SPOILERS FFVII Remake Open Spoiler Discussion Thread

[Jairus]

It's not really that I want Jessie to stay as she is, like you said, there is story potential there.
It's just that I think the place for that story potential would have been this part of the remake. I think that allowing Jessie to live doesn't ruin her character as much as I think it would greatly detract from the overall experience and impact of the game. I don't think the potential benefits to her character would outweigh those detriments. Btw, did Jessies parents live in the sector 7 residential area? I forget if it was the same plate or a different one.

In general, rewriting something to suddenly include an extra character is rather tricky. Usually characters have a purpose, a reason for being in the story, some role they need to fulfill, etc.
In editing the first thing you do is see if a story still makes sense without a scene, if a scene is unnecessary, you cut it. Characters are similar, you try to avoid spending too much time on unnecessary characters.
And when it comes to bringing back Jessie, we KNOW that she'd be unnecessary past Midgar, simply by the fact that the game has existed before without her.
This can be changed of course, you can rewrite the story to make her crucial to the plot, but it would involve rewriting the entire story around her, and I just don't see them doing that, or wish for them to.

Companies sometimes do that for extremely popular characters, and it rarely works out well I've found. I think if the story had originally been written with Jessies backstory and her parents in mind, there would have been potential there, right now, I think that adding it in retroactively would be too difficult, and too much of a intrusion on the pre-existing story. Jessies backstory serves mostly to make her death more tragic I think, and her father is used as a set up for Clouds fate. That's where it will pay off, not for Jessie.

While I personally don't think Jessie should have been a permanent party member I did really have that feeling with Beatrix in FFIX. I wished for her to be added as a party member for nearly 20 years, and lamented that not making her a permanent party member was a mistake, since she clearly was more relevant to the plot than, say, Amarant. Then someone made an alternate fantasy Mod that added Beatrix as a permanent party member, with skills, a trance, and even added her into cutscenes and I have to say, that really felt like after 20 years my favorite game was finally complete, it felt like it should always have been like that.
I don't think Jessie would feel the same way, I think she'd feel out of place.
It IS a shame that we never got to use her in combat, if we did, then we could easily rely on modders to get her back in. Though I have to admit that if we don't get to fight with Red XIII in the remake, allowing us to fight with Jessie would have been a bit odd, and probably would have upset a few people. It would also make Aeriths death less shocking if we'd have already had a female playable character die before, especially if said female also already had hints of being a potential love interest.

All in all, I don't know man, I get wanting more backstory, I get wanting more Jessie, but unfortunately, I just don't think FFVII: Remake is the best place for it outside of what we've already gotten (and perhaps some flashbacks). I think a spin-off would allow them a lot more freedom to do the team justice without it clashing with the established FFVII storyline.

Like I said, I understand where you're coming from. And I didn't say that the entire story had to revolve around her. Just that she could be a part of it, is all. Allow for what you don't know and haven't thought of. There are surely ways she could be written as part of the post-Midgar story that could work and enhance both her story and the overall story.

The problem with a spin-off is that by its nature, Cloud couldn't be part of it, and part of her newfound popularity lies in her interactions with him and how she poked a hole in his hard shell. As for her dad, you don't set up a plot point like that without a plan to specifically resolve that specific point - using her story merely for the sake of other characters makes her come across as nothing more than a tool with nothing of her own.

The remake will NOT be the same as the OG. Familiar scenes and moments will be there, but possibly in an entirely new way and with characters involved who were neither present nor alive for them in the OG (such as the trio in full or part). And you can't say Jessie would feel out of place as a playable member if you haven't actually tried her out yet in that capacity because you have no firsthand experience to tell you one way or the other.

The remake's theme is about defying fate and destiny, so why shouldn't she be given that same chance? They might surprise you with what they do with her if she comes back, so don't be so closed to it.

Yes, were the problem and detracting from the threads main purpose.

Not the person who literally cannot posting about the same minor character in every. Single.
Post.

There comes a point where you have to honestly take a long hard look at what your posting mate and realise that maybe the reason people are getting sick and tired of Jessie is 100% down to the fact YOU WONT STOP FUCKING TALKING ABOUT HER.
I hadn't even got to the plate fall scene when the game released and I couldn't wait to watch her lifeless corpse fall to the floor purely because of how much you were posting about her.

Says the guy who barged into a club thread and started an argument. And I wouldn't talk about her so much here if I felt like I wasn't the only one who ever would. When other people start doing it, start posting art of her in the fanart thread (not group stuff but individual shots), and start not being so opposed to her being given a chance to be in the series past Part 1, then I won't feel like I have to make up the difference and post about her as much. And your being rude doesn't help, so please cut it out. It only has the opposite effect. Ever.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

There are two different questions here, Jairus
1. Is there potentially scope for Jessie to have a role in Remake Part II?
and
2. Do we want her to have a role in Remake Part II?

I don't think anyone can deny the possibility that the developers might come up with creative ways of integrating Jessie into the next part of the story, ways that we haven't even thought of. I certainly wouldn't deny it. Who knows what they could dream up? It could be something fantastic.

Do I want her to have a role in Remake part II? I can't say that I actively don't want to see Jessie appear, although, like Stiggie, I do feel it detracts from emotional impact and narrative significance of the plate drop to have Jessie, Wedge and Biggs live. I'd prefer to see them all die.

I'd much rather see more playing time given to telling us more about the Turks, especially the BC Turks, and the role Rufus played/is playing in Avalanche.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I don't see any problem with her having an expanded role in the remake. For me, the Sector 7 plate drop sequence was thoroughly blundered in Part 1 anyway -- one of the only parts of the remake I felt was a misfire in many areas. The utilization/characterization of the Turks was fantastic, but beyond that, just oy.

Anywho, back to Jessie. Others have speculated Biggs perhaps having a role in the revised Fort Condor arc (which absolutely needs some heavy, heavy revision). Perhaps Jessie -- and Wedge, if alive -- could also be part of this?

Hell, it might make for a cathartic do-over for the Tragic Avalanche Trio to play key roles in the defense of Fort Condor and succeed where they failed before with the Sector 7 pillar defense.

 

[Tetsujin]

Says the guy who barged into a club thread and started an argument. And I wouldn't talk about her so much here if I felt like I wasn't the only one who ever would. When other people start doing it, start posting art of her in the fanart thread (not group stuff but individual shots), and start not being so opposed to her being given a chance to be in the series past Part 1, then I won't feel like I have to make up the difference and post about her as much. And your being rude doesn't help, so please cut it out. It only has the opposite effect. Ever.

People don't care about her that much. It's that simple, man. There doesn't need to be a damn equilibrium between how much characters are liked and posted about either. You don't need to make up for the difference. She doesn't care, she's not real. Everybody else is just beyond irritated at this point.

"Start talking about her more or I will continue!" Yeah no. You don't get to hold this forum hostage with your obssessive behavior. Fuck this.

 

[Lestat]

@Odysseus you realise now you started this train of thought my guess is the end boss isn't gonna be sephinova anymore but a reveal that the stalker robot has been jenova all along studying you so she can beat your ass down with a giant comet.

I STUDIED ALL YOUR DATA CLOUD I HAVE THE HIGH GROUND!

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Folks, I want to point out that the unnecessary personal post on the previous page was tagged with a warning that included an ask that the matter drop there. Things had reached a respectable settling point before that post and there was even some arguably worthwhile discussion going on before and thereafter.

Let's try to get back to discussing the game and not each other now, please. I insist. =/

 

[Odysseus]

Okay, I'm gonna regret saying anything. I just fucking know I am. God damn it, I'm gonna do it anyway.

I do feel it detracts from emotional impact and narrative significance of the plate drop to have Jessie, Wedge and Biggs live. I'd prefer to see them all die.

what "emotional impact?" In the original game the plate drop is never mentioned again after midgar, besides one indirect reference by Reno. The characters don't even dwell on it while they're in midgar, their priorities shift to rescuing Aerith immediately. The remake is what gave it any weight to begin with, only to take it away again by having every single named character besides Jessie survive anyway. Like tres said, the ball has already been dropped. Jessie may as well live just so we can be three for three.

I'd much rather see more playing time given to telling us more about the Turks, especially the BC Turks, and the role Rufus played/is playing in Avalanche.

this is just a personal opinion, but I feel like the Turks have already had more than their share of expansion as it is. I actively wish I knew less about them, even.

I'm gonna go back to ignoring this and being a potato now.

 

[Odysseus]

@Odysseus you realise now you started this train of thought my guess is the end boss isn't gonna be sephinova anymore but a reveal that the stalker robot has been jenova all along studying you so she can beat your ass down with a giant comet.

I STUDIED ALL YOUR DATA CLOUD I HAVE THE HIGH GROUND!

He knows all Cloud's moves, he's the perfect opponent! I love it.

 

[Rydeen]

@Odysseus, you make some good points there.

Regarding the Chadley thing, I think I've finally realized why he never annoyed me at any point. It's because my best friend has a similarly overly polite way of speaking around most people. Another thing I liked about Chadley's existence was how out of place he was. It's almost as if he was there to parody some of SE's other work.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

what "emotional impact?" In the original game the plate drop is never mentioned again after midgar, besides one indirect reference by Reno. The characters don't even dwell on it while they're in midgar, their priorities shift to rescuing Aerith immediately. The remake is what gave it any weight to begin with, only to take it away again by having every single named character besides Jessie survive anyway. Like tres said, the ball has already been dropped. Jessie may as well live just so we can be three for three.

It's odd to disagree so strongly with the first half of a paragraph and agree so strongly with the rest -- with the transition happening abruptly mid-sentence even!

 

[Clement Rage]

Spoiler: On Rufus

It's in how it's framed. Cloud has been setup in the rest of the game as the kind of person who can kill half a garrison's worth of people, and in the next scene wipes out a troop of soldiers by himself.

OG version, obviously is less flashy because of technological limitations. But the first thing Dark Nation does is cast Barrier and MBarrier on Rufus (which persists after he/she dies).

I have an easier time accepting gameplay mechanics than cutscenes. In RE3 (sorry, been playing it today) Nemesis grabbing Jill in gameplay and not instantly killing her is necessary, but Jill being grabbed by the skull in a cutscene is harder for me to buy.

There are ways to make this fight work, but the dramatic cutscenes where they superdramatically playing up Rufus' skills against a man who has been pulling superhuman stunts all game takes away from the encounter. When Cloud's skills have been played up so much so far, Rufus randomly being able to match him starts to take away from them both.

Similarly, Reno single-handedly fought three people at once, including an apparent SOLDIER, in the original and was merely sidelined from the action for a bit. The remake addressed this by giving him backup. If you guys just want this to be a movie and not a game, I'm not sure how to help you, but keeping it within the realm of a game, these fights frankly made more sense than the do in the original.

I agree, which made this fight stand out all the more.

I think on the whole, Remake's expansions have been well chosen and appropriate, but how things play out as they relate to Shinra is where things start to creak.

 

[Odysseus]

It's odd to disagree so strongly with the first half of a paragraph and agree so strongly with the rest -- with the transition happening abruptly mid-sentence even!

Okay I'm being a little unfair to the original I know. The impact was more implied than shown there, and the weight was more for the player to read into.

I still think the remake did it a lot better though. An overlooked scene I love is when Barret gets mad at Kyrie's speech and starts to walk up to her, but Tifa stops him and says nobody will listen to them anyway. There is so much genuine sadness in her voice when she says it. Even if they dropped the ball on the plate drop having physical consequences, they excelled at making it feel real to the characters.

Another thing I liked about Chadley's existence was how out of place he was. It's almost as if he was there to parody some of SE's other work.

This is my biggest reason for loving him too.

 

[Jairus]

People don't care about her that much. It's that simple, man. There doesn't need to be a damn equilibrium between how much characters are liked and posted about either. You don't need to make up for the difference. She doesn't care, she's not real. Everybody else is just beyond irritated at this point.

"Start talking about her more or I will continue!" Yeah no. You don't get to hold this forum hostage with your obssessive behavior. Fuck this.

It wasn't meant as a hostage thing. And you know I didn't yell. I was just saying what I felt and why I do what I sometimes do. I'd just like for her to get some attention from others for once and not just me, and without me having to bring her up first. I just don't see what's wrong with caring. I know she's not real, but I also like to see those who have been traditionally underrepresented and overlooked actually get some attention for a change and not have the same characters hog it all all the time.

She gets a lot of it in other places, way more than she ever used to, but here it's still as if she's the same 5-minute bit character she was in the OG and it seems like she's largely forgotten and pushed aside. But the Cloti club never goes a single day without three to five posts. Sometimes I think it should be closed temporarily so the others can be given more attention for a while.

Anyway, I agree with Ody that the Turks were quite well expanded enough so far. I think there's room for both them and the trio to grow further as the series progresses without diminishing either one.

 

[Cat on Mars]

I'd just like for her to get some attention from others for once and not just me, and without me having to bring her up first.

Have you considered that you're hoarding all the discurse about that particular character and people feel uncomfortable talking about her now?
It's like you had called dibs on her, like Jessie was yours and yours alone.

I want to talk about Jessie, and Wedge, and Biggs, and Marle and the Turks too! Not Chadley, I don't care about him.
Anyway: relax and let nature take its course.

But the Cloti club never goes a single day without three to five posts.

Because people are dumping twitter links to fanart every day. Like it or not, Cloti is popular these days.

Sometimes I think it should be closed temporarily so the others can be given more attention for a while.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

it's still as if she's the same 5-minute bit character she was in the OG and it seems like she's largely forgotten and pushed aside.

I'd argue she still plays this role in the Remake. It's just that every "5-minute bit character" from the OG got much more expanded roles this time. Jessie isn't anything special when it comes to that.

But the Cloti club never goes a single day without three to five posts. Sometimes I think it should be closed temporarily so the others can be given more attention for a while.

Cloti is arguably the pairing that gets the most canon support from the entire FF7 franchise. Cloud and Tifa's relationship with each other is incredibly important to both of them and the narrative puts in a lot of work to make that very apparent to anyone who looks at the story. It is impossible to describe who Cloud is without bringing up Tifa and it's impossible to describe who Tifa is without bringing up Cloud. They are that important to each other and the plot. Of course people are going to make a lot of Cloud/Tifa content.

Calling for the shutting down content someone personally don't like to promote content they do like is the definition of favoritism. It will also not cause people to not make more CloTi content; it will just cause them to call our forum out for playing favorites when we never have before and chase them off for other parts of the internet. It would make everyone on the forum look bad.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Ody, I disagree that the dropping of the S7 plate had no emotional impact in the OG. It has a huge emotional impact on the player - at least, on this player, but I'm pretty sure I'm not alone. It has an impact because people we know, die. Yes, in the Remake people also die, but nobody we know. We have to think for a bit before we can name any of the NPCs who don't reappear after the plate drop. And so, while intellectually we understand that it was an atrocity, we don't feel it in our hearts. At least, I didn't. I really felt the teeth of that crucial event were drawn. (I'm not interested in arguing here about whether or not that's the case; I'm merely stating the fact of how I personally reacted to it).

The event also has a lingering emotional effect on Barret and Tifa. They are grief-stricken for the loss of their friends and bear the guilt of knowing that they set the chain of events in motion which ended in the annihilation of Sector 7. Tifa even specifically says after the plate drop that she needs to push herself to the limit in order not to become lost in grief. When Barret is in Cosmo Canyon he remembers how he'd promised to brings Biggs, Wedge and Jessie there to see the place where Avalanche began. Sector 7 is also instrumental in helping Barret to realise that he isn't the right person to be the leader.

They don't dwell on it, because the script is economical in the extreme and doesn't allow them to dwell on anything. After Aerith dies, for example, they launch straight back into the action, including a snow-boarding game, and don't mention her again for a long time, and yet her spirit is hovering over the whole of the rest of the game. Unspoken does not mean forgotten.The game assumes that both we and its characters will bear these key events and characters in mind.

 

[Odysseus]

Ody, I disagree that the dropping of the S7 plate had no emotional impact in the OG. It has a huge emotional impact on the player - at least, on this player, but I'm pretty sure I'm not alone. It has an impact because people we know, die. Yes, in the Remake people also die, but nobody we know. We have to think for a bit before we can name any of the NPCs who don't reappear after the plate drop. And so, while intellectually we understand that it was an atrocity, we don't feel it in our hearts. At least, I didn't. I really felt the teeth of that crucial event were drawn. (I'm not interested in arguing here about whether or not that's the case; I'm merely stating the fact of how I personally reacted to it).

The event also has a lingering emotional effect on Barret and Tifa. They are grief-stricken for the loss of their friends and bear the guilt of knowing that they set the chain of events in motion which ended in the annihilation of Sector 7. Tifa even specifically says after the plate drop that she needs to push herself to the limit in order not to become lost in grief. When Barret is in Cosmo Canyon he remembers how he'd promised to brings Biggs, Wedge and Jessie there to see the place where Avalanche began. Sector 7 is also instrumental in helping Barret to realise that he isn't the right person to be the leader.

They don't dwell on it, because the script is economical in the extreme and doesn't allow them to dwell on anything. After Aerith dies, for example, they launch straight back into the action, including a snow-boarding game, and don't mention her again for a long time, and yet her spirit is hovering over the whole of the rest of the game. Unspoken does not mean forgotten.The game assumes that both we and its characters will bear these key events and characters in mind.

Yeah I acknowledge that, I guess I've played the original so many times that the lingering emotion you're meant to feel just isn't there for me anymore. I prefer the Remake's approach of letting us in to really see how the characters are handling it now, it helps me get invested in them. Everywhere you go the NPCs are talking about it, the people in the Shinra building are desperately trying to manage the situation, staying long hours after their shifts. Say what you will about emotions the original imbues into the player, the plate-fall looms much larger in the world of the remake. I guess it just comes down to your preference in presentation, and as has been said, the remake's plate fall is hardly without issues.

 

[kathy202]

The problem with a spin-off is that by its nature, Cloud couldn't be part of it, and part of her newfound popularity lies in her interactions with him and how she poked a hole in his hard shell.

This is a personal preference, and maybe the less popular one, but I would prefer it if Jessie's character revolve less around Cloud if they do bring her back. This title has enough women crushing on Cloud and making Jessie another one of them discredits her character imo, unless they somehow make her have as much of a role as Aerith or Tifa.

 

[Jairus]

Have you considered that you're hoarding all the discurse about that particular character and people feel uncomfortable talking about her now?
It's like you had called dibs on her, like Jessie was yours and yours alone.

I want to talk about Jessie, and Wedge, and Biggs, and Marle and the Turks too! Not Chadley, I don't care about him.
Anyway: relax and let nature take its course.

I'll try, I wasn't meaning to be exclusive or anything. Never said no one else could talk about her. I'd love to see her brought up by someone other than me for once.

Because people are dumping twitter links to fanart every day. Like it or not, Cloti is popular these days.

There's fanart links of stuff for Jessie, too, but no one shares. Even though I had the thread specifically renamed so it was clear it wasn't just about the ship but about Jessie herself as well.

I'd argue she still plays this role in the Remake. It's just that every "5-minute bit character" from the OG got much more expanded roles this time. Jessie isn't anything special when it comes to that.

Actually, she got more than most. So that does make her different than the others.

Cloti is arguably the pairing that gets the most canon support from the entire FF7 franchise. Cloud and Tifa's relationship with each other is incredibly important to both of them and the narrative puts in a lot of work to make that very apparent to anyone who looks at the story. It is impossible to describe who Cloud is without bringing up Tifa and it's impossible to describe who Tifa is without bringing up Cloud. They are that important to each other and the plot. Of course people are going to make a lot of Cloud/Tifa content.

I just don't think it's the only content that should be promoted or brought attention to, is all. And I also don't think Cloti should be so forced in the game. It's like it's saying that one can't ever have a non-romantic outcome in a situation like that even though the OG itself provided one. The remake should do so as well.

Calling for the shutting down content someone personally don't like to promote content they do like is the definition of favoritism. It will also not cause people to not make more CloTi content; it will just cause them to call our forum out for playing favorites when we never have before and chase them off for other parts of the internet. It would make everyone on the forum look bad.

Then do more to better promote non-Cloti content just as much as Cloti content.

This is a personal preference, and maybe the less popular one, but I would prefer it if Jessie's character revolve less around Cloud if they do bring her back. This title has enough women crushing on Cloud and making Jessie another one of them discredits her character imo, unless they somehow make her have as much of a role as Aerith or Tifa.

Her interest in Cloud is part of her character ever since the OG. But she does have other parts of it which can be explored alongside that. She already is crushing on him, so it's too late to pull that back. There are only two others, so it's hardly the entire cast.

 

[Ite]

Fuck me I have no idea why I'm doing this, but, while we're here, if anyone's interested.
Jessie has 27 lines of dialogue in the OG, and one monologue (about the Midgar Trains). Of these 27 lines:

4 I would consider mildly to explicitly flirtatious*
2 are just the word "Cloud..."
2 are "Code Deciphered"s

If we follow anime conventions of name-use being a confession of love, that's 6/27 lines devoted to Jessie being a love interest, or, 22%. I wonder how that stacks up to the Remake...?

*It's only post-Remake that I can't unsee them as flirtatious, whereas before it was possible she was just oblivious.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Then do more to better promote non-Cloti content just as much as Cloti content.

People celebrate and promote the things they like without coercion. That's why it's called a fanclub rather than a job.

 

[Odysseus]

Fuck me I have no idea why I'm doing this, but, while we're here, if anyone's interested.
Jessie has 27 lines of dialogue in the OG, and one monologue (about the Midgar Trains). Of these 27 lines:

4 I would consider mildly to explicitly flirtatious*
2 are just the word "Cloud..."
2 are "Code Deciphered"s

If we follow anime conventions of name-use being a confession of love, that's 6/27 lines devoted to Jessie being a love interest, or, 22%. I wonder how that stacks up to the Remake...?

*It's only post-Remake that I can't unsee them as flirtatious, whereas before it was possible she was just oblivious.

I'm just gonna do a deep dive into my unnecessary ff7 knowledge now. The most explicitly "flirtatious" scene between them went unused:

Make of that what you will.

 

[Ite]

I'm just gonna do a deep dive into my unnecessary ff7 knowledge now. The most explicitly "flirtatious" scene between them went unused:

Make of that what you will.

You're a cult leader after my own potato, Ody.

 

[kathy202]

She already is crushing on him, so it's too late to pull that back. There are only two others, so it's hardly the entire cast.

Nope, not too late. If they can somehow write her a larger role in the next part, they can write about her getting over that crush too. And "only two others"?? How many women does Cloud need?!

 

[Cat on Mars]

How many women does Cloud need?!

Right now, just one and only if she's a licensed therapist.

I'll try, I wasn't meaning to be exclusive or anything. Never said no one else could talk about her. I'd love to see her brought up by someone other than me for once.

Okay, but it really looks like you have a very specific idea about the character and how you want the discussion to go, and you get annoyed when someone's ideas are different, as this thread proves. I shared my headcanon about Jessie's acting habilities and I got the impression it did upset you.

There's fanart links of stuff for Jessie, too, but no one shares. Even though I had the thread specifically renamed so it was clear it wasn't just about the ship but about Jessie herself as well.

I can't help you with this, pal. I don't look for fanart these days and I barely share any.