SPOILERS FFVII Remake Open Spoiler Discussion Thread

[Odysseus]

I don't understand your rigid adherence to this idea that the only reason a remake could exist is because there's something wrong with the original. Stuff is remade all the time without a statement on the original. This is a weird position to insist on.

It's not that that's the only reason a remake could exist (let's be real, the main reason things get remade is strict profitability,) but that's why I kept seeing so many people want one to begin with even before it was confirmed. The original is old, dated, the graphics are bad, game play is unapproachable for modern audiences... etc. Those are all the justifications I would see for why a remake was necessary, so I figured there must be some consensus among fans that the original was a flawed game now. As someone who only got into it long after it's prime, I don't see that as the case at all, it's still a very approachable game. I'm sure the switch port sold a ton just based on people who wanted to know me about Cloud because of smash bros. People still get in to this game like they always have so those arguments I have seen seem to fall flat under such circumstances, FF7 holds up to this day.

looney and Ite have covered the strawman that says people that didn't like it were just afraid of change, or I guess this permutation: that we fundamentally don't understand what a remake is. Like, how could you not see the difference between the first 90% of the game and the ending? Are you seriously suggesting that the additions made to that point - the Jessie chapter, the alterations to the Wall Market sequence, the world-building in the sidequests and the expanded Sectors 5 and 7 - WOULDN'T have constituted a remake, and would have just been them going through the motions to do something they've already done?

I never meant to imply that the only reason people would be upset is because of change, but that seemed to be a driving factor here. You guys wanted a faithful remake that was exactly the same (plus a few welcome additions like chapter 4) without anything else weird about it, but that's not what you got. You got Square going full ham into some out there plot ideas and bizarre new concepts like the whispers. From my perspective, you never should have expected it any other way, because Square isn't going to spend millions of dollars to make the same story again with a few new additions. I'm saying you never would have gotten it with the high production values we got if it were like that. It would have been

on par with Ocarina of Time 3D on 3DS

because that's all a faithful remake would warrant from square. Maybe a better example would have been Trials of Mana since that's actually them, or those crash remasters. It would have been fundamentally the same but with a few tweaks because that's all they'd want to budget for. If they don't have something radically new to show for their effort, they're just not going to do it. they'll make a new game instead (which is what I would have preferred.)

But again, the time ghost metanarrative is different. It works to actively push you out of the story, out of the world. "REMEMBER HOW THIS WENT BEFORE?!" they scream.

I'm not the biggest fan of it either really, I probably would have preferred the remake you and Ite want too, but that's never what Square would have made, because

I think from a creator’s perspective, it can be pretty unsatisfying when your audience already knows exactly what’s going to happen in the story so doing this forces us back into a place where we don’t know what to expect

and

the creators are actively against the idea of Remake being some kind of definitive replacement to the original, hence why the Remake even exists in the first place.

(@KindOfBlue sorry for stealing your words but they're so on-point lol.)
My viewpoint is that if we wanted FFVII with these levels of production values, it had to be like this. The creative staff would never do it otherwise.

 

[ForceStealer]

It's not that that's the only reason a remake could exist (let's be real, the main reason things get remade is strict profitability,) but that's why I kept seeing so many people want one to begin with even before it was confirmed. The original is old, dated, the graphics are bad, game play is unapproachable for modern audiences... etc. Those are all the justifications I would see for why a remake was necessary, so I figured there must be some consensus among fans that the original was a flawed game now.

Not a single one of those reflects in any way my desires for a remake.

You guys wanted a faithful remake that was exactly the same (plus a few welcome additions like chapter 4)

Plus a few welcome additions? This is what gets at me. How the hell is everything in the Remake that isn't time ghosts "exactly" the same?! Did we play the same game? Almost nothing about the experience was even close to an exact match to the original from even the most basic level due to the changes to perspective and gameplay. To say nothing of voice acting, character animation, a new script, new areas, new characters, new questlines, new materia, new limit breaks, etc, etc, etc

Even the freakin interviewer does it:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1285956785296207872

"there's a surprising development at the end of the game. With remakes, there's always a faction of people who don't want anything changed"

How the shit are these the only two options presented? Everything is EXACTLY the same, OR we fight the personification of fate at the end of a highway and Zack is alive now.

 

[Odysseus]

Maybe it'd be better to say "no radical departures" rather than "no changes."

 

[ForceStealer]

But is it stupid because of how it’s executed, or is there no redeemable way that this idea can even exist and be done well?

Are you making a change because it serves the world and plot, or because it satisfies your *dons beret* needs as an artiste? Or, even more cynically, because you want people to argue about shit on twitter?

I've already said I didn't mind the Whispers for most of the game based on my original interpretation of them. Around the point of the pillar collapse they were starting to try my patience.
You can say I only want the "familiar," but that's only because the unfamiliarity at the end was objectionable enough that I don't trust future instances of it. I can't be in the moment when Sephiroth is descending on Aerith not because I can't deal with the unfamiliar, but because I'll be bracing for Zack to jump out of the water like a frickin Ninja Turtle and tackle Aerith out of the way. Because that's about how much grace with which I can expect future changes to be applied.

Maybe it'd be better to say "no radical departures" rather than "no changes."

Yes, it would. No one does though.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

I think the reason the ending of the Remake feels so weird is because there are different kinds of ways a creator can surprise their audience and the kind of surprise the ending of Remake uses is the "i bet you didn't expect this happen!" kind of surprise. Which... is surprise, but it's a very shallow kind of surprise and one that doesn't age all that well. It also can cause a problem where the story doesn't feel like it interconnects to itself all that well. It can feel like the creators are making it up as they go without backtracking through their story to make the new stuff work.

I'd say there's a similar... ending sequence in FFXIV 2.0, in that it really dumped a bunch of new lore into the story (the Ascians think Hydaelyn (more or less the Planet's sentience) is a parasite?) and changed the player's perception of FFXIV metaphysics (Hydaelyn can injured? while taking a massive spell that was meant to kill us?). However, the story had already shown that (a) the Asicans hate Hydaelyn (and us for working with her) and (b) Hydaelyn thinks of us as her kid (or at least said she did). The new information about the Ascians and Hydaelyn we got at the end of 2.0 fit into the other information we already had about them even if we (and as we later found out, the story devs!) didn't understand why it was happening. We wouldn't find out the answers to some of those mysteries until literal years later. But since the information fit into the story as we knew it at the time, so no one really wondered if/how the devs were going to solve it at the time.

Surprises are kind of like mysteries in that they want to be "resolved". And some surprises are easier to resolve than others. In fact, some surprises resolve themselves at the same time as they "go off". FFXIV's surprises are more of the "oooh! I get it!!! that's how all these plot points come together!!" variety than the "i bet you didn't expect this to happen!" type. But that's because the FFXIV dev team loves it when people guess what is going to happen before it happens and make sure they include foreshadowing so people can make good guesses about what will happen next. The "surprise" is "how" a sequence of events the reader already anticipated happening will actually play out. Not "what" events were going to play out in the first place.

The "surprise" of the Remake is "what" happened in it at the end. But the devs don't ever answer the "why" of it. In fact, they purposely dangle the "why" in front of the player in other interviews and the Ultimania and hint that "it's super important! we promise!" all while saying nothing. It really begs the question of if the "why" is good or not, or if the devs are as clever as they think they are. That the devs think the "surprise" won't work if they give us the "why" of it that could easily solve the "does this new addition work or not" can easily be taken as evidence that the "surprise" wouldn't work with the "why" included.

 

[KindOfBlue]

Are you making a change because it serves the world and plot, or because it satisfies your *dons beret* needs as an artiste? Or, even more cynically, because you want people to argue about shit on twitter?

Is there an objective way to determine this though? Especially when you factor in bias and the fact that this is only part 1? And if so, who would be more equipped to determine what “serves the plot”? The multitude of fans each with their own vision of what this story could be, or the people actually creating this story? I think striking a balance of the two is favorable, but it’s inevitable that this balance leans one way or another sometimes. Sometimes you get exactly what you want, sometimes you don’t. I dunno, I think I’m more interested in analyzing the execution of ideas, even “bad” ones, rather than outright dismissing them.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I don't like the Whispers because I can't make any sense out of them. Who can see them? Who can't? Why? What are the principles on which they interfere/don't interfere? (Why catch Aerith the first time she nearly fell in the back of the church, but not the second time? why was she in danger the first time but not the second, when she'd have fallen just as far?). What is the mechanism by which they function?

I liked Ite's version because it made sense, was in keeping with the original, and was easy to understand.

FFVIIR was full of wonderful surprises, e.g. the updated, upgraded Wall Market, the Museum of Shinra, Mayor Domino's new role, etc... But the fact is, there is no need to keep "surprising" your audience in order to keep them interested. I regularly read the plot summary of new shows on wikipedia before I watch them on Netflix. I don't need surprises. I need good acting, good characters I care about, a good script, good pacing, humour and drama. Do you know how many times I've watched the Princess Bride? Even though it's exactly the same from one viewing to the next!

Surprises that are put in to confuddle and mislead the audience are a mistake, IMHO.

 

[ForceStealer]

Is there an objective way to determine this though? Especially when you factor in bias and the fact that this is only part 1? And if so, who would be more equipped to determine what “serves the plot”?

Who said anything about being "objective?" I'm specifically talking about what I liked and didn't, which is exclusively subjective. The fact that this is only part 1 is a big part of why it's a problem for me. Because when taken as the whole, I LIKE the game! But it has completely changed my expectations for the latter parts, and largely for the worse. And I don't like when that is presented as I DON'T WANT ANY CHANGES AT ALL, when the remake was FULL OF CHANGES and I loved a lot of them.

That said:

there are different kinds of ways a creator can surprise their audience and the kind of surprise the ending of Remake uses is the "i bet you didn't expect this happen!" kind of surprise. Which... is surprise, but it's a very shallow kind of surprise and one that doesn't age all that well. It also can cause a problem where the story doesn't feel like it interconnects to itself all that well. It can feel like the creators are making it up as they go without backtracking through their story to make the new stuff work.

This is pretty objectively true.

 

[Makoeyes987]

There's having an FFVII Remake that runs the same course of the original plot, plays it straight, and merely expands on the narrative while passing the known and expected highlights/moments of the story.

And then there's an FFVII Remake that passes the known and expected highlights/moments of the original story, but re-contextualizes them by placing said moments in front of a wider narrative that in-universe acknowledges that somehow this whole affair might have happened before, and/or the characters are somehow savvy of what they're experiencing.

We're getting the latter. That's the change people are excited or apprehensive over. The change is a difference in how the plot of FFVII plays out for the audience. This isn't just the plot of FFVII anymore. It's the plot of FFVII-Remake, a story about the original FFVII story playing out seemingly again within the world of FFVII.

How close the Remake's telling of the original game's events stays in line with the original before expanding on its own new narrative is going to be what makes or breaks it for some people. The difference is that. There's two stories at work here. The original story and the new story. The fact there's two completely different narratives at play here doesn't make me believe it's a gotcha surprise, it's going somewhere. Where, is the question. However I feel it's going to be something that's essentially a story within a story.

FFVII is the stage for the Remake's own story.

 

[Ite]

SEQUEL

 

[Makoeyes987]

I suppose it depends how one defines the term "sequel"

It could be! I dunno if it is, but I could see how it simultaneously occupies the space of a Remake and Sequel simultaneously. But if it simultaneously takes you through a retread of FFVII but simultaneously acknowledges the state of its own existence and even includes its own unique plot, there's certainly space for it to be a sequel.

 

[KindOfBlue]

Which... is surprise, but it's a very shallow kind of surprise and one that doesn't age all that well. It also can cause a problem where the story doesn't feel like it interconnects to itself all that well. It can feel like the creators are making it up as they go without backtracking through their story to make the new stuff work.

I’m definitely more in favor of this kind of analysis because it speaks a lot more to the execution of these ideas. As frustrating as it is though, we won’t know for sure until it’s all said and done.

The "surprise" of the Remake is "what" happened in it at the end. But the devs don't ever answer the "why" of it. In fact, they purposely dangle the "why" in front of the player in other interviews and the Ultimania and hint that "it's super important! we promise!" all while saying nothing.

Sadly, that’s the nature of the episodic approach they’re taking

But the fact is, there is no need to keep "surprising" your audience in order to keep them interested.

No, but it worked didn’t it? Ending was sloppy, sure, but it did what is was supposed to. We have no idea what to expect, and that’s what the creators wanted. They’d probably have no interest in remaking FF7 otherwise, no matter how heavy the demand. If the whispers aren’t properly explained by the end of this saga, I’ll definitely be unsatisfied but until then, I’m stuck in limbo.

This is pretty objectively true.

Is it though? I mean, with the staff being largely comprised of both OG staff and OG fans, I think at some point the conversation shifts from being less about quality of writing and more about differences in vision. Though I really won’t know how I feel until I see the rest of the story. And trust me, I hate waiting but it is what it is.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

No, it didn't work. I'm looking forward to Part 2 despite the nonsensical Whispers and the bewildering ending, not because of it.

I guess I kind of appreciate the creators giving me a heads-up not to expect a faithful remake of the OG, but tbh I wasn't expecting that anyway. I have no objections to a recreation of this story, or to taking it off in new directions. I just think the Whispers were badly conceived and poorly thought-through.

 

[ForceStealer]

I’m definitely more in favor of this kind of analysis because it speaks a lot more to the execution of these ideas. As frustrating as it is though, we won’t know for sure until it’s all said and done.

Then the only thing you're in favor of is no discussion at all, because obviously none of us know how it will turn out after part 7 in 2040.

No, but it worked didn’t it? Ending was sloppy, sure, but it did what is was supposed to.

That it "worked" is no defense of it, come on. You grant that it's sloppy and yet continue to insist our reason for disliking it is that we don't want anything to change.

I dunno, I think I’m more interested in analyzing the execution of ideas, even “bad” ones, rather than outright dismissing them.

We have threads to that effect about Advent Children, Dirge of Cerberus, and Crisis Core. How we might improve them within the constraints of the elements used in their creation. That's a fun exercise for us, as our own sort of creators. But none of that gets around the basic fact that the size of Deepground or the Genesis Army is stupid and the story would be easier and better if it did not exist.

No, it didn't work. I'm looking forward to Part 2 despite the nonsensical Whispers and the bewildering ending, not because of it.

I guess I kind of appreciate the creators giving me a heads-up not to expect a faithful remake of the OG, but tbh I wasn't expecting that anyway. I have no objections to a recreation of this story, or to taking it off in new directions. I just think the Whispers were badly conceived and poorly thought-through.

Yes. My thoughts exactly. My anticipation for part 2, such as it is, is because of how good the rest of part 1 was. All the ending did was dramatically reduce my excitement.

 

[Makoeyes987]

It's fundamentally a difference of vision. It's the literal definition of a "remake" versus the implied and colloquial understanding of what a "remake" in the video game industry is.

The creators have their vision of what it means to perform a Remake of FFVII versus the expectations people had of what the Remake would be. They're not going to in essence, raise the same child twice. This new story they're writing won't be the exact original, it'll show us the same moments and plot of the original but within the context of being what it is. It's not a straight retelling.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

If the point was to get people hype for FF7: Remake Part 2, then I think the ending failed. Not for everyone, but for a core group of people who were the intended target of the Remake.

I am not hyped for FF7: Remake Part 2. Heck, I'm not even hyped for FF7: Remake Part 1 and I've yet to even play the thing. It feels more like watching "let's see how the Nomura, Kitase, and Nojima decide to bring the tone of KH into their old work" than anything else at this point. I'm not... excited... to see it. I'm resigned.

 

[ForceStealer]

That is true, Mako.

And if 90% of the first game wasn't exactly what I wanted and far better than anything I could have expected, I probably wouldn't feel so shortchanged

If the point was to get people hype for FF7: Remake Part 2, then I think the ending failed. Not for everyone, but for a core group of people who were the intended target of the Remake.

Right, which is why the point of ending seemed more geared to getting people to argue on twitter than to actually be hyped for the next part.

 

[Claymore]

I'm sorry, no. You guys don't get to jump on the Barret moment as 'stupid' when it was literally set up to show you the power and purpose of the Whispers - a death which they immediately corrected like 2 seconds after he hit the ground. 2 seconds! You may not have liked it, but it was not stupid and it was completely different to the major fake-out deaths of Biggs and Wedge. Long pre-death speeches. Major mourning sequences. And then, oops, we're here! Oops gone. Wait, he's alive!

Completely different.

 

[KindOfBlue]

No, it didn't work.

Didn’t work for you and some others, but definitely did for me and some others. That’s what I’m saying, it’s all about perspective.

Then the only thing you're in favor of is no discussion at all, because obviously none of us know how it will turn out after part 7 in 2040.

Quite the opposite, there’d be a lot less to talk about if we already knew what to expect

That it "worked" is no defense of it, come on. You grant that it's sloppy and yet continue to insist our reason for disliking it is that we don't want anything to change.

Because me calling it sloppy refers to its execution, not the very idea itself. I never said you only dislike it because you don’t want change, but a lot of the problems people have with the ending wind up going back to the idea at its core. I just think it’s more productive to discuss how to make the whispers better rather than dismissing them altogether.

I'm looking forward to Part 2 despite the nonsensical Whispers and the bewildering ending, not because of it.

My thoughts exactly. My anticipation for part 2, such as it is, is because of how good the rest of part 1 was.

Then they already have your attention, don’t they? I think that’s the point

 

[ForceStealer]

Ite hangs on the Barret thing more than I do. I got pretty quickly that it was there purely to definitively show what the Whispers motivation was and moved on. But it is an easy way to demonstrate the slapdash way they'll throw "surprises" in just for their own sake.

Then they already have your attention, don’t they? I think that’s the point

They would have had my attention anyway. And it was almost rapt, slavish attention rather than bracing, apprehensive attention.

 

[KindOfBlue]

the major fake-out deaths of Biggs and Wedge.

The Biggs fakeout was the only one that bothered me, and even that I can get over depending on where they go with it

And it was almost rapt, slavish attention rather than bracing, apprehensive attention.

That’s why I think I’m so sympathetic to the creator’s perspective. Sometimes keeping the audience in uncertainty before resolving it is more satisfying than knowingly giving them what they expect. I really don’t blame people for being apprehensive at all. It’s just for me, it all boils down to how they follow up this game. It could very well be the most horrible story in the world, but I don’t know yet.

 

[ForceStealer]

It's possible that everything turns out amazing, but the sloppiness of part 1 does not fill me with confidence. So why would we not be able to say so simply because "it's not done yet."

 

[Odysseus]

Maybe I'm just an anarchist but the fact this debate can still rage four months later tells me that square made the right choice lol.

 

[ForceStealer]

Fuck that, this is an FF7 website. You think we wouldn't be discussing this all along anyway?

Actually, I seem to remember you genuinely thinking that before you played it. So maybe you just forget what this place is, lol.

 

[looneymoon]

While I go on about how I want the classic story to endure, I'm aware that nothing exists in a vacuum. I think that's why a 21st Century retelling of Final Fantasy VII presented a great opportunity in my point of view. We now live in a world in which "the 1%" is a common household term, a world in which anthropogenic climate change actively devastates the world instead of just being a dire warning, a world that creeps ever closer to transhumanism, late-stage capitalism, and a real reckoning with our own complacency in systemic oppression. I was really excited to see how these things would land anew in a story that has moustache-twirling villains making monsters for fun. I got time travelling ghosts instead.

Edit: If the whispers/timeline stuff represents a new thread of plot to keep interest in the game going between parts, to spark theories and to have old and new fans share in the unknown, and to have content creators on YouTube give Remake lots of free advertising, I'll concede that, from a marketing standpoint, there's something to it. This is one of the ways in which my thinking is definitely archaic, because I can't think of a way to do that that doesn't seem like an unnatural, shoehorned, very bad idea in the context of the story itself, which is where my interest lies. If that was the motivation behind the whispers and timeline stuff, I'm even less impressed than I was before. Allowing capitalist concerns to drive the writing isn't very in-the-spirit of FF7. I suppose something similar could be done with the larger Avalanche stuff (another great addition imo... so far <.<) but that's kind of abstract and wouldn't drum up the kind of "Comm-yoo-nee-tee engage-ment" they're going for. In short, I don't think I can answer your question.

This entire post is so good. I want to bring up some things.

Particularly this part:

I think that's why a 21st Century retelling of Final Fantasy VII presented a great opportunity in my point of view. We now live in a world in which "the 1%" is a common household term, a world in which anthropogenic climate change actively devastates the world instead of just being a dire warning, a world that creeps ever closer to transhumanism, late-stage capitalism, and a real reckoning with our own complacency in systemic oppression. I was really excited to see how these things would land anew in a story that has moustache-twirling villains making monsters for fun. I got time travelling ghosts instead.

Let's be real, FF7 stopped being about any of this as soon as it started having celebrities, pop songs playing over character deaths, and prioritizing rule of cool over all else.

I felt less betrayed by the "what does a remake really mean!?" discussion because... frankly, I don't think what FF7R has to say about it is all that profound. Force put it nicely when he said:

Are you making a change because it serves the world and plot, or because it satisfies your *dons beret* needs as an artiste? Or, even more cynically, because you want people to argue about shit on twitter?

Call me cynical, but I don't know how you can see this kind of thing isn't motivated by wanting to create buzz on social media. Without even touching how stupid the execution was, that type of authorial intent is so... corporate. Which is fundamentally at odds with what makes the FF7 the story one worth retelling :/ Obviously, the elements of the story (as Ite laid out so eloquently) are ones that the creators deem as either less important, or not interesting enough of a topic to re-explore as the focus. That is absolutely wild to me.

It's why I am completely opposed to playing into theory-crafting around this title. I feel that by doing so, I am bending into the corporate side of this game - the side where the whole purpose is to generate perpetual buzz for the next title. With a story like FF7, I am sure all of you can understand why I find it all incredibly gross?

There is an entire conversation that this boils down to expectations set by a "remake," what a "remake" means, is "remake" a pun etc. That is a fine angle to approach a remake, but personally I never understood why this was a controversy with regards to this game. My disappointment never stemmed from a philosophical discussion about what a "Remake" is. The definition of "remake" has very little to do with what I take issue with. Call me naive, but my disappointment actually came more from this:

Concerning Final Fantasy VII Remake, which is a title loaded with a lot of mystery for now, it will be different from the original Final Fantasy VII. If we make a compilation, these games will hardly have an overall coherence. It will be difficult because there is no more continuity between the Compilation and the Remake for the moment

Hindsight is 20/20, and I was definitely reading way too much into this quote. The fact is, this gave me hope that this Remake would go back to my assessment of what important elements of the story are, without as much focus on previous gimmicks. This wasn't actually a lie, but the new gimmick for this game isn't all that different from the shit I hated from those other games. Gimmicks that have, historically for this franchise, obfuscated everything @Mr. Ite outlined at the top of this post. All that stuff? Well, now everything else now takes a backseat to "surprise! there's time travel!! what does it mean!?"

I wasn't super in tune with the pre-release hype for the game, but this was the main thing I saw in regards to "The Compilation of FF7." Maybe it wasn't intentionally misleading, but I was misled by this. Had the game been more upfront with the fact that it was a Compilation entry, I probably would have had more of an expectation. I would have a better understanding that this game was committing to entries in the series that have historically deemed what I consider important as less so. My significant other, who is not a big FF7 fan like I am (but has played all the games), says that if he knew the Compilation was relevant he probably would not even bothered wasting his time. I am sure this is true for many others who went into this without knowing any better.

All of this.... just comes back to cynical corporate franchising of something. Obviously FF7 was never as punk rock as it seemed to me when I was 9, but if the creators were going to do this, I really wish they didn't use this story as their vehicle to do so.