SPOILERS FFVII Remake Frustration Expression Thread (*Open Spoilers*)

ForceStealer

Double Growth
Kojima always seems like he'd really rather be making movies but he's found himself in games. (Like David Cage, though Kojima is certainly on another level than that guy. Kojima has taken that desire and made use of the ways games are different to capitalize on that. As opposed to just making B-movies with button presses.) Nomura, at least, seems to want to be making video games :lol:
 

oty

Pro Adventurer
AKA
ex-soldier boy
Death Stranding was really the game that hit for me that Kojima isnt a god at all. I'm still trying to find sense in that story, and his comments about how "his games are too artistic" didnt help anything at all.
 

Tetsujin

he/they
AKA
Tets
It's impossible for me to judge Nojima as a writer because I can't read Japanese with anything approaching the necessary degree of fluency. That said, he seems to me like a very competent journeyman writer who is more comfortable with writing scripts and dialogues than he is with sustained works of fiction required developed atmosphere, tone, and descriptions. His writing is very pared down to the bone. The script of FFVII tells a complex story in a masterful way. Did he write it, or did he just conceptualise it?

TBH I don't even know what a writer's role in game development is. Apparently he wrote all the Kingdom Hearts games, so why is Nomura getting blamed for the KH stuff that has crept into the Remake?

Nojima fleshes out scenarios I think, but Nomura is pretty much writing the story. I remember this being clarified somewhere in an interview.
 

Wol

None Shall Remember Those Who Do Not Fight
AKA
Rosarian Shield
It's impossible for me to judge Nojima as a writer because I can't read Japanese with anything approaching the necessary degree of fluency. That said, he seems to me like a very competent journeyman writer who is more comfortable with writing scripts and dialogues than he is with sustained works of fiction required developed atmosphere, tone, and descriptions. His writing is very pared down to the bone. The script of FFVII tells a complex story in a masterful way. Did he write it, or did he just conceptualise it?

TBH I don't even know what a writer's role in game development is. Apparently he wrote all the Kingdom Hearts games, so why is Nomura getting blamed for the KH stuff that has crept into the Remake?
https://www.kh13.com/news/tetsuya-n...ames-own-instagram-like-social-network-r2877/

I knew I read somewhere about the degree of Nomura's involvement in the plot of KH (in general), and there it is.

He actually writes a lot of the script (conception, dialogues, etc) and has been doing it for a long time. It doesn't surprise me that the franchise got messier and messier.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Going by what the writers themselves have said on the matter, Nojima is the one writing the dialogue and scenario writing. Kitase, Toriyama and Nomura may plan and produce the overarching story and direction of the narrative but Nojima is the one getting down deep in the story, writing dialogue and scenes for the game itself. Nomura does that work more for Kingdom Hearts, not FFVII. Kingdom Hearts is the series he has 100% lead over.
 

Obsidian Fire

Ahk Morn!
AKA
The Engineer
I think part of why people "blame Nomura" is because by now, Nomura and the team of devs he is working with, have been making games for over 30 years. With visual arts and music, it's possible to look back on people's work and notice trends in the art and music that they make. When that goes on long enough, the creator's style changes. So you get people who like an artists "early work" but not their "later work" or vice-versa. And by now... Nomura and Co. have made enough games where their style has changed (granted, the medium has too, but...) some of that has been for the better or neutral, while other changes haven't been as good.

The other thing this means is that people have enough time and enough works to see across the works of these devs bothers them. And also to see if what bothers them happens more often in stories or less often as time goes by. And one of the things that has... really always been an issue with the works of these creators is things happening because "this looks cool" rather then because they serve the story. But I'd say doing things because "this looks cool" is something that has happened more and more often as time has gone on, rather than less. And not just in the FF franchise. Part of the problem with the Kingdom Hearts franchise is that it runs on "this looks cool" more then it runs on "this happens so the narrative makes sense". And... given who came up with the Kingdom Hearts story... it's really easy to point out that even without the other dev members, Nomura writes stories a certain way. Especially when there's no one else to curb him in. And... now he's the Director of FF7 and one of the main writers... So I think being worried about him taking things in FF7 in the director and/or style of KH is... a valid concern given that KH was the last work for SE where he had a hand in the story.

As far as it goes for the other story writers... one of the things that... concerns me... with their interviews is how focused they are on the individual scenes and not how those scenes fit into the over-all narrative. It was just... really odd... to read that the exchange Cloud and Sephrioth have in the "Edge of Creation" was written before they knew where and when it would happen in the game. Because... where and when that exchange happens would be very important given what Cloud and Sephrioth are talking about! So to know that could have happened somewhere/when else feels like a red flag for the writers not having a good grip on the over-arching narrative. The same way goes for how the Whispers boss fight is talked about. Boss fights do effect how a story is paced overall as well as how they effect the narrative. So to see no mention of "how will putting a boss fight there effect the story" just... I don't know... it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

It just feels like the writers as a whole are a lot better at coming up with individual scenes that pack in a lot of spectacle (physical or emotional) then they are at stringing those scenes together to make for a good narrative. And... I wouldn't say that's new... you see that in FF7 and FF8 (more 8 then 7 though). FF13 suffers from spectacle over story in spades and that story didn't have Nomura working on it! But Kitase and Nojima did have a lot to do with FF13's story. And I think with the Remake, the spectacle is even more obvious and over-the-top and the story suffers as a result. So I wouldn't just say it's Nomura who likes his spectacular scenes, I think it's all the writers. But Nomura beats out FF13's spectacle with KH's spectacle... and... he's the Director. It... very much feels to me that all of them are enabling each other's tendencies, with the story writer with the biggest sense of spectacle is at the head of the project.

Which I think both explains why FF7 turned out the way it did and why I don't like it that much. My biggest problem with FF13 was it was spectacle over story and that's one of my biggest problems here. When it comes to this particular set of writers, their work with less spectacle just... works better for me. Which would be their "early work" not their "later work".

I am not saying spectacle is bad. It is great when designing characters and monsters. Particularly bosses and their animations. I find it very telling that a lot of the most spectacular boss animations in FFXIV all come from bosses that were brought in from FF7 and FF8 (KotR's Final Judgement, Eden's Eternal Breath, Ruby Weapon's 2nd phase or any other time Sephiroth Nael dues Darnes shows up to drop Meteor(s) on us with OWA Rise of the White Raven playing in the background while she's raging about the death of her mother brother). The problem is when the "why" the spectacle is happening is mainly so that the spectacle can happen.
 

Rydeen

In-KWEH-dible
Nomura has always come off as being Ruled by Cool (makes sense since he’s an artist). I don’t really feel like he should ever be given a leadership role in storytelling, and I’m puzzled as to why they keep going along with it. Maybe he’s fun to work with and/or the most extroverted of the group. Nojima’s writing is elegantly succinct and contrasts rather starkly with Nomura’s hamminess, so I get the feeling that he kind of just lets Nomura do what he wants lol.

Regarding the Edge of Creation scene being planned early, I think that could be a good thing in the sense that it was not simply something they threw in there, and that they wrote the rest of the story with the intent for it to fit into that somehow. The execution shows that they did kinda botch the pacing of this metaplot reveal this time around, so I have the feeling they ran out of time. This is one reason why it’s so hard to maintain a metanarrative.
 
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Odysseus

Ninja Potato
AKA
Ody
The crazy plot shit probably arises from their desire to not just retell the same story. They picked a very square enix direction to take the new elements, but it was always going to be a bit different. Your milage may vary on how much you wanted things to be different, but I know those bunch of kooks never would have been satisfied retreading old ground.
 

looneymoon

they/them
AKA
Rishi
I often find myself wondering "was ff7 only so tame because they lacked the technology to make it more over the top?" and I think, despite some rebuttals I've seen, that the answer is a resounding "yes." The same people who made remake made the original.

I think they’d spent so much of their careers under these stipulations that when things started becoming doable they were like “why the fuck not???” The technical capabilities of today are surely the realization of a lifelong dream in and of itself. That wouldn’t explain the crazy plot shit though.

Reminds of how game-changing and influential original run of Ren and Stimpy was...

...but then came Adult Party Cartoon, and everyone saw what Kricfalusi would do without anything holding him back and also the fact that the guy is a total pedophile
 

oty

Pro Adventurer
AKA
ex-soldier boy
To which I ask: Did you really need such crazy device to justify not retelling the same story? Couldnt you just, you know, just plain derail from the OG route? AU FF7 fanfics I read did just that without needing something like the Whispers.
I dont really get that. The Whispers are part of the derail. They didnt come as an afterthought to "explain" the changes. They were created for a purpose, probably multiple. And those purposes inadvertently change the story. If it werent the Whispers, it would have been something else.

Well its not like crazy plot shit is the only option to retell a story, much less shoving a bunch of that crazy plot in the last 1 hour on an otherwise general normal, quasi-realistic story.
I kinda feel like that's the thing. It's them. It's SE. The same people who made the original 23years ago. Crazy plot shit is like their surname. All of them. For better and for worse.
 
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Obsidian Fire

Ahk Morn!
AKA
The Engineer
I don't think we're talking just about the "crazy plot shit" in FF7R though. Once you get past FFX, the plots all three of these guys came up with suffer from a lot of similar issues. FFXIII in particular. It's not quite as crazy as the Whispers... but it's closer to that then it is to the story of FFX when it comes to plot I'd say.
 

Wol

None Shall Remember Those Who Do Not Fight
AKA
Rosarian Shield
I dont really get that. The Whispers are part of the derail. They didnt come as an afterthought to "explain" the changes. They were created for a purpose, probably multiple. And those purposes inadvertently change the story. If it werent the Whispers, it would have been something else.


I kinda feel like that's the thing. It's them. It's SE. The same people who made the original 23years ago. Crazy plot shit is like their surname. All of them. For better amd for worse.
Nah, this is a whole another level, it was too much for me. Maybe if they have had a better setup I would feel differently about them.

If you look at the beginning of FFX is the most craziest shit ever, but it already sets up the tone of what to expect, of what that world entails and these elements are gradually explained in the same game.

What FFVIIR did was shoving dissonant mumbo-jumbo only on the last hour leaving explanation to future entries.
 
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Odysseus

Ninja Potato
AKA
Ody
To which I ask: Did you really need such crazy device to justify not retelling the same story? Couldnt you just, you know, just plain derail from the OG route? AU FF7 fanfics I read did just that without needing something like the Whispers.
I'm not about to justify their decision making. You're perfectly valid in not liking the choices They've made. I'm just speculating why said choices were made.
 

Odysseus

Ninja Potato
AKA
Ody
I'm not sure how I feel about the sequel angle. I don't really want that, but it looks like that might be what they're doing. I'm overall okay with the changes They've made because I love weird confusing bullshit, but I don't know if I like the idea of this being advent children Sephiroth time traveling back. There are enough differences that don't get explained by that for me to think it doesn't really work.
 

LNK

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Nate
I'm not sure how I feel about the sequel angle. I don't really want that, but it looks like that might be what they're doing. I'm overall okay with the changes They've made because I love weird confusing bullshit, but I don't know if I like the idea of this being advent children Sephiroth time traveling back. There are enough differences that don't get explained by that for me to think it doesn't really work.
I still think its the same Sephiroth that we had in the OG. Just now, he's seen visions of the future from the whispers.
 
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