FFVII REMAKE CONFIRMED

[LNK]

Heroes absolutely can be entertaining, and most of the time they're entertaining due to the circumstances the plot of the story puts them through. Which includes the role a villain plays in challenging and pushing the hero to be a hero. Cloud is absolutely badass and an entertaining character, and that's in part due to his rivalry and overcoming what Sephiroth throws at him. The fact Cloud had to deal with the circumstance of Sephiroth and his identity being pulled from under him is what made Cloud such a memorable character, along with facing off and vanquishing Sephiroth. Saving the world from that type of enemy, is memorable and entertaining.

Sephiroth in turn is a villain who is entertaining, charismatic and amusing in how he performs his evil. Same with Hojo. Their personalities are strong, memorable and entertaining. They do things you'll never forget, and for reasons you'll never forget. They carve a space for themselves and make every scene they participate in leave an impact.

Compare that with more mundane villains like President Shinra. They're not as entertaining because they're more down the middle. They're terrible people but without nearly the dynamic entertainment value as others. Now, Heidegger and Scarlet are kinda memorable and hilarious in their own way due to their own quirks and unique personalities too.



Umm, yeah he does? Sephiroth is motivated by hatred and desire to ascend beyond humans and reign as a deity supreme. His personality is sadistic, calculating, and cruel. He answers grief and sorrow with cold indifference and sarcastic mocking. He absolutely loathes humans after being built up as a superhero and holds a special place in his heart for Cloud to hate especially

And Sephiroth's motives are far from shallow. Until FFVII, there was never an FF villain that made it a point to destroy in order to create and attain god-hood for a new future. Kefka was an omnicidal maniac. Ex-Death lost his mind and wanted to send existence to the void. Zemus was intent on destroying all of humanity and then existence. Cloud of Darkness wished to send all existence to the void. Emperor Mateus wanted to rule the world until dying and coming back from Hell with a new thirst to destroy all life. And Chaos/Garland wanted a time-loop to live forever and suck the life out of the crystals.

Sephiroth set the stage of having villains aim for something beyond just killing all life, with a far more dynamic characterization. A trait that was built upon by villains like Ultimecia, Vayne, Caius, Ardyn etc.

Wait, I thought Kefka made it a point to destroy in order to create and attain god-hood for a new future? He actually succeeded in doing so.

 

[oty]

I think the characterisation of Sephiroth is what's become really tricky. People who were introduced to FFVII through CC often label Sephiroth as a tragic character, and that if the circunstances were different, he could have become an entirely different person. I won't call it wrong or right, it is a different side of a story that is not really continued. In the original, we only saw a glimpse of that in the flashback, and it is much more sinister than humane (specially because Cloud's mumbo memory stuff is involved) and in AC, he is the monster that people want to avoid at all costs. The difference is that, in the OG and in AC, Sephiroth is deeply connected to Cloud as a character, and it's integral to his development as a whole. BC is a prequel, so it doesnt have that. Instead we see a Sephiroth that even has friends, and that we (as Zack) can even call as a companion.

As I said, it is neither right nor wrong, but I do have an opinion on it. And it's that characterisation, while welcomed, misses the point. In the original, Sephiroth is the unnachievable. The legendary hero who comes back to life and massacres everybody while you were prisoner. We later discover that he has a connection to the main character, and isnt such a hero was we thought. His connection to Cloud is somehing we are all aware of, as the trigger that develops him as the game goes on, providing twists and turns that became memorable moments to all of us. But I would say that, what really makes Sephiroth such an amazing villain, is that he sets the tone thoughout the entire game. He isn't just a final boss. It's mindblowing to see his influence to the story progression, because he really is the link that pushes the characters, and us, to continue. Shrouded in mistery, with a constant feel of a looming presence, that always seem to be two steps ahead. He is the originator of many events that left us intrigued and wondering, and everytime he actually "appears" (if you know what I mean), it's amazing and he always seems to win. You can't say that he steals the show, because in reality he controls it. And not as a puppet master kind of way, but because everything seems to be connected to him, not in a direct way, but that he inadvertently provoked.

In a weird way, FFVII is all about Sephiroth. But not about Sephiroth as a character, but what he causes. The Ancients, the Lifestream, the gang uniting. He sort of is the key that puts it all together. Not in a KH key kind of way btw lmao

I have not seen many games where the villain has such a powerful presence to the game as a whole. To the game's plot and messages, and it's characters. It really is very good lol

 

[Odysseus]

The idea that he was a chill dude before going crazy has a basis in the original game as well, especially in a certain unused scene in the truck on the way to Nibelheim (I swear this isn't just an excuse to plug my mod):

He actually shows concern for grunt!Cloud and has second thoughts about working for Shinra. I think they removed that because they were afraid of humanizing the villain, but left him more one dimensional as a result. Crisis Core would go on to revisit this side of him.

FFVII is all about Sephiroth. But not about Sephiroth as a character, but what he causes. The Ancients, the Lifestream, the gang uniting. He sort of is the key that puts it all together.

Yeah this is exactly how I see it. Sephiroth is arguably the most important character in the story, even though he's barely in it. I might think his motives are shallow, but the ramifications of his actions are astounding. That's what makes him so effective!

 

[Makoeyes987]

Wait, I thought Kefka made it a point to destroy in order to create and attain god-hood for a new future? He actually succeeded in doing so.

No. Kefka was all about destruction for destruction's sake. He wanted to create a monument to non-existence. Kefka ascended to his makesnkft godhood by sucking the magic from the Warring Triad all for the sake of inflicting destruction and misery on people. The only future he saw was death.

As for Sephiroth in FFVII, they certainly showed a human side to him there too. CC merely built upon that frame of reference. His emotional break down and anxiety over his life was a very human and vulnerable reaction. He felt miserable at the prospect he was a monster and was desperate for an answer.

... It's what happened next that's sort of out there.

Sephiroth's latent destructive urges and capacity for unrestrained violence caused him to react to the truth in a most maladaptive and negative way...

 

[youffie]

Yeah, I always thought he was a time bomb waiting to explode. To be fair, growing up in a lab with Hojo breathing down his neck and being used as a mass murdering machine since he hit puberty or something probably didn't help him react in the most well-adjusted way though that's no excuse, of course, especially for what he did long after he died.

 

[MelodicEnigma]

... It's what happened next that's sort of out there.

Sephiroth's latent destructive urges and capacity for unrestrained violence caused him to react to the truth in a most maladaptive and negative way...

It's that part about Sephiroth that I enjoy the most, actually. The "fall" that he has is most intriguing as it really shows the capacity of conflict that humans could, unfortunately, endure. Sometimes when we see certain characters, we often or not don't think about the different shades of who they are outside of what's given to us. I appreciate CC because we got this in extension, thus the affect of Sephiroth snapping and turning into what he did was more impactful for me, especially seeing the inner-conflict he carried for years in everything that being the "perfect SOLDIER hero" carried. It sucks when this happens in real life, of course, but it reminds me of how some people who are close to those who do heinous crimes will be in such denial of such an affair—some people who do the worst things weren't always like that, or even thought of being who they eventually become.

 

[LNK]

No. Kefka was all about destruction for destruction's sake. He wanted to create a monument to non-existence. Kefka ascended to his makesnkft godhood by sucking the magic from the Warring Triad all for the sake of inflicting destruction and misery on people. The only future he saw was death.

As for Sephiroth in FFVII, they certainly showed a human side to him there too. CC merely built upon that frame of reference. His emotional break down and anxiety over his life was a very human and vulnerable reaction. He felt miserable at the prospect he was a monster and was desperate for an answer.

... It's what happened next that's sort of out there.

Sephiroth's latent destructive urges and capacity for unrestrained violence caused him to react to the truth in a most maladaptive and negative way...

Both of them wanted to become a god and destroy all life of the planet they lived on. At the core, they wanted the same

 

[Ite]

All roads lead to Necron.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Both of them wanted to become a god and destroy all life of the planet they lived on. At the core, they wanted the same

Sephiroth and Kefka are completely at odds in terms of their motivations.

Their paths intersect and have similarities but those similarities are superficial.

Yes, both individuals had schemes that involved killing on a massive scale. However, Kefka was murdering people because he was a nihilistic omnicidal madman, who reveled in the sheer thrill of destruction. Kefka's ascent to the title of god of magic was not intended per se, it just happened as a consequence of gaining more and more powers from Espers he drained. He didn't so much pursue being a god, so much as it was the end result of taking more and more magical power so that he could enact his sadistic whims on others. He only lived to destroy and hurt people. He says at much at the end of the FFVI. He only wishes to destroy until everything is destroyed. He sees no purpose or value in life or living.

Sephiroth strives to ascend and become a god. He discovers this potential achievement via the knowledge he absorbs from the Lifestream and decides that is the path he wishes to pursue. He kills for that purpose. (He also kills because he hates humanity and the planet but in regards to his scheme in FFVII, that's his end goal). Sephiroth intends to absorb (or corrupt) all of the Lifestream, make it his own, and then once he's done, perpetuate the cycle and find a new planet and repeat this process.

Sephiroth is perpetuating and building on the cycle Jenova seemingly played out in its existence. Finding worlds, killing all life on them, turning it into a dead husk, riding it as a meteor, and then finding a new world to torment. However, Sephiroth has higher ambitions than predatory slaughter. He wanted to become a god, and absorb that spirit energy, because he discovered that ability.

If Sephiroth were to just be a carbon-copy of Jenova, then yes, Sephiroth would only wish to kill, replicate, and wipe out all life. But Sephiroth's experiences and higher evolution, gives him ambitions beyond just an eldritch alien from space. His predilection for violence and killing however is probably (and this is just a theory of mine) an inherited trait from Jenova, since Jenova is instinctively a murderous, violent creature. His hatred for humanity also probably stems not just from his experiences and discovery of his life being a lie, but also as result of his latent Jenova connection feeding on that negativity and amplifying his impulse to be a cold-blooded killer. Those stressors most likely created a toxic storm that resulted in Sephiroth leaning into his Jenova legacy, embracing it, and building on it to become something more than Jenova. Yet carrying on it's cosmically lethal legacy.

But in the end, Sephiroth's not killing for fun. He's killing for a purpose. And enjoying it along the way.

 

[ForceStealer]

I love how Hojo is really the big bad of the entire game though. He's sort of the "Littlefinger", the guy who kickstarts every major crisis in the game. So while he is a vile person, I love that he exists.

I've always enjoyed that he's both the cause and the solution to all the world's problems. He created Sephiroth, but also made Cloud strong enough to defeat him. In Dirge he summons Omega, but had given Vincent Chaos, and therefore the means to defeat it Very self-sabotaging

All roads lead to Necron.

Dammit.

 

[Rydeen]

Something I never understood about omnicidal god-complex villains, as opposed to villains like, say, Light Yagami, who only want to reign as a God over a culled population, is how can they be recognized as a God if everyone is already dead? How can they ever revel in their status, beyond the memories of their destruction, if no one is around to worship them, especially of their own accord, because the ones that are temporarily alive to worship them are zombies anyway? I guess it's all just a game to him - it seems that way based on his flippant demeanor. But it seems like the omnicidal part of him is stronger than the god complex.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Something I never understood about omnicidal god-complex villains, as opposed to villains like, say, Light Yagami, who only want to reign as a God over a culled population, is how can they be recognized as a God if everyone is already dead? How can they ever revel in their status, beyond the memories of their destruction, if no one is around to worship them, especially of their own accord, because the ones that are temporarily alive to worship them are zombies anyway? I guess it's all just a game to him - it seems that way based on his flippant demeanor. But it seems like the omnicidal part of him is stronger than the god complex.

 

[jazzflower92]

I know people have emphasized how Sephiroth was made to play into Cloud's inferiority complex. However, one could also say that despite the seemingly perfect image that Sephiroth projected, underneath it all he pretty much had no one and again the company that raised him basically saw him as at first a tool to get to the Promised Land and then trained him to be a loyal soldier. Also I have a feeling being a celebrity as well would have added a lot of issues as well. I mean practically worshiped by millions, but in private they don't know the real him and ... that actually sounds similar to Cloud's crisis a bit in the OG. Like Cloud, all we know is an image of Sephiroth, but we don't know what his real self was like. Not the villain he became, but what he was beforehand. I know CC already did that, but before that in the OG we only knew him as the Ultimate Evil who was Op as heck and slaughtered our favorite waifu, Aerith.

I think this is why we see a lot of fan fictions about what would have happened if Sephiroth didn't go crazy and become the villain. Because I do think in another story, Sephiroth could have been a great protagonist of a RPG series or at least an ensemble cast series. I mean see the dormant fan trilogy called Another Side. It has it's own tv trope page and in there Sephiroth is paired with Cissnei. I actually think Sephiroth is fascinating in his pre-evil human self, because he kind of reminds me a bit like Raven from Teen Titans (the 2000's series). On the outside he's cold and unapproachable, while as you dig deeper he becomes more open and friendly to know. Seriously, I think that is the reason why Sephiroth's pre-evil depiction was one of the best things about CC. It wouldn't have the same gravitas if Sephiroth was always an ass and that the reveal of the truth just gradually made him include murder on his menu and a god complex. No, it's much more you feel more at loss at what he has become, because he used to be such a caring person despite the ice in his heart.

I think that's why I love those good AU Sephiroth fictions, because I do think if he did take another path then he could have actually become the hero he had the potential to be and not the manufactured one by Shinra to sell propaganda.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Ah, I used to love Mystwalker's fics.

 

[jazzflower92]

Ah, I used to love Mystwalker's fics.

Yeah, too bad she never finished the trilogy. I know we already have a stoic, badass with a troubled past in the main party (aka Vincent), however, Sephiroth can still offer something unique in an AU where he is good. Also I like in Mystwalker's Another Side story is the fact that Cloud could be the fanboy he used be in canon before Sephiroth burn down his town.

I also wonder why there are no AU's of good Sephiroth and he takes Cloud as an student, despite not being in soldier but just infantry men.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

There must be a fic where Cloud is Sephiroth's padawan. There just has to be.

 

[jazzflower92]

There must be a fic where Cloud is Sephiroth's padawan. There just has to be.

Man, that would be interesting. It would be like Anakin and Asoka's relationship.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Man, that would be interesting. It would be like Anakin and Asoka's relationship.

More sexual tension, though.

 

[Erotic Materia]

For you, maybe.

Why so many people want them to bone?

 

[Odysseus]

Because having sex with the person that ruined your life is fun and healthy, don't you know?

 

[Elisa Maza]

Why so many people want them to bone?

Pretty anime guys.
Obsession w/ each other.

That's more than enough. I've seen blood brothers being shipped just bc of that. Adopted ones? Hoooooo, boy. Enemies? HOOOOOOO, BOY.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

For you, maybe.

Definitely not anything I'm looking for.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Cloud/Sephiroth is very much not my cup of tea, but one can't deny it's the most popular ship in the fandom. (956 fics on AO3, with Cloud/Tifa coming in second at 715 and Zack/Cloud taking bronze with 711). Clearly, it's a relationship that resonates with a lot of people. My guess is the things they like about it (aside from the porn) are the elements of reconciliation, healing, transformation of hate to love, redemption etc... Obsession too, I guess.

 

[jazzflower92]

Because having sex with the person that ruined your life is fun and healthy, don't you know?

It's called Foe Yay. Also again this thread's previous post really show how intense their relationship is. Heck, when it comes down to it Sephiroth can be considered his third option love interest at this point.

Also if they had gotten to know each other personally before he turned evil then he would have actually learned more about him. In so many ways, Sephiroth was like him even though he was this idealized vision of what a warrior should be. I do think it would be interesting young Cloud at first being all fanboying over Sephiroth, before getting to know the real him instead of the poster version of him. In other words, it would have fit in the original's game's message about how people are not always how they portray themselves. I think even before Sephiroth embraced his self-delusions there was a lot obvious things about him never having a true opportunity to fully show what kind of person he was outside of the warrior.

Also pre-evil Sephiroth and Cloud could have bonded over the act that both of them had pretty lonely childhoods, while the former would secretly envy that Cloud had a nurturing mother who was there for him. Seriously, I could so see a pre-evil Sephiroth say in an AU where he actually knew Cloud personally that even with all the fame, ability, and power he has in the world he actually really kind of wants the simple things that he takes for granted. In a way, an AU with Sephiroth mentoring Cloud could have been therapeutic for both of them in a way.

 

[Odysseus]

I don't think I can at all agree with any of that justification for shipping them, but taking on the Clephiroth fandom is not the hill I want to die on, so whatever. I know how fandom is, have your fun.