SPOILERS FFVII Remake Open Spoiler Discussion Thread

[Makoeyes987]

But we've already had people surviving impalement thanks to immediately being healed afterwards.

We've not seen anyone just simply die from a sword to the chest. Whether it be from magical time-space ghosts, or being thrown in a tube with magic fluid from the planet inside, people can seemingly survive the most fatal of injuries if given immediate magic first aid.

... Unless they're a woman kneeling on an alter in prayer. Then you're just fucked. Sorry. No hope.

 

[Ite]

... Unless they're a woman kneeling on an alter in prayer. Then you're just fucked. Sorry. No hope.

We’ll see about that.

 

[ForceStealer]

I’m firmly in the “Oops just kidding, ignore all that” camp because while they’ve already killed 7R for me at least I can get some gifs out of it if they stop fucking around.

lol, you always take the pessimism just a step further than I. But the opportunity is totally there for them to do so. After all, we've ostensibly killed them all. If, like I suggested above, the mechanism of the Arbiters of Fate was future!Sephiroth's Hail Mary. Somehow offered him a route to the past, but also prevented him from changing it. Therefore his only hope was to go back and convince Cloud to kill them. Thus severing his connection to the past but also allowing for just a chance that things might go his way this time.
If that's what happens, I'll be right as rain. But we know that's not what's happening, lol. Future!Sephiroth is going to continue to poke around and intervene when convenient for a cliffhanger, instead of doing what he would actually do if he were smart and could access the past. Just get the Black Materia to his past self and say "Cast it now."

Especially seeing as how Compilation voice actors are actually still involved, just in minor roles.

I almost said that, but I wasn't certain and was too cba to check, lol.

 

[minami758]

Full disclosure, I'm in the camp that thinks the "defying fate" thing is a red herring for the most part and that the Whispers subplot is just part of an elaborate mousetrap. (Jury's still out on whether I actually vibe with this idea or not, but it's the camp I'm in right now. Who knows where I'll be in a few months.)

So if I could posit a theme that might be compelling — that even after believing they've defeated the Whispers, the characters cannot help but do things that lead to the tentpole events of the OG FF7. Because while they can defy fate, perhaps they can't defy themselves. Because that's just who they are as people. And that maybe fate can actually be "remade," but not without more loss/sacrifice along the way.

Some might find it too hopeless or dark in light of the possibility that fate can be changed, but finding hope in the face of hopelessness is a theme already present in the OG, and would also work within the confines of these "defying fate" shenanigans.

 

[Makoeyes987]

If, like I suggested above, the mechanism of the Arbiters of Fate was future!Sephiroth's Hail Mary. Somehow offered him a route to the past, but also prevented him from changing it. Therefore his only hope was to go back and convince Cloud to kill them. Thus severing his connection to the past but also allowing for just a chance that things might go his way this time.
If that's what happens, I'll be right as rain. But we know that's not what's happening, lol. Future!Sephiroth is going to continue to poke around and intervene when convenient for a cliffhanger, instead of doing what he would actually do if he were smart and could access the past. Just get the Black Materia to his past self and say "Cast it now."

That very well could be a possibility. Aside from the number of Sephiroths, the function and outcome for the world and the narrative itself, would essentially be the same. It would be the journey and implementation of the game that would be different. That's an example of how the story of the Remake playing itself out within FFVII, could still fundamentally leave the core FFVII story to play out the same.

 

[Rydeen]

Calling it now, the very last boss of the last game is Nomura himself

You mean we finally get to kick his ass?

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Does the Remake have any coherent themes, over and above the ones that came from the OG?

 

[Makoeyes987]

I think it's a word that starts with "D" and ends in "iny"

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I said coherent themes.

Destiny is just a great big amorphously blobby kind of meaningless concept

 

[looneymoon]

a theme can't be one word

 

[Makoeyes987]

Pfft, well I mean. Destiny is a pretty coherent theme. I think your real question is if it should be within FFVII at all.

I mean you can argue it's place, but it is coherent. The characters are faced with the question of what's out there waiting for them to face in terms of their future while Sephiroth is seemingly pulling their strings and aware of events beyond anyone's cognizance.

Aerith is on the same axis, except at the opposite end, and as a benevolent force. Yet there's something that leaves her uneasy about said future.

Everyone here is, in essence, trying to break out of the role and future that lies in front of them, which surprisingly includes Sephiroth himself.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I think we had this discussion before. Can we change our fate? No, we can't. Whatever happens to you, that's your fate. Maybe in video games and movies where time loops exist, people can go back and make things happen differently, but that's just trite wish fulfillment. In real life, there are no time loops and no do-overs.

 

[looneymoon]

idk how coherent it really is. my s-o flat out had no idea what was going on in that final chapter. when i was explaining about how it was about changing destiny and time travelling ghosts, his response was "that is the stupidest thing I have ever heard" and would not have it when I tried to convince him that it was true

it wasn't until his favourite youtubers echoed the same things I was saying that he believed

(I'm still salty about that, this is just an excuse to complain)

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Does the Remake have any coherent themes, over and above the ones that came from the OG?

I think it's a word that starts with "D" and ends in "iny"

I think it's really just extending the premise of the OG's examination of the emotional & existential struggles with life & death, and digging in deeper into the surrounding questions of what actually matters to us and why we experience what we do when someone dies. That hits at the core of self-identity, what we value, and what drives out inner purpose, which is... basically the whole story.



X

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I quite like the Whispers as metaphors for OG players who don't want the story of the Remake to deviate in any way from the original. Unfortunately, the Whispers didn't act consistently enough for that.

I get it that some people find this "can we go back to our pasts and un-write our stories, can we become or do something different?" very interesting. I just don't, because in real life the answer is No. What I loved about FFVII, what made it so profound to me, was that it had important, interesting things to say about real life issues: death, hope, despair, capitalism, consumerism, environmentalism. Yes, it wasn't "realistic", but its foundational themes were.

That said, I can see why the writers of the Remake would want to take this route. Can they go back to this story and do something different with it? Will they be allowed to? That's more interesting than "destiny".

@ X-Soldier - but when death is essentially meaningless, or at best whimsical, it can't have anything meaningful to say about those themes

 

[Ite]

lol, you always take the pessimism just a step further than I.

I'm happy to be the extreme that keeps you from simping too hard to center, even if I look like a wangrod

Re: Destiny as a thematic topic. Looney said it, but you need to put the thematic topic in a sentence in order for it to be a theme. We use the two terms interchangeably, but when actually trying to discuss what the theme is, we need to actually have a theme.

Possible theme of FF7R: "Those with the power to change destiny will do so, even to their detriment."

 

[Makoeyes987]

I think we had this discussion before. Can we change our fate? No, we can't. Whatever happens to you, that's your fate. Maybe in video games and movies where time loops exist, people can go back and make things happen differently, but that's just trite wish fulfillment. In real life, there are no time loops and no do-overs.

The nature of "Fate" is beyond a simple yes or no question. Does fate actually exist? And if we have free will, then that means by it's very nature it's not firmly rooted in predestination because of the existence of choice. Unless Fate is a conscious actor working to undermine our choice and thwart us every step of the way. Which then leaves it as a question of how much force is necessary to exert one's will to enact change within our world.

So no, it's not really quite that simple of a question Add in the wrinkle of time travel and then it really goes nuts.

And we're not in real life. So....

idk how coherent it really is. my s-o flat out had no idea what was going on in that final chapter. when i was explaining about how it was about changing destiny and time travelling ghosts, his response was "that is the stupidest thing I have ever heard" and would not have it when I tried to convince him that it was true

it wasn't until his favourite youtubers echoed the same things I was saying that he believed

(I'm still salty about that, this is just an excuse to complain)

Some people just have a natural affinity for these kinds of plots. They simply make sense on their face while for others they stray so far beyond the bounds of reality that they just come off as weird ephemeral nonsense. It's like how for some the premise of card games on motorcycles sounds completely insane and unsafe while for others... They feel hyped!

 

[ForceStealer]

I quite like the Whispers as metaphors for OG players who don't want the story of the Remake to deviate in any way from the original. Unfortunately, the Whispers didn't act consistently enough for that.

Totally agreed.

 

[Tetsujin]

I think it's a word that starts with "D" and ends in "iny"

Dicliny? I mean, Aerith is a flower girl but it wasn't that heavy on botany themes.

 

[ForceStealer]

How much searching did that take?

 

[Tetsujin]

About 3 minutes, google is a very powerful tool

 

[Makoeyes987]

Dicliny

Exactly.

We need more discourse on how the Remake reflects the aspects of Dicliny in Botany and how it's so important for reproductive fitness in plant life.

 

[Odysseus]

Maybe that's why the flowers are so low res

 

[Ite]

Some people just have a natural affinity for these kinds of plots. They simply make sense on their face while for others they stray so far beyond the bounds of reality that they just come off as weird ephemeral nonsense. It's like how for some the premise of card games on motorcycles sounds completely insane and unsafe while for others... They feel hyped!

Totally disagree. I love tt, I obsess about tt. I love thinking about the nature of time, and having a story go beyond what is possible in real life to explore that question is extra super duper compelling to me. And, while there are areas in life to which I am quite dunceful, following along with the barest of fantasy explanations and picking up story clues comes naturally to me, and I'm obviously a fan of nerding out about tiny stuff, or else I wouldn't be here. To me, tt plots only come off as "weird ephemeral nonsense" when they are weird ephemeral nonsense, when the writers just do stuff without thinking it through. And as I said a few pages ago when I started ranting, you can have a half-baked tt plot that's still awesome -- the times in which 12 Monkeys contradicts its own established pseudoscience are meant to evoke the feeling of madness and uncertainty that the main character feels, and since all the incongruities are happening inside of his dreams, it remains a damn solid tt flick. Looper goes out of it's way to say "Don't worry about it" and all the people in charge of BttF are clowns, so their nonsensical nature produces intended laughter and a shift in focus away from the details.

FF7 is a hard fantasy setting, and the softest, gooiest, most half-baked time travel plot possible isn't exactly like chocolate to peanut butter. It's not that I don't have an affinity for this kind of thing. It's that the thing sucks. It wants to be seen as deep but it isn't. The closer you look at it, the less it makes sense.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I wasn't just referring to the time travel plot, I was referring to the entirety of the Remake's premise.

And I definitely wouldn't say FFVII's fantasy setting is so hard that it can't fit time travel. That's simply not true at all. If FFIX, which basically transplants the entirety of FFVII's fantastical world building, can fit time travel into it's universe, then why would VII be incapable of it? They work on the same fundamental world building rules of spirit energy and memories, which can warp space and open up paths to the future and past. That's not really a hard and fast barrier that can't be crossed within their world. There are no rules being broken and it certainly doesn't contradict itself. It's just new.