Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
You're right, I'm sorry, this is what I get replying to posts and playing DFOO at the same time
SPOILERS FFVII Remake Open Spoiler Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Lex
- Start date
You're right, I'm sorry, this is what I get replying to posts and playing DFOO at the same time
Clement Rage
Pro Adventurer
Possible, but I'm not a fan. Wutai ends up looking really, really ineffectual if that's true.
Clement Rage
Pro Adventurer
We know Wutai has a warrior culture, they've got to make their own gear.
Ite
Save your valediction (she/her)
- AKA
- Ite
Pre-war Wutai is a big question mark. They don’t have a materia shop you can go to, but does that mean they didn’t have materia? (You can find MP Absorb and Steal As Well in Wutai, but without something to link to, they are functionless gemstones, albeit beautiful). There’s no mako reactor (yet) and natural materia is very rare — case in point, Yuffie invokes Leviathan’s name like a patron god, and it’s one materia chilling in a mountain. So was materia one of the ways in which Shinra trounced them? Surely SOLDIER couldn’t be everywhere at once.
What about size and sheer numbers? Wutai is either the capital or the only city, but the bridges all along the continent imply there is/was another location in the south. As these are maintained bridges, they may well just lead to a Shinra garrison, not another city. Since Wutai looks small even by FF town standards (the ol “you can imagine there’s a whole town here and not just four buildings” trick) I’m not sure they were anything BUT ineffectual in a war against Shinra. Their navy may have been grand, but the only thing left to even hint at that idea is a big cannon.
@Clement Rage I also like to think that they had a really skilled warrior culture, just based on SOLDIER’s focus as infantry units and not “a guy who can sink a ship with his brain.” The pagoda as a mark of merit is also an indicator. But how do we know that Wutai gear is sufficient to wage war on Shinra? I mean, it obviously wasn’t. I can totally see them turning to other sources as they were steamrolled by scorpion mechs and glowy-eyed freaks.
(Yes I’m overthinking as usual. I know it’s just a game
)
What about size and sheer numbers? Wutai is either the capital or the only city, but the bridges all along the continent imply there is/was another location in the south. As these are maintained bridges, they may well just lead to a Shinra garrison, not another city. Since Wutai looks small even by FF town standards (the ol “you can imagine there’s a whole town here and not just four buildings” trick) I’m not sure they were anything BUT ineffectual in a war against Shinra. Their navy may have been grand, but the only thing left to even hint at that idea is a big cannon.
@Clement Rage I also like to think that they had a really skilled warrior culture, just based on SOLDIER’s focus as infantry units and not “a guy who can sink a ship with his brain.” The pagoda as a mark of merit is also an indicator. But how do we know that Wutai gear is sufficient to wage war on Shinra? I mean, it obviously wasn’t. I can totally see them turning to other sources as they were steamrolled by scorpion mechs and glowy-eyed freaks.
(Yes I’m overthinking as usual. I know it’s just a game
)
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
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- Smooth Criminal
Wutai was losing left and right because they were outnumbered and outmatched. The Crescent Unit were the only force of Wutai capable of fighting on par with SOLDIER up to 2nd. And they were only 22 individuals.
They couldn't handle SOLDIERs of 1-C, and they couldn't fight non-stop against such relentless and unending enemies. Nevermind Sephiroth. They were forced to fight guerilla style because Shinra was too vast and too strong.
They couldn't handle SOLDIERs of 1-C, and they couldn't fight non-stop against such relentless and unending enemies. Nevermind Sephiroth. They were forced to fight guerilla style because Shinra was too vast and too strong.
Clement Rage
Pro Adventurer
Yuffie's whole story is about how how they used to be more powerful. If they're ineffectual enough to not produce their own weapons, that story is broken. Yuffie goes from misguided to actually delusional.
Shinra does have a materia advantage, we know that from Yuffie's quest, but if it's so overwhelming, then Shinra is fighting a multi year war for no reason when it would be much more profitable just to annex the place.
Also I think that would be terrible worldbuilding and borderline racist (look at these simple people too stupid to notice that they're being played, with it's pathetic warrior culture that isn't actually strong and can't even arm themselves.)
Everything in the world is bigger than we are shown. Sector 7 doesn't look like it holds 50K.
Shinra does have a materia advantage, we know that from Yuffie's quest, but if it's so overwhelming, then Shinra is fighting a multi year war for no reason when it would be much more profitable just to annex the place.
Also I think that would be terrible worldbuilding and borderline racist (look at these simple people too stupid to notice that they're being played, with it's pathetic warrior culture that isn't actually strong and can't even arm themselves.)
Everything in the world is bigger than we are shown. Sector 7 doesn't look like it holds 50K.
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
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- Smooth Criminal
Shinra literally was funding AVALANCHE, so that point is meaningless.
Shinra rules the world. It's nothing about being weak or ineffectual, and certainly not racist. When a global monopoly conglomerate owns the economy, it's simple to create shell companies of any sort and size.
Who's going to stop them? Who's going to audit them?
Wutai was fighting a war against the world. They were doomed and their materia, military and martial arts ninjitsu training was not enough against the advanced tech and SOLDIER power Shinra used.
Shinra being able to take Wutai's money on the side wouldn't even be farfetched at all. Again. How would Wutai know? Who's gonna do the background check? How would they get the mechanisms to make weaponry and tech to rival Shinra? Wutai lasted as long as they did because Shinra wanted to annex them, not annihilate them.
Shinra rules the world. It's nothing about being weak or ineffectual, and certainly not racist. When a global monopoly conglomerate owns the economy, it's simple to create shell companies of any sort and size.
Who's going to stop them? Who's going to audit them?
Wutai was fighting a war against the world. They were doomed and their materia, military and martial arts ninjitsu training was not enough against the advanced tech and SOLDIER power Shinra used.
Shinra being able to take Wutai's money on the side wouldn't even be farfetched at all. Again. How would Wutai know? Who's gonna do the background check? How would they get the mechanisms to make weaponry and tech to rival Shinra? Wutai lasted as long as they did because Shinra wanted to annex them, not annihilate them.
The Twilight Mexican
Ex-SeeD-ingly good
- AKA
- TresDias
Would they have been willing to do that? Using Shin-Ra's materia is one thing. It's a naturally occurring substance, even if Shin-Ra has been mass producing it. There's no disgrace in that, nor abandonment of their autonomy and national identity (the whole basis of their refusing a mako reactor).
I just figured Shin-Ra dragged things out to milk public support for their military programs.
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
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- Smooth Criminal
That too, definitely.
Clement Rage
Pro Adventurer
Why, though? If they can annex Wutai at will, they don't need support for their military programs. They already run everything.
If this is true, Yuffie, Wutai's leadership, the Shinra Board, Rufus, and the general public are all brain dead. Shinra puts enormous effort into controlling stuff it already controls for no reason. War is not more profitable than victory, this makes no sense.
If this is true, Yuffie, Wutai's leadership, the Shinra Board, Rufus, and the general public are all brain dead. Shinra puts enormous effort into controlling stuff it already controls for no reason. War is not more profitable than victory, this makes no sense.
Obsidian Fire
Ahk Morn!
- AKA
- The Engineer
It might be a bit of an excuse plot, but CC has a whole string of (optional) missions where Zack is going around sretrieving Shinra manufactured stuff Shinra competitors have stolen from Shinra. Who these competitors are I have no idea. But I could certainly see there being a black market for Shinra products existing and how selling stolen Shinra products could be very lucrative to the right kind of people.
Incidentally, Shinra isn't the only one engaging in "lets do human experiments and use them on the battlefield". Wutai is too in CC and a lot of their units that aren't the Crescent Unit are inhuman monsters, like at Fort Tamblin. How Wutai is pulling this off I have no idea, but it is worth mentioning that in the OG, all the "Gods of Wutai" in the Pagoda seem to transform into monster forms... and then they can just all transform back after you beat them. YMMV on if that is actually what really happened or if it's just a game shortcut for giving people monster move-sets. But if Wutai was playing around with monster transformations... that might be part of why they gave Shinra as much trouble as they did. At least before Sephiroth and SOLDIER got involved...
Incidentally, Shinra isn't the only one engaging in "lets do human experiments and use them on the battlefield". Wutai is too in CC and a lot of their units that aren't the Crescent Unit are inhuman monsters, like at Fort Tamblin. How Wutai is pulling this off I have no idea, but it is worth mentioning that in the OG, all the "Gods of Wutai" in the Pagoda seem to transform into monster forms... and then they can just all transform back after you beat them. YMMV on if that is actually what really happened or if it's just a game shortcut for giving people monster move-sets. But if Wutai was playing around with monster transformations... that might be part of why they gave Shinra as much trouble as they did. At least before Sephiroth and SOLDIER got involved...
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
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- Smooth Criminal
See, the Wutai "monsters" or Anti-SOLDIER personnel are very interesting to think about.
I dunno, if they're monsters, so much as transformed troops. Because remember, what made the Five Saints of Wutai so powerful in FFVII were their ability to transform themselves. Henshin no Jutsu. Godo Kisaragi turns himself into an Asura-like creature to fight Yuffie and rampages with numerous Blue Magic attacks. I think those monsters might be lesser warriors capable of transforming themselves. But, I'm just going by precedent.
However, Wutai spies are also masters of disguise, seemingly able to change their gender, size, even age appearance as necessary. Wutai's entire schtick is ninjitsu and one of the most memorable techniques of ninjas is disguise and being able to change into animals. I think that's precisely what those big monsters in Wutai Zack fought in CC are.
I dunno, if they're monsters, so much as transformed troops. Because remember, what made the Five Saints of Wutai so powerful in FFVII were their ability to transform themselves. Henshin no Jutsu. Godo Kisaragi turns himself into an Asura-like creature to fight Yuffie and rampages with numerous Blue Magic attacks. I think those monsters might be lesser warriors capable of transforming themselves. But, I'm just going by precedent.
However, Wutai spies are also masters of disguise, seemingly able to change their gender, size, even age appearance as necessary. Wutai's entire schtick is ninjitsu and one of the most memorable techniques of ninjas is disguise and being able to change into animals. I think that's precisely what those big monsters in Wutai Zack fought in CC are.
The Twilight Mexican
Ex-SeeD-ingly good
- AKA
- TresDias
That's kind of the point Rufus makes when we first meet him: that his father spends too much money unnecessarily on worrying about/maintaining public support. Papa Shinra invested in stuff like the rocket program that the public would be keen on because it was showy and cool and "dreamin' big" as Cid would probably say, but not particularly (i.e. at all) profitable.
Ite
Save your valediction (she/her)
- AKA
- Ite
Racist, heh, you really have it out for me this week.
Is it racist to say that a conquest happened?It’s a fact. Wutai was annihilated and turned into a theme park, so much so that the heir became a bandit in faraway lands just to find a way to exact her vengeance.
Technological progress isn’t linear, it’s cultural. The native cultures of Australia never developed the bow and arrow, they were developing their own cool unique shit. You want Wutai and Shinra to be on an even playing field in regards to warfare, that’s just not how it went down. Meanwhile, I don’t see any other culture in FF7’s world even attempt the monumental wonder of Da Chao, something that will outlast Midgar by centuries.
I’m of the opinion that reactor-borne materia allowed Shinra to trounce the Wutai infantry, just like they trounced everyone else, but the nation held their advantage for long enough to necessitate Sephiroth. Whether or not they did that without turning to arms dealers is just idle pondering.
Is it racist to say that a conquest happened?It’s a fact. Wutai was annihilated and turned into a theme park, so much so that the heir became a bandit in faraway lands just to find a way to exact her vengeance.
Technological progress isn’t linear, it’s cultural. The native cultures of Australia never developed the bow and arrow, they were developing their own cool unique shit. You want Wutai and Shinra to be on an even playing field in regards to warfare, that’s just not how it went down. Meanwhile, I don’t see any other culture in FF7’s world even attempt the monumental wonder of Da Chao, something that will outlast Midgar by centuries.
I’m of the opinion that reactor-borne materia allowed Shinra to trounce the Wutai infantry, just like they trounced everyone else, but the nation held their advantage for long enough to necessitate Sephiroth. Whether or not they did that without turning to arms dealers is just idle pondering.
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LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
Lots of food for fanfic thought here.
This creature here, Vajradhara Asura - its English genus name, Vajradhara, "is a term that refers to a very important and high-level tantric understanding of the Buddha" according to a fanfic friend of mine who is a Tibetan buddhist and works for a lama. Now of course I don't know how much thought the translators put into choosing this name, and whether it has any meaning within the context of the game beyond the fact that it sounds good....
Its name in Japanese is 金剛坊, bongou-bou, which can translate, as far as I can tell, into "adamant monk" (or "hard boy"). A name which, if nothing else, at least leaves it possible to infer that the creature is a "hardened boy", a transformed boy.
It's difficult to see how the Wutaians could have made the war last so long if they didn't have some kind of strength to fall back on, and "magical transformations" would do it. I wonder how they achieved those transformations? Something ritualistic involving mako, I'm sure.
Now I'm imagining Hojo growing up in this culture and being disgusted by it, by how they call the transformations "magic" or "divine interventions", and he devotes his entire life to figuring out the science of how it works. Also, it would be cool if the transformation were controlled by the person doing the transforming, and were only temporary, whereas Hojo has figured out how to induce a permanent transformation, and one where the locus of control lies with him, the transformer (the scientist, the magician) rather than with the transformed.
I also can't see why President Shinra would want the Wutai War to drag on any longer than it has to. It's a huge financial drain on the company and it distracts from the serious business of finding the promised land.
This creature here, Vajradhara Asura - its English genus name, Vajradhara, "is a term that refers to a very important and high-level tantric understanding of the Buddha" according to a fanfic friend of mine who is a Tibetan buddhist and works for a lama. Now of course I don't know how much thought the translators put into choosing this name, and whether it has any meaning within the context of the game beyond the fact that it sounds good....
Its name in Japanese is 金剛坊, bongou-bou, which can translate, as far as I can tell, into "adamant monk" (or "hard boy"). A name which, if nothing else, at least leaves it possible to infer that the creature is a "hardened boy", a transformed boy.
It's difficult to see how the Wutaians could have made the war last so long if they didn't have some kind of strength to fall back on, and "magical transformations" would do it. I wonder how they achieved those transformations? Something ritualistic involving mako, I'm sure.
Now I'm imagining Hojo growing up in this culture and being disgusted by it, by how they call the transformations "magic" or "divine interventions", and he devotes his entire life to figuring out the science of how it works. Also, it would be cool if the transformation were controlled by the person doing the transforming, and were only temporary, whereas Hojo has figured out how to induce a permanent transformation, and one where the locus of control lies with him, the transformer (the scientist, the magician) rather than with the transformed.
I also can't see why President Shinra would want the Wutai War to drag on any longer than it has to. It's a huge financial drain on the company and it distracts from the serious business of finding the promised land.
Attachments
Ite
Save your valediction (she/her)
- AKA
- Ite
Awesome write-up! Thanks. That's from Crisis Core, yah? Hard Boy! I can defs see him wiping the floor with a sweeper.
I love that transform magic - Godo and the pagoda masters are peak ff7 fun imo. Omni-change! I always take it on as early as possible, and sometimes I get wrecked, even when I'm packed with materia. Without transformations of her own, Yuffie and the first few masters are (on a normal playthrough) equally matched, with Yuffie's adventuring giving her the combat experience, and (if you choose to equip it) materia giving her an edge.
Ooh, this reminded me of something from Remake: I notice that there was emphasis on materia being left behind by the Cetra. That was total news to me! What do y'all think? (well, aside from two specific materia...)
I love that transform magic - Godo and the pagoda masters are peak ff7 fun imo. Omni-change! I always take it on as early as possible, and sometimes I get wrecked, even when I'm packed with materia. Without transformations of her own, Yuffie and the first few masters are (on a normal playthrough) equally matched, with Yuffie's adventuring giving her the combat experience, and (if you choose to equip it) materia giving her an edge.
Ooh, this reminded me of something from Remake: I notice that there was emphasis on materia being left behind by the Cetra. That was total news to me! What do y'all think? (well, aside from two specific materia...)
Odysseus
Ninja Potato
- AKA
- Ody
The materia is the crystalized knowledge of the Cetra, so in that sense it was always left behind from them. The VR implies they specifically created materia to leave behind though, I think that's new. It's Shinra saying it though, so who knows if it's true.
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
Here's what I think.
We cannot take a single thing Shinra says about the Cetra at face value.
We know for a fact, from Aerith, that the "Promised Land" as President Sinra envisages it doesn't exist and never did.
Shinra have mythologised and essentially re-invented the Ancients as propaganda tools for their own purposes. This propaganda aims to instill the belief that Shinra are the natural heirs to the Ancients; that they are carrying on a millenia-old, hallowed tradition; that their goal is to cultivate and protect the planet in order to create peace and prosperity for all; that the Promised Land is a gift the Ancients wanted to leave behind for their posterity, but were cruelly wiped out too soon, and so Shinra is just doing its duty by seeking that land. Etc... Everybody who buys into this schtick can tell themselves they are engaged in humanity's age-old, sacred task: seeking to recreate the legendary Golden Age... that never was.
What we don't know is how much of this is a deliberate lie. President Shinra really does seem convinced the Promised Land exists. "It's just too attractive not to pursue."
No wonder Rufus is disgusted by it all. He is uniquely positioned to see behind the veil. He knows it's bullshit. And like most young people, he thinks the older generation is doing it (world domination, in this case) all wrong.
We cannot take a single thing Shinra says about the Cetra at face value.
We know for a fact, from Aerith, that the "Promised Land" as President Sinra envisages it doesn't exist and never did.
Shinra have mythologised and essentially re-invented the Ancients as propaganda tools for their own purposes. This propaganda aims to instill the belief that Shinra are the natural heirs to the Ancients; that they are carrying on a millenia-old, hallowed tradition; that their goal is to cultivate and protect the planet in order to create peace and prosperity for all; that the Promised Land is a gift the Ancients wanted to leave behind for their posterity, but were cruelly wiped out too soon, and so Shinra is just doing its duty by seeking that land. Etc... Everybody who buys into this schtick can tell themselves they are engaged in humanity's age-old, sacred task: seeking to recreate the legendary Golden Age... that never was.
What we don't know is how much of this is a deliberate lie. President Shinra really does seem convinced the Promised Land exists. "It's just too attractive not to pursue."
No wonder Rufus is disgusted by it all. He is uniquely positioned to see behind the veil. He knows it's bullshit. And like most young people, he thinks the older generation is doing it (world domination, in this case) all wrong.
ultima786
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- ultima
What did you think of Cosmo Canyon Observatory’s latest video?This it most certainly does, and in exceeding amounts of detail as well.
X
X-SOLDIER
Harbinger O Great Justice
- AKA
- X
Sorry, I have no idea who that is. Also, I haven't been looking much at what anyone else has been speculating about for the last month or so. I've been entirely consumed in near-constant research and writing.
X
Clement Rage
Pro Adventurer
Yes, Ite, my dastardly scheme is revealed. I have been plotting against you all along. I have cunningly established this cover identity for the purposes of bugging you on the internet, on this week when the stars align. BWAHAHAHAHA!
Conquests do happen, but they tend to be more complicated than that. I'm sure there is a healthy black market in Shinra tech, but Wutai not being able to supply its own armies except through Shinra is such a basic failure that it requires them to have no idea what they're doing and Yuffie to be certifiably insane.
Rufus isn't any better, he funds a giant army of terrorists for the purposes of assassinating his father and seems convinced that the North Cave is the promised Land.
OG Prez doesn't seem to really believe in it, he just thinks 'eh, why not?'
Y'know, oddly, the OG Shinra motivations seem more plausible to me than the remake, despite the much shorter and hastily translated script. It's weird.
Conquests do happen, but they tend to be more complicated than that. I'm sure there is a healthy black market in Shinra tech, but Wutai not being able to supply its own armies except through Shinra is such a basic failure that it requires them to have no idea what they're doing and Yuffie to be certifiably insane.
Rufus isn't any better, he funds a giant army of terrorists for the purposes of assassinating his father and seems convinced that the North Cave is the promised Land.
OG Prez doesn't seem to really believe in it, he just thinks 'eh, why not?'
Y'know, oddly, the OG Shinra motivations seem more plausible to me than the remake, despite the much shorter and hastily translated script. It's weird.
Clement Rage
Pro Adventurer
It's not the idea that Shinra has a tech advantage that's the problem, it's that they're so ineffectual that they have to buy gear from Shinra and the Prez could have crushed them whenever they like that is so awful. Sourcing your own gear is ridiculously basic and if they can't do that without Shinra stores, pretty much everything everyone does is rendered pointless. In particular if they're buying Shinra gear in bulk without smelling a rat, Wutai's leadership are embarrassingly ineffective.
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
That's the most bizarre and arbitrary judgment I have ever heard.
It ignores the entire context and truth of the FFVII world existing under a complete economic corporate monopoly that has numerous subsidiaries and nigh infinite resources to cover their tracks. Wutai creating their own gear or not wouldn't have changed anything, because it wouldn't have been enough within any situation. Not to mention one country against such an asymmetrical and omnipresent foe with technology several times superior to their own, was never going to be effective in the first place. Nothing would have stopped Shinra if the President chose to let loose Sephiroth on Wutai to massacre everyone in sight with no restraint, but he didn't. That was intentional.
Yes, Wutai was sparred, out of the choice of Shinra, because it could have been wiped off the map if he had chosen to do it.
It ignores the entire context and truth of the FFVII world existing under a complete economic corporate monopoly that has numerous subsidiaries and nigh infinite resources to cover their tracks. Wutai creating their own gear or not wouldn't have changed anything, because it wouldn't have been enough within any situation. Not to mention one country against such an asymmetrical and omnipresent foe with technology several times superior to their own, was never going to be effective in the first place. Nothing would have stopped Shinra if the President chose to let loose Sephiroth on Wutai to massacre everyone in sight with no restraint, but he didn't. That was intentional.
Yes, Wutai was sparred, out of the choice of Shinra, because it could have been wiped off the map if he had chosen to do it.