SPOILERS FFVII Remake Open Spoiler Discussion Thread

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
That's the consequence of making him an endgame boss
Not necessarily. Hojo is an lategame boss too, but they give him a monster form. Heidegger and Scarlet use a robot.

There could very easily be a Rufus bossfight where he's shooting from behind a barrier of some kind, Cloud breaks the barrier thus ending the fight, and Rufus retreats. This doesn't make him look bad, this makes him smart enough to not try to take on an ex-SOLDIER toe to toe.
Does the late-game boss element really play a role here, though, beyond the fight needing to be difficult for the player? Rufus took him on directly like this in the original game too, fired a shotgun one-handed, grabbed the strut of a helicopter to escape, etc.

Cloud ... being shot off the building afterwards takes away from this another little bit, as it becomes 'we could have killed you if we wanted'.
If they noticed he fell at all, I just assumed they thought he did die.
 

Jairus

Author of FFVII: Lifestream & FFVII: Reflections
That's literally all anyone is doing when we say it isn't weird that she isn't seen doing this remarkable thing that most people couldn't do in real life (and probably wouldn't do even if they could).

That applies to her, Biggs, Wedge, Marle -- everyone who isn't a character the fiction wants us to recognize as either ridiculously strong, skilled or biologically abnormal.
What I'm saying is that the fiction and what it wants can change. if she and the guys return in Part 2, they don't have to be quite the same as they were in Part 1. I can see how dualing could be a stretch, but I think it's possible that she could come up with another way to expand her abilities, one that's more in line with her existing strengths - something maybe involving her tech and weapon skills to compensate for her not being as physically strong as the others. The fact that the grenades she used in Chapter 12 were, by her own words, a new design shows that she's willing to expand on what she can do. So I think it's possible that, if she survived, she might continue that trend after her recovery.
 
Jairus, did I say I liked Stiggie's writing because they were attacking you? No. I clearly said I liked reading what they wrote because they write well and think clearly. I imagine they would write equally well and think equally clearly if they were supporting you and I'd still enjoy reading it. I was praising Stiggie, not attacking you. They articulate their ideas clearly and their reasoning is methodical.

PS I certainly do think that if Jessie returns in Part II, she will definitely be powered up in some way. They wouldn't bring her back if they weren't planning to develop her further in some way. There would be no sense in keeping her alive just to give her throwaway cameo.
 
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Jairus

Author of FFVII: Lifestream & FFVII: Reflections
Sorry, Lic. I was irritated and didn't think before I wrote. And I agree that if Jessie and the guys return, they're very likely to get more than a cameo. Like you said, it wouldn't make sense to do it just for that, and it would make people mad if that's all they got after the hints we've been given. So yeah, they'll play a part in the story if they came back, for sure.
 

Stiggie

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Stiggie
Sorry, Lic. I was irritated and didn't think before I wrote. And I agree that if Jessie and the guys return, they're very likely to get more than a cameo. Like you said, it wouldn't make sense to do it just for that, and it would make people mad if that's all they got after the hints we've been given. So yeah, they'll play a part in the story if they came back, for sure.

For my part, I am also not trying to attack you, in fact, I tried my best to make my last reply as non-confrontational as possible.
I did that because I can tell from your replies that you obviously have a passion for FFVII, and WANT to talk about it, and I get that, because I also want to talk about it.
It's also get that you might feel attacked at times, it's easy to feel ganged up on when you're in the minority on an issue.

The reason I wrote that reply then was not to attack your ideas, but to hopefully convince you to change the way you present them a little, because I don't actually think you are as alone as you might think, it's just that the way you write highlights and exacerbates differences.
I can easily imagine someone who agrees with you look at a conversation between you and someone else and go "Actually Jairus, I think ..... means that". And now it feels like you're arguing against two people when really you aren't.

Again, that's not an attack, that's meant as friendly advice because I am here to share my love of FFVII with people who care as much as me, so I WANT to understand their/your stance, and I WANT to be able to talk about things with them/you, even if we disagree on something.
So when I see friction that isn't caused because of some fundamental incompatible difference of opinion, but because the people involved are talking past each other to the point where they're essentially speaking a different language, I think that's a shame.

I assure you, no one actually cares enough about the subject of Jessie dual wielding, or Sam having multiple coins, enough to actually attack you. That feeling is just the result of clashing conversation styles.

And yes, it's also up to us to ask for clarification, conversations ALWAYS come from two sides. But if you are constantly noticing this issue, and not others, then the fact that it mainly affects you indicates that it's probably a result of your writing style that you feel that way.
I generally feel that people ask for clarification when I am not clear, and when I am not clear and people DO misinterpret, I generally don't hold it against them. It's not perfect, sure, no person or forum is.



To clarify my position on Jessie dual wielding.
I believe she uses an uzi right? I am not against Jessie dual wielding Uzis, in fact, dual wielding uzis has always been a favorite look of mine and something I always did in whichever game allowed me to when I was a kid.
Jessie dual wielding uzis could look sick, I am all for it.

BUT, if she doesn't dual wield uzis, then I am fine with that too, not everybody has to dual wield uzis.


Concerning the single line about the non-uniqueness of the coin.
The most important thing about that is it's not just "one line", you never look at these things in isolation, you want to be consistent so what you'd have to ask is "what would it take to 'fix' ALL of these little things?". Otherwise, if they just fix this small clarity issue then people who makes an issue of such things would simply make the same argument over another small point that wasn't clear. In fact, who knows, they might actually have cleared up a bunch of things that weren't clear with offhand sentences, we just don't know since they're not the things we talk about, we always talk about the things that are left that WEREN'T fixed.

If you are adding a "single line" about every little thing, then you'd be adding a thousand lines, and every review of the game would be talking about how the game had horrible dialogue that seemed obsessed with trivialities, sometimes you just have to accept something and move on.

Let's say the developers had listened to your request and added a line where Sam says "here, I got a bunch of them".
Then what would you say to a person arguing with YOU on a forum who says "I just don't get why he has a bunch of them, why would he need a bunch of them? Where did he get them? Why are you against an extra line of dialogue explaining where Sam got his coins for the sake of clarity?"?

On and on it goes, for something that honestly no one cares about, and that doesn't matter, all to explain the mystery of why Sam...has two coins.
 

Jairus

Author of FFVII: Lifestream & FFVII: Reflections
Thanks for the response, Stiggie, and I'll keep it mind. I appreciate you trying to be patient with me. When I write my replies, they tend to sound clear enough to me, I'm not trying to cause any trouble. I'll try to watch more how I respond, though. As for Jessie dualing, like I said above, I feel pretty much the same way - it would look cool, but it doesn't really matter to me if she does or doesn't. I think there are other ways she could find to hold her own alongside the others if SE and the story go that way. Since she doesn't have mako enhancements or other innate abilities, I think she'd rely more on her wits, tech, and weapon skills to make up for not having the raw strength that some of the others do. Her advantage might be in speed, versatility, and adaptability rather than the pure power a more specialized character tends to have.

As we've seen, she can fight both at range with her gun and up close hand to hand (the aerial roundhouse she does in the opening plus Wedge's comment about her beating them up would seem to show that), so being able to switch between melee and ranged attacks on the fly (say through a stance change like Cloud's) without the need to rely on magic or materia to do it could be an asset for her (Cloud and Tifa need spells to reach targets out of range like Sentry Rays, and while Barret has a few melee abilities, he's more built around ranged attacks for the most part). Not that she couldn't use materia, of course - she'd have to have that ability if she were ever playable - but as a more generalized, multifaceted character, her magic probably wouldn't be quite as high as that of a more focused character like Aerith.

But anyway, we don't need to keep going on about that. Just something I thought I'd share.
 

Stiggie

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Stiggie
Thanks for the response, Stiggie, and I'll keep it mind. I appreciate you trying to be patient with me. When I write my replies, they tend to sound clear enough to me, I'm not trying to cause any trouble. I'll try to watch more how I respond, though. As for Jessie dualing, like I said above, I feel pretty much the same way - it would look cool, but it doesn't really matter to me if she does or doesn't. I think there are other ways she could find to hold her own alongside the others if SE and the story go that way. Since she doesn't have mako enhancements or other innate abilities, I think she'd rely more on her wits, tech, and weapon skills to make up for not having the raw strength that some of the others do. Her advantage might be in speed, versatility, and adaptability rather than the pure power a more specialized character tends to have.

As we've seen, she can fight both at range with her gun and up close hand to hand (the aerial roundhouse she does in the opening plus Wedge's comment about her beating them up would seem to show that), so being able to switch between melee and ranged attacks on the fly (say through a stance change like Cloud's) without the need to rely on magic or materia to do it could be an asset for her (Cloud and Tifa need spells to reach targets out of range like Sentry Rays, and while Barret has a few melee abilities, he's more built around ranged attacks for the most part). Not that she couldn't use materia, of course - she'd have to have that ability if she were ever playable - but as a more generalized, multifaceted character, her magic probably wouldn't be quite as high as that of a more focused character like Aerith.

But anyway, we don't need to keep going on about that. Just something I thought I'd share.
She's established as being tech savy, she used grenades, and she has a nimble build, so in that way she instantly reminds me of Rikku from FFX.
So yeah, if she somehow survived and came back I think something like how rikku was portrayed with her mixing of items and other improvisational weaponry would be a good fit.
She'd probably be a bit of a generalist yeah, she was specifically shown to know how to use materia, and while I think she probably wouldn't beat Tifa in speed, Barret in tankiness, or Cloud in Melee combat, I think she'd probably have a higher magic stat than those 3, and a lot higher luck. A bit like Yuffie probably.

That having been said, I hope she is actually dead, because I really liked her character and her death had an impact on me. I was really looking forward, psychotic as it may sound, to the deaths of Biggs, Wedge, and Jessie, and the fact that two seemingly have already survived really rubs me the wrong way. It makes the game less impactful and memorable to me. I know you like Jessie, and I get that, I kinda wish we'd have been able to play as her during this game, but I think bringing her back wouldn't improve the story of the game.
I'm also really unhappy about Zack being alive in some way, despite him being my all time favorite FF protagonist, and more than anything I pray that they're not going to do the dumb thing and make Aerith live (Can't imagine they will).

I'd love to have a Avalanche spinoff game though, since the Turks got one in before crisis. And getting to know more about all three of them plus other characters in something like that would be great. Doubt we'll get one though, I have the feeling that SE will be done with FFVII after the remake, at least for a while.
 

Jairus

Author of FFVII: Lifestream & FFVII: Reflections
I understand wanting Jessie to stay as she is, Stiggie. I just see the potential for having story and character development with her and the others that wasn't possible before, and how it could add to the overall story and make it fresh. There are ways she and the guys could fit it in, plus if her parents survived the plate drop (which is possible since there were plateside survivors), then that still leaves the matter of her dad's condition to address. Not to mention a likely desire to make up for what she thinks she did with her bombs. And there's also her history at the Gold Saucer. Just some possible story threads that could be expanded on and developed if she came back.

Ergo, we're not arguing, just discussing. Actually agreeing in some ways. Comments like yours are not needed and only detract from things. Same with what you said, Ody. And saying Stiggie killed me isn't helpful, either. All it does is agitate me further. You just don't seem the same as you used to be.
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
Rufus took him on directly like this in the original game too, fired a shotgun one-handed, grabbed the strut of a helicopter to escape, etc.

This. I swear people are forgetting the original game here. Rufus always challenged an apparent SOLDIER head-on. And you can talk about Dark Nation all you want but Dark Nation is barely ever even a factor when I play VII. Rufus is the damage dealer and it's him I focus on taking out, ending the battle. In the Remake this made more sense because while Dark Nation is out, you can't even GET to Rufus. And even when it is one on one, Rufus is just excellent at dodging and parrying, he's not just tanking hits the way the Turks do. If Rufus is so far below Cloud, how the hell was he able to escape with no problem in the original?

Similarly, Reno single-handedly fought three people at once, including an apparent SOLDIER, in the original and was merely sidelined from the action for a bit. The remake addressed this by giving him backup. If you guys just want this to be a movie and not a game, I'm not sure how to help you, but keeping it within the realm of a game, these fights frankly made more sense than the do in the original.

Rude being able to fist-fight his way through a guy with a sword the size of his body certainly "beggars belief," but...welcome to Final Fantasy.
 
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kathy202

Pro Adventurer
Rufus didn't feel particularly strong to me in the remake either. He had flashy moves, and a fancy, annoying dodge. The fight took forever, but it was more because I couldn't land hits. I thought that defensive style fit well with his role anyway. (But I still hated that fight.)
 

looneymoon

they/them
AKA
Rishi
Final Fantasy exists in this strange space where at it has roots in cartoonishness, but has committed to a more realistic aesthetic with modern graphics. FF7R does a fun job at melding the cartoonishness of the original with the flashiness of modern hardware. I think there becomes a strange dissonance when you know these characters can do these super human things, but then the writing has scenarios where the point of tension completely ignores that when it's convenient. Conversely, the writing also uses lore-aspects to justify the superhuman feats and its just... honestly, all over the place tbh :/

I have talked about it a lot, but that scene with President Shinra and Barret was... just an embarrassing mess imo. It's probably onenof my most hated scenes in the game for a lot of reasons, and the more I look back on it, the more I find it highlights a lot of the issues I have with the writing in the game as a whole. When the Pres takes out his tiny pistol and points it at Barret's head, the scene turns what should be a serious character moment into high camp. As someone invested in Barret's character writing, having a confrontation between these two people who never got this scene in the OG, this should be a vital moment. It shows just how much Remake clumsily sanitizes the more ugly facets of the FF7 eco-terror plot - the side of the story meant to reflect the reality of our own world. The scene reduces the conflict between these characters to an underwhelming conversation of Barret wanting innocence (way to completely miss the point) and points of 0-stakes action with a tiny gun and a shank that immediately gets undone.

Mess. I hate it.
 
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Wol

None Shall Remember Those Who Do Not Fight
AKA
Rosarian Shield
Final Fantasy exists in this strange space where at it has roots in cartoonishness, but has committed to a more realistic aesthetic with modern graphics. FF7R does a fun job at melding the cartoonishness of the original with the flashiness of modern hardware. I think there becomes a strange dissonance when you know these characters can do these super human things, but then the writing has scenarios where the point of tension completely ignores that when it's convenient. Conversely, the writing also uses lore-aspects to justify the superhuman feats and its just... honestly, all over the place tbh :/

I have talked about it a lot, but that scene with President Shinra and Barret was... just an embarrassing mess imo. It's probably onenof my most hated scenes in the game for a lot of reasons, and the more I look back on it, the more I find it highlights a lot of the issues I have with the writing in the game as a whole. When the Pres takes out his tiny pistol and points it at Barret's head, the scene turns what should be a serious character moment into high camp. As someone invested in Barret's character writing, having a confrontation between these two people who never got this moment in the OG, it shows just how much Remake's clumsy sanitization of the more ugly facets of the FF7 eco-terror plot - the side of the story meant to reflect the reality of our own world. The scene reduces the conflict between these characters to a pithy conversation of Barret wanting innocence (way to completely miss the point) and points of 0-stakes action with a tiny gun and a shank that immediately gets undone.

Mess. I hate it.
Yeah, President Shinra's dialogue in that scene was specially cliche.
 

Stiggie

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Stiggie
I understand wanting Jessie to stay as she is, Stiggie. I just see the potential for having story and character development with her and the others that wasn't possible before, and how it could add to the overall story and make it fresh. There are ways she and the guys could fit it in, plus if her parents survived the plate drop (which is possible since there were plateside survivors), then that still leaves the matter of her dad's condition to address. Not to mention a likely desire to make up for what she thinks she did with her bombs. And there's also her history at the Gold Saucer. Just some possible story threads that could be expanded on and developed if she came back.

Ergo, we're not arguing, just discussing. Actually agreeing in some ways. Comments like yours are not needed and only detract from things. Same with what you said, Ody. And saying Stiggie killed me isn't helpful, either. All it does is agitate me further. You just don't seem the same as you used to be.

It's not really that I want Jessie to stay as she is, like you said, there is story potential there.
It's just that I think the place for that story potential would have been this part of the remake. I think that allowing Jessie to live doesn't ruin her character as much as I think it would greatly detract from the overall experience and impact of the game. I don't think the potential benefits to her character would outweigh those detriments. Btw, did Jessies parents live in the sector 7 residential area? I forget if it was the same plate or a different one.

In general, rewriting something to suddenly include an extra character is rather tricky. Usually characters have a purpose, a reason for being in the story, some role they need to fulfill, etc.
In editing the first thing you do is see if a story still makes sense without a scene, if a scene is unnecessary, you cut it. Characters are similar, you try to avoid spending too much time on unnecessary characters.
And when it comes to bringing back Jessie, we KNOW that she'd be unnecessary past Midgar, simply by the fact that the game has existed before without her.
This can be changed of course, you can rewrite the story to make her crucial to the plot, but it would involve rewriting the entire story around her, and I just don't see them doing that, or wish for them to.

Companies sometimes do that for extremely popular characters, and it rarely works out well I've found. I think if the story had originally been written with Jessies backstory and her parents in mind, there would have been potential there, right now, I think that adding it in retroactively would be too difficult, and too much of a intrusion on the pre-existing story. Jessies backstory serves mostly to make her death more tragic I think, and her father is used as a set up for Clouds fate. That's where it will pay off, not for Jessie.

While I personally don't think Jessie should have been a permanent party member I did really have that feeling with Beatrix in FFIX. I wished for her to be added as a party member for nearly 20 years, and lamented that not making her a permanent party member was a mistake, since she clearly was more relevant to the plot than, say, Amarant. Then someone made an alternate fantasy Mod that added Beatrix as a permanent party member, with skills, a trance, and even added her into cutscenes and I have to say, that really felt like after 20 years my favorite game was finally complete, it felt like it should always have been like that.
I don't think Jessie would feel the same way, I think she'd feel out of place.
It IS a shame that we never got to use her in combat, if we did, then we could easily rely on modders to get her back in. Though I have to admit that if we don't get to fight with Red XIII in the remake, allowing us to fight with Jessie would have been a bit odd, and probably would have upset a few people. It would also make Aeriths death less shocking if we'd have already had a female playable character die before, especially if said female also already had hints of being a potential love interest.

All in all, I don't know man, I get wanting more backstory, I get wanting more Jessie, but unfortunately, I just don't think FFVII: Remake is the best place for it outside of what we've already gotten (and perhaps some flashbacks). I think a spin-off would allow them a lot more freedom to do the team justice without it clashing with the established FFVII storyline.
 

Lestat

He/him
AKA
Ergo, V
Member was warned to refrain from hostile and unnecessary remarks; other members are advised not to reply to this post
Ergo, we're not arguing, just discussing. Actually agreeing in some ways. Comments like yours are not needed and only detract from things. Same with what you said, Ody. And saying Stiggie killed me isn't helpful, either. All it does is agitate me further. You just don't seem the same as you used to be.

Yes, were the problem and detracting from the threads main purpose.

Not the person who literally cannot posting about the same minor character in every. Single.
Post.

There comes a point where you have to honestly take a long hard look at what your posting mate and realise that maybe the reason people are getting sick and tired of Jessie is 100% down to the fact YOU WONT STOP FUCKING TALKING ABOUT HER.
I hadn't even got to the plate fall scene when the game released and I couldn't wait to watch her lifeless corpse fall to the floor purely because of how much you were posting about her.

Also to bring this post back on topic I recently gave my copy of the remake alongside my ps4 to a friend to play. I wasn't a fan of the remake if I'm gonna be honest and didn't want to spoil it for him but literally 24 hours in I'm seeing messages from him with mirrored responses like I had.

Mainly

"who the fuck is this weirdo on a bike"

"Why the fuck am I going to Jessie's house"

Or my favourite

"Please tell me this annoying brat in a lab coat can be killed later in the game."

Fun times
 

Odysseus

Ninja Potato
AKA
Ody
Imagine something with me for a moment.

Cloud stands alone in his scary room at the gold saucer, staring slightly worriedly at the iron maiden fridge in the corner

Then there's a knock at the door.

You walk over to open it, thinking to yourself "oh, time for the AeriTifuffierret date!"

You reach the door, Cloud opens it.

It is Chadley.

"Cloud..." he says, looking slightly embarrassed.

"Watching you fight all this time, observing ever single moment, has made me... feel things."

Cloud is silent, a brick wall couldn't be more still.

"And you remind me so much of this beautiful woman I met one night in midgar. And well..."

Chadley reaches into his lab coat pocket, and produces a small box.

"Cloud, I have purchased this engagement ring..."
 

Obsidian Fire

Ahk Morn!
AKA
The Engineer
In editing the first thing you do is see if a story still makes sense without a scene, if a scene is unnecessary, you cut it. Characters are similar, you try to avoid spending too much time on unnecessary characters.
Part of the problem with a lot of the Remake's writing in general is that since the OG exists already, we know what stuff was added in later and what stuff wasn't. And most of the new writing doesn't fit in well with the original writing. Or at the very least, it isn't seamless. You can tell when you get to parts that aren't as necessary to the story that FF7 was trying to tell in the Remake. They stick out like a sore thumb, slow down the plot and really make you wonder how neccesary they will be to the plot after AVALANCHE leaves Midgar.

There wasn't a lot in OG Midgar (with the exception of Wall Market maybe) that could be taken out to make a tighter narritive at that point in the game. Every scene had a purpose and usually that purpose was to introduce a character to the player (or part of a character's backstory) that would end up being relevant outside of Midgar. There wasn't a lot of fluff or padding.

Now there is more fluff and padding and how... useful that fluff and padding will be to the narrative is probably going to be closely looked at in the coming games. To say that more fluff and padding should be added than already was leaves a bad taste in my mouth given how slow the pacing already is.
 

Lestat

He/him
AKA
Ergo, V
Imagine something with me for a moment.

Cloud stands alone in his scary room at the gold saucer, staring slightly worriedly at the iron maiden fridge in the corner

Then there's a knock at the door.

You walk over to open it, thinking to yourself "oh, time for the AeriTifuffierret date!"

You reach the door, Cloud opens it.

It is Chadley.

"Cloud..." he says, looking slightly embarrassed.

"Watching you fight all this time, observing ever single moment, has made me... feel things."

Cloud is silent, a brick wall couldn't be more still.

"And you remind me so much of this beautiful woman I met one night in midgar. And well..."

Chadley reaches into his lab coat pocket, and produces a small box.

"Cloud, I have purchased this engagement ring..."


Pretty sure this is how nightmares are written XD
 
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