SPOILERS FFVII Remake Frustration Expression Thread (*Open Spoilers*)

[Odysseus]

petition for Andrew Hussie to write remake part 2

let's get these go at these multiverse timelines fucking HARD

Dave Strider DID have a bustersword... crossover when?

 

[Claymore]

@looneymoon I feel like that probably needs a spoiler tag or pushed into the Spoiler Forum lol.

 

[looneymoon]

Spoiler

I tagged it. Didn't realize this thread wasn't in the spoiler forum.

Anyways, I decided to make this post here instead of invade other threads with more negative jokes about how dreadfully bad the ending was. All this idea of alt-timeline, multiverse, destiny vagueness just seems like to be done for the sake of having a one up on the audience. Drum up excitement for part 2 by staying one step ahead, and offering nuggets of information that will... possibly, maybe, probaby lead to nowhere in the end.

Or otherwise known as

 

[oty]

I would actually be pretty mad if they just use this whole plot to a "hey gotchA!!" moment(s). Like, seriously. Turn up the heat and bring it.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I would actually be pretty mad if they just use this whole plot to a "hey gotchA!!" moment(s). Like, seriously. Turn up the heat and bring it.

I honestly think it'll be a mix of both. And I don't mind that.

You don't use subversion as a storytelling device to not "gotcha" the audience in some form or fashion.

However, when it's the sole reason for its use, that's when it's shitty. However, I don't think anyone believes this entire exercise and exposition is just a one-off, unfocused and single use plot device that'll never be visited again. Because it was only a tool for fake-out.

For better or worst, there's an intent and follow through here.

 

[looneymoon]

^tbh I think they've already went there :/

anyways I am just popping in here because I really like SuperEyePatchWolf, he makes some great content on YouTube. He has a podcast he does with 2 friends, and goes on a great rant that hits... on every feeling of frustration from when he starts on the spoilers.

It was cathartic for me

Niamh's more critical , as she didn't like it at all, and that starts at 1:15. The whole thing lasts about 30-40 minutes.

 

[hleV]

Spoiler

for everything Cloud says, remember: he is 16 in his head. He was written that way, with care by Nojima. He is 16 and trying to put on a front,

Spoiler

What? Cloud has always been aware of his true age. Just because he was in a mako tube for 4-or-so years doesn't mean he didn't mature mentally. Or is this some confirmed info that Cloud acts as 16?

 

[Rydeen]

Spoiler

What? Cloud has always been aware of his true age. Just because he was in a mako tube for 4-or-so years doesn't mean he didn't mature mentally. Or is this some confirmed info that Cloud acts as 16?

Yes, the new Ultimania interview confirms that was the creator intent.

 

[Eerie]

WHat Ryvius said. To pinpoint it,

Spoiler

even if he is aware of his true age, he has a lack of experience. There are things he knows from general knowledge but usually lacks experiencing them. He's desperatly trying to catch up though!

 

[Ite]

^tbh I think they've already went there :/

anyways I am just popping in here because I really like SuperEyePatchWolf, he makes some great content on YouTube. He has a podcast he does with 2 friends, and goes on a great rant that hits... on every feeling of frustration from when he starts on the spoilers.

It was cathartic for me

Niamh's more critical , as she didn't like it at all, and that starts at 1:15. The whole thing lasts about 30-40 minutes.

That rant was extremely cathartic. I agree with everything he said, especially about Sephiroth's feathers, Jessie, Wall Market, the pacing, Shinra HQ, just everything. Then I went back and heard her complaints and I agreed with everything she said. Story and characters used to be the things I played a Final Fantasy for, and here they're the biggest obstacles for my enjoyment of this battle system. It's all backwards.

 

[Odysseus]

Can I have like, "Remake Frustration Frustration?" I know why people are doing it, but I'm getting so sick of listening to people talk about the game and hearing "It's all Kingdom Hearts Bullshit" or "Nomura's a fucking hack who ruined everything" Like this wasn't a big collaborative effort that involved hundreds of people. I understand not liking the ending, it is the absolute pinnacle of Square Enix divisiveness, but stop dog piling Nomura about everything.

 

[Wol]

Can I have like, "Remake Frustration Frustration?" I know why people are doing it, but I'm getting so sick of listening to people talk about the game and hearing "It's all Kingdom Hearts Bullshit" or "Nomura's a fucking hack who ruined everything" Like this wasn't a big collaborative effort that involved hundreds of people. I understand not liking the ending, it is the absolute pinnacle of Square Enix divisiveness, but stop dog piling Nomura about everything.

I mean, he's the director of the game, and his tropes can be felt in most of his titles.

When someone criticizes the government, it's usually the head that is taken for responsible, even if many decisions are a collaborative effort.

If the janitor doesn't clean the office every time and his boss doesn't say anything, he is responsible.

 

[Odysseus]

If he were directing a bunch of relative nobodies that'd be one thing, but Kitase, Nojima and Toriyama and more have all been his associates and co-collaborators for over 20 years now. I'm sure they had their own weight to push around when it came to the direction of certain things, and I'm almost certain some of the most infamous parts of Remake were their ideas and not his. Did he have to approve of them? Yes. But when you've worked with people for so long, there's an implicit level of trust there. He's not going to second guess everything his colleagues wanted to do.

 

[Lulcielid]

Roles exist for a reason otherwise why would they exist?

 

[Wol]

If he were directing a bunch of relative nobodies that'd be one thing, but Kitase, Nojima and Toriyama and more have all been his associates and co-collaborators for over 20 years now. I'm sure they had their own weight to push around when it came to the direction of certain things, and I'm almost certain some of the most infamous parts of Remake were their ideas and not his. Did he have to approve of them? Yes. But when you've worked with people for so long, there's an implicit level of trust there. He's not going to second guess everything his colleagues wanted to do.

going by the Ultimania, it's implied he had the most influence over the plot, now obviously others suggested things and I'm sure many ideas got rejected till the final product, and others didn't.

Maybe he liked it, I doubt he was obligated to accept the ending story developments (if that mess wasn't his idea in the first place) considering how much of a big deal it is.

 

[Cannon_Fodder]

I'm not a Nomura fan, but the thing that sticks out to me is that the discussion around his role in games usually seems like one a one-way street. Everything that sucks about a game? Specifically Nomura's fault. Everything good about a game? Someone somehow slipped it past Nomura.

 

[Odysseus]

I just wonder how far that goes, then. Do we praise him for all of the game's high points, as well as ridicule him for the low points? He's the director, so most everything had to go through him. Does he get all the credit for all the music, all the graphics, all the writing? Is every last line of code given unto us by the great and terrible Tetsua Nomura? Is Nomura the sole person this project lives and dies on, the rest of the team be damned? He had to approve all the parts people liked too, after all.

I'm just not a fan of people putting all the weight onto one person; frankly, Nomura doesn't deserve all the "credit." This is a problem in the game industry at large, really. People treat Hideo Kojima like a God, failing to talk about anyone else who made the metal gear series what it was. People sure did think Keiji Inafune was Megaman's bread and butter until Mighty No. 9 turned into a total train wreck. These things are not made by one person.

 

[Wol]

I just wonder how far that goes, then. Do we praise him for all of the game's high points, as well as ridicule him for the low points? He's the director, so most everything had to go through him. Does he get all the credit for all the music, all the graphics, all the writing? Is every last line of code given unto us by the great and terrible Tetsua Nomura? Is Nomura the sole person this project lives and dies on, the rest of the team be damned? He had to approve all the parts people liked too, after all.

I'm just not a fan of people putting all the weight onto one person; frankly, Nomura doesn't deserve all the "credit." This is a problem in the game industry at large, really. People treat Hideo Kojima like a God, failing to talk about anyone else who made the metal gear series what it was. People sure did think Keiji Inafune was Megaman's bread and butter until Mighty No. 9 turned into a total train wreck. These things are not made by one person.

Well yes but actually no

It's not like Nomura is the only culprit, but it's not a case they are equally responsible either. There's a hierarchy, and Nomura in this project is at the top overseeing everything.

I would say Nomura should take the most credit, because he said the "ok, go on" in the end, just like when it was proposed to him Sephiroth becoming the final boss.

That counts for everything good, as well. Nomura did a great job, but the ending has so many drastic implications that it soured the experience for many fans.

 

[oty]

But that's the thing. If he is meant to take most credit, we will put the good and the bad in a balance, and it turns out that the game has quantitatively more good than bad, therefore, he did more right stuff than wrong stuff. Everybody's criticism of him should be "hey you did a good job, but you slipped up in X and Y".

But that's not how things work. He doesnt take most of the credit. He takes most of the blame.

 

[looneymoon]

Nomura oversaw the battle system which is objectively great! In terms of game play mechanics, I think Nomura is probably... one of my favourites what with how GOOD this remake is in that respect.

I think the "Nomura bullshit" is because people are familiar enough with his directorial quirks that it isn't unfair to point at him when they show up. In that way, I think he can be described as an auteur. Take that however you will.

Speaking of video game auteurs, I've made the Kojima-Nomura comparison before. They share a similar flavour of absolute ridiculousness, so I don't really take issue when people describe things as "Kojima-bullshit" either. The level of Kingdom Hearts fuckery is only rivaled by Metal Gear Solid. I like Kojima though - I think he has a very honed cinematic eye, and some really interesting quality of ideas that Nomura lacks.

I think it's telling that the most well-received entry into the compilation pre-Remake, was Crisis Core. Which was directed by Tabata.

For the record, I don't think very highly of Nojima's contributions either. If I have to hear a Genesis monologue in a future remake title I'm gonna need like 10 cigarettes and a box of wine.

 

[ForceStealer]

Nojima's inconsistency is striking to me. Obviously they can't all be zingers, but the way he's written my favorite and least favorite stories in the series is crazy.

I know there's a lot to like in FFVIII, but the story seems like so much more of a mess than VII or X. And then, of course with X, you have a really well-paced exploration of a fantasy world and a solid love story at that. And then you have that absolute war crime of a novel. Yes, I know it's suspected he was being a petulant troll, but frankly that doesn't really speak to his strength as a writer.

Most of On the Way to a Smile is really quite good, Genesis less so. The Kids Are All Right tells a great little story in the post-Crisis FF7. Although both that and the X novel have really annoying leads. I get that teenagers suck irl, but most of the main characters in these games are teenagers and aren't so bad. (Then again, FFVIII's cast... )

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

It's impossible for me to judge Nojima as a writer because I can't read Japanese with anything approaching the necessary degree of fluency. That said, he seems to me like a very competent journeyman writer who is more comfortable with writing scripts and dialogues than he is with sustained works of fiction required developed atmosphere, tone, and descriptions. His writing is very pared down to the bone. The script of FFVII tells a complex story in a masterful way. Did he write it, or did he just conceptualise it?

TBH I don't even know what a writer's role in game development is. Apparently he wrote all the Kingdom Hearts games, so why is Nomura getting blamed for the KH stuff that has crept into the Remake?

 

[ForceStealer]

I actually didn't think Nojima wrote KH. Wasn't that that Watanabe guy, with more direct input from Nomura? Interesting.

I think writer in this case is "scenario writer." In which case the writer doesn't really conceptualize things, but takes the directors/producers' concepts and turn them into a script/world. Here's an article that talks about it, though of course it's Western focused so I don't know the specific details of Nojima's process.

 

[Cannon_Fodder]

Speaking of video game auteurs, I've made the Kojima-Nomura comparison before. They share a similar flavour of absolute ridiculousness, so I don't really take issue when people describe things as "Kojima-bullshit" either. The level of Kingdom Hearts fuckery is only rivaled by Metal Gear Solid. I like Kojima though - I think he has a very honed cinematic eye, and some really interesting quality of ideas that Nomura lacks.

I think the Kojima-Nomura comparison is a very fair one to make, and maybe it's just my take, but I think it extends to the reaction to their work as well. Nomura catches a lot of the criticism for his games, while Kojima catches most of the praise. And just like Nomura doesn't deserve all of the criticism, I don't think Kojima deserves all the praise. There's a middle ground that often gets lost in people's response to these creators as individuals rather than as leaders of a team.

I also think there are too many unknowns about development for me to put too much stock into individuals as "video game auteurs." Hell, even the role of director doesn't even seem to be consistent across different studios, much less the director's impact on a game as a whole. I can't even find who directed GTA V and Red Dead Redemption 2, to use Rockstar games as an example.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I'm only repeating what I read on his wikipedia page.

He is best known for writing several installments of Square Enix's Final Fantasy franchise—namely Final Fantasy VII and its spin-offs Advent Children and Crisis Core, Final Fantasy VIII, and Final Fantasy X and X-2—in addition to the Kingdom Hearts series[1] and Glory of Heracles series.