SPOILERS FFVII Remake Open Spoiler Discussion Thread

Jairus

Author of FFVII: Lifestream & FFVII: Reflections
Nope, not too late. If they can somehow write her a larger role in the next part, they can write about her getting over that crush too. And "only two others"?? How many women does Cloud need?! :no:
And why would they do that when her interest and interaction with him was part of what's made her popular? It's not that Cloud needs a lot of women going after him, it's just that Jessie's interest is part of her established character and her actions stemming from it part of the reason her popularity's grown so much - half her screen time in the remake was her flirting with him, after all. So it naturally follows that bringing her back should involve retaining the things that have made her popularity grow in the first place.

Okay, but it really looks like you have a very specific idea about the character and how you want the discussion to go, and you get annoyed when someone's ideas are different, as this thread proves. I shared my headcanon about Jessie's acting habilities and I got the impression it did upset you.
It's not so much that as it is frustration that my ideas about her are almost always rejected while those of others are accepted. I just want to be allowed to have my ideas and beliefs about it and not feel like they're being torn down or bad, because sometimes I do. In the discussion about her acting, you presented it as something you felt was fact rather than headcanon, so that set me off.
 

Cat on Mars

Actually not a cat
In the discussion about her acting, you presented it as something you felt was fact rather than headcanon, so that set me off.
Let me refresh your memory one moment:
Actually, I think her story is even better if you think she really worked a lot to improve her acting because she sucked at it, and all her hard work didn't matter at all because her dad was more important for her than her dream in the end.
How did you read this in the sine/cosine thread as any other thing than a headcanon? That place is where I put my Sephinova stuff, ffs.
Maybe you're a bit defensive because you feel frustrated... which in turn makes people not want to discuss this topic?
 

kathy202

Pro Adventurer
Jairus, given that we're talking about our preferences with how we'd like to see Jessie develop from this point (or how we might have preferred part 1 to have turned out), there's really no right or wrong here. I think it's valid that you prefer a Jessie-Cloud thing, and you're right that it contributed to her popularity.

But there are also others who see her as a character with potential outside of having a crush on the main character. I'll admit that this is probably the smaller group in her fanbase, and correct me if I've misread you above, but you sounded rather against this idea, though I can't think of any reason aside from personal preferences?

I guess we can agree that we have different preferences with respect to how we'd like to see this character develop, or even how she has been built up to this point.

For now, everything is pure speculation for fun anyway. Who knows what kind of new miseries (okay, or joys) Square Enix has in store for us?
 

Rydeen

In-KWEH-dible
@Jairus, sometimes I feel like it's hard to talk about Jessie in your presence because you seem to not want to let the discussion flow to discuss theories about her that differ from yours. People having differing opinions doesn't necessarily mean they don't like her. But I do think at this point that a lot of people have grown to dislike her now because of the drama.. You always say that people don't hear you out, and yes perhaps some folks may have been a bit narrow minded at times, but you don't seem to want to hear out others' ideas either, and just try to railroad the conversation. I like it when my favorite characters get attention, even if their interpretations differ. For example, I don't ship Rufus/Tseng, but I love to hear Lic share her thoughts of these characters and I like to entertain differing interpretations instead of obsessing over my own.
 

Jairus

Author of FFVII: Lifestream & FFVII: Reflections
Let me refresh your memory one moment:

How did you read this in the sine/cosine thread as any other thing than a headcanon? That place is where I put my Sephinova stuff, ffs.
Maybe you're a bit defensive because you feel frustrated... which in turn makes people not want to discuss this topic?
Well, because it wasn't specified as such. But I don't want to argue about it. We'll each think what we want to think.

Jairus, given that we're talking about our preferences with how we'd like to see Jessie develop from this point (or how we might have preferred part 1 to have turned out), there's really no right or wrong here. I think it's valid that you prefer a Jessie-Cloud thing, and you're right that it contributed to her popularity.

But there are also others who see her as a character with potential outside of having a crush on the main character. I'll admit that this is probably the smaller group in her fanbase, and correct me if I've misread you above, but you sounded rather against this idea, though I can't think of any reason aside from personal preferences?

I guess we can agree that we have different preferences with respect to how we'd like to see this character develop, or even how she has been built up to this point.

For now, everything is pure speculation for fun anyway. Who knows what kind of new miseries (okay, or joys) Square Enix has in store for us?
I wasn't saying that was the only thing about her that should be developed. Sorry if you misunderstood me. Of course I want the other parts of her story and character to be explored, too. I'd just like that part to not be left out at the same time, is all.

@Jairus, sometimes I feel like it's hard to talk about Jessie in your presence because you seem to not want to let the discussion flow to discuss theories about her that differ from yours. People having differing opinions doesn't necessarily mean they don't like her. But I do think at this point that a lot of people have grown to dislike her now because of the drama.. You always say that people don't hear you out, and yes perhaps some folks may have been a bit narrow minded at times, but you don't seem to want to hear out others' ideas either, and just try to railroad the conversation. I like it when my favorite characters get attention, even if their interpretations differ. For example, I don't ship Rufus/Tseng, but I love to hear Lic share her thoughts of these characters and I like to entertain differing interpretations instead of obsessing over my own.
It's just that I sometimes feel that my opinions and theories about her aren't often given credence here when virtually everyone else's is. So that very dismissal, when it happens, sometimes has a way of making me try harder to get them heard. If didn't feel like I was just about the only one in this place that liked certain ideas regarding her, maybe I wouldn't feel like pushing it like I do sometimes, I don't know. I've been trying to do better about it since I came back, and I'd just like to see people here like her again and actually get some activity back in the club thread. But that last is a separate topic that doesn't need to be gone into here.
 

Lestat

He/him
AKA
Ergo, V
Takes them to new places, meet new people. Save the world.
What's not to love.

Oh yeah besides the schizophrenia, being hunted by literally everyone and all your loved ones having the threat of death looming over them at every turn.


BESIDES that he's a top lad.
 

Stiggie

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Stiggie
I actually don't think Jessies interractions with Cloud are what made her popular. Or more specifically, although she became popular through her interractions with Cloud, Cloud himself had little to do with it, it's just that Jessie was fun to interact with, and since we are Cloud, those interactions HAPPENED to be with Cloud.
I think she, as an individual, is more interesting than her relationship with Cloud is.
I think the enjoyability of her character would be served better by seeing her interact with a host of different characters, and seeing how her personality handles that, than by watching her specifically with Cloud.

With Tifa for instance, I think that specifically her bond with Cloud makes both characters a joy to watch. I think Jessie was simply a joy to watch by herself, I think Cloud mainly held back that personality. In my mind, watching her, for instance, interact with Zack sounds way more interesting.

How is this for remake speculation? Jessie DOES survive, meets up with alternate universe Zack, and they travel after the party in the ultimate buddy cop movie!
 

kathy202

Pro Adventurer
Does Cloud not treat these women well? I don't see that. He doesn't talk to them well, he's often gruff and inarticulate, but he doesn't seem to treat them badly at all. Apart from anything else, he usually does what they tell him to do!

Nah, he doesn't really treat them badly, but yeah, he's awkward and has said/done dumb things that can be off-putting. Aside from running around doing random favors that people usually pay him for anyway, I'm not sure what he has done that would earn him the affection of multiple women?

Maybe the best thing he's done for any of them so far is insisting on saving Aerith. Or trying to listen to Tifa? As for Jessie, I just don't get it. He's outright rejected her multiple times. Probably why I would prefer it if she didn't have any further involvement in this mess.
 

Jairus

Author of FFVII: Lifestream & FFVII: Reflections
I actually don't think Jessies interractions with Cloud are what made her popular. Or more specifically, although she became popular through her interractions with Cloud, Cloud himself had little to do with it, it's just that Jessie was fun to interact with, and since we are Cloud, those interactions HAPPENED to be with Cloud.
I think she, as an individual, is more interesting than her relationship with Cloud is.
I think the enjoyability of her character would be served better by seeing her interact with a host of different characters, and seeing how her personality handles that, than by watching her specifically with Cloud.

With Tifa for instance, I think that specifically her bond with Cloud makes both characters a joy to watch. I think Jessie was simply a joy to watch by herself, I think Cloud mainly held back that personality. In my mind, watching her, for instance, interact with Zack sounds way more interesting.

How is this for remake speculation? Jessie DOES survive, meets up with alternate universe Zack, and they travel after the party in the ultimate buddy cop movie!
That's your opinion, but I think her dynamic with Cloud is part of her popularity. And there are things between them still unresolved - the possible pizza date, for one (which could be incorporated into a Gold Saucer date of her own with him - she was the Princess of the play, after all). Their growing friendship, for another - by the end of Chapter 4, he's warmed up to her and they've formed a connection. It would be nice to see more interactions between them with that in mind and see how different they'd be compared to what came before. Because I think his responses and reactions to her attention might be a bit different, maybe even a little warmer, with their friendship now established, especially since he'd be glad to see her again after thinking he'd lost her in the pillar.

Nah, he doesn't really treat them badly, but yeah, he's awkward and has said/done dumb things that can be off-putting. Aside from running around doing random favors that people usually pay him for anyway, I'm not sure what he has done that would earn him the affection of multiple women?

Maybe the best thing he's done for any of them so far is insisting on saving Aerith. Or trying to listen to Tifa? As for Jessie, I just don't get it. He's outright rejected her multiple times. Probably why I would prefer it if she didn't have any further involvement in this mess.
He didn't necessarily reject her - remember, Nojima said that his harshness is nothing more than a front. Which means that he doesn't mean any of the harsh things he says. He's just trying to get attention and look cool. But Jessie sees right past that, which is why she keeps ribbing him - because she knows she can. She's the one who begins to get him out of his shell a bit, and by the end of Chapter 4, they've begun to form a friendship. He shows genuine concern and warmth for her, asking if she's hurting, carrying her into the bar, encouraging her when she laments having to stay behind. Also, their dialogue during the bike chase was more playful banter, even on his end, than serious discussion - he actually laughs a little when she says "My hero!" about a minute into the chase.

And when she asks him if he's going to take her breath away with his skills, his response - "Don't blame me if ya get sick." - is not a denial. He was definitely trying to impress her. He didn't have to do the wheelie when they got topside, but he did it anyway, again likely to impress her since he surely knew she'd like it. And he never once told her to stop snuggling on him. Also, when she hugs him outside her door, his attempt to get her off him was half-hearted at best - he's strong enough that he could've easily gotten her off if he'd really wanted to. And when she first hugs him, he lifts his arms to start hugging her back before catching himself and just leaving them out there and slipping back into his shell.

The very fact that, if "no promises" was chosen, he was even willing to consider accepting her date invitation shows that he could've had at least a little interest in her. Also, if "no promises" was chosen and Cloud talks to her twice before leaving for Reactor 5, she reminds him about their dinner date, telling him to hurry back so her home-cooked pizza doesn't get cold. The fact that Cloud doesn't tell her he hasn't made up his mind yet or that he isn't going (which, as blunt as he can be, he'd have no problem doing) could mean that he decided to accept her invitation.

Also, in Japanese, Cloud is much more tender to her. "Are you seriously that desperate?" was, in the Japanese version, "Is this how it's gonna be?" and "My hero... so gentle." "Just try to hold on." was, in the Japanese version "You saved me again." "I'll save you as many times as you need." Which has a much more potentially romantic undertone to it. Jessie is also the first of the girls that Cloud gives full and complete eye contact to, even initiates it at times. His eyes follow her a lot.

So overall, he may not be quite as uninterested in her as some people think. It's just more subtle than it is with the other girls, so it can be easy to miss. And since he's inexperienced and trying to put up a harsh, cold front to look cool, it can seem like he doesn't care when really it's possible that he does. He just doesn't know how to react or respond to her attention.
 
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Stiggie

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Stiggie
I honestly hate the fact Zack is now alive in an alternative universe/maybe in their universe/maybe not/maybe he's a fucking tree.

Yeah me too, honestly, when I saw it happen during my first playthrough I was honestly crying about them destroying my childhood, and I still don't really feel any better, I honestly think the whole "remake is a PUN!" thing is just an utter disgrace, but people don't like it when I talk about that.

Nah, he doesn't really treat them badly, but yeah, he's awkward and has said/done dumb things that can be off-putting. Aside from running around doing random favors that people usually pay him for anyway, I'm not sure what he has done that would earn him the affection of multiple women?

Me neither, I get why Tifa likes him since she knew him from before and they have a shared history and trauma that makes them naturally see each other as special. But as for the other girls? I have no idea, I know Cloud is "not really like that", but honestly, I don't care, I don't like the "they see through him angle". I've heard to many people in dysfunctional relationships say "they're not really like that".
In Clouds case they happen to be right, but I don't like this "I can change them" mentality, I think it's a bad narrative to present.

Cloud is acting like a douche, and even when he's not, he's not exactly mister charisma. I can't help it but feel like the girls are into him only because of his looks and despite his behavior and it just rubs me the wrong way. Becoming friendly with Cloud? Sure, but developing feelings for this demi-puppet? No, until he gets his memories back, I'm against it.
 

Ite

Save your valediction (she/her)
AKA
Ite
I honestly think the whole "remake is a PUN!" thing is just an utter disgrace, but people don't like it when I talk about that.

Ooh! Ooh! I do! I feel validated XD

Me neither, I get why Tifa likes him since she knew him from before and they have a shared history and trauma that makes them naturally see each other as special. But as for the other girls? I have no idea, I know Cloud is "not really like that", but honestly, I don't care, I don't like the "they see through him angle". I've heard to many people in dysfunctional relationships say "they're not really like that".
In Clouds case they happen to be right, but I don't like this "I can change them" mentality, I think it's a bad narrative to present.

Cloud is acting like a douche, and even when he's not, he's not exactly mister charisma. I can't help it but feel like the girls are into him only because of his looks and despite his behavior and it just rubs me the wrong way. Becoming friendly with Cloud? Sure, but developing feelings for this demi-puppet? No, until he gets his memories back, I'm against it.

With Jessie, I saw her flirtations as a way of de stressing. Play is very obviously a defense mechanism for her in hopeless and uncertain times — as a fellow theatre performer, I relate hard. It also comes out with her laughing and joking during the bombing mission. I don’t think she’s actually interested in Cloud, but I’m absolutely petrified of saying anything about Jessie so I think I’ll leave it at that.

In Remake, I found Cloud was too dickish towards Aeris, but I also found Aeris too manic-pixie and their relationship was really forced and lacked natural chemistry most of the time. Remake really got rid of Cloud’s patriarchal protective streak from OG Midgar “It’s too dangerous” “I don’t know, getting help from a girl” etc. Obviously, I’m glad times have changed so much that this would read worse than outright dickery, but now the Cloud/Aeris dynamic borders on negging, which frankly squicks me out.
 

Odysseus

Ninja Potato
AKA
Ody
With Jessie, I saw her flirtations as a way of de stressing. Play is very obviously a defense mechanism for her in hopeless and uncertain times — as a fellow theatre performer, I relate hard. It also comes out with her laughing and joking during the bombing mission. I don’t think she’s actually interested in Cloud, but I’m absolutely petrified of saying anything about Jessie so I think I’ll leave it at that.
This is my take as well, though I wish we got a few moments where the facade dropped a bit. The closest we get is her death scene and even there she still playing.
 

Ite

Save your valediction (she/her)
AKA
Ite
This is my take as well, though I wish we got a few moments where the facade dropped a bit. The closest we get is her death scene and even there she still playing.

I think that’s part of what confused and irritated me about her death scene. Tonally it was played super sincere, not really meshing with my idea of her inner life. Because actually liking Cloud is upsetting lol, it gives me those “look at your life” vibes. I think they were trying to have her go out like Eponine, but I think that kind of sentiment would have worked better for Wedge’s farewell. I wanted Jessie to go out like Enjorlas!

tumblr_mhigzcOJy51qho2rco1_250.png

COME AND GET ME SHINRA SCUM!!

(edited for clarity)
 
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Jairus

Author of FFVII: Lifestream & FFVII: Reflections
With Jessie, I saw her flirtations as a way of de stressing. Play is very obviously a defense mechanism for her in hopeless and uncertain times — as a fellow theatre performer, I relate hard. It also comes out with her laughing and joking during the bombing mission. I don’t think she’s actually interested in Cloud, but I’m absolutely petrified of saying anything about Jessie so I think I’ll leave it at that.
Like I said above, if you talk to her twice before leaving for Reactor 5 after choosing "no promises", she reminds Cloud about their dinner date, urging him to hurry back so their pizza doesn't get cold. If she wasn't interested, she wouldn't have done that. And her reaction to "no promises" is too genuinely happy and excited to have been act - and remember, that wasn't even a complete yes he gave her, and she was practically overjoyed that he'd even think about it. She'd have had no way to know how he'd respond to her invitation and may have been expecting him to turn her down. So she wouldn't have had a chance to come up with an acted response in the instant before he replied.

And also, actors and actresses are known to become affected by the roles they play. So even if it was a game to start out with, it could still have become something more genuine by the time she made her invitation. I do understand your point about her destressing, though. I just think that her flirtations could've been both that and a genuine interest at the same time. They don't have to be mutually exclusive.
 
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