SPOILERS FFVII Remake Open Spoiler Discussion Thread

[LicoriceAllsorts]

It'll be interesting to see what they gained exactly when we get to Wutai. They never built so much as a single reactor there as far as I can recall, but maybe the Remake will be different or maybe it's a fantastic source of other raw materials and natural resources.

Yes, Mako, there really isn't any other interpretation of those lines that make sense. Her department didn't make a profit in the usual sense of sales exceeding costs, but rather by facilitating Shinra's victory. It's just such an odd way to think of a war, at least to my mind, but I can see a company would think of a war in terms of their balance sheet.

I am rather partial to the notion of Shinra selling weapons to Wutai through some third party company that Wutai doesn't know Shinra owns, and only selling weapons to which they had rather more powerful anti-weapons. Now that's good business.

 

[Ite]

It could be that Scarlet also sold weapons to Wutai, at a huge markup. It wouldn’t be surprising for her to roll up to town like Harold Hill, sell weapons to Wutai with the promise of standing up to Shinra, selling them flashy crap for the cameras, allowing her ally Shinra to justify blowing them back to the silver age. That’s profit!

It could also be that Scarlet was a normal weapons dealer profiting off of both sides, but became so fabulously wealthy by the end of the war that her enterprise was Shinra’s obvious next target, but she was smart and let herself be bought, not crushed.

 

[Makoeyes987]

That'd be some fucked up shit, a little too reflective of reality.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I like that a lot as a story, but IIRC the loading screen said her department made a profit for Shinra during the war. It would have been cool, though, if she was an independent arms manufacturers making a killing (figuratively speaking

 

[Odysseus]

Given that Shinra was itself a weapons manufacturer before becoming an electric company, I don't see why they'd outsource. Selling weapons to their own enemy for a profit, however....

 

[looneymoon]

Given that Shinra was itself a weapons manufacturer before becoming an electric company, I don't see why they'd outsource. Selling weapons to their own enemy for a profit, however....

Mako can't melt steel beams

 

[Odysseus]

Mako can't melt steel beams

The destruction of Mako Reactor 1 was an inside job
but actually though

 

[Makoeyes987]

Yeah, @Mr. Ite brought up a really incredible idea I'm surprised I never even thought of.

Shinra would totally do that. And it wouldn't even be sabotaged equipment. Maybe older or separate weaponry but they'd still work fine because they'd want buyer trust, it'd be profitable and overall it would allow Shinra to paint their Wutai opposition as a threat that justified such intense and amplified efforts.

It's so on brand. This is the same company that would murder hundreds of thousands of their citizens for propaganda, burn down villages to protect trade secrets and sacrifice their own employees to sate the curiosity of the head of their Science Division. Shinra are willing to do whatever it takes to maintain profits and control.

Hell, Rufus funded AVALANCHE. How the hell did he have their number on speed dial anyways? How did that contact even happen?

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Not to steal Ite's thunder or anything, Mako, but Shinra selling weapons to Wutai during its war with Wutai was my idea, I believe.

 

[Ite]

Yeah I was just riffin' on what you said.

Don't know the exact wording of the loading screen, the original Japanese, or what, but I think it's plausible that our scenario could be true from a certain Obi-Wan point of view. Shinra's spin might be "She's ours now, which means everything she ever did was for us."

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Can you imagine the poor grunts in the field when they realise Wutai are using Shinra's own weapons against them? And the Shinra propaganda machine is like, "Bad people are stealing our peacemaking technology and selling it to our enemies. This evil will not stand. We will win this war and make the world safe for good people everywhere." Meanwhile President Shinra is sending his Turks to bust a double-dealing arms smuggler who happens to be his pal out of a Wutai prison (Special Case of Legend, Before Crisis).

 

[Ite]

Can you imagine the poor grunts in the field when they realise Wutai are using Shinra's own weapons against them? And the Shinra propaganda machine is like, "Bad people are stealing our peacemaking technology and selling it to our enemies. This evil will not stand. We will win this war and make the world safe for good people everywhere." Meanwhile President Shinra is sending his Turks to bust a double-dealing arms smuggler who happens to be his pal out of a Wutai prison (Special Case of Legend, Before Crisis).

Also, this gives us the opportunity to really put our SOLDIER program to the test.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Exactly! "Tested in controlled field conditions." It makes it much easier when you know exactly what weapons your SOLDIERs are going to face.

Edited to add: since there is literally nobody else on the entire planet for Shinra to wage war on, maybe they provoked the Wutai war precisely in order to be able to test their SOLDIER program. I don't know, maybe that's even canon? Anyway, we can't have been the first people to think it.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Not to steal Ite's thunder or anything, Mako, but Shinra selling weapons to Wutai during its war with Wutai was my idea, I believe.

You're right, I'm sorry, this is what I get replying to posts and playing DFOO at the same time

 

[Clement Rage]

Possible, but I'm not a fan. Wutai ends up looking really, really ineffectual if that's true.

 

[kathy202]

If it were true, I would have to assume they purchased it off a middle-person or some broker and didn't realize the real source of it was Shinra. But that's still pretty incompetent, not looking up your sources and what not.

 

[Clement Rage]

We know Wutai has a warrior culture, they've got to make their own gear.

 

[Ite]

Pre-war Wutai is a big question mark. They don’t have a materia shop you can go to, but does that mean they didn’t have materia? (You can find MP Absorb and Steal As Well in Wutai, but without something to link to, they are functionless gemstones, albeit beautiful). There’s no mako reactor (yet) and natural materia is very rare — case in point, Yuffie invokes Leviathan’s name like a patron god, and it’s one materia chilling in a mountain. So was materia one of the ways in which Shinra trounced them? Surely SOLDIER couldn’t be everywhere at once.

What about size and sheer numbers? Wutai is either the capital or the only city, but the bridges all along the continent imply there is/was another location in the south. As these are maintained bridges, they may well just lead to a Shinra garrison, not another city. Since Wutai looks small even by FF town standards (the ol “you can imagine there’s a whole town here and not just four buildings” trick) I’m not sure they were anything BUT ineffectual in a war against Shinra. Their navy may have been grand, but the only thing left to even hint at that idea is a big cannon.

@Clement Rage I also like to think that they had a really skilled warrior culture, just based on SOLDIER’s focus as infantry units and not “a guy who can sink a ship with his brain.” The pagoda as a mark of merit is also an indicator. But how do we know that Wutai gear is sufficient to wage war on Shinra? I mean, it obviously wasn’t. I can totally see them turning to other sources as they were steamrolled by scorpion mechs and glowy-eyed freaks.

(Yes I’m overthinking as usual. I know it’s just a game )

 

[Makoeyes987]

Wutai was losing left and right because they were outnumbered and outmatched. The Crescent Unit were the only force of Wutai capable of fighting on par with SOLDIER up to 2nd. And they were only 22 individuals.

They couldn't handle SOLDIERs of 1-C, and they couldn't fight non-stop against such relentless and unending enemies. Nevermind Sephiroth. They were forced to fight guerilla style because Shinra was too vast and too strong.

 

[Clement Rage]

Yuffie's whole story is about how how they used to be more powerful. If they're ineffectual enough to not produce their own weapons, that story is broken. Yuffie goes from misguided to actually delusional.

Shinra does have a materia advantage, we know that from Yuffie's quest, but if it's so overwhelming, then Shinra is fighting a multi year war for no reason when it would be much more profitable just to annex the place.

Also I think that would be terrible worldbuilding and borderline racist (look at these simple people too stupid to notice that they're being played, with it's pathetic warrior culture that isn't actually strong and can't even arm themselves.)

Everything in the world is bigger than we are shown. Sector 7 doesn't look like it holds 50K.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Shinra literally was funding AVALANCHE, so that point is meaningless.

Shinra rules the world. It's nothing about being weak or ineffectual, and certainly not racist. When a global monopoly conglomerate owns the economy, it's simple to create shell companies of any sort and size.

Who's going to stop them? Who's going to audit them?

Wutai was fighting a war against the world. They were doomed and their materia, military and martial arts ninjitsu training was not enough against the advanced tech and SOLDIER power Shinra used.

Shinra being able to take Wutai's money on the side wouldn't even be farfetched at all. Again. How would Wutai know? Who's gonna do the background check? How would they get the mechanisms to make weaponry and tech to rival Shinra? Wutai lasted as long as they did because Shinra wanted to annex them, not annihilate them.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

But how do we know that Wutai gear is sufficient to wage war on Shinra? I mean, it obviously wasn’t. I can totally see them turning to other sources as they were steamrolled by scorpion mechs and glowy-eyed freaks.

Would they have been willing to do that? Using Shin-Ra's materia is one thing. It's a naturally occurring substance, even if Shin-Ra has been mass producing it. There's no disgrace in that, nor abandonment of their autonomy and national identity (the whole basis of their refusing a mako reactor).

Shinra does have a materia advantage, we know that from Yuffie's quest, but if it's so overwhelming, then Shinra is fighting a multi year war for no reason when it would be much more profitable just to annex the place.

Wutai lasted as long as they did because Shinra wanted to annex them, not annihilate them.

I just figured Shin-Ra dragged things out to milk public support for their military programs.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I just figured Shin-Ra dragged things out to milk public support for their military programs.

That too, definitely.

 

[Clement Rage]

Why, though? If they can annex Wutai at will, they don't need support for their military programs. They already run everything.

If this is true, Yuffie, Wutai's leadership, the Shinra Board, Rufus, and the general public are all brain dead. Shinra puts enormous effort into controlling stuff it already controls for no reason. War is not more profitable than victory, this makes no sense.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

It might be a bit of an excuse plot, but CC has a whole string of (optional) missions where Zack is going around sretrieving Shinra manufactured stuff Shinra competitors have stolen from Shinra. Who these competitors are I have no idea. But I could certainly see there being a black market for Shinra products existing and how selling stolen Shinra products could be very lucrative to the right kind of people.

Incidentally, Shinra isn't the only one engaging in "lets do human experiments and use them on the battlefield". Wutai is too in CC and a lot of their units that aren't the Crescent Unit are inhuman monsters, like at Fort Tamblin. How Wutai is pulling this off I have no idea, but it is worth mentioning that in the OG, all the "Gods of Wutai" in the Pagoda seem to transform into monster forms... and then they can just all transform back after you beat them. YMMV on if that is actually what really happened or if it's just a game shortcut for giving people monster move-sets. But if Wutai was playing around with monster transformations... that might be part of why they gave Shinra as much trouble as they did. At least before Sephiroth and SOLDIER got involved...