FFVII REMAKE CONFIRMED

[Lulcielid]

His capacity as a director in the HD era is completely untested and won't be made apparent until KH3 releases in January 2019, so stop with your weird Nomura worshipping hyperbole.

WoW stop right there, so me defending Nomura means I workship him? What a leap in logic.

I'll be first in saying upfront none of his contribution to KH since 2010 have been good (they were largely terrible) but that doesn't mean I will trash talk him for stuff that's not true: most of the FF & KH related projects he's been involved were received favourably (I never said universal aclaim) and didn't flop, that's a fact and why he's competent to be involved in many projects, regardless of how much I like or dislike his desicions.

 

[Cereal for Dinner]

Or perhaps the game was never in extensive development for as long as you believed and thus never had an astronomical budget.

??? What? We know development began in 2006/2007. There was a good 6-7 year period of split teams, mismanagement, and still releasing/promising bits and bobs of content. I am pretty sure this is well documented.

He's put in charge because he delivers what the executives are expecting. The projects he's being involved have had overall favourable reception from critics and were never outright flops, thus he's a good director indepently of you liking his creative desicions or not.

PS-PS2 era Final Fantasy for Final Fantasy was the best in its genre. Part of the answer to their inability to modernize the series has been to... Kingdom Heartsify it.

It hasn't been as colossal a failure as Sonic adapting to 3D platforming... but I can't help but see some parallels. Why break the formula for more "action oriented" content? Personal tastes comes into play yeah, but there is also a very tangible stagnation in the FF series specifically since transitioning into modern consoles. Is this all Nomura's fault? No. However, is he not one of the biggest creative forces in a company whose flagship series has been struggling for a long time? If SE was truly committed to the level of reinvention that Final Fantasy is specifically known for, then that is the first piece of fat that needs to go. His track record shows that he is better utilized making KH games.

My point is that as long as Square Enix keeps making the same moves that they have been through the last 10-15 years, then all we can do is have lower expectations. I can kinda see that a lot of people here have come to terms with that. But if that means fans are wondering if your games are going to be made at all... that's a really bad thing to be normalizing.

For some reason, Square-Enix has had a tendency to kiddify the sequels to all of their games. Maybe it's the influence of Kingdom Hearts that has made them shy away from gritty material, I don't know, but they seem very averse to creating serious and mature content. See: FF sequels (X-2, the XIII sequels, Revenant Wings, VII compilation), the Mana series, Parasite Eve 3. It's like they're chasing the tripe dragon, the perfect brain-dead and childlike formula that's sure to be a hit. They really don't understand the importance of a good script anymore.

I heard that Final Fantasy XII was going to be a completely different game with Basch as the main character, but SE replaced him with Vaan because they thought a younger character would appeal to their audience more. They decided to meddle in the work of Yasumi Matsuno, who created one of the most popular Final Fantasy games of all time, to do this. I can only guess how the game would have turned out, but it's safe to say that it became more lighthearted and "likable" and less serious as a result of this intervention.

Think of Die Another Day. While Die Another Day was very financially successful, the creators realized that its success was unlikely to be replicated (over the long haul anyways), so they changed course to make Casino Royale instead.

 

[Lex]

oh

well, it was nice seeing some final fantasy games actually released again before i die

I have my issues with Tabata aswell, I certainly don't see him as a saviour. The treatment of female characters in the games he's helmed is very questionable and I'm still of the opinion that XV is a half baked mess, no matter how many cutscenes they add in to attempt to pretend it's not.

His capacity as a director in the HD era is completely untested and won't be made apparent until KH3 releases in January 2019, so stop with your weird Nomura worshipping hyperbole.

WoW stop right there, so me defending Nomura means I workship him? What a leap in logic, I'll be first in saying upfront none of his contribution to KH since 2010 have been good (they were largely terrible) but that doesn't mean I will trash talk him for stuff that's not true: most of the FF & KH related projects he's been involved were received favourably (I never said universal aclaim) and didn't flop, that's a fact and why he's competent to be involved in many projects, regardless of how much I like or dislike his desicions.

You were defending him in your previous post specifically with respect to why he has been chosen as a director, when there is zero proof of his competence as a director in the modern gaming landscape. In fact, there happens to be a plethora of evidence that he can be a pain in the ass to work with. He is the new Sakaguchi. The difference is that Sakaguchi actually got shit done and Square fired him as soon as they had an excuse for losing them millions with TSW.

My comment about you worshipping is maybe a little strong, but it's a fact that when people are complaining about Nomura, Tabata or Square Enix in general you tend to jump in to defend Square Enix. You were pretty notorious for it in the XV thread. I'm all for being positive where it's warranted but we should also recognise faults where that's warranted, and not just blindly defend something when the evidence all seems to point in one direction.

It's possible you spend time on other boards where members don't do their due dilligence before commenting on Square Enix, and I'm sure the way you comment comes from a place of frustration at the negativity in the fandom, but I need you to get that the majority of the people who post here (myself included) are well informed of "the facts" and that our interpretation of those "facts" might not lead us to the same conclusions as yours. That's totally fine. It's just a bit rude to imply that a person who thinks Nomura is problematic for development is not considering the facts, when said facts actually back that assertion up.

You are correct to say that games he has been involved with have been positively received. The same is true of hundreds of other Square Enix employees. This tells us nothing as to the reasoning behind his becoming director of the Remake, given that he himself was surprised by it.

Obviously we shouldn't blindly attack Square either. I don't think this situation is entirely Nomura's fault, but as I said previously I definitely think he's a factor.

 

[ForceStealer]

EDIT: Ninja'd. Mostly referring to Sorcerologist's post here

That's not completely false. But we do also tend to overrate the maturity of the games we grew up with, too. They were always targeted to teenagers, and now we're a bunch of old farts.

Inserting a bishie into XII is annoying, but I don't get the impression that it severely altered the course or themes of the game. After all, the chief complaint about Vaan is how unimportant he is to the plot. So I'm not sure they changed very much about the game to get him in. And that was clearly just a play for the Japanese audience, lest the game was much more popular abroad like Metal Gear Solid. Type-0 was regarded as being pretty dark, and XV doesn't exactly go anywhere bright and cheery with its plot. For sequels like X-2, that's cheerier because the shadow that was looming over the world is gone. For things like Crisis Core it's because Zack is an inherently happier character (and he doesn't exactly meet with a Saturday Morning Cartoon end).

As for stagnation/reinvention. For all the things a transition to an action combat system is, how is that NOT reinventing things? On the contrary wouldn't that be more likely to be accused of being reinvented too much? Stagnation isn't the word I would use.

 

[Strangelove]

I have my issues with Tabata aswell, I certainly don't see him as a saviour. The treatment of female characters in the games he's helmed is very questionable and I'm still of the opinion that XV is a half baked mess, no matter how many cutscenes they add in to attempt to pretend it's not.

i was mostly being facetious, except about 'saving' games in the sense of him actually getting things to release.

i've kept myself in the dark about ffxv until they finish releasing stuff and i can just get it in one go, so the most i know about it is how they ended up majorly patching a whole chapter and tabata's weird comment about how girls would ruin the boy's trip dynamic and also whatever the fuck cidney is wearing (pls patch that out).

i thought crisis core and type-0 were generally decent for female characters barring some primarily costume-related complaints about type-0 (emina and cinq specifically).

and then there's the 3rd birthday and i will carry this grudge to my grave.


what i'm trying to say is

matsuno's strong female characters with tabata's record of actually releasing games

 

[Cereal for Dinner]

As an example of what I'm talking about: in Final Fantasy VII, on the trek from Nibelheim to the reactor, one of the grunts disappears after the bridge collapses. Sephiroth then says, "It may sound cold, but we've got no time to search for him."

In Crisis Core, they completely gloss over that fact through a cutesy and contrived stylistic choice that seems to have been inserted for the sole purpose of obfuscation, and never mention the grunt again, because to portray this scene would make Sephiroth look mean and unlikable. And they even take the grunt (sort of) into account, because the grunt was there at the gates and is just not seen afterwards. They also didn't show Sephiroth killing the innocent Nibelheim villagers for the same reason.

They'll always pull their punches when it comes to stuff like this. Maybe it was easier to portray when they were all just a bunch of Legos.

 

[ForceStealer]

Well, it definitely was easier to some things when they were Legos. (And even then sometimes not. But how about some photorealistic chained-up-Celes beating?) But I would be surprised if the photos of the trip being based on the other trooper being lost. Indeed, Sephiroth's line in the original "it may sound cold" already seemed to exist to establish that Sephiroth wasn't evil back then.

 

[Dashell]

CLOUD IS AT E3!!!!

IN SUPER SMASH BROS ULTIMATE!!!!





X

So... Nintendo's conference had more FFVII than, Sony's or Square's? That's more than just a little messed up...


Also I remember hearing a rumor that they had to start the remake from scratch because they switched teams or something. If that's true, that could also be a reason they have nothing to show.

 

[Tashasaurous]

]

CLOUD IS AT E3!!!!

IN SUPER SMASH BROS ULTIMATE!!!!

I'm surprised Square's even letting Nintendo burrow Cloud again for Super Smash Bros. Didn't think that would happen. Well, better than nothing.

Hopefully Cloud will return for KH3 too.

So... Nintendo's conference had more FFVII than, Sony's or Square's? That's more than just a little messed up...

Also I remember hearing a rumor that they had to start the remake from scratch because they switched teams or something. If that's true, that could also be a reason they have nothing to show.

At least we're seeing Cloud again this year.

And yeah, Square's pulled away from CyberConnect2, as I've said, due to the latter not pleasing Square Enix or something. So yeah, it's a saga of both KH3 and FFXV all over again and that's why the Remake's not showing this year.

 

[looneymoon]

I don't think FF has gotten less mature as time has gone on, but I do think they can't get away with showing certain things with the graphical quality. The target demographic has always been teens, and I can understand not wanting to risk the M rating.

As for stagnation/reinvention. For all the things a transition to an action combat system is, how is that NOT reinventing things? On the contrary wouldn't that be more likely to be accused of being reinvented too much? Stagnation isn't the word I would use.

The attempt was made at reinventing, but a lot of the key elements that made Final Fantasies have been rocky in favour of action oriented content. If wanted an action RPG, I would play another series that already does that better.

Maybe stagnation isn't the precise descriptor gameplay wise, but you get my point I'm sure. In the context of the wider gaming world, FF is being left behind. It's not the top dog it was before because there are just better options now.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Also I remember hearing a rumor that they had to start the remake from scratch because they switched teams or something. If that's true, that could also be a reason they have nothing to show.

And yeah, Square's pulled away from CyberConnect2, as I've said, due to the latter not pleasing Square Enix or something. So yeah, it's a saga of both KH3 and FFXV all over again and that's why the Remake's not showing this year.

I have definitely already responded to this rumour being completely bullshit, but I'll quote that poast in here for ease of addressing it again:

Where on Earth did you hear something like that? Just because they pulled development in-house doesn't mean starting from scratch. Also, there was never any indication that the Remake was going to come out this year. What are you on about?

Sorry. Well, usually when they pull out of another developing group, they start right from the beginning. They did pull out from using that other Engine they used for FFXV when they first announced KH3 six years ago and then they moved to Unreal 4 Engine and started it up all over again.

That's not true either. The things that you have to take into account when changing game engine are fundamentally different from what you need to tackle when you're just changing development groups.

If you're changing an entire game engine, you're changing the core driver of what's rendering and building every single asset in the game. It makes it so that you just can't utilize what's already extant and you NEED to rebuild things, because the software that you're moving to is likely fundamentally different in many, many ways – especially if it's an in-house developed engine that doesn't have any migration tools.

If you're just moving who's in charge of a project and pulling something in-house, all of the stuff that's previously been built under contract is still viable, it's also still owned by the parent company, and it's still in a format that can be utilized. So they can use anything that they want, and there's no need to start from scratch whatsoever. Even if they're displeased with the way some things turned out, it's infinitely easier to iterate from an extant model than it is to start from scratch a majority of the time.

There's literally nothing to suggest that SE just trashed everything that CC2 did, and with a project that'd been underway for as long as it had before they parted ways on it, it's basically unfathomable that they'd've just scrapped everything and started over.

X

 

[Random Nobody]

That's not completely false. But we do also tend to overrate the maturity of the games we grew up with, too. They were always targeted to teenagers, and now we're a bunch of old farts.

I don't think "aimed at children" and "written maturely" necessarily conflict with one another. I'd be the first to say that the FF series has never been Toni Morrison, but I also think it's fair to say that there has been a dramatic shift towards empty stylisation and an avoidance of any kind of thematic complexity or depth whatsoever. They could could excise a lot of the older titles' explicit violence (and anyway, don't nobody want to see Cloud beating Aeris..th like the Romans beat Jesus), and still preserve the spirit of the narrative, because it's not the unwillingness to show these things that's responsible for the increasing shallowness of their titles.

 

[leadmyskeptic]

Are we all...in purgatory? Maybe the Remake has been out since 2015, and we're all...we're all just dead.

Beacause we are...a puppet(s)

 

[cold_spirit]

You were defending him in your previous post specifically with respect to why he has been chosen as a director, when there is zero proof of his competence as a director in the modern gaming landscape. In fact, there happens to be a plethora of evidence that he can be a pain in the ass to work with. He is the new Sakaguchi. The difference is that Sakaguchi actually got shit done and Square fired him as soon as they had an excuse for losing them millions with TSW.

My comment about you worshipping is maybe a little strong, but it's a fact that when people are complaining about Nomura, Tabata or Square Enix in general you tend to jump in to defend Square Enix. You were pretty notorious for it in the XV thread. I'm all for being positive where it's warranted but we should also recognise faults where that's warranted, and not just blindly defend something when the evidence all seems to point in one direction.

It's possible you spend time on other boards where members don't do their due dilligence before commenting on Square Enix, and I'm sure the way you comment comes from a place of frustration at the negativity in the fandom, but I need you to get that the majority of the people who post here (myself included) are well informed of "the facts" and that our interpretation of those "facts" might not lead us to the same conclusions as yours. That's totally fine. It's just a bit rude to imply that a person who thinks Nomura is problematic for development is not considering the facts, when said facts actually back that assertion up.

Hold up Lex, I think you're totally out of line for calling out Lucis Caelum/Lulcielid like this. Your comment reads like you're venting about built up frustration over their reputation more than what they said here, which was actually very minor.

I don't know why you're being presumptuous about the other communities Lulcielid is a part of. And to say this is a community informed of "the facts" while the other communities Lulcielid is a part of aren't is pretentious. For example, a post in this topic just today said there's no way XV earned its development cost back. It did. On Day 1. We certainly don't get everything right here either.

What Lulcielid posted isn't even that offensive to warrant a reaction like this from you. They're right after all. Nomura's work has reviewed alright and nothing has failed. I, personally, do count his portable games as part of this modern gaming landscape because portable games ARE part of our modern gaming landscape. Also, we saw a glimpse of his HD work with 0.2: Birth by Sleep, which wasn't half bad.

I get it, this community is hurt because people were expecting something and didn't receive it. Ya'll are looking for a scapegoat. However, let's not witch hunt Nomura and anyone who disagrees. That's just petty.

 

[ForceStealer]

That's not completely false. But we do also tend to overrate the maturity of the games we grew up with, too. They were always targeted to teenagers, and now we're a bunch of old farts.

I don't think "aimed at children" and "written maturely" necessarily conflict with one another. I'd be the first to say that the FF series has never been Toni Morrison, but I also think it's fair to say that there has been a dramatic shift towards empty stylisation and an avoidance of any kind of thematic complexity or depth whatsoever. They could could excise a lot of the older titles' explicit violence (and anyway, don't nobody want to see Cloud beating Aeris..th like the Romans beat Jesus), and still preserve the spirit of the narrative, because it's not the unwillingness to show these things that's responsible for the increasing shallowness of their titles.

That's a good point about the distinction. I'm still not sure I agree that every FF since X, or XII or whatever are entirely shallow and lacking in complex themes. Hell, I think Sazh's story is one of the 'realest' in the franchise. Which was certainly helped by the performance of his English voice actor, but that's still part of it.

 

[leadmyskeptic]

Note: This is long, but I felt the need to toss my penny into the fountain regarding Nomura. If you just want more general RM discussion, go ahead and scroll past my pizzity-pizzost.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Blaming individual people single-handedly for the delay of Remake--and I mean "blame" in the direct, emotional sense, i.e. 'we are frustrated and have been misled, and this is the person we need to direct our anger at, as they are responsible'--is not a particularly useful thing to do, nor does it tend to be accurate in terms of the countless hands, internal politics, and just generally massive machine involved in the development of a huge project like this. That said, I don't think most of the people addressing their concerns with Nomura are doing that; rather, they are doing just what it seems they are...addressing their concerns. Emotions around RM obviously run high, but that doesn't mean pondering the roles of specific individuals in the game's extremely rocky, unusual development (and make no mistake, the complete dearth of significant information for years at a time, the repeated start-stops, ARE unusual, although far from unheard of) is invalid. Especially considering that the dynamics at SE are something the general public has a bit more of a window into compared to many other companies, as well as the big changes it has gone through in the past decade+, this is actually more relevant than it might otherwise be.

So, Nomura. Completely apart from the specific games he's worked on, his art style, etc, let's just look at his position within SE and his tendencies as an actual job, as described by both others as well as himself. For my 2 cents, I'm only going to quote from the FF7 oral history Polygon put out some 17 months ago (an amazing article, easily my favorite piece of FF-related journalism ever).
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Motonori Sakakibara: "(Of Nomura) His standards were extremely high. He was always concerned about the characters' eyes, for example...I don't think he ever gave me a simple approval."
Nomura: "(Responding) I’m a little bit fickle, so I’m not the type of person to work on one thing and focus simply on that. Say, if I’m drawing — I wouldn’t work on one single piece at a time. It would be more like four or five...I might work on different projects to change my mood and get that sort of refresh", [then later, almost as afterthought] "But if there is a deadline, of course I’ll prioritize that."

Hiroshi Kawai: "I might sound a little condescending here, but he seemed like a very dedicated artist back during Final Fantasy 7. I don’t know what about 7 itself, or perhaps it was actually Final Fantasy 8 that changed the tide, but he seemed to become a very different person at that point, where the authority that he gained from Final Fantasy 7 and Final Fantasy 8 got to a point where he became sort of untouchable in a similar vein as Sakaguchi-san. You couldn’t really fight against him."

Further discussion of the many factors that delayed the project ever starting in the past, among them Nomura's schedule/habits, from peers and himself:

Yoshinori Kitase: "He's very, very detail oriented. And he really pushes right up to that final deadline--or past it."
Nomura: (Responding) "That's only when we haven't gotten approval."
Kitase: "Oh? That's funny, I don't remember it being like that before. (Laughs)."

Nomura: "Depending on my schedule, maybe I was too busy to actually tackle the project, or something else would come up. So it’s been around, but it never came to pass. But now that I have a little bit of availability in my schedule, we decided that we wanted to go ahead and kick it off." (Comforting, right?)

Finally, there's a thread running throughout the piece on how Sakaguchi's era was very different, as he's described also as a massively controlling, nigh-unchallengeable leader, but distinct in his use of that power to unify and get things done quickly:

Tatsuya Yoshinari: "(On Sakaguchi) [He was] that powerful leader who really kind of had that aura of leadership and drove everyone forward."

Kazuyuki Hashimoto: "That was why everybody moved quickly. It was so exciting. And after Sakaguchi-san left, no one wanted to take responsibility, so all the decision making needed lots of approvals, which took a long, long time. The company didn’t move very quickly. It suffered from 'big company disease.'"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, I find a lot of this discussion so fascinating and revealing that I could honestly do a breakdown for each and every quote, and make anyone who's actually read this even more bored to tears, but I don't think it's necessary. Even with the trademark Japanese-business politeness and dancing around of negative issues with those who hold more power, higher positions, or seniority, it seems clear in my opinion that Nomura is both
A: An extremely creative, talented dude, and
B: Someone who handing the reins to this project was, is, and will continue to be highly problematic.

 

[Lex]

That's not completely false. But we do also tend to overrate the maturity of the games we grew up with, too. They were always targeted to teenagers, and now we're a bunch of old farts.

I don't think "aimed at children" and "written maturely" necessarily conflict with one another. I'd be the first to say that the FF series has never been Toni Morrison, but I also think it's fair to say that there has been a dramatic shift towards empty stylisation and an avoidance of any kind of thematic complexity or depth whatsoever. They could could excise a lot of the older titles' explicit violence (and anyway, don't nobody want to see Cloud beating Aeris..th like the Romans beat Jesus), and still preserve the spirit of the narrative, because it's not the unwillingness to show these things that's responsible for the increasing shallowness of their titles.

That's a good point about the distinction. I'm still not sure I agree that every FF since X, or XII or whatever are entirely shallow and lacking in complex themes. Hell, I think Sazh's story is one of the 'realest' in the franchise. Which was certainly helped by the performance of his English voice actor, but that's still part of it.

shugguhu raybos

 

[Lex]

You were defending him in your previous post specifically with respect to why he has been chosen as a director, when there is zero proof of his competence as a director in the modern gaming landscape. In fact, there happens to be a plethora of evidence that he can be a pain in the ass to work with. He is the new Sakaguchi. The difference is that Sakaguchi actually got shit done and Square fired him as soon as they had an excuse for losing them millions with TSW.

My comment about you worshipping is maybe a little strong, but it's a fact that when people are complaining about Nomura, Tabata or Square Enix in general you tend to jump in to defend Square Enix. You were pretty notorious for it in the XV thread. I'm all for being positive where it's warranted but we should also recognise faults where that's warranted, and not just blindly defend something when the evidence all seems to point in one direction.

It's possible you spend time on other boards where members don't do their due dilligence before commenting on Square Enix, and I'm sure the way you comment comes from a place of frustration at the negativity in the fandom, but I need you to get that the majority of the people who post here (myself included) are well informed of "the facts" and that our interpretation of those "facts" might not lead us to the same conclusions as yours. That's totally fine. It's just a bit rude to imply that a person who thinks Nomura is problematic for development is not considering the facts, when said facts actually back that assertion up.

Hold up Lex, I think you're totally out of line for calling out Lucis Caelum/Lulcielid like this. Your comment reads like you're venting about built up frustration over their reputation more than what they said here, which was actually very minor.

I don't know why you're being presumptuous about the other communities Lulcielid is a part of. And to say this is a community informed of "the facts" while the other communities Lulcielid is a part of aren't is pretentious. For example, a post in this topic just today said there's no way XV earned its development cost back. It did. On Day 1. We certainly don't get everything right here either.

What Lulcielid posted isn't even that offensive to warrant a reaction like this from you. They're right after all. Nomura's work has reviewed alright and nothing has failed. I, personally, do count his portable games as part of this modern gaming landscape because portable games ARE part of our modern gaming landscape. Also, we saw a glimpse of his HD work with 0.2: Birth by Sleep, which wasn't half bad.

I get it, this community is hurt because people were expecting something and didn't receive it. Ya'll are looking for a scapegoat. However, let's not witch hunt Nomura and anyone who disagrees. That's just petty.

Your interpretation of what I've said is fine and valid - aside from the part about it being out of line. My comment reads like it's built up because that's what it is, I'm calling out a pattern of behaviour rather than this specific post. With that in mind I want to make clear that my reply did not come from a place of frustration or anger at the current situation, it was measured rather than emotional. I was spurred to write that up over the assertion that people are blindly bashing Nomura, which is the part that's incorrect. That's the behaviour pattern I wanted to address and I stand by it. The assertion that I'm somehow taking my frustration out on someone because a game didn't show up at a conference is ridiculous

Yes I'm disappointed, but I'm not angry or frustrated. I was one of the few people telling others to keep their expectations in check after all.

I also don't think there's anything wrong with saying that in general people here tend to have the facts compared to elsewhere, this is also accurate. I understand completely how that could read as pretentious. I didn't say everyone who posts here is 100% right 100% of the time, just that the majority of regular posters tend to read up on a situation before actually posting about it. Elsewhere in the FF fandom (Reddit, GameFAQ's, ResetERA) people just react without actually checking the facts. With a few notable exceptions, our posters are more mature, measured and thoughtful in their responses than elsewhere. Sue me

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

For whatever it's worth, both Lulcielid and myself post on the FFXV subreddit, and the difference between here and there is stark.

 

[Shademp]

My feelings for the remake would be far less pessimistic if Naoki Yoshida was the director. His project management skills are divine, as proven by the way he lead FFXIV from its original shameful state to becoming one of the greatest diamonds in MMORPG history. In interviews Yoshida has shown his perspective as a gamer and his genuine passion for distilling the essence of Final Fantasy. The guy is ultra competent AND lovable, much moreso than any other Square Enix staff I've read about.


@leadmyskeptic

EXCELLENT POST! I thanked it twice in my head.

 

[Lex]

Note:
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Motonori Sakakibara: "(Of Nomura) His standards were extremely high. He was always concerned about the characters' eyes, for example...I don't think he ever gave me a simple approval."
Nomura: "(Responding) I’m a little bit fickle, so I’m not the type of person to work on one thing and focus simply on that. Say, if I’m drawing — I wouldn’t work on one single piece at a time. It would be more like four or five...I might work on different projects to change my mood and get that sort of refresh", [then later, almost as afterthought] "But if there is a deadline, of course I’ll prioritize that."

Hiroshi Kawai: "I might sound a little condescending here, but he seemed like a very dedicated artist back during Final Fantasy 7. I don’t know what about 7 itself, or perhaps it was actually Final Fantasy 8 that changed the tide, but he seemed to become a very different person at that point, where the authority that he gained from Final Fantasy 7 and Final Fantasy 8 got to a point where he became sort of untouchable in a similar vein as Sakaguchi-san. You couldn’t really fight against him."

Further discussion of the many factors that delayed the project ever starting in the past, among them Nomura's schedule/habits, from peers and himself:

Yoshinori Kitase: "He's very, very detail oriented. And he really pushes right up to that final deadline--or past it."
Nomura: (Responding) "That's only when we haven't gotten approval."
Kitase: "Oh? That's funny, I don't remember it being like that before. (Laughs)."

Nomura: "Depending on my schedule, maybe I was too busy to actually tackle the project, or something else would come up. So it’s been around, but it never came to pass. But now that I have a little bit of availability in my schedule, we decided that we wanted to go ahead and kick it off." (Comforting, right?)

Finally, there's a thread running throughout the piece on how Sakaguchi's era was very different, as he's described also as a massively controlling, nigh-unchallengeable leader, but distinct in his use of that power to unify and get things done quickly:

Tatsuya Yoshinari: "(On Sakaguchi) [He was] that powerful leader who really kind of had that aura of leadership and drove everyone forward."

Kazuyuki Hashimoto: "That was why everybody moved quickly. It was so exciting. And after Sakaguchi-san left, no one wanted to take responsibility, so all the decision making needed lots of approvals, which took a long, long time. The company didn’t move very quickly. It suffered from 'big company disease.'"

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^Yup, all of that is what I'm alluding to in my posts. This was speculated for a long time but those interviews confirmed the suspicion that Sakaguchi really was the driving force behind the FF games. It's no coincidence that the first FF to suffer serious dev trouble was FFXII and that's also the first one he's not credited as producer/ director on.

 

[cold_spirit]

Your interpretation of what I've said is fine and valid - aside from the part about it being out of line. My comment reads like it's built up because that's what it is, I'm calling out a pattern of behaviour rather than this specific post.

Is here the best place to do that? Not over PM? When all they said was two observations in a reasonable tone? I’m not buying it.

Listen, I get that we’re proud of this community. I think it’s pretty cool too. However, let’s keep it humble and not foster an “us vs. them” mentality. I’m not okay with bringing down other members for communities they may or may not be a part of.

 

[Lestat]

Not to cause further dispute but if you really felt that way couldn't you have taken this up with lex via pm?

 

[cold_spirit]

Because if Lex is going to publicly call out Lulcielid then I’m going to put up a public defense. Though I see how this is going beyond the topic and am happy to drop it or continue the conversation over PM.

 

[XxREUNIONxX]

That's not completely false. But we do also tend to overrate the maturity of the games we grew up with, too. They were always targeted to teenagers, and now we're a bunch of old farts.

I don't think "aimed at children" and "written maturely" necessarily conflict with one another. I'd be the first to say that the FF series has never been Toni Morrison, but I also think it's fair to say that there has been a dramatic shift towards empty stylisation and an avoidance of any kind of thematic complexity or depth whatsoever. They could could excise a lot of the older titles' explicit violence (and anyway, don't nobody want to see Cloud beating Aeris..th like the Romans beat Jesus), and still preserve the spirit of the narrative, because it's not the unwillingness to show these things that's responsible for the increasing shallowness of their titles.

Though FF7's story may not be as revolutionary or "mature" from my adult standpoint, I believe it still contains many more complex themes and ideas than most FF's that have followed it. FF7 was also a product of it's time. During the late 80's and 90's Japan was putting out some great mature content. Some notable examples would be Akira, Ghost In The Shell, Ninja Scroll, and Evangelion. On the gaming side, Squaresoft released Parasite Eve, Xenogears, and FF Tactics around the same time. We aren't really getting these types of experiences from Japan anymore. It seems that Japanese media as a whole has, in many ways, become more surface level in regards to what it chooses to depict. I believe that the anime/gaming boom that occurred during the late 90's and early 00's pushed these industries to create more content that was perceived to be more marketable to a wide audience. As has been said by many others, there is quite a bit of otaku pandering and watered down story telling these days. In addition, Japan has been misguidedly trying to appeal to a Western audience, more so than ever, with some strange results.

I agree that "aimed at children" and "written maturely" aren't necessarily exclusive. The Miyazaki/Ghibli films are a great example of this. I don't want to see Cloud beating Aeris..th or some of the more offensive depictions of violence against women either. That said, I also don't want to see the darker themes that defined the feel of FF7 overly toned down. There is a proper way to use violence in storytelling. Violence for violence sake can be off-putting for me, but if it is used in service to the overall story and it's themes, it can be used to great effect. I definitely want to see Sephiroth turn Shinra HQ into a slaughterhouse, for example. Scenes such as this help depict the gravity of Sephiroth's threat in the game and really serve to drive home how dangerous his character is and what he is capable of. The editorial piece on this site titled The Potential Of: Jenova and Horror, reminded me how important these darker elements of the game truly are.