaking hours of gameplay.

Like honestly, hate the ending and all that, but atleast the game wasnt a damn cut content freak like RE3. That thing let me fuming.

And that's exactly why I haven't bought RE3 remake yet. Spending $60 for a 5 hour game? No thank you

 

[Noble0ne]

Grievances with the ending aside, The Final Fantasy VII Remake is still one of the best games square has put out in the past 15 years, and is certainly among the best action RPGs I've ever played. It has its problems, but I think it still makes a fine introduction to the FF7 world for new comers that don't find a 23 year old PS1 game approachable. Newcomers don't have the same biases we do, so things we don't like aren't going to be things they don't like necessarily. I think its easy to forget that.

I place it right above the first 13 & then 15 and they are low on my list. Edit*not really, but expected better*. I love watching the OG YouTube playthroughs 23years later. But I'm already burnt out seeing any remake play I'm not doing myself. Because the storyline know after the first full playthrough urks me.

Spoiler: My Ranking list, ranked how I would play them as of today... Some will hate it, but I played all of these

S+ •FF7 (lifestream thoerys, character development, materia system, open world, storyline, gov greed, the bigger picture)

S FF6 (anti religion, Espers Racism, Villian wins)
S FF10 (anti religion, sports, visuals, lame tidboy)

A+ FF9(nice adventure villain is mad flamboyant)
A+ FF12 (Gabits, open halls, no lead, lame chars)

A FF14 (good MMO)
A FFTactics (anti religion & gov & discrimination class divides, that save point fail)

B+ FF7 Spin offs ( BC CC DC AC Novella) & remake
B+ FF13 (anti religion & gov lies/visuals/too liner)

B FF15 & pocket (good story/play, boyband lame)
B FF8 (squall )

C+ FFDissidia (bravery points vs a satisfying 2nd regenerative HP bar)
C+ FF cristal chronicals (monster huter)

C FF11 ( decent MMO )
C FF10-2 (girl power x3 game with added lore)

D+ Brave Exivous & DissiOmniOpra (I recommend)
D+ FF4 (okay characters/adventure)

D FF1 (intresting classic)
D FF5 (slightly dated, so so game)

F+ FF3 ( Dated and was somewhat to plain to me )
F+ FF2 (Dated and was boring to me)

F 13-2 (trashy time travel hallway)
F FF Type O

F- FF Mobious & other Moble/p2w/gacha $grab grind games
F- 13-3 (awful, weird girl jesus kills God vibe)

•FF Portal with Tripple triad is a Honorable mention.
•Choccobo raising & bike racing games are not my thing

* Dont mind my side notes they jog my memory about what I liked or disliked

*If you meant all square enix games then that's even lower down the list

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Honestly, the fact that we’re trying to read so much into a chip bag that is likely there largely for visual symbolism, makes me think we’re giving it more meaning than the developers themselves did.
Basically I could see the developers thinking, “hey Cloud gets associated with the Stamp mascot so much throughout the game, it would be neat to hint at his relationship to Zack, by showing a different type of Stamp dog during the Zack scenes using the original brand flavor chips” and calling it a day, not thinking about the implications of mascot history and how masco redesigns work in real life or alternate universes indications.

If that's the whole of their intentions, that really seems like it could have been achieved more effectively by a) using the same dog; and b) not going out of their way to drastically change the small number of scenes featuring Zack from the prior depictions of his death.

 

[Noble0ne]

I'm team I think Zack is alive... Haven't seen anyone definitively claimed it yet

 

[Kain424]

Nah, I think they're saying if there are alternate timelines then it's Crisis Core. This game is something of a retcon for that game.

 

[Noble0ne]

I see, we'll then, I'm not sure about alternate time lines... But I am team this game is a sequel.

 

[Kain424]

There is definitely more to the game for people familiar with the original. But I'm not seeing anything indicating a sequel.

 

[oty]

It's a very loose sequel, at best. It's not like having played the original/compilation gave us an "edge" about it. The few moments where that knowledge was actually a difference maker were very brief, and the game even offers an explanation of it. It's much more of a "metanarrative" than a sequel.

 

[Kain424]

Kinda, I guess. Depending on where they run with it. But we saw events we were familiar with, if we played the original/watched Advent Children. If those events don't come to pass in the eventual sequel sections, they will be absolute nonsense upon replays for new players.

 

[Noble0ne]

Sequel...

Loose or not loose. The story relies on the OG game as a reference point. It's a secondary story that relies on the OG story. It does not replace the OG as cannon. Newcomers will not understand this game in it's entirety until they hit the internet and get the scoop. We have been in the internet age of gamming since Nintendo. It's not like OG players and remake only players are expected to have different source info once reviews are made and official guides come to be kept on different vantage points for a extended period. And newcomers clearly have stuff thrown at them they can have no idea about without OG reference or AC refference, a lot is not explained that is inferred. As far as FF7 cannon goes, call it what you want. The up next, the Beta, the follow up, the aftermath, the replay, the continuation... But it's not a write over of cannon events... Therefore

Sequel

 

[Kain424]

A sequel is a follow-up. You could call this maybe... an adaptation. But it is not a sequel.

 

[Noble0ne]

I would argue, if you have seen 'your' supposed future, that has already played out before in some shape or form In the fluidness of time...

...Then you are not actually looking at the over arching future in a grand picture timeline. you are looking at the past because it already happend.

Even if the year for them is the same. The occurrence is not on the same point in a grander scope of time. They defeated there 500 year destiny... But we watched that in theaters... It happened. It's not overwrite as if it never happened. So sure it a adaptive follow up ?

 

[Kain424]

Esoteric readings aren't the same thing as serial definitions.

This seems more in line with what I said a while back. It's an attempt to tie everything in and make a definitive version.

 

[Noble0ne]

Cool you win... Ima go read the asses definition of the arbiters of fate now...

 

[Kain424]

Okie dokie.

 

[Kratos]

Sequel...

Loose or not loose. The story relies on the OG game as a reference point. It's a secondary story that relies on the OG story. It does not replace the OG as cannon. Newcomers will not understand this game in it's entirety until they hit the internet and get the scoop. We have been in the internet age of gamming since Nintendo. It's not like OG players and remake only players are expected to have different source info once reviews are made and official guides come to be kept on different vantage points for a extended period. And newcomers clearly have stuff thrown at them they can have no idea about without OG reference or AC refference, a lot is not explained that is inferred. As far as FF7 cannon goes, call it what you want. The up next, the Beta, the follow up, the aftermath, the replay, the continuation... But it's not a write over of cannon events... Therefore

Sequel

"Canon" is a term that means "in continuity with a set of stories", and a sequel is a story that follows from the events of an earlier story; therefore, a sequel has to be in canon with what it follows by definition.

Unless the (as of now baseless) hypothesis that Remake Sephiroth is Advent Children Sephiroth trying to muck about with the past, Remake does not follow from the events of the original game. It's re-telling those events, but they haven't already happened in-universe, so it's not a sequel. It's why we wouldn't say that the Andrew Garfield Spider-man films are sequels to the Tobey Maguire ones, or that the Gundam movie trilogy is a sequel to the TV series: works like this essentially exist outside the idea of canon entirely, because it's an inherently contradictory notion to apply to a retelling of the same story. Two differing versions of the same narrative can't be in continuity with each other. It's a paradox.

EDIT: But I can see what the chief issue is - you're working under the assumption that only one "canon" can exist at any given time, so if Remake isn't a replacement for the original, then it has to be a sequel, because that's the only way they can co-exist. However, multiple canons are more than possible within any given franchise, and I would argue are actually much more common than franchises with one single, immutable canon.

(Also - anything in the game that can't be understood in its own context, which is far less than you imply, is stuff that has clearly been set up for future explanation. Stories written with sequels in mind do this all the time. On top of that: given the nature of the project, using existing knowledge of the OG and the franchise as a whole in an attempt to parse it is a flawed methodology because there's no indication that Remake expects or even wants us to do so and we don't even know what - if anything - is relevant; we're doing it exclusively because it's really the only tool available as of now).

 

[Noble0ne]

I'm assuming they are in the same cannon... Like sephiroth is somehow connecting with his advent children knowledge and so does Aerith. They clearly both are aware of in-universe events that already happened. Even the cloud sees flashes of Aerith's death. Not two cannon's in my opinion just one.

The real question now is how are they able to see things from the OG game and Advent children in precise exact implicating renditions, if the events from one story do not coexist in the same universe of occurrence.

But if we are using marvel references. Then yes I would say that Captain America in the endgame that went to the past to live with his wife looped back in time sequel to him being asleep for years. And was not a write over of his life with the avengers.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

This is the reason I hate American superhero comics so much. And why I've come to hate Dr Who so much.

 

[Theozilla]

If that's the whole of their intentions, that really seems like it could have been achieved more effectively by a) using the same dog; and b) not going out of their way to drastically change the small number of scenes featuring Zack from the prior depictions of his death.

I think the different dog is the point in this case though, different dogs to symbolically differentiate between Zack and Cloud.
As for the b) point I have no opinion either way, but SE changing details of major character deaths seen par for the course, with the OG vs CC versions of Zack’s death, and then the various versions of Sephiroth’s Nibelheim “death”. So it doesn’t surprise me that the Remake depiction of the scenes that lead to Zack’s death are a little different again.