SPOILERS FFVII Remake Open Spoiler Discussion Thread

[Ite]

I wasn't just referring to the time travel plot, I was referring to the entirety of the Remake's premise.

And I definitely wouldn't say FFVII's fantasy setting is so hard that it can't fit time travel. That's simply not true at all. If FFIX, which basically transplants the entirety of FFVII's fantastical world building, can fit time travel into it's universe, then why would VII be incapable of it? They work on the same fundamental world building rules of spirit energy and memories, which can warp space and open up paths to the future and past. That's not really a hard and fast barrier that can't be crossed within their world. There are no rules being broken and it certainly doesn't contradict itself. It's just new.

Unlike FFI or FFVIII (remind me of the tt in IX?) tt is not endemic to FFVII's story, and it is resultantly incohesive. Exploring those themes and ideas comes at the expense of other themes and ideas that are endemic to FFVII's story, and are the things I think a remake should focus on. Moreover, while the fact that there is magic could justify any number of magical plot elements, I wouldn't say that it's best for the story to throw them in. FFVII already has aliens and an evil Empire and lifestream and magical ancient people and talking beastfolk and killer robots and a doomsday meteor. The OG (and the non-fuckery parts of the Remake) miraculously struck this balance where nothing seemed out of place. Throwing in tt is one juggling ball too many. 7R ends up as less than the sum of its parts.

 

[Odysseus]

We still don't actually know if time travel is involved anyway.

 

[Makoeyes987]

The memories of Gaia and Terra that make up Memoria created a path to the very past, leading to the genesis of everything in the Crystal World where the original Crystal of existence resides. Tracing those memories further and further back, which were spawned through the Iifa Tree expelling all that mist thanks to Kuja nuking Terra, allowed Memoria to be created and Kuja to essentially read his way all the way back in time. Because memories are all interconnected and if you follow them all back... You can get to the source of everything.

My only point was that it easily fits and is possible. That's not to say that everything that's possible should be done, but I wouldn't say that it's somehow breaking FFVII's rules of fantasy, because it doesn't. How it manages to juggle it all remains to be seen.

We still don't actually know if time travel is involved anyway.

The ghosts of Silver-Haired Boy Bands of Future's Past try to beat the shit out of Cloud and the others. There's some time travel shenanigans goin' on here.

 

[ForceStealer]

But it's the explanation that makes the earlier nonsense scenes make the most sense/enjoyable. (i.e. the stuff in Sector 8 is future!Sephiroth trying to delay Cloud so he doesn't meet Aerith, and the Whispers are pestering her to keep her there to make sure that still happens)

 

[Ite]

We still don't actually know if time travel is involved anyway.

The first and most obvious side quest gives you the Assess materia and tasks you with scanning monsters. Ergo the monster descriptions are part of the intended text (I use text in the academic sense). The monster descriptions explicitly say that the whispers came back from the future, and the cutscene shows your victory reverberates into the past — if it doesn’t end up saving Zack, it at the very least provided a background explosion.

 

[Odysseus]

Oh right, forgot about that. Carry onnnn.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I'll never forget them. I was one of the few that stated those three tri-colored ghosts had more in line with the silver-haired men, than future ghosts of Cloud, Barret and Tifa.

And I was vindicated

The left-handed swordsmanship, one-handed sword, and wild frenzied attack movements reminded me of Kadaj, along with Mr. Pilebunker Fist reminding me of Loz. If there's one thing I know, it's AC, after years and years of watching it. xD

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

You can't have both fate and free will, they are mutually exclusive. Unless you define fate as merely a range of possibilities, any of which can be chosen, and which in turn create a further branching tree of options. But as far as I'm concerned, that's not fate.

According to the Oxford Learner's dictionary (because the OED is behind a paywall)
Destiny: "what happens to someone or what will happen to them in the future, especially things that they cannot change or avoid"
If you can change or avoid it, de facto it's not your destiny

If Cloud and Co are able to fight fate and achieve free will, then the mere fact that they can choose the option to fight fate means that they always had free will and there is no fate.

 

[Odysseus]

I'll never forget them. I was one of the few that stated those three tri-colored ghosts had more in line with the silver-haired men, than future ghosts of Cloud, Barret and Tifa.

And I was vindicated

The left-handed swordsmanship, one-handed sword, and wild frenzied attack movements reminded me of Kadaj, along with Mr. Pilebunker Fist reminding me of Loz. If there's one thing I know, it's AC, after years and years of watching it. xD

You were a prophet, and they did not believe you.

The fact we literally kill advent children does kinda imply the plot is going in a different direction doesn't it?

 

[Makoeyes987]

You were a prophet, and they did not believe you.

The fact we literally kill advent children does kinda imply the plot is going in a different direction doesn't it?

Did we though?

What if beating the shit out of those three Whispers in FFVII weakened them so badly, that it led to them all being targeted and corrupted by Sephiroth 3 years later so that he could stamp his will onto them, all leading them to becoming his remnants?

....

That's the joy of non-linear causality. What seems like the future to us, could really be the past to them.

 

[Cat on Mars]

@LicoriceAllsorts
Let's compare dictionaries!

Cambridge Academic Content Dictionary:
destiny
noun
UK /ˈdes.tɪ.ni/ US /ˈdes.tɪ.ni/

C1 [ C ]
the things that will happen in the future:

• The destiny of our nation depends on this vote!
• She felt that her destiny had been shaped by her gender.
• People want to control/determine/take charge of their own destinies.

C1 [ U ]
the force that some people think controls what happens in the future, and is outside human control:

• You can't fight destiny.
• He is a tragic victim of destiny.

It seems like destiny can mean that something will happen... or maybe not.
Back to square lol one with this.

 

[Odysseus]

Did we though?

What if beating the shit out of those three Whispers in FFVII weakened them so badly, that it led to them all being targeted and corrupted by Sephiroth 3 years later so that he could stamp his will onto them, all leading them to becoming his remnants?

....

That's the joy of non-linear causality. What seems like the future to us, could really be the past to them.

...

that he could stamp his will onto them

.......

stamp

GUYS I FIGURED IT OUT

 

[Ite]

This is what I mean when I say tt, fate and destiny are one juggling ball too many. A story like this deserves it's own story, and trying to have it while FF7 is going on at the same time is.... well, it's not to my taste.

 

[Cat on Mars]

Doraemon has the best time travel stories, change my mind.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Cloud and Co aren't trying to shape the things that will happen in the future, but alter things that happened in the past, although thanks to the Moebius strip which is the form time takes in their world, that past happens right now to lie ahead of them in time.

If destiny is nothing more than a set of probabilities, then I guess free will and fate are not incompatible, but in that case, why would Cloud and Co need to fight the embodiments of fate in order to gain a freedom of action that they already have?

 

[Odysseus]

Think about the whispers and what their role is. They aren't literally the embodiment of the concept of fate, they're agents of the planet that ensure the planet's own desired outcome is reached (that being, the events of the original game.) They guided the character towards that outcome, but ultimately the characters defeated them because of the outside intervention of Sephiroth. It's not a predetermined outcome, it's one achieved through specific manipulation. It's not "destiny" in general, it's the destiny the planet chose for itself.

 

[KindOfBlue]

why would Cloud and Co need to fight the embodiments of fate in order to gain a freedom of action that they already have?

Honestly, I think Sephiroth was just baiting the party into giving him what he wanted

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

A fight?
We're back to Ite's version, which I infinitely prefer.
We really shouldn't be using the same word both for the future which we create through our own choices and actions, and for the pre-determined future which is outside our control.

 

[Odysseus]

Well, if Sephiroth was originally doomed to failure, it'd only make sense he would want to change that. Then, the Sephiroth of the final battle seemed to have his own mystery agenda.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

So how, by defeating the Whispers, have Cloud and Co increased Sephiroth's chances of winning this time around? They weren't around last time when Cloud and his party defeated Sephiroth. Cloud and Co don't need them in order to win.

I mean, it can only be because this time around someone will somehow sense or remember that bad thing Y will happen if they do X, so they don't do X, they do Z instead - and Z is what Sephiroth needs them to do, or at least he needs them not to do X.

 

[Odysseus]

So how, by defeating the Whispers, have Cloud and Co increased Sephiroth's chances of winning this time around? They weren't around last time when Cloud and his party defeated Sephiroth. Cloud and Co don't need them in order to win.

I mean, it can only be because this time around someone will somehow sense or remember that bad thing Y will happen if they do X, so they don't do X, they do Z instead - and Z is what Sephiroth needs them to do, or at least he needs them not to do X.

I dunno if you saw my first post, but while the whispers aren't involved in the original plot, that's the "destiny" they were trying to keep intact. Now that they're gone the original series of events might not happen, which drastically improves Sephiroth's odds. Obviously he's gonna lose, because that's how this works, but things might get much worse than they did before. We'll have to wait and see to really know where that's going though.

 

[kathy202]

Obviously he's gonna lose

Actually, what if he doesn't? He "becomes one with the planet"... And then what? Everyone dies or something? I never quite understood his motives even in the OG.

 

[ForceStealer]

He was going to gain control of the Lifestream and remake life as he saw fit. "A 'god' to rule over every soul."

When that failed he was going to ram this planet into some other one so he could do the same thing there.

 

[Jairus]

Just a little something made, inspired by the complex, convoluted nuttiness of FF7 and FF7R's overall storyline:




I have no idea where the remake series is going to go, but it'll be an interesting ride, if nothing else.

 

[Clement Rage]

Doraemon has the best time travel stories, change my mind.

Legacy of Kain. I will not be moved on this.

We're all talking very definitively, but we really still have to wait for reveals on part 2. What I think of the Whispers/Zack will depend on what happens next. In terms of themes, we don't have the whole story yet, imagine trying to work out what was up with Cloud before the revelations on Disc 2.

For the record, I think Barret's death did have a storytelling purpose, in raising the stakes. It establishes that Sephiroth can and will kill party members if he feels like it, so not to get complacent...and next time, you won't have Whispers to save you.