FFVII REMAKE CONFIRMED

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Fishing in the slum sewers?

 

[Odysseus]

Fishing for Sahagins!

 

[Jairus]

Fishing mini-games. Plural.

 

[Dee]

It and Last Order are sort of the black sheep in the Final Fantasy VII family. They have points that intersect with each other and Crisis Core, and yet CC still contradicts it. Which is funny because of how Last Order went out of the way to mess with one of the best moments from the original game. Kind of the reason a lot of people dislike the Compilation, and honestly it is difficult to disagree with them.



I love how Hojo is really the big bad of the entire game though. He's sort of the "Littlefinger", the guy who kickstarts every major crisis in the game. So while he is a vile person, I love that he exists.

I agree about Hojo. He's a character that you hate and despise. Which makes it more satisfying to beat him in the end. I love his character for the game and lore of FF7

This makes more sense. That he adds to the story, drives the development is understandable. But liking his character and personality just doesn't make sense to me.

 

[LNK]

This makes more sense. That he adds to the story, drives the development is understandable. But liking his character and personality just doesn't make sense to me.

Yeah, I would hope nobody likes any of the villains or bad people for their character or personality. They're all crappy people

 

[Ite]

Yeah, I would hope nobody likes any of the villains or bad people for their character or personality. They're all crappy people

*side-eyes entire Sephiroth fandom...*

 

[oty]

Well actually, the ongoing thing about Sephiroth, which was impulsed by CC, is that he was kind of a "nice guy" before learning the truth, and that Hojo is the real big bad. I don't really have a firm opinion on it, but yea.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I mean, I certainly love Sephiroth and Hojo for their bad characters and personality.

It makes them entertaining and extraordinary villains. Any scene they appear in becomes interesting and dynamic thanks to their presence and actions. They're never boring and bring out the best of the heroes, so to speak.

I mean, Wedge is a great guy but he's definitely not going to be as entertaining or memorable as Hojo on a beach, or Sephiroth on the water alter.

A Sephiroth who isn't being a cruel mass-murdering mind-screwing sadist is just a bishounen from a BL doujin. The evil is part of the charm.

 

[Jairus]

Good guys can't be entertaining or memorable?

 

[Cannon_Fodder]

Good guys can be entertaining or memorable if they have a trait beyond just being good guys. I don't necessarily count stuff like Biggs' obsession with keeping things clean, for example. That's more of a quirk than an interesting trait.

For me, the evil deeds committed by characters doesn't change if I like them or not, and that's mostly because I never get that immersed in a story. Sephiroth didn't kill Aerith, because A) she's a character, not a person, and B) it was the writer who "killed" her, because that's what they felt would be best for the story.

 

[Odysseus]

I mean, does Sephiroth have a character beyond "I am evil, manipulative, and intimidating" originally? His motives are shallow to the point of being near non-existent, in my opinion. Sephiroth is memorable more because of the sort of presence he has more than his personality. Every time he is around its a major event, and his shadow lingers over you when he's not (quite literally after meteor gets summoned.)

 

[Makoeyes987]

Heroes absolutely can be entertaining, and most of the time they're entertaining due to the circumstances the plot of the story puts them through. Which includes the role a villain plays in challenging and pushing the hero to be a hero. Cloud is absolutely badass and an entertaining character, and that's in part due to his rivalry and overcoming what Sephiroth throws at him. The fact Cloud had to deal with the circumstance of Sephiroth and his identity being pulled from under him is what made Cloud such a memorable character, along with facing off and vanquishing Sephiroth. Saving the world from that type of enemy, is memorable and entertaining.

Sephiroth in turn is a villain who is entertaining, charismatic and amusing in how he performs his evil. Same with Hojo. Their personalities are strong, memorable and entertaining. They do things you'll never forget, and for reasons you'll never forget. They carve a space for themselves and make every scene they participate in leave an impact.

Compare that with more mundane villains like President Shinra. They're not as entertaining because they're more down the middle. They're terrible people but without nearly the dynamic entertainment value as others. Now, Heidegger and Scarlet are kinda memorable and hilarious in their own way due to their own quirks and unique personalities too.

I mean, does Sephiroth have a character beyond "I am evil, manipulative, and intimidating" originally? His motives are shallow to the point of being near non-existent, in my opinion. Sephiroth is memorable more because of the sort of presence he has more than his personality. Every time he is around its a major event, and his shadow lingers over you when he's not (quite literally after meteor gets summoned.)

Umm, yeah he does? Sephiroth is motivated by hatred and desire to ascend beyond humans and reign as a deity supreme. His personality is sadistic, calculating, and cruel. He answers grief and sorrow with cold indifference and sarcastic mocking. He absolutely loathes humans after being built up as a superhero and holds a special place in his heart for Cloud to hate especially

And Sephiroth's motives are far from shallow. Until FFVII, there was never an FF villain that made it a point to destroy in order to create and attain god-hood for a new future. Kefka was an omnicidal maniac. Ex-Death lost his mind and wanted to send existence to the void. Zemus was intent on destroying all of humanity and then existence. Cloud of Darkness wished to send all existence to the void. Emperor Mateus wanted to rule the world until dying and coming back from Hell with a new thirst to destroy all life. And Chaos/Garland wanted a time-loop to live forever and suck the life out of the crystals.

Sephiroth set the stage of having villains aim for something beyond just killing all life, with a far more dynamic characterization. A trait that was built upon by villains like Ultimecia, Vayne, Caius, Ardyn etc.

 

[Odysseus]

Sephiroth is motivated by hatred and desire to ascend beyond humans and reign as a deity supreme. His personality is sadistic, calculating, and cruel. He answers grief and sorrow with cold indifference and sarcastic mocking.

Guess I'm the bad guy on this one, and I acknowledge my opinion isn't universal, but none of that is especially interesting or original to me. It's probably because I got to live all the JRPG Villains who were inspired by him before actually playing FFVII for myself. Sephiroth is most interesting in how He relates to Cloud. He's the perfect, cool, beloved super SOLDIER that Cloud could never be, he's the mountain that blocks the path. For me at least, that's all he ever needs to be. His power at the expense of his humanity comes into contrast with Cloud's power gained through his allies. I'm not saying "Sephiroth is a lame edgelord, kefka 4 lyfe" over here, I think he's a brilliant character in how the game uses him. There's a reason all the tropes surrounding him became so cliche later. He's still my favorite FF villain, don't get me wrong.

 

[Kain424]

That's what happens when you're successful.

And to be fair, yeah. Sephiroth's relation to Cloud is intriguing and fun. Here's this anonymous grunt that stopped a super soldier with a god complex. It's cool as hell.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

His obsession with Cloud is what keeps Sephiroth, or at least his malignant will, alive.
I mean in a way, when you think about it, Cloud succeeded in his boyhood dream: he has become the most important person in Sephiroth's world. Possibly the only person.

 

[Odysseus]

I was only speaking in terms of the original game. Advent Children and Crisis Core bring a lot more to the discussion for Sephiroth. I should have clarified, sorry.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Even in terms of the original game, Cloud accomplished that.

The guy who manages to kill you, certainly becomes an important person in your world.

 

[Glaurung]

Good guys can't be entertaining or memorable?

Of course they can! Just look at Zack.

But the thing with bad guys is this: the meassure of a hero is given by the odds they are pitted against. Meaning that a hero is only as great as the villain is. Sephiroth is memorable in every way, from his past as a hero to his downfall. He's liked so much because, as many players got their hands on the game during their teen years, seeing someone snap and become a tortured soul because the old "I shouldn't have been born" excuse instead of "Imma destroy the world because of the lulz" seemed realistic enough. Let's face it: many players resonated with that situation because teenagers' angst and thought that gave him a reasonable excuse to be bitter about everything. That's not to say that we didn't enjoy royally kicking his bishonen ass into oblivion, though






Also, long silver hair and black coat

 

[Elisa Maza]

It's an interestng discussion.

I'm in a place most ppl aren't right now (I guess). Just like with real life, I've come to appreciate and love characters who are kind/genunely good instead of charming/engaging/interesting/clever/whatever else and jerks/assholes/villains.

Once upon a time, when I were younger, I was enthralled by Sephiroth, Rufus, etc. Now, I am all like "Oh, this character does bad things, wow... original. Not. "

There are so many bad guys ruling in real life right now that seeing a character who is simply GOOD is a rarity in fiction... as well as in real life. I find this more touching, more engaging. It's the legitimate escapism to see somebody who is a good person. Reality sucks too much nowadays.

With regards to looks, both in animation and video games, the pretty anime style is everywhere. With such oversaturation in media, looks have lost their glam for me; seen it, paid it, seen even the porn version of it.

That's a long way of me saying that I actively find myself caring more for Wedge and his cute, open, honest and genuine friendly demeanor, rather than anything pretty boys Rufus/Tseng/Sephiroth say/do.

I'm so old.

(...I'm 32.)

 

[oty]

Yup, I think Sephiroth's relation to Cloud has always been such an important part of why both of them are such great characters. I mean, even in AC, which was over the top as you can imagine, it was still so cool seeing them two. And it's one thing we've seen the Remake expanding. I mean hell, it looks like Sephiroth is going to make Cloud's life a living hell.

It's kind of why I don't have a firm opinion on "Sephiroth was actually a chill guy before he discovered the truth" thingy. The way that he acts with Cloud is not from a "good guy turned bad". Sephiroth is the Planet's evil, but more importantly, he is Cloud's ultimate evil. That's why when going to the Crater, Cloud says that his reason is to "settle things up". And why the final battle is literally a direct clash in Cloud's mind, because Sephiroth has been in his mind, for too long. Ever since he started to dream to become something.

It's also a good argument against Zack hardcore fans in my own direct battle against them

 

[youffie]

He may not be the most multi-faced character, but I like Sephiroth because he’s in complete control of the narrative, and you only realize the extent of it on subsequent playthroughs. Some things that we can infer about him are written in a rather indirect way, which is very interesting for a character that steals every scene he’s in with his commanding presence. There are layers if you want to go there, but if you don’t, he still works as an amazing villain for all the reasons that everyone mentioned.

As a character, he’s tricky because we see little of him and he rarely lets his guard down enough to show what he’s really thinking or feeling. In fact, I can only think of one truly revealing moment, and that is when he sees the pods with the makonoids and he says that he always felt he was different from the others, that he was special – kind of like a certain kid from a small town who couldn’t fit in and tried to convince himself that it was because he was better than everyone else. After the things he read in the mansion, I think Sephiroth needed to believe he was above everyone and everything even more, and he decided to own the narrative because he’d never let himself be a victim of it. If he has to destroy the world to bury the idea that he’s just a puppet in someone else’s ploy, so be it.

While it’s true that the Compilation overused the concept to the point of making it over the top at times, I’d say that believing that Sephiroth didn’t care that much about Cloud in the OG is exactly what Sephiroth wants Cloud (and the player) to believe, which suggests to me that maybe that’s not really the case after all. A lowly grunt killing him was the final blow to the identity of a man whose superiority complex had already taken a huge blow and whose last words were Don’t push your luck. Of course, he would have gone with his plan anyway even without Cloud, but I don’t believe for a second that he didn’t relish putting him in his place, making him hit and almost kill Aeris, and generally making him feel like less than nothing. For someone who’s so good at making it look like he’s this godlike force of nature that just happens, that need for self-validation and revenge sounds distinctly human to me, and it’s what arguably leads to his defeat. A fitting end.

 

[Glaurung]

It's an interestng discussion.

I'm in a place most ppl aren't right now (I guess). Just like with real life, I've come to appreciate and love characters who are kind/genunely good instead of charming/engaging/interesting/clever/whatever else and jerks/assholes/villains.

Once upon a time, when I were younger, I was enthralled by Sephiroth, Rufus, etc. Now, I am all like "Oh, this character does bad things, wow... original. Not. "

There are so many bad guys ruling in real life right now that seeing a character who is simply GOOD is a rarity in fiction... as well as in real life. I find this more touching, more engaging. It's the legitimate escapism to see somebody who is a good person. Reality sucks too much nowadays.

With regards to looks, both in animation and video games, the pretty anime style is everywhere. With such oversaturation in media, looks have lost their glam for me; seen it, paid it, seen even the porn version of it.

That's a long way of me saying that I actively find myself caring more for Wedge and his cute, open, honest and genuine friendly demeanor, rather than anything pretty boys Rufus/Tseng/Sephiroth say/do.

I'm so old.

(...I'm 32.)

Don't misunderstand me. Bad guys are only interesting in fiction because it's a safe place to explore our darkness without it hurting us. In real life I'm all for good people. And yes, you have a point that nowadays there are few true heroes (at least in Western media), only anti-heroes who end up doing the right thing just because the script writers thought of it, not because of the nobility of their hearts. Those who are genuinely good are, in turn, almost always put as the comic relief character and the friendzoned guy/gal.

But my point still stands, even though I didn't explaing myself better: I'm always rooting for the good guy to win but, again, heroes will only be as good as their dark counterpart. That's why I put so much weight on the villain of each story. Sephiroth, in the end, manipulates your party into doing his bidding, much like in later titles other villains would do (Caius, Ardyn...). That's not to say that I wish he did win in the end, or that he was a saint before going mad. The novella about Aerith in the Lifestream tells us that, when Sephiroth died, all his good parts merged with the Planet, while the bad emotions were the ones to remain merged with Jenova. Again, he was no saint, but a soldier working for a corporation which wanted to get power if that meant destroying their world. He was human, and that was made him so interesting in the end. How we fall? Why? Can we be redeemed after we get lost in the darkness?

And you are not old. Maybe to fall head over heels for a bishonen and whatever he might do (I overgrew that phase years ago), but you are still young.

Yeah, I'm older still...

 

[LNK]

Heroes absolutely can be entertaining, and most of the time they're entertaining due to the circumstances the plot of the story puts them through. Which includes the role a villain plays in challenging and pushing the hero to be a hero. Cloud is absolutely badass and an entertaining character, and that's in part due to his rivalry and overcoming what Sephiroth throws at him. The fact Cloud had to deal with the circumstance of Sephiroth and his identity being pulled from under him is what made Cloud such a memorable character, along with facing off and vanquishing Sephiroth. Saving the world from that type of enemy, is memorable and entertaining.

Sephiroth in turn is a villain who is entertaining, charismatic and amusing in how he performs his evil. Same with Hojo. Their personalities are strong, memorable and entertaining. They do things you'll never forget, and for reasons you'll never forget. They carve a space for themselves and make every scene they participate in leave an impact.

Compare that with more mundane villains like President Shinra. They're not as entertaining because they're more down the middle. They're terrible people but without nearly the dynamic entertainment value as others. Now, Heidegger and Scarlet are kinda memorable and hilarious in their own way due to their own quirks and unique personalities too.



Umm, yeah he does? Sephiroth is motivated by hatred and desire to ascend beyond humans and reign as a deity supreme. His personality is sadistic, calculating, and cruel. He answers grief and sorrow with cold indifference and sarcastic mocking. He absolutely loathes humans after being built up as a superhero and holds a special place in his heart for Cloud to hate especially

And Sephiroth's motives are far from shallow. Until FFVII, there was never an FF villain that made it a point to destroy in order to create and attain god-hood for a new future. Kefka was an omnicidal maniac. Ex-Death lost his mind and wanted to send existence to the void. Zemus was intent on destroying all of humanity and then existence. Cloud of Darkness wished to send all existence to the void. Emperor Mateus wanted to rule the world until dying and coming back from Hell with a new thirst to destroy all life. And Chaos/Garland wanted a time-loop to live forever and suck the life out of the crystals.

Sephiroth set the stage of having villains aim for something beyond just killing all life, with a far more dynamic characterization. A trait that was built upon by villains like Ultimecia, Vayne, Caius, Ardyn etc.

Wait, I thought Kefka made it a point to destroy in order to create and attain god-hood for a new future? He actually succeeded in doing so.

 

[oty]

I think the characterisation of Sephiroth is what's become really tricky. People who were introduced to FFVII through CC often label Sephiroth as a tragic character, and that if the circunstances were different, he could have become an entirely different person. I won't call it wrong or right, it is a different side of a story that is not really continued. In the original, we only saw a glimpse of that in the flashback, and it is much more sinister than humane (specially because Cloud's mumbo memory stuff is involved) and in AC, he is the monster that people want to avoid at all costs. The difference is that, in the OG and in AC, Sephiroth is deeply connected to Cloud as a character, and it's integral to his development as a whole. BC is a prequel, so it doesnt have that. Instead we see a Sephiroth that even has friends, and that we (as Zack) can even call as a companion.

As I said, it is neither right nor wrong, but I do have an opinion on it. And it's that characterisation, while welcomed, misses the point. In the original, Sephiroth is the unnachievable. The legendary hero who comes back to life and massacres everybody while you were prisoner. We later discover that he has a connection to the main character, and isnt such a hero was we thought. His connection to Cloud is somehing we are all aware of, as the trigger that develops him as the game goes on, providing twists and turns that became memorable moments to all of us. But I would say that, what really makes Sephiroth such an amazing villain, is that he sets the tone thoughout the entire game. He isn't just a final boss. It's mindblowing to see his influence to the story progression, because he really is the link that pushes the characters, and us, to continue. Shrouded in mistery, with a constant feel of a looming presence, that always seem to be two steps ahead. He is the originator of many events that left us intrigued and wondering, and everytime he actually "appears" (if you know what I mean), it's amazing and he always seems to win. You can't say that he steals the show, because in reality he controls it. And not as a puppet master kind of way, but because everything seems to be connected to him, not in a direct way, but that he inadvertently provoked.

In a weird way, FFVII is all about Sephiroth. But not about Sephiroth as a character, but what he causes. The Ancients, the Lifestream, the gang uniting. He sort of is the key that puts it all together. Not in a KH key kind of way btw lmao

I have not seen many games where the villain has such a powerful presence to the game as a whole. To the game's plot and messages, and it's characters. It really is very good lol

 

[Odysseus]

The idea that he was a chill dude before going crazy has a basis in the original game as well, especially in a certain unused scene in the truck on the way to Nibelheim (I swear this isn't just an excuse to plug my mod):

He actually shows concern for grunt!Cloud and has second thoughts about working for Shinra. I think they removed that because they were afraid of humanizing the villain, but left him more one dimensional as a result. Crisis Core would go on to revisit this side of him.

FFVII is all about Sephiroth. But not about Sephiroth as a character, but what he causes. The Ancients, the Lifestream, the gang uniting. He sort of is the key that puts it all together.

Yeah this is exactly how I see it. Sephiroth is arguably the most important character in the story, even though he's barely in it. I might think his motives are shallow, but the ramifications of his actions are astounding. That's what makes him so effective!