SPOILERS FFVII Remake Open Spoiler Discussion Thread

Ite

Save your valediction (she/her)
AKA
Ite
I still dislike how OP they made Rufus

The combat prowess of Rufus, Reno, and Rude beggared my belief. A one on one fight with Cloud, the narrative implies, ought to be a short affair, no matter how much money you have or how effective a spy you are. Not to say that those boss fights weren’t fun, they were some of my favorites. But there was a huge disconnect between what was happening and what was real, y’know?
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Thats the consequence of a Final Fantasy.

It beggars belief people think most characters aren't some shade of superhuman. :monster: Every FF character is by and large superhuman through some means or dimension. They're not living in a reality where those limits are hard and fast rules. They're fluid. And it's not just VII, it's every Final Fantasy.

Of course the Turks are badass and stronger than a normal person. They ain't SOLDIER but you think they haven't trained and/or been given the greatest magic materia and weaponry Shinra can push out? They wouldn't be black ops if they just could break like any other infantrymen.
 
You know what beggared my belief? That Cloud, mere days after emerging from a coma that lasted five years, should be as good at handling a motorbike as a second class SOLDIER like Roche who specialises in fighting on bike-back. I don't know much about bikes, but I think that takes some skill and practice. I think sometimes even the developers forgot that Cloud isn't really a SOLDIER, just a grunt who did something miraculous. And yeah, I know we can headcanon that Cloud completed high-level motorbike stunt training course when he was in the infantry. Or maybe Jenova cells make you good at everything? Perhaps he should try knitting.

@ Odysseus: we all know that Nojima and Nomura love Rufus best of all
 

Jairus

Author of FFVII: Lifestream & FFVII: Reflections
I'm not saying Jessie has to dual, Lic. It doesn't matter to me if she does or doesn't. I was just using it as an example. I can think of other ways her skillset could be adjusted to build more off her existing abilities if she does return in Part 2. I can also accept it's very hard IRL to dual guns. I don't know much about them, so I won't argue about it. What I was trying to get across is that it felt like some characters were getting a pass as to what people were willing to accept them being able to do while she wasn't, despite all those characters being in the same fantastical world.

As for Cloud, remember Lic that Zack's death happened about two months before the start of the game. So it was more than just a few days since awakening before Cloud got to Midgar, though he admittedly was brain-fried for almost all of that time. But what you said about him still stands, pretty much. I just wanted to point out that he was awake longer than you thought, is all.
 

Rydeen

In-KWEH-dible
Thats the consequence of a Final Fantasy.

It beggars belief people think most characters aren't some shade of superhuman. :monster: Every FF character is by and large superhuman through some means or dimension. They're not living in a reality where those limits are hard and fast rules. They're fluid. And it's not just VII, it's every Final Fantasy.

Of course the Turks are badass and stronger than a normal person. They ain't SOLDIER but you think they haven't trained and/or been given the greatest magic materia and weaponry Shinra can push out? They wouldn't be black ops if they just could break like any other infantrymen.

As a work of fantasy, characters are obviously going to be unrealistically strong and physics is going to be a bit different. Unlike real life, guns can be dual wielded effectively, people can jump abnormally high, swords and guns are not as lethal. There is nothing wrong with that, I just prefer consistency within that system. Rufus should not be stronger than the Turks, and the Turks were also a bit overpowered as well. If it were my choice, they would have some mechanical assistance to maintain the difficulty level, because otherwise it undermines Cloud's power, and having help doesn't necessarily undermine the opposing characters' courage.

But hey, maybe SOLDIERS are not quite as strong relative to the rest of the population as we think they are. One thing I feel certain about, though, is that Rufus should not be stronger than his Turks. It is cheap and makes no sense.

You know what beggared my belief? That Cloud, mere days after emerging from a coma that lasted five years, should be as good at handling a motorbike as a second class SOLDIER like Roche who specialises in fighting on bike-back. I don't know much about bikes, but I think that takes some skill and practice. I think sometimes even the developers forgot that Cloud isn't really a SOLDIER, just a grunt who did something miraculous. And yeah, I know we can headcanon that Cloud completed high-level motorbike stunt training course when he was in the infantry. Or maybe Jenova cells make you good at everything? Perhaps he should try knitting.

@ Odysseus: we all know that Nojima and Nomura love Rufus best of all


Cloud isn't a SOLDIER, but he is very much enhanced. Effectively he's a SOLDIER, barring the fact that he was a bad candidate and not as powerful as the others. This is also a world where people are stronger than they should be in general, so I don't find it too much of a stretch.
 
What I meant is that while having Jenova cells like a SOLDIER gives you super-strength and enhanced senses and abilities, it doesn't necessarily teach you how to ride a motorbike. Unless it somehow does. Then again, later on Cloud does stuff like pilot a submarine despite his complete lack (one assumes) of previous experience.

Jairus, I actually have no idea how long Cloud has been out of his coma. I would love it if someone would point me in the direct of some canon information that would clear this up. He certainly seemed to be pretty much comatose when Tifa found him at the railway station, which is why I always assumed - from having only played the games and not read the Ultimanias - that she found him within 24 hours of Zack's death. But it seems canon says differently?

Ryvius, IIRC Reno does have some mechanical assistance? He has those electricity bombs or manufactured entites or whatever they were. I agree that Rufus should not be stronger than his Turks. I really do think the rule of cool was allowed too much weight there.
 

Rydeen

In-KWEH-dible
What I meant is that while having Jenova cells like a SOLDIER gives you super-strength and enhanced senses and abilities, it doesn't necessarily teach you how to ride a motorbike. Unless it somehow does. Then again, later on Cloud does stuff like pilot a submarine despite his complete lack (one assumes) of previous experience.

Jairus, I actually have no idea how long Cloud has been out of his coma. I would love it if someone would point me in the direct of some canon information that would clear this up. He certainly seemed to be pretty much comatose when Tifa found him at the railway station, which is why I always assumed - from having only played the games and not read the Ultimanias - that she found him within 24 hours of Zack's death. But it seems canon says differently?

Ryvius, IIRC Reno does have some mechanical assistance? He has those electricity bombs or manufactured entites or whatever they were. I agree that Rufus should not be stronger than his Turks. I really do think the rule of cool was allowed too much weight there.

Oops, I misinterpreted that as a reference to the muscular atrophy that happens to IRL people in comas.

Also yeah, Reno and Rude did have a bit of assistance. I still feel like they were a tad too physically strong, but not as bad as Rufus. I feel like with characters such as the Turks and Rufus, they should lean more into strategy, because that is whatthese characters are reknown for - their intellect and tactics, not brute force. Not saying they should be frail. They should still be stronger than normal people.
 

Stiggie

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Stiggie
So why do these other characters get a pass regarding the (un)feasibility of their abilities or potential abilities and she doesn't?
Dude, you're comparing two different things, I'm not saying it's wrong if she did duel wield, I am saying that it's ridiculous to EXPECT that she would.
IF Jessie did duel wield, I'd totally be ok with that because, as you said, there are a bunch of people with ridiculous abilities.
But it doesn't follow logically that 'because ridiculous abilities exist' that therefore 'abilities have to be ridiculous'.


I don't know you that well, but I've noticed a pattern in the way you argue that I don't get.

The original argument here came about because of the question "did Jessie have an extra gun that could explain why she still has one later".
You seemed to argue that that was unlikely since "if she had 2 guns, why didn't she dual wield them".
The counter to that was "Maybe she can't dual wield guns (since most people can't)."
To which you retort "why do these other people get a pass regarding the feasibility of their abilities?".

But that's not how logic works, it's completely backwards, it's not up to us to prove that Jessie can't dual wield, we aren't making any claims about her ability to dual wield, we're just saying that the fact that she DIDN'T dual wield is not evidence that she didn't have two guns. Just because it's theoretically possible that she COULD dual wield doesn't mean that she actually COULD or WOULD.
For some reason, and I don't know whether it's because of malicious intent or because you don't realize you're doing it, you keep twisting the burden of proof to places where it doesn't belong. It's really infuriating because it makes it impossible to actually have a conversation that goes anywhere.



Oh, and before I forget again, about the coins, I have no reason to assume Sam only had the one, and never assumed that he did. If he did, he wouldn't have given it away, it's a trick coin, worthless outside of it material value, dude could easily have dozens. Now to clarify the burden of proof there, I am not making the claim that he DID, I don't have to PROVE that he did. I just have no reason to assume that he DIDN'T, therefore, the fact that he give one away, and had another one later, is not a plothole.
The burden of proof there lies on the person who makes the claim that he has only one.
I am not making a claim either way, but accepting it as a plothole requires me to accept the claim that he has only one, I don't accept that claim as true, that does not require me to prove the opposite claim, I am just saying that as long as that claim has not been disproven, the plothole doesn't exist.
 
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Jairus

Author of FFVII: Lifestream & FFVII: Reflections
Jairus, I actually have no idea how long Cloud has been out of his coma. I would love it if someone would point me in the direct of some canon information that would clear this up. He certainly seemed to be pretty much comatose when Tifa found him at the railway station, which is why I always assumed - from having only played the games and not read the Ultimanias - that she found him within 24 hours of Zack's death. But it seems canon says differently?
According to the official timeline (you can find it here on TLS), Zack died near the start of October, and FFVII started in early December. Cloud could've been in Midgar for weeks before Tifa found him (since it wasn't far from where Zack died), but he never really snapped to his senses until she did. Or she found him not long after he got there and he found other things to do in the time between then and the Reactor 1 mission.

Dude, you're comparing two different things, I'm not saying it's wrong if she did duel wield, I am saying that it's ridiculous to EXPECT that she would.
IF Jessie did duel wield, I'd totally be ok with that because, as you said, there are a bunch of people with ridiculous abilities.
But it doesn't follow logically that 'because ridiculous abilities exist' that therefore 'abilities have to be ridiculous'.

I never said I expected her to do that. You're putting words in my mouth. And I never said abilities had to be ridiculous, either. People misunderstood what I intended with my question and still haven't answered it. They only demeaned the feasibility of what was asked without actually providing any kind of real answer - why she wouldn't have done it if she'd had two. Not saying she had to, it was just a question.

What I was saying also is that she seems to have been singled out here by some people because they apply IRL standards to a possibility for her that they don't apply to other characters. That's the double standard.

But that's not how logic works, it's completely backwards, it's not up to us to prove that Jessie can't dual wield, we aren't making any claims about her ability to dual wield, we're just saying that the fact that she DIDN'T dual wield is not evidence that she didn't have two guns. Just because it's theoretically possible that she COULD dual wield doesn't mean that she actually COULD or WOULD.
For some reason, and I don't know whether it's because of malicious intent or because you don't realize you're doing it, you keep twisting the burden of proof to places where it doesn't belong. It's really infuriating because it makes it impossible to actually have a conversation that goes anywhere.
People in here have made claims about her ability to do that, actually. And I never said she couldn't have had two guns. I was just pointing out the mistake SE made in giving her back her gun so soon with no explanation after she lost it and no possible way she could've retrieved it in the time before the bike ride ended.

Oh, and before I forget again, about the coins, I have no reason to assume Sam only had the one, and never assumed that he did. If he did, he wouldn't have given it away, it's a trick coin, worthless outside of it material value, dude could easily have dozens. Now to clarify the burden of proof there, I am not making the claim that he DID, I don't have to PROVE that he did. I just have no reason to assume that he DIDN'T, therefore, the fact that he give one away, and had another one later, is not a plothole.
The burden of proof there lies on the person who makes the claim that he has only one.
I am not making a claim either way, but accepting it as a plothole requires me to accept the claim that he has only one, I don't accept that claim as true, that does not require me to prove the opposite claim, I am just saying that as long as that claim has not been disproven, the plothole doesn't exist.
Why are you opposed to clarity and a single sentence in the game specifying it's non-uniqueness?
 
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Stiggie

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Stiggie
People misunderstood what I intended
That happens a lot though so I'd really check if the problem might be with the way you're phrasing things, instead of with the way people are reading them.
When I read through your speech patterns it feels extremely slippery, like I am reading a story without a point, and when I try to deduce the point of the story, I get told "I never said that, you're putting words in my mouth".
And yes, I am, I have to, because I don't know what you're trying to accomplish with your replies. In order to do you the courtesy of responding to your questions, ideas, etc, I first have to do labor myself by actively trying to discover what it actually is you're arguing for/against.

It feels like instead of stating your case upfront, so people know what you're trying to say with your replies, the way you respond to replies makes it hard to figure out what you're actually trying to say, and then when people do their best to figure out what you're saying, and apparently fail. You tell them they're putting words in your mouth instead of clarifying your position. Then, when people try to get back on topic, you keep diverting to other topics that are of no meaning to the actual conversation, which again, makes it impossible to actually HAVE a conversation.

In a conversation, both parties should do their best to state their case, and inquire about the other persons case, in such a way that even if they don't agree, that they're at least on the same wavelength, but the way you respond to replies effectively makes that impossible because instead of focusing on one point of agreement or understanding it instead causes the conversation to slip into random directions.


My entire last reply to you was an example of me desperately trying to piece together some concrete framework that could be used to get the conversation back on track. If it's incorrect, clarify your position.


What I was saying also is that she seems to have been singled out here by some people because they apply IRL standards to a possibility for her that they don't apply to other characters. That's the double standard.
How is any of that relevant to whether or not Jessie would have dual wielded guns? It's not, it's just derailing. Who cares if people have a double standard? They might, they might not, but that's not what we were talking about, we were talking about Jessies gun. And if we instead move on to whether or not it's a double standard that people don't think Jessie can dual wield then we'll never get any clarification on anything ever because during that conversation, something else will come up.
Like that the conversation will spiral down until the end of time, without there ever being a consensus reached on anything.

People in here have made claims about her ability to do that, actually
Again, who cares? Those people also never said that if Jessie were to duel wield, it would be bullshit, or anything, they just tried to point out that dual wielding is generally difficult, and that therefore it's not weird if she can't do it. None of those people actually care about whether or not she can dual wield, it was just an aside in the story of whether or not Jessie could have two guns. But by going off on that tangent you are making it feel like you are slippery and conversations with you don't go anywhere.

It's simple.
"IRL, dual wielding doesn't work for shit".
"in FFVII, some people have weird abilities".
"Jesse might not have the weird ability to dual wield".
"Yes, she could have had that, but we don't know that she did so we can't make deductions based on it".
"It's also possible that she simply couldn't, that's not a double standard".

Now in my mind, I am already dreading that you might read that, and start a discussion saying something like "in real life people CAN dual wield because ....."......I don't care, it's not the point of my post, that entire tangent has lost any relevance to whether or not Jessie would have dual wielded guns if she had more than one. That argument should NEVER have gone beyond "some characters don't dual wield, so Jessie simply might not dual wield period".
Anything beyond that is you purposefully or accidentally derailing the conversation, and people going along with it in the hopes that if they simply follow your train of thought, they might be able to eventually tie up all the loose ends so that they can get back on topic.


Why are you opposed to clarity and a single sentence in the game specifying it's non-uniqueness?
Again, derailing, you say I put words in your mouth, but now you're putting words in mine, or thoughts in my head if you want to be pedantic (and I actually HAD to make that distinction because I was honestly worried that you might reply with "I never said you said that I just questioned why you're against it"), can you see how tiresome it could be to have to be that careful when talking to you?

Let's break that question down shall we? So I can explain why you don't talk to people like this.

"Why are you opposed to clarity and a single sentence in the game specifying it's non-uniqueness?"
You are already assuming I am opposed, let's remove the assertion and make it an actual question.

"are you opposed to clarity and a single sentence in the game specifying it's non-uniqueness?"
This would have been a better question, but you're already making a dishonest question here, you are already linking "being against a single sentence" with "being against clarity". This is NOT a good faith way to ask a question, it's a form of begging the question".

Instead you could have asked me "Would you be opposed to single sentence in the game specifying it's non-uniqueness for the sake of clarity? If so, why?".
That question would have felt like an actual attempt at us clarifying our positions, instead of an attack.

And I would respond with "I am not necessarily against it, if it's done naturally, I just don't think it's needed since it's already perfectly clear. He has a new coin later, therefore, it's clear that he has multiple coins. I also think that certain things are so trivial that explaining them all would be a bad idea since it's unnecessary and would bog down the game".
 

Jairus

Author of FFVII: Lifestream & FFVII: Reflections
That happens a lot though so I'd really check if the problem might be with the way you're phrasing things, instead of with the way people are reading them.
When I read through your speech patterns it feels extremely slippery, like I am reading a story without a point, and when I try to deduce the point of the story, I get told "I never said that, you're putting words in my mouth".
And yes, I am, I have to, because I don't know what you're trying to accomplish with your replies. In order to do you the courtesy of responding to your questions, ideas, etc, I first have to do labor myself by actively trying to discover what it actually is you're arguing for/against.

It feels like instead of stating your case upfront, so people know what you're trying to say with your replies, the way you respond to replies makes it hard to figure out what you're actually trying to say, and then when people do their best to figure out what you're saying, and apparently fail. You tell them they're putting words in your mouth instead of clarifying your position. Then, when people try to get back on topic, you keep diverting to other topics that are of no meaning to the actual conversation, which again, makes it impossible to actually HAVE a conversation.
I respond to what people are saying, which is why I tend to quote them first. I'd just like to be asked first what my position actually is for once.

In a conversation, both parties should do their best to state their case, and inquire about the other persons case, in such a way that even if they don't agree, that they're at least on the same wavelength, but the way you respond to replies effectively makes that impossible because instead of focusing on one point of agreement or understanding it instead causes the conversation to slip into random directions.
I have tried, but people keep responding to what they think I'm saying instead of asking me outright.

How is any of that relevant to whether or not Jessie would have dual wielded guns? It's not, it's just derailing. Who cares if people have a double standard? They might, they might not, but that's not what we were talking about, we were talking about Jessies gun. And if we instead move on to whether or not it's a double standard that people don't think Jessie can dual wield then we'll never get any clarification on anything ever because during that conversation, something else will come up.
Like that the conversation will spiral down until the end of time, without there ever being a consensus reached on anything.
No, it's pointing out something that exists and by implication, saying it shouldn't. It's not about whether she can or can't do it, it's about applying the same standards of believability to every character in the game, not just picking and choosing.

Again, who cares? Those people also never said that if Jessie were to duel wield, it would be bullshit, or anything, they just tried to point out that dual wielding is generally difficult, and that therefore it's not weird if she can't do it. None of those people actually care about whether or not she can dual wield, it was just an aside in the story of whether or not Jessie could have two guns. But by going off on that tangent you are making it feel like you are slippery and conversations with you don't go anywhere.
No, I'm simply addressing what they said. What's wrong with caring? I'm not arguing that she has to do that or be able to do it, I even said I can see how it's hard to do IRL. By complaining about how unfeasible they thought it was, they were by proxy saying it was a bad idea.

Again, derailing, you say I put words in your mouth, but now you're putting words in mine, or thoughts in my head if you want to be pedantic (and I actually HAD to make that distinction because I was honestly worried that you might reply with "I never said you said that I just questioned why you're against it"), can you see how tiresome it could be to have to be that careful when talking to you?

Let's break that question down shall we? So I can explain why you don't talk to people like this.

"Why are you opposed to clarity and a single sentence in the game specifying it's non-uniqueness?"
You are already assuming I am opposed, let's remove the assertion and make it an actual question.

"are you opposed to clarity and a single sentence in the game specifying it's non-uniqueness?"
This would have been a better question, but you're already making a dishonest question here, you are already linking "being against a single sentence" with "being against clarity". This is NOT a good faith way to ask a question, it's a form of begging the question".

Instead you could have asked me "Would you be opposed to single sentence in the game specifying it's non-uniqueness for the sake of clarity? If so, why?".
That question would have felt like an actual attempt at us clarifying our positions, instead of an attack.

And I would respond with "I am not necessarily against it, if it's done naturally, I just don't think it's needed since it's already perfectly clear. He has a new coin later, therefore, it's clear that he has multiple coins. I also think that certain things are so trivial that explaining them all would be a bad idea since it's unnecessary and would bog down the game".
No, it's simply asking a question. Not derailing. I could have rephrased it, though. How would one extra sentence either in dialogue or the in-game description bog the game down? It's not as clear as you think, because it's never specified that he has more than one, and not everyone will come to the same conclusions you will. It's simply a matter of addressing something that could be seen as an inconsistency.

Why, Lic? Because he disagreed with me? Comments like that irritate me because that's how it makes me feel.
 

Jairus

Author of FFVII: Lifestream & FFVII: Reflections
Because they're tearing into what I said? That's how it feels, I'm afraid. I feel like I'm being clear enough. I don't know how I can get more clear.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
No, it's pointing out something that exists and by implication, saying it shouldn't. It's not about whether she can or can't do it, it's about applying the same standards of believability to every character in the game, not just picking and choosing.
That's literally all anyone is doing when we say it isn't weird that she isn't seen doing this remarkable thing that most people couldn't do in real life (and probably wouldn't do even if they could).

That applies to her, Biggs, Wedge, Marle -- everyone who isn't a character the fiction wants us to recognize as either ridiculously strong, skilled or biologically abnormal.
 

Clement Rage

Pro Adventurer
I agree re Cloud's biking abilities.

[/quote]That's the consequence of making him an endgame boss [/quote]

Not necessarily. Hojo is an lategame boss too, but they give him a monster form. Heidegger and Scarlet use a robot.

There could very easily be a Rufus bossfight where he's shooting from behind a barrier of some kind, Cloud breaks the barrier thus ending the fight, and Rufus retreats. This doesn't make him look bad, this makes him smart enough to not try to take on an ex-SOLDIER toe to toe.

Instead they made it about Rufus being able to face off against Cloud in hand to hand, which for me ends up making both characters looks worse than they could have. Rufus for engaging someone enhanced and Cloud for not having a more decisive victory (and him being shot off the building afterwards takes away from this another little bit, as it becomes 'we could have killed you if we wanted'.)

I also miss the 'I will rule the world with fear' speech' and letting his dog die. Rufus needs some hard edges.
 

Odysseus

Ninja Potato
AKA
Ody
Well, they also want Rufus to come off as imposing and like he's a serious threat going forward. Him cowering behind cover while taking pot shots doesn't exactly communicate that. Even I'll admit the laser coins are ridiculous, and I'd probably find them abhorrently stupid if not for the fact I think they're hilarious. At some point you're gonna have to reconcile the fact that you're playing an anime game, so realism isn't always a priority.

Square wanted Robert to look cool, so they made him an OP badass.
 
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