SPOILERS FFVII Remake Open Spoiler Discussion Thread

looneymoon

they/them
AKA
Rishi
Agree with @cold_spirit . My point was that it's deflating the story - the issues that actually matter are no longer the focal point, and tossed aside in favour of....... stuff that doesn't really make sense, in order to cause an explosion twitter. The game is intentionally metatextual, but my argument was that the way meta-text functions is incongruous with what the actual text has to say (and others have made points how that applies to things if we look outside the corporatism theme here).

edit: I'd also disagree that the OG pays lip service to these ideas, but I understand what you're saying.

If we really wanted to get super into it, there is probably some sort of environmental and/or labour cost within the development cycle of any AAA vidya in general, but that wasn't really what I was trying to get at :monster:seriously tho, how much does Square pay? I wanna pitch them that puppet idea, the merch potential ALONE...

At the end of it, if the focus of this destiny stuff swerves the focus to what makes the story one worth retelling... I can imagine how that could maybe work, if I completely forget what their writing is like. Now that the writers have given a heads up on this "new story," and looking at their more recent body of work... I think there's enough to say that they've already fucked up.
 
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Obsidian Fire

Ahk Morn!
AKA
The Engineer
Someone was mentioning on Discord how if you look at the order the last few Compilation games came out, there's an uptick in "destiny" as a theme.

Namely, you get something like this...

DoC: (a) It's Vincent's "destiny" (thematically) to confront Omega as the vessel of Chaos. The Cetra Tablets in DoC link the two WEAPONs together at least and both are only supposed to show up at an "end" of the Lifstream's time in... it's physical location.
(b) DoC ends with Genesis waking up and flying away to do... something... we never figure out what...

CC: (a) Genesis is... obsessed... with living out/causing the story in Loveless to play out. More so after he falls in the Lifestream in Modeoheim. His "salvation" is directly linked to him accepting that he's not the one playing the role of the Hero from Loveless, but that of the Prisoner. The one playing the role of the Hero is linked to Zack here...

And then Nomura has said how he had the idea that would become Remake not long after working on Crisis Core. And that he thought of it as the Culmination of the Compilation of FFVII. And now we have a Remake where Destiny really is something the cast thinks they can go stop/kill...

Granted... a lot of that stuff isn't the things a lot of people liked about the compilation... but it was edging its way into it. So... maybe it's not as surprising it could be... from the creator's perspective, we could have been heading for this theme for a lot longer than we thought.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
The ultimate critique here I think, is if the body of work (i.e. the game) is an expression of genuine creative passion or merely a deliberated corporate and profit-driven exercise of minimalist effort. People look for that core of authenticity and go from there, not just in terms of it's themes, but the actual expression of the final product.

I don't think anyone is expecting a workers revolutionary manifesto in the shape of a video game to sail out of a Japanese corporate video game company in 2020. If they are, then they're highly mistaken and expecting blood from a stone. I think the real thing players are looking for, is an authenticity of experience, and something beyond a rote or derivative work/product. An interesting, challenging and engrossing experience that gets them stimulated and thinking among themselves. It's what separates memorable, popular and acclaimed games from derivative AAA titles that last a year before they're traded out for the next.

The FFVII of today certainly doesn't turn a blind eye to the harsh realities of it's world. I don't believe FFVII-R's surreal, and lofty fantasy themes regarding it's own meta-plot, are necessarily to the exclusion of it's more poignant and real-world relevant topics. Is it a lot to juggle? Sure, but that's never stopped FFVII before with it's wacky, whimsical RPG antics in 1997, and never stopped any other FF since. We're confronted with the same conflict of humanity vs. nature, the on-the-nose critique of depleting natural resources, the underclass struggle against what's essentially a corporate fascist world ruling regime, and the search of true identity within the psychological maze of personal trauma. Add to that the intentional disinformation and public smearing that the main characters have to endure, the tragedy of losing it all to forces far greater than the individual, all while weighing doing immediate good for the people hurt by their fighting versus staying the course to achieve their larger goals. Oh, and revenge. When you look at how the Remake handles the characters it brings to life amongst all these elements, you can plainly see this is not the work of a phoned-in project looking to cash in on itself. They reflect a wider humanity and character than we've seen before, and it's certainly more than what we had to work with in the comparable section of the game. Barret's character has been given the respect and wholeness that could only be interpreted before. Cloud's ego is far more fleshed out with the cracks of his cool persona highlighted in humorous and interesting ways. Aerith's vibrancy, Tifa's emotions and friendship, and the wider look at how they all interact are features that highlight the most of what FFVII is, regardless of what some magical fairy show we take Chapter 18 to be. That's all still going to be present, and to somehow think it won't ignores the reality of game development and the writing behind it in the first place. This was ultimately all intentional. How much it all fits together in the Remake is something that will only be apparent once we see the characters go through more and more of this plot, so we can do a relative comparison to actually see what the work itself communicates. There's still so much of FFVII that is left to cover, and trying to gauge how much of the Remake will still be in line with itself when we've only barely scratched the surface of it's coverage, is like astrology at this point.
 
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Ite

Save your valediction (she/her)
AKA
Ite
The ultimate critique here I think, is if the body of work (i.e. the game) is an expression of genuine creative passion or merely a deliberated corporate and profit-driven exercise of minimalist effort. People look for that core of authenticity and go from there, not just in terms of it's themes, but the actual expression of the final product.

I don't think anyone is expecting a workers revolutionary manifesto in the shape of a video game to sail out of a Japanese corporate video game company in 2020. If they are, then they're highly mistaken and expecting blood from a stone. I think the real thing players are looking for, is an authenticity of experience, and something beyond a rote or derivative work/product. An interesting, challenging and engrossing experience that gets them stimulated and thinking among themselves. It's what separates memorable, popular and acclaimed games from derivative AAA titles that last a year before they're traded out for the next.

The FFVII of today certainly doesn't turn a blind eye to the harsh realities of it's world. I don't believe FFVII-R's surreal, and lofty fantasy themes regarding it's own meta-plot, are necessarily to the exclusion of it's more poignant and real-world relevant topics. Is it a lot to juggle? Sure, but that's never stopped FFVII before with it's wacky, whimsical RPG antics in 1997, and never stopped any other FF since. We're confronted with the same conflict of humanity vs. nature, the on-the-nose critique of depleting natural resources, the underclass struggle against what's essentially a corporate fascist world ruling regime, and the search of true identity within the psychological maze of personal trauma. Add to that the intentional disinformation and public smearing that the main characters have to endure, the tragedy of losing it all to forces far greater than the individual, all while weighing doing immediate good for the people hurt by their fighting versus staying the course to achieve their larger goals. Oh, and revenge. When you look at how the Remake handles the characters it brings to life amongst all these elements, you can plainly see this is not the work of a phoned-in project looking to cash in on itself. They reflect a wider humanity and character than we've seen before, and it's certainly more than what we had to work with in the comparable section of the game. Barret's character has been given the respect and wholeness that could only be interpreted before. Cloud's ego is far more fleshed out with the cracks of his cool persona highlighted in humorous and interesting ways. Aerith's vibrancy, Tifa's emotions and friendship, and the wider look at how they all interact are features that highlight the most of what FFVII is, regardless of what some magical fairy show we take Chapter 18 to be. That's all still going to be present, and to somehow think it won't ignores the reality of game development and the writing behind it in the first place. This was ultimately all intentional. How much it all fits together in the Remake is something that will only be apparent once we see the characters go through more and more of this plot, so we can do a relative comparison to actually see what the work itself communicates. There's still so much of FFVII that is left to cover, and trying to gauge how much of the Remake will still be in line with itself when we've only barely scratched the surface of it's coverage, is like astrology at this point.

Well said.

My initial read on FF7R is that it's too up its own ass, not necessarily that it's a cash grab or a shill for big oil. Obviously they didn't just port the Steam version to PS4 (because they already did that) and they are still the passionate writers and designers that they were back in '97, although now my interpretation of Sakaguchi's role was as a grounding presence in the face of the pie-sky-ambition of galaxy-brained Nomura and the-blitzball-is-a-bomb Nojima. 7R would have benefitted from being reined in, especially in its finale.

FF7R is pretty and there are some good scenes peppered among the bad, but ultimately the game failed to have the intended impact on me. I didn't like the way Aeris and Tifa were characterized (Tifa always seems in over her head, needing the boys to explain what's going on, with a scared, dupeful expression on her face; Aeris is certainly improved from Pure Angel Compilation Aerith but she is now instead the harem anime version of Amélie) but I'll chalk that up to me projecting my own ideals onto the OG dialogue and not any misinterpretation of them by their own creators (to assert the latter would be patently stupid.... tempting as it is).

Zack's name in the subtitles is a very strange gripe imo, in as far as the game being hostile to new players -- there are so many other examples of this. And, as with any of those kinds of gripes, the ultimate balm for that hurt is just to admit that this game is straight-up hostile towards new players, by design.

inb4 the "I started with AC" folx. For the way 7R ends, it's probably the least viable starting entry of the Compilation.
 

Odysseus

Ninja Potato
AKA
Ody
So I ran a bit of a litmus test regarding the remake. I was curious, since a lot of the "big picture" issues people have at least partly stem from how ridiculously familiar we are with the original and compilation, what would a more casual fan think of this? I got my coworker to play it, who is only passing by familiar with the original because of some of the characters. After he was done I asked him what he thought of the whispers and some of the confusing plot stuff. He was just like "oh yeah, that was a cool final boss." He seemed like he really enjoyed the game.

I know this proves absolutely nothing, since everyone has different experiences, but I think you're letting your own over familiarity with ff7 color your judgment of how "newcomer friendly" the game is.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
I've always maintained that as long as something is enjoyable, engrossing and entertaining, that's the only "entry friendliness" a work needs to be. The "work" necessary to get up to speed won't seem like work if one is trying to bring themselves up to speed to satiate their hunger for more story. It should ultimately be an exercise of entertainment.

The Compilation is a paradoxical overarching series of works that are simultaneously alive and dead. The influence of the Compilation is strongly felt to this day, while only a third of its entries can be easily consumed. None of its games are ported or even in existence on current gen systems. In fact they're not even on the last generation of systems. The most readily available works are not games at all but short stories and of course Square's most successful CGI animated film. Most of the guide books have remained untranslated save for the work done by fans, and let's not forget the mobile and online entries that would have faded into the void if not for the efforts of dedicated fans.

It's because of this reason that the Compilation holds a strange allure and mysticism among a lot fans, especially younger fans who never got to experience the games contemporarily. These games don't exist in the present. Yet they're wildly and continually referenced, discoursed and merchandised. They're an esoteric fandom text from a primordial era of Square that's bizarre, choppy and of variable quality. Yet it endures and sustains itself. Any other media company or franchise would have left it behind and just "rebooted" the whole brand ala Marvel/Disney or Warner Bros/DC.

But for some strange, and obviously personal reason, they've resisted that strategy. Given how franchises today work to reboot every few years like clock work to capitalize on being entry-level and absorbing the maximum number of fans, the Remake is a clear aberration of the IP franchise model. But I'm almost certain that's by design. Kingdom Hearts existed in that same span of time the Compilation did and the creators there made sure to neatly release several collections of every relevant work on each system to lead up to KH3.

No such collection was done for the Remake of FFVII. Maybe we'll get one later on (which has been repeated since 2009) but until then they clearly feel content letting the Remake speak for itself and be it's own advertisement for jumping on board this train to who-knows-where. It clearly needs no help and the mystery is simply part of the fun. They don't want it to be neatly laid out. And if some new fan wants to take the plunge to dive even deeper, they want that fan to drown in that sea of FFVII apocrypha :monster:
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Barret being on the wrong side of the energy debate is sadly not a new development.

ezgif-4-91cd43ee0cf3.jpg


At least when presented with new evidence... He's able to admit when he's wrong. :monster:
 

KindOfBlue

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Blue
I like to think the ending of the Remake gives SE the opportunity to salvage some of the best ideas of the Compilation and either rework or remove the worst parts (though if Genesis shows up I’ll happily put my own foot in my mouth). I’m still convinced that Remake won’t veer so far from the OG that it’s unrecognizable, but just enough to justify itself as an unknown journey. If they manage to defeat Sephiroth once and for all, I wouldn’t mind a post-game Cloud and Tifa living together, running their businesses and taking care of Marlene and Denzel, only now without the burden of the three remnants (who apparently we’ve already defeated) or geostigma. Speaking of which...
The real conflict of the 2020 FF7 Requel - Geostigma spreading at the Gold Saucer :(
Get ready for Gondola Ride: Socially Distanced Edition
 
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looneymoon

they/them
AKA
Rishi
Any other media company or franchise would have left it behind and just "rebooted" the whole brand ala Marvel/Disney or Warner Bros/DC.

In all seriousness, the reason I'm having trouble buying this is because the state of FF7 right now is a striking reminder of that one summer of everyone freaking out about the Thanos snap. I just fundementally dont understand the drama when its painfully obvious the ramifications are gonna be (at least somewhat) undone for the sake of the next 10 movies coming out :monster:

Then again, I was that asshole in the cinema who audibly cackled during that Peter Parker part that was in all the memes, so I'm willing to say this shit is just not for me :P
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
In all seriousness, the reason I'm having trouble buying this is because the state of FF7 right now strikingly reminds me of that one summer of everyone freaking out about the Thanos snap. I just fundementally dont understand the drama when its painfully obvious the ramifications are gonna be (at least somewhat) undone for the sake of the next 10 movies coming out :monster:

I mean, I was sorta in the same boat. On one hand yeah, it was a dramatic and emotional moment that was cool and badass to see. But, I never forgot this was an ensemble superhero franchise movie that needed to last and it did strike me as... surprising in reference to how so many fans were so "into it" when we knew it was coming.

Then again, I was that asshole in the cinema who audibly cackled in the cinema during that Peter Parker part that was in all the memes, so I'm willing to say this shit is just not for me :P

LOL that's so harsh. Hilarious.. But harsh. :monster: I was also skeptical they would leave him gone for good. That just wasn't gonna happen.

Honestly in regards to FFVII, I'm just left wondering what they're gonna do with it all and am curious... Will they simply play it safe, will they go buck wild with no rhyme or reason, or will they ultimately craft a balance between the two extremes that delivers something interesting that communicates something of note? If the writers do nothing else from this point on but keep the story/gameplay interesting while simply communicating the same themes of FFVII in a more modern and adaptive way, they've still come out on top in the end. And that's the bare minimum. Path of least resistance. And it would work because the themes of FFVII hold strong today. If however, they're able to dig deep and communicate those same themes effectively while also doing something new and entertaining? That's a bonus and it seems to be what they're shooting for.

Whether they're successful or not remains to be seen but as long as they don't drop all their balls juggling this Remake, they can do it. At this point, what could they do other than just blow up FFVII wholesale and make it unrecognizable? Which they said they weren't gonna do and are clearly are working to avoid. They can go crazy as they did in Part 1 but at this point, it wouldn't be as shocking anymore and that would still leave a good 90% of the game rocking as hard as Part 1 did. They'd have to actually work extra hard to somehow drop everything and just fuck it up entirely.
 
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Odysseus

Ninja Potato
AKA
Ody
In an ideal world the ending of part 1 would be used to justify some more drastic shifts from the OG where such things might actually improve the story *cough*fort condor*cough* while leaving other parts alone. I expect more radical and controversial shifts to be there too, since Sephiroth 2 Sephiroth harder needs to be elaborated on. I'm betting the story won't wrap up the same way at least.
 
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Ite

Save your valediction (she/her)
AKA
Ite
Obviously, I would never say that you can't or shouldn't enjoy something you don't understand. I'm saying that to leave half of your audience in the dark in terms of context and character (Zack's superhero reveal without the established context of Crisis Core) is not good writing.

I'm not trying to dictate what audiences should or shouldn't consume. I'm just looking at this from a writing perspective. I started watching Walking Dead at the beginning of Season 4 and I personally think that's a great starting off point. But because it was syndicated television, the writers of Walking Dead made sure that I had all the appropriate context to understand the major beats of each episode. When the governor returns I had a few episodes of him as a figure, whispered about by the other characters -- he was as much backstory to my Walking Dead experience as Sephiroth was in the beginning of FF7. No such context is given to Zack, we're assumed to know him already, and if not? Well you can google him. As Episode 1? That's bad writing.
 
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The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
The influence of the Compilation is strongly felt to this day, while only a third of its entries can be easily consumed. None of its games are ported or even in existence on current gen systems. In fact they're not even on the last generation of systems. The most readily available works are not games at all but short stories and of course Square's most successful CGI animated film.
Ironically, this is pretty much the precise inverse of the way things were a decade ago. :wacky:
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
By the way the Remake is being released, it's going to suffer from some sort of poor structural writing because it's chopped up. The narrative is going to be structurally distorted in terms of digestion, because each entry is simultaneously an individual game meant to tell a single continuous story. There's going to be clear distortions at an objective level that will ultimately have to be accepted due to the nature of the beast. What we're getting in terms of scope, depth, and ultimately in scale, we're going to have to pay for with it being segmented as individual parts that are going to be darkened due to having to manipulate itself to best format itself as a multi-game work. Presumably the weaknesses will be kept to a minimum while the benefits of given by this release style will be at maximum.

Regarding Zack, I honestly I don't think new fans are supposed to know who he is here. He's merely a name, a SOLDIER, and a person who seemingly is connected to Cloud and uses the same sword. This SOLDIER is shown to have saved Cloud's life at some unknown point in the past, and now Cloud is shown to be connected. That's not really a huge wedge of understanding. It's a purposeful dangling of a mystery. It's no different than say, us seeing Zack run out of the Shinra Mansion during Sephiroth's depiction of what happened in the Nibelheim Massacre. We're shown a random SOLDIER that carries Cloud's sword and dresses almost identical to him. What he's been through and it's mysterious significance is a cliffhanger-like end point that we're just left to chew on until the next part.

Ironically, this is pretty much the precise inverse of the way things were a decade ago. :wacky:

And that's what's so wild to me. It amuses me how this perspective been turned on it's head and what was so recent and present before, has become so distant.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
Regarding Zack, I honestly I don't think new fans are supposed to know who he is here. He's merely a name, a SOLDIER, and a person who seemingly is connected to Cloud and uses the same sword. This SOLDIER is shown to have saved Cloud's life at some unknown point in the past, and now Cloud is shown to be connected. That's not really a huge wedge of understanding. It's a purposeful dangling of a mystery.
It is all of that, though I'm sure most new players connect the dots from him to Aerith. I mean, my gf did, despite being otherwise confused about why we were seeing those images when we did.

Her main point of confusion right now is less "Who's that Zack guy and where is he now?" than "What's Cloud's deal since the mad scientist said he isn't a SOLDIER?" I think we often forget that newcomers have no point of reference for the significance of the Zack sequences -- they don't know he was supposed to die there, so they aren't confused by the fact he didn't die.
 

Odysseus

Ninja Potato
AKA
Ody
I think we often forget that newcomers have no point of reference for the significance of the Zack sequences -- they don't know he was supposed to die there, so they aren't confused by the fact he didn't die.
This is what I was saying. It's only a spoiler because we know it's a spoiler, and him living is only weird because we already know it's weird.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Her main point of confusion right now is less "Who's that Zack guy and where is he now?" than "What's Cloud's deal since the mad scientist said he isn't a SOLDIER?" I think we often forget that newcomers have no point of reference for the significance of the Zack sequences -- they don't know he was supposed to die there, so they aren't confused by the fact he didn't die.

Yeah, that's the kernel of truth or hint-drop meant to have someone new question what the real past of Cloud is supposed to be, I think. Because when someone like your g/f asks that question, and examines the weird flashbacks of Cloud in a test tube in Deepground, Cloud's outburst towards Elmyra saying how Hojo sees people as nothing but numbers and meat, Hojo stating he's "not a SOLDIER, not quite" and then Cloud being a literal vegetable having to be carried away by another SOLDIER... One might be led to believe Cloud is not who he says, or even what he says. There's something off about Cloud and it might be he's some freak experiment. He's clearly connected to Shinra but there's something off...

It's a framing of the same mystery of Cloud's past, just done in a different way using the same clues... Just rearranged in the game's presentation. No clear frame of reference exists for Zack, and it's now going to be especially crushing when more is revealed later on. I think they're doing things this way because they want to play with both old fans and new ones.
 

minami758

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Miiwoo
And that's what's so wild to me. It amuses me how this perspective been turned on it's head and what was so recent and present before, has become so distant.

While playing the earlier installments of the Compilation is definitely much more difficult and inaccessible, it's pretty easy to find full playthroughs of all the installments except maybe BC on YouTube, and even then you can find most of the cutscenes there. Honestly I'd say it's easier to find the older stuff nowadays because everything's on the internet.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
While playing the earlier installments of the Compilation is definitely much more difficult and inaccessible, it's pretty easy to find full playthroughs of all the installments except maybe BC on YouTube, and even then you can find most of the cutscenes there. Honestly I'd say it's easier to find the older stuff nowadays because everything's on the internet.

But that's not really the same thing, and only adds to the sense of removal these entries have when compared to games that are able to be experienced and played today. Yes, the knowledge of these games and all aren't lost, but there's a big difference between seeing a youtube playthrough of Crisis Core, and playing the game for itself. Those videos and playthroughs don't exist due to Square, they exist because of fans.
 
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