SPOILERS FFVII Remake Open Spoiler Discussion Thread

[Clement Rage]

Hurray for cryptic abbreviations! Sorry Ite.

Godhood for me isn't necessarily about actual power, but there's a specific theme at play, as 'the reins of history back in the hands of man' as FFXII puts it.

Spoiler: All FFs after 6

Kefka, Sephiroth, Kuja, and Ultimecia all gain power for different reasons, but they don't command worship the same way.

Necron if I understood correctly was the incarnation of death, so when Kuja destroyed the crystal he said 'oh, you want to destroy the universe. Okay, sure' and then when the gang fought him off realised 'hey, these people don't want to destroy the universe. Okay, see you when it's really time' Not quite the same.
Yu Yevon was effectively the god of the world which they had to be freed from, the Occuria serve a similar role (they were not killed, but depowered) In 13, the Fal'Cie are basically the gods of the world that it must be freed from again.

XIII-2 was not, but it was all about killing Etro. Then in LR we're killing god again.

And in 15 we're dealing with Ardyn, but the greater scope villain is still Bahamut the god. You don't deal with that in game, but there's no real indication that his characterisation or goals are different than in the branch of the timeline where he doesn't end up dead.

FF7R, the Whispers end up being similar thematically, which probably would have bothered me more If I hadn't found them so funny. But I still don't want to go to the same place yet again in future instalments.

 

[Makoeyes987]

What's funny is just like reality, your delineation and concept of "god" is ultimately subjective.

You say Kefka, Sephiroth, Ultimecia and Kuja "gain power for different reasons, but they don't command worship the same way" but that's just a personal categorization. And one can easily fit that to include them. Kefka's magical power and capability for total destruction made people gripped in total fear and despair worship him as a literal god, and he ran with it. Sephiroth obtained the ability to control the planet, and his will was so strong that he could exert complete mental control on those who were forcefully implanted with his "mother's" cells. Those Sephiroth Copies ultimately saw him as their god, and they worshiped him and even died for him. Ultimecia was capable of bending time, space and reality itself. Not only was she was able to create life from nothing, she compressed reality into a singularity with her magical power and came very close to becoming reality. Kuja was mortal but through his schemes and machinations, gained a power that rivaled the gods, punched a hole in reality and time, and nearly ended the entire universe. And he suckered the poor Black Mages into following his every word and obeying him. Not quite as godly but.. He certainly tried to touch divinity.

Final Fantasy has always, always toyed with challenging the divine and how it can be a manifestation of good and evil. Whether the villains are gods of old looking to control society for their ends, or they are people who sought power and obtained it at the expense of their humanity, there's always an "ascension" at work, where an antagonist obtains a power that raises them above humanity, or at least the status they were before. And even when they achieve that power, and dress themselves in the trappings of divinity and strength, they ultimately reflect the same human condition that they carried before their "godhood." Kefka retains his madness, Sephiroth retains his vengeful hatred, Ultimecia retains her fear of aging and loss, and Kuja his fear of mortality (among other examples of course). The "divinity" that is ultimately confronted in each Final Fantasy, is a representation of how the weakness of humans, with their need to work together and cooperate, can surpass an individual that obtains power to simply mask their own weakness and subjugate the weak. This simple, fundamental message is more than likely not going to be discarded especially when as we've seen, it can be told in so many different ways.

 

[Eerie]

I’ve been having a bit of fun kicking around this theory in my head.

For starters, a quick overview of the similarities between the lifestream and Jenova:

• Too much exposure to either can turn a being into a monster
• Memories are an important aspect of both (the lifestream contains all memories, Jenova manipulates memories)
• Both travel the universe for survival (the lifestream travels through Omega to maintain an interplanetary cycle of life, Jenova is an alien virus that arrived on a meteorite)

Considering these similarities, it has been my (and maybe other’s) headcanon since the Compilation days that Jenova is some type of twisted Minerva/Omega from another planet. Let's just roll with that for now.

This headcanon answers "what" Jenova is, but not the "how" (i.e. how did this other planet’s lifestream become twisted?) Enter the Whispers. Their job is to ensure destiny stays its course. But what happens if the Whispers fail? What happens if a planet is no longer able to prevent its course from diverging, intersecting, or overwriting itself? (e.g. whatever is going on in Remake’s Zack scenes) My theory is that the defeat of the Whispers will result in the lifestream fluxing uncontrollably. Without the Whispers at the reins, perhaps the lifestream spirals violently out of control, which is maybe the origin of Jenova?

What I'm trying to say is that Jenova could be the unfortunate lifestream of a previous planet that defied its fate. A "twisted Minerva” if you will that hijacked Omega’s ability to sail the cosmos.

So where could this go? I often think about Sephiroth's offer to Cloud at the end of Remake to join forces and defy fate. Just bear with me for a moment: let's say Sephiroth is aware of a higher power. Let's name this higher power Destiny (with a capital D). Destiny is a cosmic being that watches over all the lifestream in the universe. It equips every planet with Whispers, a type of Weapon that tries to prevent cases like Jenova. Sephiroth, heir to Jenova's legacy, doesn't like this. He seeks Cloud's help to defeat Destiny (promising that Aerith's fate can be altered or something).

Cloud and Sephiroth join forces at the climax of the remake project. Together they defeat Destiny. However, this is Sephiroth we're talking about, he fancies himself at the throne where Destiny once sat. The party is quick to react and kick his ass. With this victory the universe is utterly rid of Jenova's influence. The end.

I think this plot would be in-line thematically with what we've been given so far in Remake. Also, escalating the stakes to the point you're fighting a literal god is definitely a direction I can see this project going (see also: the FF13 trilogy).

So, I've been thinking about this theory a lot these days but also about that alternate timeline, and what if the devs do not follow the OG script this time.

I have been thinking about it because a lot of things in the game make you think that Aerith could not die this time around, especially towards the end. She may be needed or not for this theory, but let's say that her surviving doesn't block it at all. So 50/50. Another things that made me ponder is the fight against Sephiroth himself, because it looks so much like the OG's and it's so bizarre to think they would put the same fight twice in two different games?

What I've really been rewatching is Sephiroth and his little speech before they pass the gate. I got that uneasy feeling that not only did he want them to pass through the gate, but also that he wanted them to create that alternate reality. Like, I don't think they changed the past, I think they created a new branch altogether? And that new Sephiroth wanted it because in a world where Zack survives, to him, it's easier to achieve his goal. That's where @cold_spirit's theory kicks in and fills the blank, Sephiroth wants to become a god. And he could very well become one there to amass enough power before coming back to the world where the team is. Preferably at a point where he or Aerith opens up another gate to make the two worlds merge (he may or not use Zack as bait for Aerith to do this herself if she's still alive). And voilà, you have your Sephiroth:godmode to win against, possibly you could play Zack too which I think may appeal to the devs.

Then again, it's just me throwing a theory because I still have no clue lol. But that story of alternate timeline does make me think a bit because it's got to have an impact at some point on the first world - the one we game in. So I'm trying to see how everything could fit.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

What's funny is just like reality, your delineation and concept of "god" is ultimately subjective.

You say Kefka, Sephiroth, Ultimecia and Kuja "gain power for different reasons, but they don't command worship the same way" but that's just a personal categorization. And one can easily fit that to include them. Kefka's magical power and capability for total destruction made people gripped in total fear and despair worship him as a literal god, and he ran with it. Sephiroth obtained the ability to control the planet, and his will was so strong that he could exert complete mental control on those who were forcefully implanted with his "mother's" cells. Those Sephiroth Copies ultimately saw him as their god, and they worshiped him and even died for him. Ultimecia was capable of bending time, space and reality itself. Not only was she was able to create life from nothing, she compressed reality into a singularity with her magical power and came very close to becoming reality. Kuja was mortal but through his schemes and machinations, gained a power that rivaled the gods, punched a hole in reality and time, and nearly ended the entire universe. And he suckered the poor Black Mages into following his every word and obeying him. Not quite as godly but.. He certainly tried to touch divinity.

Final Fantasy has always, always toyed with challenging the divine and how it can be a manifestation of good and evil. Whether the villains are gods of old looking to control society for their ends, or they are people who sought power and obtained it at the expense of their humanity, there's always an "ascension" at work, where an antagonist obtains a power that raises them above humanity, or at least the status they were before. And even when they achieve that power, and dress themselves in the trappings of divinity and strength, they ultimately reflect the same human condition that they carried before their "godhood." Kefka retains his madness, Sephiroth retains his vengeful hatred, Ultimecia retains her fear of aging and loss, and Kuja his fear of mortality (among other examples of course). The "divinity" that is ultimately confronted in each Final Fantasy, is a representation of how the weakness of humans, with their need to work together and cooperate, can surpass an individual that obtains power to simply mask their own weakness and subjugate the weak. This simple, fundamental message is more than likely not going to be discarded especially when as we've seen, it can be told in so many different ways.

You're missing the idea. Basically every RPG final boss would be an example of "Killing God"/"God Is Evil" if all that mattered was transcendence or the power to endanger the world. =P

As a narrative trope, though, "Killing God" refers to taking down an entity who has hoodwinked, manipulated, or otherwise controlled the populace of their fictional setting. They need not be a creation myth entity nor even have a power level that we might describe as godhood. What matters is the widespread influential betrayal/manipulation.

So FATE from "Chrono Cross" is an example of this trope while the much more powerful Time Devourer (the final boss) is not. Yu Yevon, the Occuria, the fal'Cie, and FFXV's Bahamut are also solid examples -- granted we don't kill the Occuria, but we do effectively put an end to their manipulations.

 

[looneymoon]

Yes

Spoiler: I don't need to because someone already has

@ the killing God talk: is it even a JRPG even you aren't killing god?? even Pokemon did it

I see what Mako is saying here tho. The FF series (for the most part) has embellished the "killing god" concept with in-game lore/character writing but... the fundemental concept isn't really all that dissimilar from any other JRPG. I'd say that the series is more often a dissection of the trope, rather than complete subversion from that norm. This is to varying degrees, depending on which entry you're talking about. Even in the original FF7, we are kinda meant to see Sephiroth as being ascended in his final boss form. It's part of why I never really found him all that a compelling character tbh. Even as a kid, it always seemed to me like such a grandiose motivation in story that was otherwise fairly reflective of real life conflict. Though I always appreciated the angle that Meteor hit Midgar because Sephiroth was as much a victim of Shinra as anyone else ("in the end he was still human after all!")

I've been on a bit of a Lovecraft kick lately, and there's no doubt that FF7 toys with aesthetic components of Lovecraftian-godliness. Basically what I'm saying is... If thelifestream.net had a final boss, it would be Yop

 

[Obsidian Fire]

You'd probably name less FF games if you tried to find the ones that "didn't" involve the "Killing God" trope. Ironically, FFVII is probably one of them. As is FFVIII and FFIX.

The Occuria (of FFXII) are an interesting take on the trope as... they were really "killed" (in terms of their influence) all the way back when the Dynast King decided not to obey them. Which was less a "killing God" moment and more an "ignoring Gods" moment. The crux of Ashe's decision is more along the lines of if she is going to resurrect the gods or let them stay dead.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

The Occuria (of FFXII) are an interesting take on the trope as... they were really "killed" (in terms of their influence) all the way back when the Dynast King decided not to obey them. Which was less a "killing God" moment and more an "ignoring Gods" moment. The crux of Ashe's decision is more along the lines of if she is going to resurrect the gods or let them stay dead.

Did I misunderstand FFXII's story? My understanding is that Raithwall did precisely as the gods wanted while Ashe ultimately chose not to repeat history despite the temptation of that easier path.

 

[ultima786]

So I was thinking some more.

- What if the new Stamp is not indicative of a new timeline, but rather of broken memories and screwed up understanding of reality? For example, with the Whispers gone, the player can see certain details for what they really were, not what Cloud experienced them as. This would be a callback to the original game, where Cloud recalls his past through memories that are colored by Jenova/Sephiroth. I admit I do not know how this would work, but I would prefer this a lot more than time-travel or alternate timelines.

- Theory - Perhaps the Whispers were, in part, influencing the game more than we realize? Maybe they influenced the way Cloud (and maybe even the party?) saw events occur. And now that they have been defeated, Sephiroth can show Cloud the way things really are. This is also a call-back to the original, where Sephiroth desired to show Cloud the truth about his past as a way to break his pysche in order to make him his puppet to do his bidding, and eventually provide him the Black materia.

The above theory may also explain why Biggs is alive, and why it seems that the sector 7 plate is still intact and not fallen in the ending scene after the Whispers are defeated. (Who knows if perhaps we're just looking at the Upper plates incorrectly, or perhaps it's just a bug or a mistake). So basically, the Whsipers

Remember that the Whispers appear to have been infected by Sephiroth. Throughout the game, certain Whispers are purple in color (the color of JENOVA) instead of black-gray. You see this purple color at the start of the game during the intro with Aerith sitting at the Mako pipe. Therefore, whatever the Whispers were trying to do, they were compromised in part by Sephiroth.

Anyhow, I dont even believe the above myself but thought I'd throw this out there.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

So you know how something happens to people when Aerith touches them? It doesn't happen every time she touches them, but only, it seems, when she wills it to happen. It happened with Marlene and also with Red XIII; those are the instances I can remember. Whatever happens, it calms them down.

So my question is this: is there any WoG or fandom consensus on what happens when she does this? Is she using Cetra powers to calm them? Is she sharing a piece of arcane knowledge with them? Is she showing them a glimpse of the future, something that reassures and encourages them?

Any ideas?

 

[Obsidian Fire]

All of those interpretations of what Aerith does have been made. Like nearly everything else in the Remake, no one really knows what is going on and no answers are provided by the game. So it's a huge pile of unanswered questions with no idea of when they'll be answered.

 

[Wol]

So you know how something happens to people when Aerith touches them? It doesn't happen every time she touches them, but only, it seems, when she wills it to happen. It happened with Marlene and also with Red XIII; those are the instances I can remember. Whatever happens, it calms them down.

So my question is this: is there any WoG or fandom consensus on what happens when she does this? Is she using Cetra powers to calm them? Is she sharing a piece of arcane knowledge with them? Is she showing them a glimpse of the future, something that reassures and encourages them?

Any ideas?

either an innate Cetra skill, or an acquired one through contact with the lifestream (after she died and fused with the planet becoming a goddess of time and space )

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I'm not asking where Aerith's skill comes from, more what happens to the people she touches. Is it something they feel, or see, or some knowledge they receive from her? Some emotional connection?

 

[Obsidian Fire]

No one knows... It does someting we think, but we're honestly not even sure of that.

 

[Clement Rage]

It's her new limit break, Calming Poke.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

So you know how something happens to people when Aerith touches them? It doesn't happen every time she touches them, but only, it seems, when she wills it to happen. It happened with Marlene and also with Red XIII; those are the instances I can remember. Whatever happens, it calms them down.

So my question is this: is there any WoG or fandom consensus on what happens when she does this? Is she using Cetra powers to calm them? Is she sharing a piece of arcane knowledge with them? Is she showing them a glimpse of the future, something that reassures and encourages them?

Any ideas?

All of those interpretations of what Aerith does have been made. Like nearly everything else in the Remake, no one really knows what is going on and no answers are provided by the game. So it's a huge pile of unanswered questions with no idea of when they'll be answered.

I'm not sure how soon it'll be finished, but you can bet yourself that there's a good part of that information that's insanely thoroughly dissected in my latest tl;dr.



X

 

[cold_spirit]

This got me thinking about another subject (that maybe has been pointed out before):

We know Aerith passed the ability to see the Whispers to Cloud when they first met. Then Cloud passed the ability to the rest of Avalanche. Reno and Rude don't acknowledge the Whispers in Chapter 12 and Tseng definitely doesn't see them in Chapter 18. However, the Turks have known and visited Aerith her whole life. This implies to me that whatever event caused Aerith to start seeing the Whispers must have happened relatively close to the start of the game. She probably didn't see them as a child at least.

@X-SOLDIER, does your analysis include thoughts on Aerith's "Follow them. The yellow flowers" line? Been mulling that over myself.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

What is very weird is that Rufus sees the Whispers almost as soon as he shows up and he's nowhere near Aerith or even Cloud for the entire game. Or at the very least, the only pace Cloud could do... something... to Rufus to trigger whatever it is would have to happen in their fight (can't remember if Rufus sees the Whispers before or after that fight, someone check?). Problem being, Cloud has interacted with way more people on a lot more constant basis than he does with Rufus and no one sees anything.

So there's potentially some unknown way for people to see the Whispers that has nothing to do with Aerith. If you think it's something to do with anything that happened in the future effecting the past in some way though, Rufus had Geostigma and interacted with Kadaj and Jenova's head a lot back in ACC. So the future impacting the past in certain ways might also be a factor?

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I don't think Cloud passes the ability to see the Whispers on to Avalanche. He's not a touchy person; he hasn't touched any of them except Jessie. At that point I don't think he's even touched Tifa... although he does hand her that flower.....

Can Hojo see the Whispers? I can't remember. Sometimes the Whispers do things to people, and the people experience the effect but can't see what's causing it.

Someone suggested that an individual can see the Whispers when the Whispers need him/her to see them. This theory has the merit of simplicity, but doesn't explain the effect of Aerith's touch on Cloud.

 

[Clement Rage]

I thought it was that you could see the Whispers when they acted on you. They keep Aeris around so Cloud can meet her.

Hojo does say 'where are you taking me' IIRC when they sweep him off his feet so he can't spoil the plot, so he saw something.

Rufus is the puzzling one. I have no explanation for why they swarm the Shinra building after all our leads and Sephiroth have left.

 

[ForceStealer]

When watching the scene, I didn't gather that Hojo could actually see what was moving him. On rewatch, I'm not sure.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

@X-SOLDIER, does your analysis include thoughts on Aerith's "Follow them. The yellow flowers" line? Been mulling that over myself.

This it most certainly does, and in exceeding amounts of detail as well.



X

 

[cold_spirit]

I don't think Cloud passes the ability to see the Whispers on to Avalanche. He's not a touchy person; he hasn't touched any of them except Jessie. At that point I don't think he's even touched Tifa... although he does hand her that flower.....

Good point about the flower.

I thought it was that you could see the Whispers when they acted on you. They keep Aeris around so Cloud can meet her.

Nomura states that characters see the Whispers when "they come into contact with Aerith." Maybe being around Aerith's flower is what allows Avalanche to see the Whispers?

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1285609675145322498

 

[Clement Rage]

Rufus never met Aerith though?

Edit: Feelers is an interesting translation. That implies to me that there is some kind of entity behind the whispers acting through them.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

No he didn't... and he's setill definetly seeing and reacting to the Whispers. Very weird.

 

[Ite]

Rufus could have met Aeris, they’re about the same age and she grew up in Shinra HQ until the age of like 7.

Don’t know if she was a time lord at that point though, or if that starts in Chapter 1.