SPOILERS FFVII Remake Open Spoiler Discussion Thread

[The Twilight Mexican]

Some people brought up a interesting point in that thread, it doesn't make sense for Cloud to remember any of those other experiments since in Nibelheim 5 years ago, it was just Zack and him and we know from all the other depiction of the Nibel incidence that the laboratory in the basement has only two tanks so what the fug did Cloud see there and where did it come from?

Edit: So I looked that scene up since my memories were a bit fuzzy and it looks more like that those images are not memories but just images of those poor souls who are still chilling in those tubes lol

This likely is just someone in the Deepground tubes, yes, but Cloud and Zack weren't the only injured survivors of Nibelheim experimented on by Hojo.

 

[a_apple 2.0]

This likely is just someone in the Deepground tubes, yes, but Cloud and Zack weren't the only injured survivors of Nibelheim experimented on by Hojo.

Well, that's news to me lol
So after the Nibelheim incidence there were other people also captured?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Yes, the other black-cloaked folks in the original game were also from Nibelheim. For example, the two on the upper floor of that one house in the present day had been the kids playing there during the flashback.

 

[Eerie]

Zangan really saved Tifa by arriving there first :s I hadn't realised this either.

 

[kathy202]

It'll be interesting to see if they flesh out Tifa's side of the story about what happened between Nibelheim and Midgar, and how she ended up with Avalanche.

 

[ultima786]

Some people brought up a interesting point in that thread, it doesn't make sense for Cloud to remember any of those other experiments since in Nibelheim 5 years ago, it was just Zack and him and we know from all the other depiction of the Nibel incidence that the laboratory in the basement has only two tanks so what the fug did Cloud see there and where did it come from?

Edit: So I looked that scene up since my memories were a bit fuzzy and it looks more like that those images are not memories but just images of those poor souls who are still chilling in those tubes lol

They may be Jenova’s memories?

 

[LegendarySaiyan]

Just rewatched the scene with the party discovering the pods with the experiments below Sector 7 and for me it does not look like as if Cloud remembers a female in a pod. It is more like he sees the male and female experiments in the pods below Sector 7 and remembers himself in a pod in Nibelheim.

The camera shifts to what is inside those pods in Sector 7 which are human experiments and there is male and female experiments. Cloud then sees himself (remembering).

Also another note, those monster he sees could also the be experiments at Mt. Nibel

Spoiler

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

The memories of Gaia and Terra that make up Memoria created a path to the very past, leading to the genesis of everything in the Crystal World where the original Crystal of existence resides. Tracing those memories further and further back, which were spawned through the Iifa Tree expelling all that mist thanks to Kuja nuking Terra, allowed Memoria to be created and Kuja to essentially read his way all the way back in time. Because memories are all interconnected and if you follow them all back... You can get to the source of everything.

My only point was that it easily fits and is possible. That's not to say that everything that's possible should be done, but I wouldn't say that it's somehow breaking FFVII's rules of fantasy, because it doesn't. How it manages to juggle it all remains to be seen.

Juat quoting this as it makes for a great jumping off point for an observation I'm about to make utilizing the recently localized "Final Fantasy XV: The Dawn of the Future."

When the story recounts Noctis's time inside the Crystal of Eos (a Lifestream-like place referred to as the planet's heart, and where the souls of numerous characters who die in the story are seen), he relives "memories" that he never had (they actually belong to the Noctis from FFVersusXIII), and this explanation accompanies that experience:

Given the similarities in cosmology between XV and VII (lighter than those shared between X and VII, to be sure, but still present), I wonder if we might be looking at an explanation for the mechanics behind VIIR's possible time travel/alternate universe shenanigans?

 

[Makoeyes987]

That's a really interesting observation. And yeah, I think that's... a pretty accurate perspective and would make sense with FFVII-R.

I mean, that's sorta what I meant when I said it was a loop of time being recounted/presented within FFVII's world. It's basically a playback of an AU that the planet would be witnessing of it's own past, and that would give it the knowledge to render a judgment through Holy... But that would then be distorted because of the presence of another force within that memory/universe, which would be Sephiroth.

It's sort of like how a crystal can refract light and the light ends up changing course by just a slight angle from the point of refraction, but then goes wildly off course because of that one change.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Sorry, I don't think I was clear. I still think any form of the "playback" idea would be a bigger steaming pile than time ghost plot police or Genesis showing up as the final villain could manage to be.

I was just referring to a possibility that for the Lifestream, all potentialities are neighbors in a multiversal reality -- except of course when "fate" keeps them all along a desired course that reduces drastic deviation. Anywho, if this is the case, I'm wondering if this property of the Lifestream could lend to certain powerful interlopers "crossing the streams," so to speak.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Well you have to explain why the Arbiters of Fate are a thing in this alt-universe of FFVII-R, and why are they trying to keep things from being different.

It being an AU that's connected to the lifeblood of the planet and a refraction of it's metaphorical crystal makes sense, but what ultimately is the reason for the planet to want to keep history the same and not wish for it to deviate? That implies that's actually a mistake, not a norm. And why would there be a force trying to make it deviate anyways? These are the questions that have to be answered to explain why the FFVII-R story is playing out differently. The Lifestream rendering judgment on humanity by essentially witnessing an AU was just one explanation for why the FFVII-R universe is different and having Arbiters of Fate try to keep things the same but there's also other explanations.

In the end, whatever is causing FFVII-R's story to be as it is, is because there's force at work making it so. It's not an organic manifestation like on Eos. FFXV had the manifestation of just numerous possibilities being reflected by the Eos Crystal. Why's that happening in FFVII's world?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I'm suggesting that it is an organic thing with VII's world, but "fate" (lowercase) is trying to reduce deviation for whatever reason. I wasn't especially interested in trying to answer the question of whatever that reason is so much as wondering whether the proximity of possibility is what allows for transfer from one timeline to another.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Hmmm.. Well the "fate" in this case seems to be the planet so I wonder what would be the reason...

It would make sense spirit energy and magic could create such deviations, if a planet/universe got large enough with a sizable quantity of memories and energy mixing together long enough... Sort of like how memory or a message gets distorted or changed when enough time passes. Sorta like how Eidolons have the ability to change over time.

In this case, the memories of the world/time diffract and distort, creating alternate worlds and deviations that are similar but can differ in certain key ways. All because memories can change and twist over time even in the Lifestream.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

All that seems to me a helpful way of thinking about it.

For the sake of nerd cred, I will venture an obligatory theory or two on why the Whispers may want to reduce deviation. Assuming there's more to it than simple preference, maybe it's a conservation of energy type thing? Perhaps an individual timeline's Lifestream loses some of its own energy with every branching, and the less deviation there is, the less sharing/weakening there has to be?

Or perhaps it's a sort of FFXIV situation where there was only one timeline originally -- i.e. it got splintered into many at some point, and the arbiters have been slowly getting them whittled back down by making them match as much as possible?

 

[cold_spirit]

I’ve been having a bit of fun kicking around this theory in my head.

For starters, a quick overview of the similarities between the lifestream and Jenova:

• Too much exposure to either can turn a being into a monster
• Memories are an important aspect of both (the lifestream contains all memories, Jenova manipulates memories)
• Both travel the universe for survival (the lifestream travels through Omega to maintain an interplanetary cycle of life, Jenova is an alien virus that arrived on a meteorite)

Considering these similarities, it has been my (and maybe other’s) headcanon since the Compilation days that Jenova is some type of twisted Minerva/Omega from another planet. Let's just roll with that for now.

This headcanon answers "what" Jenova is, but not the "how" (i.e. how did this other planet’s lifestream become twisted?) Enter the Whispers. Their job is to ensure destiny stays its course. But what happens if the Whispers fail? What happens if a planet is no longer able to prevent its course from diverging, intersecting, or overwriting itself? (e.g. whatever is going on in Remake’s Zack scenes) My theory is that the defeat of the Whispers will result in the lifestream fluxing uncontrollably. Without the Whispers at the reins, perhaps the lifestream spirals violently out of control, which is maybe the origin of Jenova?

What I'm trying to say is that Jenova could be the unfortunate lifestream of a previous planet that defied its fate. A "twisted Minerva” if you will that hijacked Omega’s ability to sail the cosmos.

So where could this go? I often think about Sephiroth's offer to Cloud at the end of Remake to join forces and defy fate. Just bear with me for a moment: let's say Sephiroth is aware of a higher power. Let's name this higher power Destiny (with a capital D). Destiny is a cosmic being that watches over all the lifestream in the universe. It equips every planet with Whispers, a type of Weapon that tries to prevent cases like Jenova. Sephiroth, heir to Jenova's legacy, doesn't like this. He seeks Cloud's help to defeat Destiny (promising that Aerith's fate can be altered or something).

Cloud and Sephiroth join forces at the climax of the remake project. Together they defeat Destiny. However, this is Sephiroth we're talking about, he fancies himself at the throne where Destiny once sat. The party is quick to react and kick his ass. With this victory the universe is utterly rid of Jenova's influence. The end.

I think this plot would be in-line thematically with what we've been given so far in Remake. Also, escalating the stakes to the point you're fighting a literal god is definitely a direction I can see this project going (see also: the FF13 trilogy).

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

That's a really solid and thematically fitting theory, @cold_spirit -- I can see it! I'd somewhat mourn the loss of the unsolved mystery to Jenova's origins if this comes to pass, but this might just be cool enough to make me okay with it.

Also, escalating the stakes to the point you're fighting a literal god is definitely a direction I can see this project going (see also: the FF13 trilogy).

Type-0 and XV: The Dawn of the Future, too. Basically, everything part of the Fabula Nova Crystallis at any point.

 

[Clement Rage]

Oh, no, not again. We've been killing God as the final boss since FFX.

 

[Makoeyes987]

So, should we have a game where we bend the knee at god then?

Hell, we sorta got that already in XV. And we saw how that turned out.

 

[ForceStealer]

Or the gods could also stay out of a game entirely

 

[Makoeyes987]

Oh, so we want a Naughty Dog game. I see how it is.

 

[Clement Rage]

I was kind of impressed that they were finally doing something else in FFXV, but nope, the real villain is Bahamut all along, according to that novel where the leads kill him.

I don't know what you mean by that, Mako, is Ellie your god now?

 

[Makoeyes987]

Well XV the game has it to where Noctis obeys and trusts Bahamut. He abides by the will of the gods and goes forward with their plan. Hence the original game's ending.

The novel is a different subject altogether, and instead focuses on the opposite. Which ending you find more satisfying depends on taste, but yes XV did do "something else" in regards to having the story for the game play out with Noctis trusting the gods, when in it's counterpart entry (when it was part of the FNC series) had the heroes do the opposite.

When I made the crack about Naughty Dog, I was more referring to how their games don't really deal with magical/spiritual matters and instead just focus on worlds that are more or less parallel to reality. They're not fantasy. Wasn't really a specific reference to TLOU2 let alone Ellie being my god lolol

 

[Smoothie King]

Oh, so we want a Naughty Dog game. I see how it is.

Not me!

 

[looneymoon]

Oh, so we want a Naughty Dog game. I see how it is.

Cloud kills Aerith with his own hands. Also she's pregnant.

I am tempted to make more unfunny loss memes please tell me no

 

[KindOfBlue]

Cloud kills Aerith with his own hands.

I still think this is pretty likely...

Also she's pregnant.

Okay, NOW we’ve gone full Naughty Dog