looneymoon
they/them
- AKA
- Rishi
SPOILERS FFVII Remake Open Spoiler Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Lex
- Start date
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
Naw. They're making out with each other. 
"We... Will never be a memory."
"We... Will never be a memory."
Cat on Mars
Actually not a cat
I wasn't expecting selfcest jokes but I'm not disappointed.Naw. They're making out with each other.
"We... Will never be a memory."
Speaking about incest. You guys, did you know that I'm making a full comic about Sephiroth and his alien mom, right?
Just checking.
Odysseus
Ninja Potato
- AKA
- Ody
You added this later so I didn't see it.
I was trying to answer your issue about how characters can "defy destiny" since that doesn't really make sense under the common English understanding of the word "destiny." In the remake, destiny is predetermined by the planet, but that's different from destiny being predetermined in general. Think of the Planet as an individual with its own goals. Like, let's say you want to drive to the store to buy some eggs. You can already picture more or less the entire process before it even happens, so in a sense the process is predetermined. What if you get hit by a truck on the way to the store though? Then the sequence is broken, because you're either dead or have a lot more to worry about than eggs now. So, the entire course of history is the Planet's trip for eggs, and Sephiroth is the truck. Now that he's manipulated the party into killing the whispers, anything can happen. The Planet's plans are fucked, destiny has been defied.
How Sephiroth himself is able to act outside this plan is another can of worms to dig into, and we don't really have all the necessary information for that one, but at the very least he's always been depicted as being outside the natural order of things. Whether that be his alien heritage, his ability to not be absorbed by the planet, his black lifestream... it's all a consistent part of his character.
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The Twilight Mexican
Ex-SeeD-ingly good
- AKA
- TresDias
When fate is anthropomorphized, we're supposed to understand that destiny as a concept was only ever a conscious orchestration or tweaking on someone's part to begin with. And usually only in terms of the broad strokes rather than the most minute details.
Of course, it's also entirely doable to think of fate in the sense described above as a colloquialism for such manipulations, with there being a true, immutable concept of fate laying beyond whatever finite (even if divine) orchestrator is involved closer to the ground level.
Obviously authors can do whatever they want, but the way it generally turns out when they keep going back to tweak things (e.g. Stephen King, J.K. Rowling, George Lucas, etc.) is they do it in a way that doesn't blend well or that fans at the very least are dissatisfied with.
I mean, this very discussion is a great example of how well such things tend to be received. XD And ironically, you're decrying what the original storytellers did upon revisiting this work while arguing from the position that storytellers should revisit their past work more. =P
Stiggie said:
It explicitly doesn't, though. Nomura said so before VIIR was released, that it's a separate universe anyway.
Stiggie said:
It does, though, in those universes/timelines where the Whispers' destruction didn't affect that event. This would include both the timeline of the original game and possibly the one we spend most of VIIR in. The space where Zack survives appears to be a third timeline/universe, with an alternate Stamp and an alive Zack.
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
It's just really hard to care about an event when you know there are infinite versions of it with infinite different outcomes, and none of them is the definitive one. The grief at Zack's death and the joy at his survival cancel each other out. For me, at least. It really feels as if the game creators themselves are saying "Aw, don't be sad - look, he's still alive over here." So it feels as if nothing's at stake.
The Twilight Mexican
Ex-SeeD-ingly good
- AKA
- TresDias
Well, in this particular case, it seems we only witnessed a different outcome because "fate" was overcome with weapons and magic.
Otherwise, presumably there wouldn't be infinite outcomes.I'm sorry that's how it went for you. =( I legitimately had an audible jawdrop when I realized what I was seeing.
Odysseus
Ninja Potato
- AKA
- Ody
W- we- were you holding your head over a table or something?
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
If it turns out that somehow defeating the Whispers kept Zack alive or brought him back, and that eventually the party will realise Zack must die if Sephiroth is to be defeated.... I guess that would be quite poignant.
looneymoon
they/them
- AKA
- Rishi
Odysseus
Ninja Potato
- AKA
- Ody
So Homestuck^2 thenIt's Homestuck, but without the wit or irony
looneymoon
they/them
- AKA
- Rishi
Shademp
420
Watching Zack survive was a painful experience, particularly the first time. I felt the dignity leave the Remake and instead I was presented with sugar-coated wish-fulfillment that made my ears deaf with the screams of a million fanboys and fangirls who have wanted to see this version of events for so many years. Countless AU fanfics manifested in front of my eyes and the Remake looked like a pandering mess. I felt second-hand grossness on behalf of Remake...and then the game descends even further into madness by showing a scene where Biggs survives. Props to Remake for going lower even when I thought it wouldn't.
FFVII has an on-and-off relationship with its depiction of the finality of death and the emotions therein. Aerith dies but she becomes such a powerful agent afterwards that she might as well be a Force ghost from Star Wars (particularly so in Advent Children). Zack dies dramatically in Crisis Core but the game's pop-song ending injects unreasonable amounts of happiness into it. Angeal stayed surprisingly dead and even his likeness in the final Angeal copies, Lazard and the creature who carried Aerith's final letter, are allowed to die in solemn quiet. But then the extended FFVII universe also likes to revive people who were dead or presumed dead: Tseng, Rufus, Don Corneo, Sephiroth, Jenova, Hojo...and now with FFVIIR, Zack and Biggs.
Remake may try the poignant thing of Zack and Biggs ultimately having to die anyway, and they will try to make us believe Aerith might survive and then she'll die anyway. Some scales might then balance back towards the finality of death, but we'll still have the overall problem plaguing FFVII lore as a whole: Its theme of loss isn't so much a core theme as it is a general guideline...and very little forces FFVII to follow it.
FFVII has an on-and-off relationship with its depiction of the finality of death and the emotions therein. Aerith dies but she becomes such a powerful agent afterwards that she might as well be a Force ghost from Star Wars (particularly so in Advent Children). Zack dies dramatically in Crisis Core but the game's pop-song ending injects unreasonable amounts of happiness into it. Angeal stayed surprisingly dead and even his likeness in the final Angeal copies, Lazard and the creature who carried Aerith's final letter, are allowed to die in solemn quiet. But then the extended FFVII universe also likes to revive people who were dead or presumed dead: Tseng, Rufus, Don Corneo, Sephiroth, Jenova, Hojo...and now with FFVIIR, Zack and Biggs.
Remake may try the poignant thing of Zack and Biggs ultimately having to die anyway, and they will try to make us believe Aerith might survive and then she'll die anyway. Some scales might then balance back towards the finality of death, but we'll still have the overall problem plaguing FFVII lore as a whole: Its theme of loss isn't so much a core theme as it is a general guideline...and very little forces FFVII to follow it.
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
The fact that Aerith and Zack's deaths are seen as so sacrosanct is precisely the reason they're being toyed with now. If they left them alone, that's a lion's share of "FFVII" being left safely frozen in materia. The protection of what came before in terms of the world returning to normal, is a "stake" for the story, in a twisted sense of the narrative. It's a paradoxical challenge being rubbed right in our faces. If their intent is to tell a dynamic story that's meant to go beyond the borders of what came before, with a reset of expectations for the audience... They have to show willingness to challenge their own performative limits, and the limits of the player.
Does that mean they must ultimately completely undo what they've done thematically with their story/characters in that regard? No, of course not, and I don't think that's what they plan to do, either. But their willingness to challenge just how far FFVII is willing to stay FFVII makes it that much more interesting and opens the door to at least, explore something new and different with the characters and the themes presented thus far. They're in essence, unwilling actors in a repeat of their previous adventure, half-aware of how things may go or were "meant" to go. That can dive deep into some interesting interactions and feelings, and some places that some might not wish to go. However, if you're gonna open pandora's box, that's sorta what happens. At the very least, they can tease and examine these things without ultimately shattering what came before. That's the whole point of this. And Zack being paradoxically present for us yet still deceased in Cloud's past and present, can offer up an interesting collision between illusion, reality, and the wish for a future that ultimately cannot exist. There's plenty that can be done, it's just a matter of if the writer's are going to actually do it, or just make it some fake and escapist Hallmark happy ending that would be an ultimate betrayal of what those deaths were meant to represent. I really don't see them doing that, and I hope to ultimately be proven right.
...Just like I was with the Silver-Haired Rainbow Whispers.
Does that mean they must ultimately completely undo what they've done thematically with their story/characters in that regard? No, of course not, and I don't think that's what they plan to do, either. But their willingness to challenge just how far FFVII is willing to stay FFVII makes it that much more interesting and opens the door to at least, explore something new and different with the characters and the themes presented thus far. They're in essence, unwilling actors in a repeat of their previous adventure, half-aware of how things may go or were "meant" to go. That can dive deep into some interesting interactions and feelings, and some places that some might not wish to go. However, if you're gonna open pandora's box, that's sorta what happens. At the very least, they can tease and examine these things without ultimately shattering what came before. That's the whole point of this. And Zack being paradoxically present for us yet still deceased in Cloud's past and present, can offer up an interesting collision between illusion, reality, and the wish for a future that ultimately cannot exist. There's plenty that can be done, it's just a matter of if the writer's are going to actually do it, or just make it some fake and escapist Hallmark happy ending that would be an ultimate betrayal of what those deaths were meant to represent. I really don't see them doing that, and I hope to ultimately be proven right.
...Just like I was with the Silver-Haired Rainbow Whispers.
crazyrabbits23
yes.
- AKA
- Alex
I was fairly indifferent with the scene. I didn't play Crisis Core (never owned a PSP), and thus my familiarity with the character was due to pop-cultural osmosis/the game's reception increasing over the years.
Honestly, my biggest problem with the scene (and a few other moments in the game) rely on the viewer's slavish familiarity with the Compilation. Kyrie, the second Avalanche unit, Zack, AC... when you look at reactions to the scene online, it tends to fall into one of two categories:
1) The viewer who knows who Zack is and is losing their shit (OMGWTFITSZACKOHCHRISTHOWISHEALIVEWTFWTFZACK), or
2) The viewer who has no idea who the character is ("Who is this guy, what's his role, and why's he carrying Cloud's sword?")
The scene does a weak job of telegraphing who Zack is or what his purpose is for new players. They drop a couple breadcrumbs early on in the game (the dream/fragmented memory of him before the church scene) then leave it completely vacant until the cutscene drops him in with no warning. You either already knew who he was implicitly, or you were left scratching your head at why this character (who may or may not be in an alt timeline) is dressed sort-of-the-same as the protagonist and is dragging him around while making references about his own improbable survival. It's a game that's so slavish to its continuity (not necessarily a bad thing) that it can leave players who aren't familiar with the EU out in the cold.
But then again, that plays into my whole indifference with the ending. Not with the way the Whispers are portrayed or their presence seemingly changing the timeline, but the whole "quick, we've got five minutes to wrap this up - package everything in a neat little bow while changing as much as we can" vibe got old quick.
Clement Rage
Pro Adventurer
They can't telegraph it because otherwise it spoils the story for newcomers.
We don't really know what's up with Zack yet. If he's back for good for free with no consequences, then I won't like it, but I'm still waiting to see what happens.
I think that's fandom entitlement more than anything else.
We don't really know what's up with Zack yet. If he's back for good for free with no consequences, then I won't like it, but I'm still waiting to see what happens.
I think that's fandom entitlement more than anything else.
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
I mean, to be honest, it's not exactly the responsibility of creators to give fans what they want. They owe fans nothing. On the other hand, if you completely ignore what the fans want, you risk losing your source of income.
crazyrabbits23
yes.
- AKA
- Alex
It's a scene that exists in a vacuum, that occurs at a high-stakes moment in the narrative (the final confrontation between the heroes and the villain in the game) and is introduced with no fanfare, no context and no resolution. It relies on your understanding of another tie-in work to make any sense - I mean, I understand who the character is, what the significance of this location is and can posit a few theories about whether this is an alt timeline or not, but it exists independently of the main narrative and requires you to have an "All There in The Manual" mentality.
You don't have to spoil who Zack is or what he did, but you need some kind of context that better explains who this guy is, why he's here and what he's doing. If I didn't know any better, I'd say him saying, "Cloud, did you see that?" while motioning to a rock might be evidence of an undiagnosed mental illness/trauma from the preceding fight, not a heroic display of bravado he's making towards his semi-comatose friend/soldier.
Claymore
3x3 Eyes
Got to echo what Clement states. There was no way to expand upon that scene without spoiling literally the main crux of the game. And we also need to remember that this is only the first part - not everything introduced is going to be resolved at this point in time. He's a mystery, that's all you need to know for now, and it's working, as it's generated a lot of discussion to newcomers concerning who he is, what his relationship to Cloud is, and the story going forward.
Sephiroth Crescent
Way Ahead of the Plot
So, what if it was meteorfall the event which triggers the Whispers and forces them to make the Whisper barrier around Midgar?
Or, what if the entire remake happens within Holy's flash at the time of meteorfall? (I think I read somebody here pointing to that as a possibility)
Or something
and something-something...
Theory-making machine goes brrr!
Or, what if the entire remake happens within Holy's flash at the time of meteorfall? (I think I read somebody here pointing to that as a possibility)
Or something
and something-something...Theory-making machine goes brrr!
cold_spirit
he/him
- AKA
- Alex T
I've seen this sentiment a few times and it's not sitting right with me. I hate to be the guy that goes "well actually" because I know you're aware of the issues I'm about to bring up, but...
Quick reality check: the OG was the most expensive game ever for it's time, with over half of its costs dedicated to marketing. There was a collaboration with Coca-Cola after the OG's release, a company that leads the world in plastic pollution. There's this sexist job ad featuring Tifa, and don't get me started on how capitalism and sexism are linked.
The OG was created in a capitalistic economy for hordes of consumers. To imply that inciting Twitter debates is against the spirit of FF7 is giving way too much credit to the corporations involved with the creation of the OG in '97. Capitalism was just as vile and prevalent in the 90's as it is today.
I understand the OG has anti-capitalism and pro-environmental themes and I do believe the core developers are genuine in their writing. But if I'm being truly critical and real with myself, I'd say the OG only gives lip service to those issues. I am not aware of any initiatives by Square to actually practice what it preaches.
I feel like we're romanticizing the creation of the OG a bit too much. It is not innocent and naive. The 90's were not innocent and naive. It may seem that way because a lot of us grew up in that time period, but make no mistake, the OG is only possible because of rampant capitalism, and it definitely contributes to the system that birthed it. In fact, the OG is arguably Square's biggest contribution to modern capitalism.
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LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
Any work of art with a message needs to surf the capitalism system if it is going to reach its audience. That's just how we've arranged things. Even if you were the purest-of-pure auteur indie game makers and you found yourself with a palpable hit thanks to word-of-mouth promotion alone, you would inevitably succumb to the pressure to monetise your hot product, because nearly everybdy dreams of financial security and the freedom it brings.
cold_spirit
he/him
- AKA
- Alex T
I'm sorry, nothing that I wrote excuses Remake for featuring writing that doesn't click with some people. I guess I just wanted an excuse to write down some thoughts that had been in my brain since Remake's collaboration with Butterfinger lol.
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