SPOILERS FFVII Remake Open Spoiler Discussion Thread

[Shademp]

Watching Zack survive was a painful experience, particularly the first time. I felt the dignity leave the Remake and instead I was presented with sugar-coated wish-fulfillment that made my ears deaf with the screams of a million fanboys and fangirls who have wanted to see this version of events for so many years. Countless AU fanfics manifested in front of my eyes and the Remake looked like a pandering mess. I felt second-hand grossness on behalf of Remake...and then the game descends even further into madness by showing a scene where Biggs survives. Props to Remake for going lower even when I thought it wouldn't.


FFVII has an on-and-off relationship with its depiction of the finality of death and the emotions therein. Aerith dies but she becomes such a powerful agent afterwards that she might as well be a Force ghost from Star Wars (particularly so in Advent Children). Zack dies dramatically in Crisis Core but the game's pop-song ending injects unreasonable amounts of happiness into it. Angeal stayed surprisingly dead and even his likeness in the final Angeal copies, Lazard and the creature who carried Aerith's final letter, are allowed to die in solemn quiet. But then the extended FFVII universe also likes to revive people who were dead or presumed dead: Tseng, Rufus, Don Corneo, Sephiroth, Jenova, Hojo...and now with FFVIIR, Zack and Biggs.

Remake may try the poignant thing of Zack and Biggs ultimately having to die anyway, and they will try to make us believe Aerith might survive and then she'll die anyway. Some scales might then balance back towards the finality of death, but we'll still have the overall problem plaguing FFVII lore as a whole: Its theme of loss isn't so much a core theme as it is a general guideline...and very little forces FFVII to follow it.

 

[Makoeyes987]

The fact that Aerith and Zack's deaths are seen as so sacrosanct is precisely the reason they're being toyed with now. If they left them alone, that's a lion's share of "FFVII" being left safely frozen in materia. The protection of what came before in terms of the world returning to normal, is a "stake" for the story, in a twisted sense of the narrative. It's a paradoxical challenge being rubbed right in our faces. If their intent is to tell a dynamic story that's meant to go beyond the borders of what came before, with a reset of expectations for the audience... They have to show willingness to challenge their own performative limits, and the limits of the player.

Does that mean they must ultimately completely undo what they've done thematically with their story/characters in that regard? No, of course not, and I don't think that's what they plan to do, either. But their willingness to challenge just how far FFVII is willing to stay FFVII makes it that much more interesting and opens the door to at least, explore something new and different with the characters and the themes presented thus far. They're in essence, unwilling actors in a repeat of their previous adventure, half-aware of how things may go or were "meant" to go. That can dive deep into some interesting interactions and feelings, and some places that some might not wish to go. However, if you're gonna open pandora's box, that's sorta what happens. At the very least, they can tease and examine these things without ultimately shattering what came before. That's the whole point of this. And Zack being paradoxically present for us yet still deceased in Cloud's past and present, can offer up an interesting collision between illusion, reality, and the wish for a future that ultimately cannot exist. There's plenty that can be done, it's just a matter of if the writer's are going to actually do it, or just make it some fake and escapist Hallmark happy ending that would be an ultimate betrayal of what those deaths were meant to represent. I really don't see them doing that, and I hope to ultimately be proven right.

...Just like I was with the Silver-Haired Rainbow Whispers.

 

[crazyrabbits23]

Watching Zack survive was a painful experience, particularly the first time. I felt the dignity leave the Remake and instead I was presented with sugar-coated wish-fulfillment that made my ears deaf with the screams of a million fanboys and fangirls who have wanted to see this version of events for so many years. Countless AU fanfics manifested in front of my eyes and the Remake looked like a pandering mess. I felt second-hand grossness on behalf of Remake...and then the game descends even further into madness by showing a scene where Biggs survives. Props to Remake for going lower even when I thought it wouldn't.

I was fairly indifferent with the scene. I didn't play Crisis Core (never owned a PSP), and thus my familiarity with the character was due to pop-cultural osmosis/the game's reception increasing over the years.

Honestly, my biggest problem with the scene (and a few other moments in the game) rely on the viewer's slavish familiarity with the Compilation. Kyrie, the second Avalanche unit, Zack, AC... when you look at reactions to the scene online, it tends to fall into one of two categories:

1) The viewer who knows who Zack is and is losing their shit (OMGWTFITSZACKOHCHRISTHOWISHEALIVEWTFWTFZACK), or
2) The viewer who has no idea who the character is ("Who is this guy, what's his role, and why's he carrying Cloud's sword?")

The scene does a weak job of telegraphing who Zack is or what his purpose is for new players. They drop a couple breadcrumbs early on in the game (the dream/fragmented memory of him before the church scene) then leave it completely vacant until the cutscene drops him in with no warning. You either already knew who he was implicitly, or you were left scratching your head at why this character (who may or may not be in an alt timeline) is dressed sort-of-the-same as the protagonist and is dragging him around while making references about his own improbable survival. It's a game that's so slavish to its continuity (not necessarily a bad thing) that it can leave players who aren't familiar with the EU out in the cold.

But then again, that plays into my whole indifference with the ending. Not with the way the Whispers are portrayed or their presence seemingly changing the timeline, but the whole "quick, we've got five minutes to wrap this up - package everything in a neat little bow while changing as much as we can" vibe got old quick.

 

[Clement Rage]

They can't telegraph it because otherwise it spoils the story for newcomers.

We don't really know what's up with Zack yet. If he's back for good for free with no consequences, then I won't like it, but I'm still waiting to see what happens.

Obviously authors can do whatever they want, but the way it generally turns out when they keep going back to tweak things (e.g. Stephen King, J.K. Rowling, George Lucas, etc.) is they do it in a way that doesn't blend well or that fans at the very least are dissatisfied with.

I think that's fandom entitlement more than anything else.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I mean, to be honest, it's not exactly the responsibility of creators to give fans what they want. They owe fans nothing. On the other hand, if you completely ignore what the fans want, you risk losing your source of income.

 

[crazyrabbits23]

They can't telegraph it because otherwise it spoils the story for newcomers.

It's a scene that exists in a vacuum, that occurs at a high-stakes moment in the narrative (the final confrontation between the heroes and the villain in the game) and is introduced with no fanfare, no context and no resolution. It relies on your understanding of another tie-in work to make any sense - I mean, I understand who the character is, what the significance of this location is and can posit a few theories about whether this is an alt timeline or not, but it exists independently of the main narrative and requires you to have an "All There in The Manual" mentality.

You don't have to spoil who Zack is or what he did, but you need some kind of context that better explains who this guy is, why he's here and what he's doing. If I didn't know any better, I'd say him saying, "Cloud, did you see that?" while motioning to a rock might be evidence of an undiagnosed mental illness/trauma from the preceding fight, not a heroic display of bravado he's making towards his semi-comatose friend/soldier.

 

[Claymore]

Got to echo what Clement states. There was no way to expand upon that scene without spoiling literally the main crux of the game. And we also need to remember that this is only the first part - not everything introduced is going to be resolved at this point in time. He's a mystery, that's all you need to know for now, and it's working, as it's generated a lot of discussion to newcomers concerning who he is, what his relationship to Cloud is, and the story going forward.

 

[Odysseus]

I was kinda shocked Zack's name was in the subtitles. I guess that doesn't really spoil anything, it'll just increase the mystery at Gongaga, but still.

 

[Sephiroth Crescent]

So, what if it was meteorfall the event which triggers the Whispers and forces them to make the Whisper barrier around Midgar?
Or, what if the entire remake happens within Holy's flash at the time of meteorfall? (I think I read somebody here pointing to that as a possibility)

Or something and something-something...
Theory-making machine goes brrr!

 

[cold_spirit]

Allowing capitalist concerns to drive the writing isn't very in-the-spirit of FF7.

I've seen this sentiment a few times and it's not sitting right with me. I hate to be the guy that goes "well actually" because I know you're aware of the issues I'm about to bring up, but...

Quick reality check: the OG was the most expensive game ever for it's time, with over half of its costs dedicated to marketing. There was a collaboration with Coca-Cola after the OG's release, a company that leads the world in plastic pollution. There's this sexist job ad featuring Tifa, and don't get me started on how capitalism and sexism are linked.

The OG was created in a capitalistic economy for hordes of consumers. To imply that inciting Twitter debates is against the spirit of FF7 is giving way too much credit to the corporations involved with the creation of the OG in '97. Capitalism was just as vile and prevalent in the 90's as it is today.

I understand the OG has anti-capitalism and pro-environmental themes and I do believe the core developers are genuine in their writing. But if I'm being truly critical and real with myself, I'd say the OG only gives lip service to those issues. I am not aware of any initiatives by Square to actually practice what it preaches.

I feel like we're romanticizing the creation of the OG a bit too much. It is not innocent and naive. The 90's were not innocent and naive. It may seem that way because a lot of us grew up in that time period, but make no mistake, the OG is only possible because of rampant capitalism, and it definitely contributes to the system that birthed it. In fact, the OG is arguably Square's biggest contribution to modern capitalism.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Any work of art with a message needs to surf the capitalism system if it is going to reach its audience. That's just how we've arranged things. Even if you were the purest-of-pure auteur indie game makers and you found yourself with a palpable hit thanks to word-of-mouth promotion alone, you would inevitably succumb to the pressure to monetise your hot product, because nearly everybdy dreams of financial security and the freedom it brings.

 

[cold_spirit]

I'm sorry, nothing that I wrote excuses Remake for featuring writing that doesn't click with some people. I guess I just wanted an excuse to write down some thoughts that had been in my brain since Remake's collaboration with Butterfinger lol.

 

[Odysseus]

Sorry

 

[Wol]

It's possible to create a quality game that hits sucessfully the capitalist market, its just harder to achieve that apparently.

You can do that without creating artificial story surprises just to wow people in detriment of story coherence.

 

[looneymoon]

Agree with @cold_spirit . My point was that it's deflating the story - the issues that actually matter are no longer the focal point, and tossed aside in favour of....... stuff that doesn't really make sense, in order to cause an explosion twitter. The game is intentionally metatextual, but my argument was that the way meta-text functions is incongruous with what the actual text has to say (and others have made points how that applies to things if we look outside the corporatism theme here).

edit: I'd also disagree that the OG pays lip service to these ideas, but I understand what you're saying.

If we really wanted to get super into it, there is probably some sort of environmental and/or labour cost within the development cycle of any AAA vidya in general, but that wasn't really what I was trying to get at seriously tho, how much does Square pay? I wanna pitch them that puppet idea, the merch potential ALONE...

At the end of it, if the focus of this destiny stuff swerves the focus to what makes the story one worth retelling... I can imagine how that could maybe work, if I completely forget what their writing is like. Now that the writers have given a heads up on this "new story," and looking at their more recent body of work... I think there's enough to say that they've already fucked up.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Someone was mentioning on Discord how if you look at the order the last few Compilation games came out, there's an uptick in "destiny" as a theme.

Namely, you get something like this...

DoC: (a) It's Vincent's "destiny" (thematically) to confront Omega as the vessel of Chaos. The Cetra Tablets in DoC link the two WEAPONs together at least and both are only supposed to show up at an "end" of the Lifstream's time in... it's physical location.
(b) DoC ends with Genesis waking up and flying away to do... something... we never figure out what...

CC: (a) Genesis is... obsessed... with living out/causing the story in Loveless to play out. More so after he falls in the Lifestream in Modeoheim. His "salvation" is directly linked to him accepting that he's not the one playing the role of the Hero from Loveless, but that of the Prisoner. The one playing the role of the Hero is linked to Zack here...

And then Nomura has said how he had the idea that would become Remake not long after working on Crisis Core. And that he thought of it as the Culmination of the Compilation of FFVII. And now we have a Remake where Destiny really is something the cast thinks they can go stop/kill...

Granted... a lot of that stuff isn't the things a lot of people liked about the compilation... but it was edging its way into it. So... maybe it's not as surprising it could be... from the creator's perspective, we could have been heading for this theme for a lot longer than we thought.

 

[Makoeyes987]

The ultimate critique here I think, is if the body of work (i.e. the game) is an expression of genuine creative passion or merely a deliberated corporate and profit-driven exercise of minimalist effort. People look for that core of authenticity and go from there, not just in terms of it's themes, but the actual expression of the final product.

I don't think anyone is expecting a workers revolutionary manifesto in the shape of a video game to sail out of a Japanese corporate video game company in 2020. If they are, then they're highly mistaken and expecting blood from a stone. I think the real thing players are looking for, is an authenticity of experience, and something beyond a rote or derivative work/product. An interesting, challenging and engrossing experience that gets them stimulated and thinking among themselves. It's what separates memorable, popular and acclaimed games from derivative AAA titles that last a year before they're traded out for the next.

The FFVII of today certainly doesn't turn a blind eye to the harsh realities of it's world. I don't believe FFVII-R's surreal, and lofty fantasy themes regarding it's own meta-plot, are necessarily to the exclusion of it's more poignant and real-world relevant topics. Is it a lot to juggle? Sure, but that's never stopped FFVII before with it's wacky, whimsical RPG antics in 1997, and never stopped any other FF since. We're confronted with the same conflict of humanity vs. nature, the on-the-nose critique of depleting natural resources, the underclass struggle against what's essentially a corporate fascist world ruling regime, and the search of true identity within the psychological maze of personal trauma. Add to that the intentional disinformation and public smearing that the main characters have to endure, the tragedy of losing it all to forces far greater than the individual, all while weighing doing immediate good for the people hurt by their fighting versus staying the course to achieve their larger goals. Oh, and revenge. When you look at how the Remake handles the characters it brings to life amongst all these elements, you can plainly see this is not the work of a phoned-in project looking to cash in on itself. They reflect a wider humanity and character than we've seen before, and it's certainly more than what we had to work with in the comparable section of the game. Barret's character has been given the respect and wholeness that could only be interpreted before. Cloud's ego is far more fleshed out with the cracks of his cool persona highlighted in humorous and interesting ways. Aerith's vibrancy, Tifa's emotions and friendship, and the wider look at how they all interact are features that highlight the most of what FFVII is, regardless of what some magical fairy show we take Chapter 18 to be. That's all still going to be present, and to somehow think it won't ignores the reality of game development and the writing behind it in the first place. This was ultimately all intentional. How much it all fits together in the Remake is something that will only be apparent once we see the characters go through more and more of this plot, so we can do a relative comparison to actually see what the work itself communicates. There's still so much of FFVII that is left to cover, and trying to gauge how much of the Remake will still be in line with itself when we've only barely scratched the surface of it's coverage, is like astrology at this point.

 

[Ite]

The ultimate critique here I think, is if the body of work (i.e. the game) is an expression of genuine creative passion or merely a deliberated corporate and profit-driven exercise of minimalist effort. People look for that core of authenticity and go from there, not just in terms of it's themes, but the actual expression of the final product.

I don't think anyone is expecting a workers revolutionary manifesto in the shape of a video game to sail out of a Japanese corporate video game company in 2020. If they are, then they're highly mistaken and expecting blood from a stone. I think the real thing players are looking for, is an authenticity of experience, and something beyond a rote or derivative work/product. An interesting, challenging and engrossing experience that gets them stimulated and thinking among themselves. It's what separates memorable, popular and acclaimed games from derivative AAA titles that last a year before they're traded out for the next.

The FFVII of today certainly doesn't turn a blind eye to the harsh realities of it's world. I don't believe FFVII-R's surreal, and lofty fantasy themes regarding it's own meta-plot, are necessarily to the exclusion of it's more poignant and real-world relevant topics. Is it a lot to juggle? Sure, but that's never stopped FFVII before with it's wacky, whimsical RPG antics in 1997, and never stopped any other FF since. We're confronted with the same conflict of humanity vs. nature, the on-the-nose critique of depleting natural resources, the underclass struggle against what's essentially a corporate fascist world ruling regime, and the search of true identity within the psychological maze of personal trauma. Add to that the intentional disinformation and public smearing that the main characters have to endure, the tragedy of losing it all to forces far greater than the individual, all while weighing doing immediate good for the people hurt by their fighting versus staying the course to achieve their larger goals. Oh, and revenge. When you look at how the Remake handles the characters it brings to life amongst all these elements, you can plainly see this is not the work of a phoned-in project looking to cash in on itself. They reflect a wider humanity and character than we've seen before, and it's certainly more than what we had to work with in the comparable section of the game. Barret's character has been given the respect and wholeness that could only be interpreted before. Cloud's ego is far more fleshed out with the cracks of his cool persona highlighted in humorous and interesting ways. Aerith's vibrancy, Tifa's emotions and friendship, and the wider look at how they all interact are features that highlight the most of what FFVII is, regardless of what some magical fairy show we take Chapter 18 to be. That's all still going to be present, and to somehow think it won't ignores the reality of game development and the writing behind it in the first place. This was ultimately all intentional. How much it all fits together in the Remake is something that will only be apparent once we see the characters go through more and more of this plot, so we can do a relative comparison to actually see what the work itself communicates. There's still so much of FFVII that is left to cover, and trying to gauge how much of the Remake will still be in line with itself when we've only barely scratched the surface of it's coverage, is like astrology at this point.

Well said.

My initial read on FF7R is that it's too up its own ass, not necessarily that it's a cash grab or a shill for big oil. Obviously they didn't just port the Steam version to PS4 (because they already did that) and they are still the passionate writers and designers that they were back in '97, although now my interpretation of Sakaguchi's role was as a grounding presence in the face of the pie-sky-ambition of galaxy-brained Nomura and the-blitzball-is-a-bomb Nojima. 7R would have benefitted from being reined in, especially in its finale.

FF7R is pretty and there are some good scenes peppered among the bad, but ultimately the game failed to have the intended impact on me. I didn't like the way Aeris and Tifa were characterized (Tifa always seems in over her head, needing the boys to explain what's going on, with a scared, dupeful expression on her face; Aeris is certainly improved from Pure Angel Compilation Aerith but she is now instead the harem anime version of Amélie) but I'll chalk that up to me projecting my own ideals onto the OG dialogue and not any misinterpretation of them by their own creators (to assert the latter would be patently stupid.... tempting as it is).

Zack's name in the subtitles is a very strange gripe imo, in as far as the game being hostile to new players -- there are so many other examples of this. And, as with any of those kinds of gripes, the ultimate balm for that hurt is just to admit that this game is straight-up hostile towards new players, by design.

inb4 the "I started with AC" folx. For the way 7R ends, it's probably the least viable starting entry of the Compilation.

 

[Odysseus]

So I ran a bit of a litmus test regarding the remake. I was curious, since a lot of the "big picture" issues people have at least partly stem from how ridiculously familiar we are with the original and compilation, what would a more casual fan think of this? I got my coworker to play it, who is only passing by familiar with the original because of some of the characters. After he was done I asked him what he thought of the whispers and some of the confusing plot stuff. He was just like "oh yeah, that was a cool final boss." He seemed like he really enjoyed the game.

I know this proves absolutely nothing, since everyone has different experiences, but I think you're letting your own over familiarity with ff7 color your judgment of how "newcomer friendly" the game is.

 

[Theozilla]

Also as shown in the interview thread, Nomura appears to being far more the “reigning in” factor for the Remake than being the pie-in-the-sky ambition/galaxy brain role for the Remake, Kitase seems to be the one pushing for the bigger changes not Nomura.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I've always maintained that as long as something is enjoyable, engrossing and entertaining, that's the only "entry friendliness" a work needs to be. The "work" necessary to get up to speed won't seem like work if one is trying to bring themselves up to speed to satiate their hunger for more story. It should ultimately be an exercise of entertainment.

The Compilation is a paradoxical overarching series of works that are simultaneously alive and dead. The influence of the Compilation is strongly felt to this day, while only a third of its entries can be easily consumed. None of its games are ported or even in existence on current gen systems. In fact they're not even on the last generation of systems. The most readily available works are not games at all but short stories and of course Square's most successful CGI animated film. Most of the guide books have remained untranslated save for the work done by fans, and let's not forget the mobile and online entries that would have faded into the void if not for the efforts of dedicated fans.

It's because of this reason that the Compilation holds a strange allure and mysticism among a lot fans, especially younger fans who never got to experience the games contemporarily. These games don't exist in the present. Yet they're wildly and continually referenced, discoursed and merchandised. They're an esoteric fandom text from a primordial era of Square that's bizarre, choppy and of variable quality. Yet it endures and sustains itself. Any other media company or franchise would have left it behind and just "rebooted" the whole brand ala Marvel/Disney or Warner Bros/DC.

But for some strange, and obviously personal reason, they've resisted that strategy. Given how franchises today work to reboot every few years like clock work to capitalize on being entry-level and absorbing the maximum number of fans, the Remake is a clear aberration of the IP franchise model. But I'm almost certain that's by design. Kingdom Hearts existed in that same span of time the Compilation did and the creators there made sure to neatly release several collections of every relevant work on each system to lead up to KH3.

No such collection was done for the Remake of FFVII. Maybe we'll get one later on (which has been repeated since 2009) but until then they clearly feel content letting the Remake speak for itself and be it's own advertisement for jumping on board this train to who-knows-where. It clearly needs no help and the mystery is simply part of the fun. They don't want it to be neatly laid out. And if some new fan wants to take the plunge to dive even deeper, they want that fan to drown in that sea of FFVII apocrypha

 

[looneymoon]

My initial read on FF7R is that it's too up its own ass, not necessarily that it's a cash grab or a shill for big oil.

Barret in Advent Children would say otherwise

 

[Makoeyes987]

Barret being on the wrong side of the energy debate is sadly not a new development.

At least when presented with new evidence... He's able to admit when he's wrong.

 

[looneymoon]

The real conflict of the 2020 FF7 Requel - Geostigma spreading at the Gold Saucer

 

[KindOfBlue]

I like to think the ending of the Remake gives SE the opportunity to salvage some of the best ideas of the Compilation and either rework or remove the worst parts (though if Genesis shows up I’ll happily put my own foot in my mouth). I’m still convinced that Remake won’t veer so far from the OG that it’s unrecognizable, but just enough to justify itself as an unknown journey. If they manage to defeat Sephiroth once and for all, I wouldn’t mind a post-game Cloud and Tifa living together, running their businesses and taking care of Marlene and Denzel, only now without the burden of the three remnants (who apparently we’ve already defeated) or geostigma. Speaking of which...

The real conflict of the 2020 FF7 Requel - Geostigma spreading at the Gold Saucer

Get ready for Gondola Ride: Socially Distanced Edition