SPOILERS FFVII:R Chapter 18 Spoiler Discussion

[crazyrabbits23]

I mean, the proof is in the pudding, so you'll have to wait until all parts are out, natch. And you can't say that FF7R Part 1 included everything when all of my favorite moments from Shinra HQ were cut (if we're talking pure runtime, then it's not an issue I suppose).

I'm actually hoping they save some of the stuff that didn't make the cut for Midgar/Shinra HQ for either the Return to Midgar (presuming that's still a thing - no idea how they'd work that, though, unless they limit it to only two or three sectors) or the Midgar Raid. Going back there was one of my favorite moments in the OG, and I'm hoping that if there will be a way to get the Limited Moon weapon (yes, running up stairs and all) and Cait Sith's bonus weapon in the HQ.

 

[Theozilla]

Normura kinda gave it away when he talked about the doublespeak of "Remake."

That’s still just a fan theory though. The fact that the title of Remake is being confirmed to have additional meanings to it doesn’t confirm that the Remake project is a sequel.

 

[oty]

I feel like if the pacing was gonna have issues, I'd rather it be from that then what I mentioned above. I'm hoping we'll get to see the scenes one way or another.

Sidequests are usually inside the breathers the game gives, and the questionable narratives the story brings atleast have a bit of sense inside the overall plot (even though they sometimes suck, sorry Leslie). It would take some hoops to put in a Turks scenario that wasnt in one of those breathers, and the Remake already stretches thin it's pacing. Definitely riskier than what they picked.

Normura kinda gave it away when he talked about the doublespeak of "Remake."

The first theory is the right one? No no. That's not smart enough to catch up on Nomura. Or maybe too smart

 

[Rydeen]

Sidequests are usually inside the breathers the game gives, and the questionable narratives the story brings atleast have a bit of sense inside the overall plot (even though they sometimes suck, sorry Leslie). It would take some hoops to put in a Turks scenario that wasnt in one of those breathers, and the Remake already stretches thin it's pacing. Definitely riskier than what they picked.

That makes sense.

The first theory is the right one? No no. That's not smart enough to catch up on Nomura. Or maybe too smart

If it's correct, that doesn't mean that there wouldn't still be a bunch of mysteries to unpack. There are a lot of things they can do with this.

That’s still just a fan theory though. The fact that the title of Remake is being confirmed to have additional meanings to it doesn’t confirm that the Remake project is a sequel.

What other meanings could "Remake" have that don't involve temporal plotlines? I'm not 100% discrediting that maybe it's not time travel related since it's not 100% confirmed, but what else could possibly be meant by that? I think the time travel theory is far more likely than any other contenders.

 

[Noble0ne]

What? The Ultimania interview doesn’t state any of that at all though?

Nomura: When we developed the Compilation of FFVII, the installments included Advent Children, Before Crisis, Crisis Core, and Dirge of Cerberus, so we knew that we wanted to make a fifth installment.

Nomura: I decided to clearly express to those with doubt that this is a complete remake of the original with the title “Remake” as well. In regards to the other meaning to the word “Remake,” well, I can’t answer that right now. Ask me again in a couple of years (laughs).

but then there’s suddenly a huge plot device that gets revealed, and that surprised me.
Nomura: Is that so? (laughs)
Nojima: I’m sure you were thinking, “What will happen next?”
—How did this development come to being?
Nomura: When I requested a scenario to Nojima, I first thought, “if I am to create the FFVII Remake, I would like to do it this way.” I then conveyed my ideas to him. During that phase, I planned to make this be more than just a mere “Remake.” For example, the battle system this time around is in real timee instead of using an ATB gauge, and with that, the story itself took a turn that isn’t just the basic FFVII, but something new.

For those who are familiar with the original story, this line carries a lot of meaning.
Nojima: To be honest, some staff actually told me that this line made it seem like Aerith was looking down on Cloud, so it got rejected a few times. If you know Aerith’s fate, then this line would really pull at your heart strings, but if you did not know what happens to Aerith, then you might interpret the scene in a completely different way. I thought the gap between the two interpretations was very interesting

Nomura: I think there might be some who think “Since this is the Remake, I don’t need to play the original game anymore and just play the Remake instead,” but I want to prevent people from doing that. The original and the Remake are two separate entities. So even if you play FFVII Remake, I would also like you to play the FFVII original game afterwards as well.

 

[Theozilla]

What other meanings could "Remake" have that don't involve temporal plotlines? I'm not 100% discrediting that maybe it's not time travel related since it's not 100% confirmed, but what else could possibly be meant by that? I think the time travel theory is far more likely than any other contenders.

Plenty of other things, especially if one considers meta meanings too. Also I am not denying the possibility of time shenanigans occurring, but even the presence of those doesn’t make something a sequel.

Nomura: When we developed the Compilation of FFVII, the installments included Advent Children, Before Crisis, Crisis Core, and Dirge of Cerberus, so we knew that we wanted to make a fifth installment.

Nomura: I think there might be some who think “Since this is the Remake, I don’t need to play the original game anymore and just play the Remake instead,” but I want to prevent people from doing that. The original and the Remake are two separate entities. So even if you play FFVII Remake, I would also like you to play the FFVII original game afterwards as well.

None of that confirms that the Remake is a sequel though. It’s just stating the a Remake is part of the Compilation and that the OG should be played in addition to the Remake and are separate entities.

Like I also would recommend that people play the OG too, just like any movie that is adapted from a book I would recommend people checking out the source material in those cases too.
However, one doesn’t have to falsely claim a fan theory has been confirmed by the developers to do so.

 

[oty]

That makes sense.



If it's correct, that doesn't mean that there wouldn't still be a bunch of mysteries to unpack. There are a lot of things they can do with this.



What other meanings could "Remake" have that don't involve temporal plotlines? I'm not 100% discrediting that maybe it's not time travel related since it's not 100% confirmed, but what else could possibly be meant by that? I think the time travel theory is far more likely than any other contenders.

Oh no, there are absolutely time shenanigans in there. But the possibility that there are actual time travels from after the Original 7 is well....still just a possibility. Specially since the Remake's depiction of the Original already differs from said Original even without the Whispers/Seph thingy.

Unless there are some real, crazy Xenoblade stuff in there, or they simply dont care and just accept that as the actual version (like Crisis Core's and the OG's Last Stand), there are evidences and plenty of counters towards that theory. Didnt the Ultimania state that the Sephiroth at the ending is one "never seen before in the Compilation" or something like that? Or maybe that doesnt include a post AC or between VII-AC Sephiroth.

 

[Wol]

Oh no, there are absolutely time shenanigans in there. But the possibility that there are actual time travels from after the Original 7 is well....still just a possibility. Specially since the Remake's depiction of the Original already differs from said Original even without the Whispers/Seph thingy.

Unless there are some real, crazy Xenoblade stuff in there, or they simply dont care and just accept that as the actual version (like Crisis Core's and the OG's Last Stand), there are evidences and plenty of counters towards that theory. Didnt the Ultimania state that the Sephiroth at the ending is one "never seen before in the Compilation" or something like that? Or maybe that doesnt include a post AC or between VII-AC Sephiroth.

Yeah, its not like the Whispers were screwing with Roche just for existing... though I would love to see that.

 

[Rydeen]

Plenty of other things, especially if one considers meta meanings too.

Do you have an example/theory?

Oh no, there are absolutely time shenanigans in there.

Do you think the time travel could have occurred from the past, or from within the OG, rather than from the future?

Specially since the Remake's depiction of the Original already differs from said Original even without the Whispers/Seph thingy.

I find it very easy to chalk up to butterfly effect/probability. After all, Aerith did continuously suggest that the "future is not set in stone."

 

[ultima786]

Any idea what Aerith meant when she was talking to the party in her Shinra room, where she says, "Every time the Whispers touch me, I lose a part of myself. Follow the yellow roses..." or something like that?

 

[Rydeen]

Any idea what Aerith meant when she was talking to the party in her Shinra room, where she says, "Every time the Whispers touch me, I lose a part of myself. Follow the yellow roses..." or something like that?

My idea is that every time they touch her, she is railroaded and loses her agency over her decisions, and that's why she feels like she's losing a part of herself.

 

[Wol]

Any idea what Aerith meant when she was talking to the party in her Shinra room, where she says, "Every time the Whispers touch me, I lose a part of myself. Follow the yellow roses..." or something like that?

I guess the Whispers were draining her of her knowledge about future events, which explains why she feels lost in a maze, because her knowledge is fragmented.

 

[Theozilla]

Do you have an example/theory?

Well off the top of my head an additional meta meaning could be that the title is referring to how the player are actively “remaking” the story of FFVII itself by playing the Remake.
Or that the characters are “remaking” their own stories through this new depiction of their arcs in Remake. And so and so forth, it’s a relatively broad concept.

 

[ultima786]

I guess the Whispers were draining her of her knowledge about future events, which explains why she feels lost in a maze, because her knowledge is fragmented.

Whoa this actually makes a lot of sense. So this means Aerith always had knowledge of the future, or perhaps she received the premonition of future events while she looked at the mako-leaking pipe at the start of OG. And then throughout the game the Whispers are trying to take that knowledge away from her.

 

[Noble0ne]

I'm done... Everything I post is just as fan theory... Really.... Okay I'm taking a break from posting for a bit. ... Later, (for maybe 5 seconds or many days idk)

 

[crazyrabbits23]

When a work of art includes its own self-commentary.

The best way I heard the game described was, "Sephiroth is playing on New Game Plus mode... and he's put himself in the role of Dungeon Master."

 

[Eerie]

I guess the Whispers were draining her of her knowledge about future events, which explains why she feels lost in a maze, because her knowledge is fragmented.

This is funny cause it’s really a good explanation but I came up with the contrary lol. Every time the Whispers touch her, she gains fragmented knowledge and doesn’t understand what the grand scheme is and is lost with all those tidbits she now knows but can’t comprehend. I took the loss of herself as in they add too much to her and thus she’s losing her own character when that happens.

 

[Wol]

This is funny cause it’s really a good explanation but I came up with the contrary lol. Every time the Whispers touch her, she gains fragmented knowledge and doesn’t understand what the grand scheme is and is lost with all those tidbits she now knows but can’t comprehend. I took the loss of herself as in they add too much to her and thus she’s losing her own character when that happens.

I would say that goes against the Whispers objective, which is preventing Aerith of revealing too much. But what do I know.

I'm not an expert in Kingdom Hearts lore.

 

[Eerie]

Neither am I. I just worked with the idea that since they work for the Planet so they must have access to the Planet’s knowledge. But maybe instead of wanting that knowledge from Aerith, they simply want to take out her knowledge because she knows too much?

 

[Wol]

Neither am I. I just worked with the idea that since they work for the Planet so they must have access to the Planet’s knowledge. But maybe instead of wanting that knowledge from Aerith, they simply want to take out her knowledge because she knows too much?

I think that's why since the beginning they don't leave her in peace, they know she's a potential danger because of what she knows.

Or maybe Aerith says she loses a part of herself when she's touched by them, because she is receiving more glimpses of the future when that happens, and that by itself is changing her sense of self and perspective.

Goddamit Nomura.

 

[Eerie]

I can hear his sadistic laughter in the background

 

[Weeros]

That’s still just a fan theory though. The fact that the title of Remake is being confirmed to have additional meanings to it doesn’t confirm that the Remake project is a sequel.

Hi! Sorry to do this as the first post, as I’ve been mostly lurking these fascinating discussions for now but...

I was wondering why is this still being debated? Isn’t this purely about semantics now? I mean, the facts are that

1. The game is not the remake many fans expected, ie. something that would work as independent piece outside other FFVII lore (mainly the og), or as the definitive edition of the original game

2. The game’s major plot device, the fate dementors, depend entirely on the plot of the original to work and exist. Besides the whispers themselves, even the main characters (Aerith, Sephiroth, potentially Cloud) are aware of the events in previous timeloop, ie. FFVII, and that knowledge affects their actions in this story. These actions, eg. Sephiroth’s simply don’t make sense without acknowledging the previous iteration. It’s not just that the key moments flashed by the whispers need to be prevented - it’s basically every step along the way, taken in the og, that drove them there.

It’s really the same thing with the payoffs too. Any value or meaning anyone will place on Zack’s miraculous survival is based entirely on the fanbase built on him in previous games, and knowing that he is supposed to die. Independently it’s just a hunh? moment here.

3. The game is, despite the developers efforts and claims, quite unfriendly to newcomers. It simply relies too much on the og story being the first version and this being clearly the ”second go”. Not just the the major plot elements, the tacked on plot ghosts and Zack, but even Sephiroth’s proper build up is skipped based on the assumption the player already knows his reputation. You could try argue ”they’ll figure it out” or ”fill the gaps”, yet I could say that about eg. Empire Strikes Back or any other properly marketed sequel too.

To summarize, I think when people claim ”it’s a sequel!”, it’s not derived from it’s exact placement in the game narrative’s concept of time, but how the game’s narrative positions itself next to the other games. You could call the game ”requel” if that helps but I think that’s besides the point people are trying to make.

It’s interesting that in a sense, imho FFVIIR is much more a sequel than for instance Breath of the Wild which would actually work really well as Zelda 1 reimagining, yet has clearly stated to take place at the end of the existing Zelda timeline. Same could be said about Abrams’ Star Trek in comparison - that too requires much less knowledge of previous stories to work, despite featuring many same characters, even same incarnations (old Spock) from previous series.

 

[Wol]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1256501982749130752

Just sayin

 

[Strangelove]

Hmmm, I agree hito’s more literal translation is more precise, but I feel the English localization flows better and sounds like more naturalistic speaking dialogue that a native English speaker would say, and still overall conveys the same meaning.

i maybe should clarify that i focused on being literal over making it flow nicely to highlight the differences between the two, even if some parts come across as a bit stilted

 

[Makoeyes987]

Hi! Sorry to do this as the first post, as I’ve been mostly lurking these fascinating discussions for now but...

I was wondering why is this still being debated? Isn’t this purely about semantics now? I mean, the facts are that

1. The game is not the remake many fans expected, ie. something that would work as independent piece outside other FFVII lore (mainly the og), or as the definitive edition of the original game

2. The game’s major plot device, the fate dementors, depend entirely on the plot of the original to work and exist. Besides the whispers themselves, even the main characters (Aerith, Sephiroth, potentially Cloud) are aware of the events in previous timeloop, ie. FFVII, and that knowledge affects their actions in this story. These actions, eg. Sephiroth’s simply don’t make sense without acknowledging the previous iteration. It’s not just that the key moments flashed by the whispers need to be prevented - it’s basically every step along the way, taken in the og, that drove them there.

It’s really the same thing with the payoffs too. Any value or meaning anyone will place on Zack’s miraculous survival is based entirely on the fanbase built on him in previous games, and knowing that he is supposed to die. Independently it’s just a hunh? moment here.

3. The game is, despite the developers efforts and claims, quite unfriendly to newcomers. It simply relies too much on the og story being the first version and this being clearly the ”second go”. Not just the the major plot elements, the tacked on plot ghosts and Zack, but even Sephiroth’s proper build up is skipped based on the assumption the player already knows his reputation. You could try argue ”they’ll figure it out” or ”fill the gaps”, yet I could say that about eg. Empire Strikes Back or any other properly marketed sequel too.

To summarize, I think when people claim ”it’s a sequel!”, it’s not derived from it’s exact placement in the game narrative’s concept of time, but how the game’s narrative positions itself next to the other games. You could call the game ”requel” if that helps but I think that’s besides the point people are trying to make.

It’s interesting that in a sense, imho FFVIIR is much more a sequel than for instance Breath of the Wild which would actually work really well as Zelda 1 reimagining, yet has clearly stated to take place at the end of the existing Zelda timeline. Same could be said about Abrams’ Star Trek in comparison - that too requires much less knowledge of previous stories to work, despite featuring many same characters, even same incarnations (old Spock) from previous series.

First off, no one was promised or guaranteed any particular kind of Remake, it was always the writer's choice and decision. Just like every other game they've made in their careers. This was not like a contractual obligation or commission off of Kickstarter. No one was owed or expected anything when the OG came out in '97, so why would that be the case now. And it was said several times in their "Making of FFVII Remake" series, it was not going to be a 1:1 remake of the game.

The concepts of the Whispers and their scheme towards holding true to the outline of events of the original story, is an example of something only fans experienced with the original game would pick up on. For any one new or wholly unaware, as stated by players who have no idea of the OG, they found it simply to be an unexplained plot thread waiting to be spun. When everyone keeps saying it's not "new player friendly," that runs counter to the myriad of new fans.. Who are enjoying it, finding no problem with it, and are just simply motivated to stick around or play the OG and find out the original game the Remake is referencing. That's not "new player unfriendly." That's called generating interesting.

As for Sephiroth, it's been explained before that Kitase and the writers wanted to redo the direction of his introduction and relevance with the plot, given he's no longer an unknown character or mystery. They can delve more into his character, and have him function more directly to utilize the fact that this is not just one game, but an adaption spanning multiple games.

In the end, there are a multitude of ways through the method of time travel/manipulation/looping, that this Remake plot may unfold that does not make it a direct sequel to anything. A re-spinning, or remake of the story of FFVII within the context of the narrative, is not a sequel. None of what happens before is necessary for the understanding of the present now. A sequel by definition requires the understanding of a direct sequence of previous events, to have the context of what's going on now. And that's not the case here. Fans of the original and fans brand new are equally in the dark of just what exactly is going on.