SPOILERS FFVII Remake Open Spoiler Discussion Thread

[KindOfBlue]

How about...developer oversight?

 

[Cat on Mars]

Her guns aren't that big, though. So you'd think it wouldn't be that hard. As I said before, she knows how to use her weapon.

It's not about size, it's about precision. The weight isn't the only problem, you have to take recoil into account and compensate it and double wielding needs a lot of upper body strength and accuracy is really poor.
I'm not even a gun nut and I know that.

ETA: I was saving Jairus' screenshot and my brain had a hiccup and decided to title the file "ShinRa's whorehouse".

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Yeah, there's a reason she's holding on with both hands when we see her firing it.

 

[Jairus]

It's not about size, it's about precision. The weight isn't the only problem, you have to take recoil into account and compensate it and double wielding needs a lot of upper body strength and accuracy is really poor.
I'm not even a gun nut and I know that.

ETA: I was saving Jairus' screenshot and my brain had a hiccup and decided to title the file "ShinRa's whorehouse".

If gun accuracy is poor, how is anyone able to hit anything with one, then? And one would assume that in most cases, both guns would be trained on the same target most of the time anyway. It's not like someone couldn't learn to do it if they really wanted to. And besides, this is a world where a man has a gun for an arm, another man swings around a foot-wide sword like a toothpick, magic exists, and houses fight. Is it really so out there that somebody in that world could learn to fight with two guns if they wanted to?

 

[Cat on Mars]

If gun accuracy is poor, how is anyone able to hit anything with one, then?

Using TWO GUNS aka double wielding has poor accuracy! That's why its use is regarded as inefficient, you're wasting rounds and are at risk of shooting yourself at the slightest distraction!

Is it really so out there that somebody in that world could learn to fight with two guns if they wanted to?

Rufus exists.
But Jessie ain't Rufus.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

If gun accuracy is poor, how is anyone able to hit anything with one, then?

We're talking about the steadiness of the weapon. If your wrist or elbow is jerking around while firing a fully automatic weapon in one hand, you're more likely to endanger everyone except your desired target.

It's not like someone couldn't learn to do it if they really wanted to.

It is like that, though, for most people.

And besides, this is a world where a man has a gun for an arm, another man swings around a foot-wide sword like a toothpick ...

One of those guys has at least been designed to look like a brick wall and the other is augmented by magic and alien DNA.

Is it really so out there that somebody in that world could learn to fight with two guns if they wanted to?

Again, no, if the developers felt it fit their desired aesthetic, they would do it regardless of any other considerations. But they had a repeatedly stated desire to fashion an aesthetic that at least pretends to be realistic (where this particular matter is concerned, that applies until Rufus shows up; and when he does, we need the emphasis for how badass he is).

 

[Jairus]

Using TWO GUNS aka double wielding has poor accuracy! That's why its use is regarded as inefficient, you're wasting rounds and are at risk of shooting yourself at the slightest distraction!

Rufus exists.
But Jessie ain't Rufus.

No, but there's no reason she couldn't learn. And why should he be the only one? Why does he get a pass but she doesn't? It's not unlikely that surviving the plate drop could make her, Biggs, and Wedge a little harder around the edges. If they come back, things should be different about them so it's not the same old same old but something new. Why should their fighting abilities be left of that? Doesn't have to be drastic, but at least distinct from what came before.

We're talking about the steadiness of the weapon. If your wrist or elbow is jerking around while firing a fully automatic weapon in one hand, you're more likely to endanger everyone except your desired target.

Why would it jerk around though, if you're holding both weapons steady?

It is like that, though, for most people.

Then why is it so often shown and used in media?

One of those guys has at least been designed to look like a brick wall and the other is augmented by magic and alien DNA.

Again, no, if the developers felt it fit their desired aesthetic, they would do it regardless of any other considerations. But they had a repeatedly stated desire to fashion an aesthetic that at least pretends to be realistic.

Oh, and the aforementioned characters are somehow realistic?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Why would it jerk around though, if you're holding both weapons steady?

Because recoil. Most people are not strong enough to resist it in the manner you're describing.

Then why is it so often shown and used in media?

Because it looks cool and exciting. In general, you shouldn't be taking what's shown in media as a benchmark for what's plausible.

Oh, and the aforementioned characters are somehow realistic?

I said "pretends to be realistic." Designing Barret to be as ripped and sturdy as he is grants a semblance of "realism" to what he does. Cloud being supernaturally augmented does the same for him.

And as Cat and I both said, Rufus showing up and casually wielding guns with a powerful kickback in one hand tells us instantly how badass he is supposed to be. This, more than anything else, may have been the reason your suggestion wasn't implemented.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

All we can say, Jairus, is that the people who designed Jessie didn't want her to be a two-handed gun wielder. Of course she could have been one. She could have been a fire-eating nunchucks wielding trapeze artist if that's what they'd decided to do with her. But they didn't.

I imagine doubled-headed gil coins are not scarce in Wall Market. Same with loaded dice, marked cards, and doctored pachinko machines.

Hey - that's something FFVIIR is missing! A Casino! Maybe we'll get one at Gold Saucer.

 

[Jairus]

Because it looks cool and exciting. In general, you shouldn't be taking what's shown in media as a benchmark for what's plausible.

FFVIIR is media, though.

And as Cat and I both said, Rufus showing up and casually wielding guns with a powerful kickback in one hand tells us instantly how badass he is supposed to be. This, more than anything else, may have been the reason your suggestion wasn't implemented.

Why? What's that supposed to mean? That only one person in that world can ever do that? And how do we know what kind of kickback Jessie's gun has in comparison? It's smaller than his.

Lic, I'm not saying she should've been one from the start. What I'm saying is that if she returns, there's no reason things about her can't be changed, including her fighting abilities. Having a close brush with death would be an incentive to learn how to grow one's fighting skills to better hit back at those who nearly killed her and her friends (and did kill a lot of others) as well as fight to atone for her past mistakes. There might be other ways she could do that, of course. This was just one possibility. And I just don't get the opposition to having a single line of dialogue or an additional sentence in the in-game description specifying that the coin wasn't unique and that Sam had more than one of them.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

You can't learn to shoot two guns simultaneously in a few weeks or even months. It takes years of practice. Jessie had to brace her gun hand with her other hand to fire just one gun (as most people do). Not even Tseng can shoot two-handed. I doubt Jessie's wrists would be strong enough.

(Gotta wonder how many of the people who lost someone in the Reactor 1 explosion would like to take a pop at Jessie).

I don't think anyone objects to the idea of a line of dialogue in which Sam says something like, "Here, Cloud, you can keep this. Plenty more where that one came from. Maybe it'll bring you luck." Or something like that. It's just that, as far as I can tell, nobody else sees the need for it.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

FFVIIR is media, though.

Yes, one with an aesthetic designed to play at realism.

Why? What's that supposed to mean? That only one person in that world can ever do that?

We don't know how many people can do it. We don't need to because it's not relevant.

What we have is a narrative that is meant to be digested in the order it's presented, and within that order of presentation, Rufus is the first person we see do something like that, thus providing narrative impact. What he does would make less of an impression otherwise.

Lic, I'm not saying she should've been one from the start. What I'm saying is that if she returns, there's no reason things about her can't be changed, including her fighting abilities.

I can't see anyone being too opposed to that if it happens. Character growth and all that. What you asked, though, was about Part 1 --

And if Jessie has multiple guns, why does she only ever fight with one at a time instead using one in each hand?

 

[Cat on Mars]

Oh, I missed this:

And if Jessie has multiple guns, why does she only ever fight with one at a time instead using one in each hand?

For the very same reason I have dozens of brushes but I only use one when I paint: precision and accuracy. I don't need more than one, one does the job. And a paintbrush, even a huge one, doesn't weight nearly the same than a gun does and doesn't even have recoil.

It's smaller than his.

Spoiler: Ba dum tss

Yes, it's called a clit.

I doubt Jessie's wrists would be strong enough.

I doubt it as well. That's why I mentioned "magic martial arts" before, Tifa's strenght is chi/ki magic. There's no way a character could double wield without:
a) Decades of training,
b) enhanced superhuman strength,
c) both.

 

[Jairus]

You can't learn to shoot two guns simultaneously in a few weeks or even months. It takes years of practice. Jessie had to brace her gun hand with her other hand to fire just one gun (as most people do). Not even Tseng can shoot two-handed. I doubt Jessie's wrists would be strong enough.

Even if the guns were specifically modified to be lighter and compensate for recoil? Just asking.

I don't think anyone objects to the idea of a line of dialogue in which Sam says something like, "Here, Cloud, you can keep this. Plenty more where that one came from. Maybe it'll bring you luck." Or something like that. It's just that, as far as I can tell, nobody else sees the need for it.

I understand, it's just as a writer, I see details like that and things that could've been made more clear so as to avoid looking like continuity errors and it bugs me a little because I try to be consistent even in little details in my stories to make sure everything's covered.

Yes, one with an aesthetic designed to play at realism.

Again, it's still media.

We don't know how many people can do it. We don't need to because it's not relevant.

What we have is a narrative that is meant to be digested in the order it's presented, and within that order of presentation, Rufus is the first person we see do something like that, thus providing narrative impact. What he does would make less of an impression otherwise.

I wasn't saying she should've been the first to do it.

can't see anyone being too opposed to that if it happens. Character growth and all that. What you asked, though, was about Part 1 --

I was asking that in response to Ody (I think it was him) saying she might've had more than one gun, which I was trying to say she didn't. I wasn't saying she should've been done differently for Part 1 - I'm fine with how they did her.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

In a fantasy video game, anything is possible. However, IRL I don't think it's possible to make a gun so light. If you look it up, you'll see that most experts say firing two guns at once with any degree of accuracy is well-night impossible. It can be a trick for exhibition shooters, if they are really, really good, but no one would do it in battle.

 

[Stiggie]

Duel wielding guns isn't a thing professionals do, and even if it were, it wouldn't be a thing just anyone did, it's simply a bad idea, so it's completely
unreasonable to expect Jessie to do it. The complaint is as odd as complaining about me eating my food with only a fork in one hand when I clearly have two hands.

Concerning the gun reappearing after the chase, that is an error, caused by the fact that it's so minor that the developers simply don't care, the game is not about gun consistency, they want you to enjoy the story, that's it.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Yes, IRL Rufus Shinra could not possibly wield two rail guns at once, not at all, never mind with any degree of accuracy. He can only do it in the game because he's that awesome and also has to be an boss battle worthy of Cloud. I mean, he is THE Boss, isn't he?

 

[Jairus]

So why do these other characters get a pass regarding the (un)feasibility of their abilities or potential abilities and she doesn't? That is, they're allowed to do things that would be impossible or near so IRL but somehow she isn't. Why the double standard? Either everyone is or no one is, it should be the same for everyone.

And about the gun error, Stiggie, I pointed it out because as a writer, I notice details and inconsistencies like that, and I feel it's something they should've noticed when making those scenes. All they'd have had to do was not show the gun on her again until after the return to the slums, with a line of dialogue somewhere mentioning how she picked up another one to replace the one she lost. Or they could've made it into a short little subquest to be done after the return - she could've asked Cloud to run over to the weapon store to pick one up for her, with some sort of item reward for doing so once he brought her the new gun. Just a couple ideas for how they could've addressed it.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

She's not a Boss. Biggs and Wedge don't have any superpowers, and neither does Barret, really.

 

[Jairus]

It's not about being a boss or having superpowers. It's about merely existing in a world where such abilities are possible. With Barret, his muscular build is an in-game justification for his ability to use his gun-arm the way he does. If she were given some kind of in-game justification for being able to adopt a dual style between Parts 1 and 2, then what would you think?

 

[Makoeyes987]

She's not a Boss. Biggs and Wedge don't have any superpowers, and neither does Barret, really.

.... You sure about that?

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I honestly wouldn't care either way, Jairus. As far as I'm concerned, her role in this story is finished, but if they have some part for her to play in the next game, well, I'm not going to dismiss it out of hand.

I think the likelihood of her reappearing as a live character in Part II is maybe 5%. I think the likelihood of her becoming a dual wielder is 0.01%. The only way it could happen in such a short space of time is if someone like Hojo found her mostly-dead body and turned her into a Deepground experiment, then forced Cloud and his party to fight against her.

edit @ Mako, I don't even know what counts as a superpower in this game any more man. That said, I guess Barret's gun arm attachments can be engineered to do just about anything. A human body is different.

 

[Jairus]

Lic, she's the only one of the trio with connections to the world outside Midgar (Gold Saucer and her contact in Avalanche HQ). And it's not for certain that her parents are dead - there were plateside survivors, as Chapter 15 showed us, so it's possible they were among them. And if they were, then finding a way to save her dad becomes a possible motivation for her to leave Midgar and join the others, as well as to atone for what she feels she did with her bombs. Her story isn't necessarily as done as you think. Seeing Cloud recover from his own mako poisoning would naturally give her hope that her dad could, too, and possibly provide the means to do so. I think her return as a live character is a lot more likely that you think - SE is well aware of how popular she's become, way more than they expected. Do you really think they wouldn't try to capitalize on that?

And my point about abilities is that either everyone in the game should potentially be able to use an ability regardless of its IRL feasibility or no one should.

 

[Rydeen]

I still dislike how OP they made Rufus.

I don't have an opinion either way whether Jessie wields one or two pistols.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Her story might well not be done, if the writers decide it isn't. If they want to make her wield two pistols, then they can do so. I'm simply telling you what I think the odds are of that happening.

I kind of dislike how overpowered they made Rufus, too. One shotgun, skilfully wielded, plus Dark Nation, would have been enough, as in the OG. But - rule of cool.