SPOILERS FFVII Remake Open Spoiler Discussion Thread

No, it didn't work. I'm looking forward to Part 2 despite the nonsensical Whispers and the bewildering ending, not because of it.

I guess I kind of appreciate the creators giving me a heads-up not to expect a faithful remake of the OG, but tbh I wasn't expecting that anyway. I have no objections to a recreation of this story, or to taking it off in new directions. I just think the Whispers were badly conceived and poorly thought-through.
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
I’m definitely more in favor of this kind of analysis because it speaks a lot more to the execution of these ideas. As frustrating as it is though, we won’t know for sure until it’s all said and done.

Then the only thing you're in favor of is no discussion at all, because obviously none of us know how it will turn out after part 7 in 2040.

No, but it worked didn’t it? Ending was sloppy, sure, but it did what is was supposed to.

That it "worked" is no defense of it, come on. You grant that it's sloppy and yet continue to insist our reason for disliking it is that we don't want anything to change.

I dunno, I think I’m more interested in analyzing the execution of ideas, even “bad” ones, rather than outright dismissing them.

We have threads to that effect about Advent Children, Dirge of Cerberus, and Crisis Core. How we might improve them within the constraints of the elements used in their creation. That's a fun exercise for us, as our own sort of creators. But none of that gets around the basic fact that the size of Deepground or the Genesis Army is stupid and the story would be easier and better if it did not exist. :monster:

No, it didn't work. I'm looking forward to Part 2 despite the nonsensical Whispers and the bewildering ending, not because of it.

I guess I kind of appreciate the creators giving me a heads-up not to expect a faithful remake of the OG, but tbh I wasn't expecting that anyway. I have no objections to a recreation of this story, or to taking it off in new directions. I just think the Whispers were badly conceived and poorly thought-through.

Yes. My thoughts exactly. My anticipation for part 2, such as it is, is because of how good the rest of part 1 was. All the ending did was dramatically reduce my excitement.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
It's fundamentally a difference of vision. It's the literal definition of a "remake" versus the implied and colloquial understanding of what a "remake" in the video game industry is.

The creators have their vision of what it means to perform a Remake of FFVII versus the expectations people had of what the Remake would be. They're not going to in essence, raise the same child twice. This new story they're writing won't be the exact original, it'll show us the same moments and plot of the original but within the context of being what it is. It's not a straight retelling.
 

Obsidian Fire

Ahk Morn!
AKA
The Engineer
If the point was to get people hype for FF7: Remake Part 2, then I think the ending failed. Not for everyone, but for a core group of people who were the intended target of the Remake.

I am not hyped for FF7: Remake Part 2. Heck, I'm not even hyped for FF7: Remake Part 1 and I've yet to even play the thing. It feels more like watching "let's see how the Nomura, Kitase, and Nojima decide to bring the tone of KH into their old work" than anything else at this point. I'm not... excited... to see it. I'm resigned.
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
That is true, Mako.

And if 90% of the first game wasn't exactly what I wanted and far better than anything I could have expected, I probably wouldn't feel so shortchanged

If the point was to get people hype for FF7: Remake Part 2, then I think the ending failed. Not for everyone, but for a core group of people who were the intended target of the Remake.

Right, which is why the point of ending seemed more geared to getting people to argue on twitter than to actually be hyped for the next part.
 

Claymore

3x3 Eyes
I'm sorry, no. You guys don't get to jump on the Barret moment as 'stupid' when it was literally set up to show you the power and purpose of the Whispers - a death which they immediately corrected like 2 seconds after he hit the ground. 2 seconds! You may not have liked it, but it was not stupid and it was completely different to the major fake-out deaths of Biggs and Wedge. Long pre-death speeches. Major mourning sequences. And then, oops, we're here! Oops gone. Wait, he's alive!

Completely different.
 

KindOfBlue

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Blue
No, it didn't work.
Didn’t work for you and some others, but definitely did for me and some others. That’s what I’m saying, it’s all about perspective.
Then the only thing you're in favor of is no discussion at all, because obviously none of us know how it will turn out after part 7 in 2040.
Quite the opposite, there’d be a lot less to talk about if we already knew what to expect
That it "worked" is no defense of it, come on. You grant that it's sloppy and yet continue to insist our reason for disliking it is that we don't want anything to change.
Because me calling it sloppy refers to its execution, not the very idea itself. I never said you only dislike it because you don’t want change, but a lot of the problems people have with the ending wind up going back to the idea at its core. I just think it’s more productive to discuss how to make the whispers better rather than dismissing them altogether.
I'm looking forward to Part 2 despite the nonsensical Whispers and the bewildering ending, not because of it.
My thoughts exactly. My anticipation for part 2, such as it is, is because of how good the rest of part 1 was.
Then they already have your attention, don’t they? I think that’s the point
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
Ite hangs on the Barret thing more than I do. I got pretty quickly that it was there purely to definitively show what the Whispers motivation was and moved on. But it is an easy way to demonstrate the slapdash way they'll throw "surprises" in just for their own sake.

Then they already have your attention, don’t they? I think that’s the point

They would have had my attention anyway. And it was almost rapt, slavish attention rather than bracing, apprehensive attention.
 

KindOfBlue

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Blue
the major fake-out deaths of Biggs and Wedge.
The Biggs fakeout was the only one that bothered me, and even that I can get over depending on where they go with it
And it was almost rapt, slavish attention rather than bracing, apprehensive attention.
That’s why I think I’m so sympathetic to the creator’s perspective. Sometimes keeping the audience in uncertainty before resolving it is more satisfying than knowingly giving them what they expect. I really don’t blame people for being apprehensive at all. It’s just for me, it all boils down to how they follow up this game. It could very well be the most horrible story in the world, but I don’t know yet.
 

looneymoon

they/them
AKA
Rishi
While I go on about how I want the classic story to endure, I'm aware that nothing exists in a vacuum. I think that's why a 21st Century retelling of Final Fantasy VII presented a great opportunity in my point of view. We now live in a world in which "the 1%" is a common household term, a world in which anthropogenic climate change actively devastates the world instead of just being a dire warning, a world that creeps ever closer to transhumanism, late-stage capitalism, and a real reckoning with our own complacency in systemic oppression. I was really excited to see how these things would land anew in a story that has moustache-twirling villains making monsters for fun. I got time travelling ghosts instead.

Edit: If the whispers/timeline stuff represents a new thread of plot to keep interest in the game going between parts, to spark theories and to have old and new fans share in the unknown, and to have content creators on YouTube give Remake lots of free advertising, I'll concede that, from a marketing standpoint, there's something to it. This is one of the ways in which my thinking is definitely archaic, because I can't think of a way to do that that doesn't seem like an unnatural, shoehorned, very bad idea in the context of the story itself, which is where my interest lies. If that was the motivation behind the whispers and timeline stuff, I'm even less impressed than I was before. Allowing capitalist concerns to drive the writing isn't very in-the-spirit of FF7. I suppose something similar could be done with the larger Avalanche stuff (another great addition imo... so far <.<) but that's kind of abstract and wouldn't drum up the kind of "Comm-yoo-nee-tee engage-ment" they're going for. In short, I don't think I can answer your question.

This entire post is so good. I want to bring up some things.

Particularly this part:

I think that's why a 21st Century retelling of Final Fantasy VII presented a great opportunity in my point of view. We now live in a world in which "the 1%" is a common household term, a world in which anthropogenic climate change actively devastates the world instead of just being a dire warning, a world that creeps ever closer to transhumanism, late-stage capitalism, and a real reckoning with our own complacency in systemic oppression. I was really excited to see how these things would land anew in a story that has moustache-twirling villains making monsters for fun. I got time travelling ghosts instead.

Let's be real, FF7 stopped being about any of this as soon as it started having celebrities, pop songs playing over character deaths, and prioritizing rule of cool over all else.

I felt less betrayed by the "what does a remake really mean!?" discussion because... frankly, I don't think what FF7R has to say about it is all that profound. Force put it nicely when he said:

Force said:
Are you making a change because it serves the world and plot, or because it satisfies your *dons beret* needs as an artiste? Or, even more cynically, because you want people to argue about shit on twitter?

Call me cynical, but I don't know how you can see this kind of thing isn't motivated by wanting to create buzz on social media. Without even touching how stupid the execution was, that type of authorial intent is so... corporate. Which is fundamentally at odds with what makes the FF7 the story one worth retelling :/ Obviously, the elements of the story (as Ite laid out so eloquently) are ones that the creators deem as either less important, or not interesting enough of a topic to re-explore as the focus. That is absolutely wild to me.

It's why I am completely opposed to playing into theory-crafting around this title. I feel that by doing so, I am bending into the corporate side of this game - the side where the whole purpose is to generate perpetual buzz for the next title. With a story like FF7, I am sure all of you can understand why I find it all incredibly gross?

There is an entire conversation that this boils down to expectations set by a "remake," what a "remake" means, is "remake" a pun etc. That is a fine angle to approach a remake, but personally I never understood why this was a controversy with regards to this game. My disappointment never stemmed from a philosophical discussion about what a "Remake" is. The definition of "remake" has very little to do with what I take issue with. Call me naive, but my disappointment actually came more from this:

Tetsuya Nomura said:
Concerning Final Fantasy VII Remake, which is a title loaded with a lot of mystery for now, it will be different from the original Final Fantasy VII. If we make a compilation, these games will hardly have an overall coherence. It will be difficult because there is no more continuity between the Compilation and the Remake for the moment

Hindsight is 20/20, and I was definitely reading way too much into this quote. The fact is, this gave me hope that this Remake would go back to my assessment of what important elements of the story are, without as much focus on previous gimmicks. This wasn't actually a lie, but the new gimmick for this game isn't all that different from the shit I hated from those other games. Gimmicks that have, historically for this franchise, obfuscated everything @Mr. Ite outlined at the top of this post. All that stuff? Well, now everything else now takes a backseat to "surprise! there's time travel!! what does it mean!?"

I wasn't super in tune with the pre-release hype for the game, but this was the main thing I saw in regards to "The Compilation of FF7." Maybe it wasn't intentionally misleading, but I was misled by this. Had the game been more upfront with the fact that it was a Compilation entry, I probably would have had more of an expectation. I would have a better understanding that this game was committing to entries in the series that have historically deemed what I consider important as less so. My significant other, who is not a big FF7 fan like I am (but has played all the games), says that if he knew the Compilation was relevant he probably would not even bothered wasting his time. I am sure this is true for many others who went into this without knowing any better.

All of this.... just comes back to cynical corporate franchising of something. Obviously FF7 was never as punk rock as it seemed to me when I was 9, but if the creators were going to do this, I really wish they didn't use this story as their vehicle to do so.
 
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KindOfBlue

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Blue
It's possible that everything turns out amazing, but the sloppiness of part 1 does not fill me with confidence. So why would we not be able to say so simply because "it's not done yet."
Because a lot of what will make or break this ending is dependent on what happens in the future. Even if it’s a standalone game, it’s still an episodic story. Personally, considering how solid most of the game was, not even the ending was enough to ruin that for me mostly because I don’t have any problems with the idea of the ending, just the execution.
 

Odysseus

Ninja Potato
AKA
Ody
Fuck that, this is an FF7 website. You think we wouldn't be discussing this all along anyway?

Actually, I seem to remember you actually thinking that before you played it. So maybe you just forget what this place is, lol.
I dunno, if the ending wasn't so out there I don't think there'd be nearly as much to talk about. It's an obvious ploy by square to keep discussion going until the next part, so we'll see later if hubris comes to collect, but you can't say it wasn't effective.
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
Have you seen the many-page, months-long discussions had here over the depiction of Shinra and it's employees? And the accomplishments or lack thereof of the heroes? To say nothing of the LTD. Come on, man.

It's an obvious ploy by square to keep discussion going until the next part

Yeah, that's why it feels like lousy storytelling and why it makes me nervous for future parts.
 

KindOfBlue

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Blue
Maybe I'm just an anarchist but the fact this debate can still rage four months later tells me that square made the right choice lol.
Part of me wants Cloud to kill Aerith himself just for the reactions (but also because I think it could genuinely be an interesting narrative choice) so I guess I’m right there with you, wanting to watch the world burn
that type of authorial intent is so... corporate. Which is fundamentally at odds with what makes the FF7 the story one worth retelling
I completely understand what you’re saying, but it seems the actual creators of the game just don’t see it that way
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
I completely understand what you’re saying, but it seems the actual creators of the game just don’t see it that way

No shit. But how does this equate to dissatisfied people's complaints all boil down to not wanting change?
How is it more "productive" to discuss how to make the Whispers better when the game is already out and the 'actual creators of the game' obviously feel the only way they're going to feel? I just don't understand your angle on this particular discussion.

Can’t speak much on the history of this site since I’m so new here, but it’s seems SE managed to create a topic of discussion that rivals the passion of even the LTD...hell, maybe that’s an accomplishment in itself! ?‍♂️

Yeah I'll fuckin believe that when I see it. The LTD has been going on for 23 years. And is also probably the worst part of the entire FF7 fandom, so frankly I wouldn't welcome an equivalent topic of discussion.
 

Odysseus

Ninja Potato
AKA
Ody
Have you seen the many-page, months-long discussions had here over the depiction of Shinra and it's employees? And the accomplishments or lack thereof of the heroes? To say nothing of the LTD. Come on, man.



Yeah, that's why it feels like lousy storytelling and why it makes me nervous for future parts.
I'm speaking solely about discussion around the ending and the implications for part 2, not ff7 discussions in general.

As long as the weird stuff is reserved for the endings, I'm content with having 90% of a great game each time.
 

Odysseus

Ninja Potato
AKA
Ody
I get a sick amusement out of square's weird stuff. I played all the damn KH games. I just laugh at it, it's not the experience destroying nightmare for me that it is for some of you (I could still do without it, mind you.)
 

KindOfBlue

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Blue
But how does this equate to dissatisfied people's complaints all boil down to not wanting change?
I didn’t say “all”, I’m saying “some”. And it’s because of observations like this:
Yeah, that's why it feels like lousy storytelling and why it makes me nervous for future parts.
See, that’s what I’m interested in. The “why”. I just think if it was executed better, it wouldn’t feel so lousy. For some others, scrapping the idea altogether would be better because the very idea of this much change is bad. Not pointing any fingers and I’m not even saying this is a bad take either but that is what some people feel, no?
But why not have 100% of a great game
Honestly, does this even exist :/
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
I mean we could go the Xenogears route of greatness and have it be so great that the final chapter is literally a textual recap of what came afterwards and merely sets up the final confrontation. :monster:

That would be the cost of having it all be upfront, since there's no way it would wrap up itself within a single game to make sense right now.

At the end of the day, a lot of this Remake's understanding is going to be retrospective due to the nature of the medium. This Remake series is split, meaning there will be conclusions that aren't true conclusions. Merely temporary cliffhangers that are confusing in the moment due to the lack of context that won't come until much later in release.

We will be back here 3 or 4 years from now fully understanding what has happened in Part 1. And then we'll be confused about what's happened with Part 2. :monster:
 
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