SPOILERS FFVII Remake Open Spoiler Discussion Thread

[KindOfBlue]

It's possible that everything turns out amazing, but the sloppiness of part 1 does not fill me with confidence. So why would we not be able to say so simply because "it's not done yet."

Because a lot of what will make or break this ending is dependent on what happens in the future. Even if it’s a standalone game, it’s still an episodic story. Personally, considering how solid most of the game was, not even the ending was enough to ruin that for me mostly because I don’t have any problems with the idea of the ending, just the execution.

 

[Odysseus]

Fuck that, this is an FF7 website. You think we wouldn't be discussing this all along anyway?

Actually, I seem to remember you actually thinking that before you played it. So maybe you just forget what this place is, lol.

I dunno, if the ending wasn't so out there I don't think there'd be nearly as much to talk about. It's an obvious ploy by square to keep discussion going until the next part, so we'll see later if hubris comes to collect, but you can't say it wasn't effective.

 

[ForceStealer]

Have you seen the many-page, months-long discussions had here over the depiction of Shinra and it's employees? And the accomplishments or lack thereof of the heroes? To say nothing of the LTD. Come on, man.

It's an obvious ploy by square to keep discussion going until the next part

Yeah, that's why it feels like lousy storytelling and why it makes me nervous for future parts.

 

[KindOfBlue]

Maybe I'm just an anarchist but the fact this debate can still rage four months later tells me that square made the right choice lol.

Part of me wants Cloud to kill Aerith himself just for the reactions (but also because I think it could genuinely be an interesting narrative choice) so I guess I’m right there with you, wanting to watch the world burn

that type of authorial intent is so... corporate. Which is fundamentally at odds with what makes the FF7 the story one worth retelling

I completely understand what you’re saying, but it seems the actual creators of the game just don’t see it that way

 

[KindOfBlue]

To say nothing of the LTD. Come on, man.

Can’t speak much on the history of this site since I’m so new here, but it’s seems SE managed to create a topic of discussion that rivals the passion of even the LTD...hell, maybe that’s an accomplishment in itself! ?‍

 

[ForceStealer]

I completely understand what you’re saying, but it seems the actual creators of the game just don’t see it that way

No shit. But how does this equate to dissatisfied people's complaints all boil down to not wanting change?
How is it more "productive" to discuss how to make the Whispers better when the game is already out and the 'actual creators of the game' obviously feel the only way they're going to feel? I just don't understand your angle on this particular discussion.

Can’t speak much on the history of this site since I’m so new here, but it’s seems SE managed to create a topic of discussion that rivals the passion of even the LTD...hell, maybe that’s an accomplishment in itself! ?‍

Yeah I'll fuckin believe that when I see it. The LTD has been going on for 23 years. And is also probably the worst part of the entire FF7 fandom, so frankly I wouldn't welcome an equivalent topic of discussion.

 

[Odysseus]

Have you seen the many-page, months-long discussions had here over the depiction of Shinra and it's employees? And the accomplishments or lack thereof of the heroes? To say nothing of the LTD. Come on, man.



Yeah, that's why it feels like lousy storytelling and why it makes me nervous for future parts.

I'm speaking solely about discussion around the ending and the implications for part 2, not ff7 discussions in general.

As long as the weird stuff is reserved for the endings, I'm content with having 90% of a great game each time.

 

[ForceStealer]

But why not have 100% of a great game each time? I don't particularly look forward to three+ games where everything's great only to have this meaningless rug pulled out from under me at the end of each one just so we can "discuss" it.

 

[Odysseus]

I get a sick amusement out of square's weird stuff. I played all the damn KH games. I just laugh at it, it's not the experience destroying nightmare for me that it is for some of you (I could still do without it, mind you.)

 

[KindOfBlue]

But how does this equate to dissatisfied people's complaints all boil down to not wanting change?

I didn’t say “all”, I’m saying “some”. And it’s because of observations like this:

Yeah, that's why it feels like lousy storytelling and why it makes me nervous for future parts.

See, that’s what I’m interested in. The “why”. I just think if it was executed better, it wouldn’t feel so lousy. For some others, scrapping the idea altogether would be better because the very idea of this much change is bad. Not pointing any fingers and I’m not even saying this is a bad take either but that is what some people feel, no?

But why not have 100% of a great game

Honestly, does this even exist :/

 

[Makoeyes987]

I mean we could go the Xenogears route of greatness and have it be so great that the final chapter is literally a textual recap of what came afterwards and merely sets up the final confrontation.

That would be the cost of having it all be upfront, since there's no way it would wrap up itself within a single game to make sense right now.

At the end of the day, a lot of this Remake's understanding is going to be retrospective due to the nature of the medium. This Remake series is split, meaning there will be conclusions that aren't true conclusions. Merely temporary cliffhangers that are confusing in the moment due to the lack of context that won't come until much later in release.

We will be back here 3 or 4 years from now fully understanding what has happened in Part 1. And then we'll be confused about what's happened with Part 2.

 

[KindOfBlue]

Calling it now, the very last boss of the last game is Nomura himself

 

[Ite]

Call me cynical, but I don't know how you can see this kind of thing isn't motivated by wanting to create buzz on social media.

I mean, I don't believe that's exclusively what happened. The Barret death fake out was at least partly motivated by a design obligation to not have him in the party during the Jenova fight. And I think the whispers are at least somewhat an artistic expression of the writer's frustrations (read: tantrum) about how much the project will be scrutinized. Either way, it's outside-in writing.

Call me cynical, but I don't know how you can see this kind of thing isn't motivated by wanting to create buzz on social media.

It's why I am completely opposed to playing into theory-crafting around this title. I feel that by doing so, I am bending into the corporate side of this game - the side where the whole purpose is to generate perpetual buzz for the next title. With a story like FF7, I am sure all of you can understand why I find it all incredibly gross?

Mood, sister.

My significant other, who is not a big FF7 fan like I am (but has played all the games), says that if he knew the Compilation was relevant he probably would not even bothered wasting his time. I am sure this is true for many others who went into this without knowing any better.

I knew that at the last second they added some characters from the novels but at that point I'd played the demo and was over the moon hyped. I am not the Comp's most rabid detractor (shocking I know) but knowing that the writers explicitly place this entry as the latest in a series of FF7 titles instead of as a true entry point would have managed my expectations much better. Being branded as an entry point is a huge part of what I take issue with, and the arguments to the tune of "it has to be different" and "it's not meant to replace the OG" never seem to acknowledge this explicitly dubious aspect of the marketing.

Also, while I have nothing to add to their posts, I emphatically love everything @ForceStealer and @Obsidian Fire have said today.

 

[Makoeyes987]

An "entry point" is highly subjective and honestly more a function of the entry's overall quality and ability to hook it's audience into the world it's showcasing. Being an easy, tried-and-true method of introduction is actually not a requirement, otherwise there'd be plenty of series that would have died because they simply never gave themselves entry points that met that. One Piece, Dragonball, Jojo, Star Trek, the list goes on.

For instance, there's almost as many fans of Star Wars who have come into the franchise thanks to the prequels and the Clone Wars series, instead of the original trilogy. The prequels and Clone Wars series were never meant as an "entry point" into Star Wars, but it became that way due to the continued popularity and presence within pop culture. There are a lot of people who know Anakin first, and Vader second instead of the other way around, and it still allows people to get into the original trilogy and love that for what it is.

The Remake is functioning in that respect. People aren't that plused about having this being not a complete 1:1 entry or fully fleshed out explanation of what is present. That's the appeal, and they enjoy the ride for the entertainment and engrossment it gives. That's enough to be a functional entry point that will allow the experience to anchor itself into their consciousness.

Call me cynical, but I don't know how you can see this kind of thing isn't motivated by wanting to create buzz on social media. Without even touching how stupid the execution was, that type of authorial intent is so... corporate. Which is fundamentally at odds with what makes the FF7 the story one worth retelling :/ Obviously, the elements of the story (as Ite laid out so eloquently) are ones that the creators deem as either less important, or not interesting enough of a topic to re-explore as the focus. That is absolutely wild to me.

It's why I am completely opposed to playing into theory-crafting around this title. I feel that by doing so, I am bending into the corporate side of this game - the side where the whole purpose is to generate perpetual buzz for the next title. With a story like FF7, I am sure all of you can understand why I find it all incredibly gross?

That's a statement to it's authenticity and genuine intention to tell a story in a straightforward creative way.

So there's a glaring counterpoint to that. If they really wanted to take the corporate, safer option to maximize profits and exert the least amount of effort to manipulate the audience for cash, they could have simply did the same thing twice, pull out the old script, dust it off, touch it up, call it a day, and rake in the money.

This entire Remake saga is an explicitly extra and painstakingly convoluted project that requires more genuine creative energy, development and effort than a simple cash-in remake built to simply manipulate and create demand for "product." That is antithetical to any sort of simple merchandising and commercialized affair. You could argue that certain Compilation entries fall under that definition (DC, BC, DC Lost Episode, etc), but going this far to craft, retool and capture the minutiae storyline details of their fantasy world, go above and beyond what came before in terms of scope, especially when the easier option would be the most profitable, just doesn't fit that definition. Especially in terms of business/profit effort to outcomes. This is not simply a corporate cash in. That would be something like a simple re-release or retelling that goes 1:1, is episodic and changes next to nothing. They did something dramatically wild which they've wanted to do in a passionate way. This is wildly risky, in terms of branding. They're re-writing their own hot franchise, which could have failed and landed horribly wrong. It didn't, and that's why it's still able to continue. This was not a safe branding bet for the corporate side of Square at all. Independent of the Remake's quality or overall future success, this all clearly is not something that is a result of trying to be more corporately safe. They put the brand on the line.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Because a lot of what will make or break this ending is dependent on what happens in the future. Even if it’s a standalone game, it’s still an episodic story.

This isn't quite the case. I've been playing an episodic story for the last... 5-6 years by now (FFXIV). And there's been some bad endings/conclusions that were the set-up for some fantastic stories, but those endings still feel bad to watch when I'm at that point in the story. On the flip-side, there's some fantastic endings/conclusions that were the set-up for some mediocre stories.

Heck, I went into Shadowbringers very much not liking where the story was going all because of how the patch immediately before it went. And Shadowbringers has some of the best storytelling from the FF franchise in the last decade. I still really don't like the way the last expansion ended to set Shadowbringers up because it doesn't make character development sense in my mind for various reasons.

On the flip side, the ending of Heavensward leading into Stormblood was just about perfect... only Stormblood didn't capitalize on it as well as it could have. But the final patch of Heaveansward has one of the best conclusions and set-ups in the game.

If an ending has a feeling of "what the heck happened there?" at the end of it, what comes after doesn't magically make that ending disappear. Make it not as bad, maybe. But it doesn't fix how it was executed and what the first impressions of it was. And first impressions are worth a lot in video games when it comes to deciding how a player feels about something.

Going into the next installment expecting to be disappointed because of how the last installment ended really sucks. It feels a lot like you're setting yourself up for failure and hoping against hope that the devs actually can pull the next section of the story off. I really hope FF7: Remake Part 2 can do that...

 

[KindOfBlue]

What you described is exactly why I have the attitude that I have though, I’m not strongly against the ending because it’s possible that this turns out well and I genuinely like the possibilities it opens up but I also get why some may be concerned. More than anything, I just need to see where it goes before I can make my final judgement.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

My expectation of Part II is that I'll be thrilled, delighted, surprised, annoyed and disappointed in equal measure.

 

[ForceStealer]

So there's a glaring counterpoint to that. If they really wanted to take the corporate, safer option to maximize profits and exert the least amount of effort to manipulate the audience for cash, they could have simply did the same thing twice, pull out the old script, dust it off, touch it up, call it a day, and rake in the money.

It is true that I just about never assume simple greed on Square's missteps. It's very obvious they enjoy what they're doing and are not Activision or Ubisoft. It's clear an immense amount of care went into the remake. It's why it is as great as it is! But I do think they calculated a way to chase community engagement, which I don't think is the same thing as a lootbox or something. It's not greedy (at least, not in a monetary sense), but it isn't for the benefit of the story, either.

Honestly, does this even exist :/

I was assuming 90% wasn't an exact figure either, let's not be pedantic here, lol.

My expectation of Part II is that I'll be thrilled, delighted, surprised, annoyed and disappointed in equal measure.

Which I suppose is what I expected for Part 1. But for so much of part 1 it emphatically defied that expectation. I was thrilled, delighted and pleasantly surprised far more than anything else. Then it really yanked the other way almost all at once.

 

[Makoeyes987]

It is true that I just about never assume simple greed on Square's missteps. It's very obvious they enjoy what they're doing and are not Activision or Ubisoft. It's clear an immense amount of care went into the remake. It's why it is as great as it is! But I do think they calculated a way to chase community engagement, which I don't think is the same thing as a lootbox or something. It's not greedy (at least, not in a monetary sense), but it isn't for the benefit of the story, either.

That just simply flows from a basic understanding of sequential releasing and the fact that this is being broken up into multiple games. The fact it's going to be a multi-game saga meant it was always going to be this way in terms of buzz, regardless of if it were a complete retelling of FFVII without any extra stuff, or what we got now. People were going to be talking because there would be a gap between each entry and they would clearly leave each entry at a cliffhanger for maximum impact.

I don't think it goes any further than that. They've done it before, after all.

 

[ForceStealer]

People were going to be talking because there would be a gap between each entry

This is what I'm saying The game gave you a natural cliffhanger. Or unfinished highway hanger, as it were, they didn't have to go all 2001 at the end to ensure that

 

[KindOfBlue]

I guess my enjoyment of part 1 heavily outweighs most of my concerns for the future because I didn’t see the ending as so much of a departure from what the creators already established themselves that won’t eventually be resolved...your mileage may vary, as they say, but knowing it was made by the OG creators and OG fans gives me a great deal of confidence

 

[ForceStealer]

My enjoyment of part 1 heavily outweighs the dumb stuff at the end when it comes to having enjoyed Part 1. The game is my personal game of the year by a country mile and I highly doubt anything will even challenge it. The negative effects are almost entirely on my concern for the future.

Because now, Hearts have been broken. They've played the card that shit is different now. Because that card was the surprise for the end of Part 1, 90% of part 1 is a pretty faithful exploration of events. Now that's all out the window. So even from the word go on Part 2, everything's different.

 

[Odysseus]

I guess my enjoyment of part 1 heavily outweighs most of my concerns for the future because I didn’t see the ending as so much of a departure from what the creators already established themselves that won’t eventually be resolved...your mileage may vary, as they say, but knowing it was made by the OG creators and OG fans gives me a great deal of confidence

My thought is that, despite all the weird stuff, the party is ostensibly still in the exact same situation they were originally. Sephiroth is out there, he's up to no good, and we have to stop him to save the world. Nothing has really changed that drastically despite everything, hell, now Barret has a better reason to trust cloud since he's seen the threat firsthand. I know it's not everyone's cup of tea, but I'm not that worried.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Sephiroth(s) is/are out there, he/they are up to no good, and we have to stop him/them to save the world. Nothing has really changed that drastically despite everything....

Fixed that for ya

Sorry, but that was just too easy. I saw the opening...

 

[KindOfBlue]

everything's different.

I think most of this is because they want the audience to think Aerith might survive honestly, but also to allow the creators the liberty to make changes whererever they want instead of being beholden to the limits of the OG. Question is, how far will they go? I still think the destination will be the same, albeit with many detours. Of course, I could be 100% wrong but we’ll see!