FFVIIR at TGS 2019 (NEW TRAILER!)

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Your proposal has a lot of sense behind it, but I think fans might riot if Jessie replaced Tifa for that scene. I could be wrong, however.

 

[OdaDaimyO]

Everyone who is interested about what was said on the Special Stage at PS's booth, here's a link for the rough translation, contributed from reddit user dottoysm:
https://onedrive.live.com/?authkey=!AJQ6cDgVYO042hw&id=18948C8ED8050305!77128&cid=18948C8ED8050305

Another translation for all abilities and triangle commands shown from the Aps Boss Battle:

https://www.reddit.com/r/FFVIIRemake/comments/d4utms/all_currently_known_abilities_translated_where/

And I was right about that Tifa's different fighting styles were stacked on top of another through the Shortcut Menu, without japanese reading comprehension... I deserve one cookie at least? (soo needy)

Edit: From what I understand, it seems like the possibility to have multiple Summons fighting with you in ONE battle, could be an option again!

Edit 2: With Classical Mode in mind, does that mean the AI is able to control up to 6 characters on the field?

 

[Jairus]

Your proposal has a lot of sense behind it, but I think fans might riot if Jessie replaced Tifa for that scene. I could be wrong, however.

Well, what I meant was that all three girls would be in the Don's mansion along with Cloud, each of them with a possibility of being picked like in the OG (and of course, Cloud having the possibility as well). Tifa would still be there, just arriving differently - with Cloud instead of waiting for him.

 

[Cannon_Fodder]

I personally think that prominently inserting Jessie into scenes from the original (that she wasn't already in) is a great way to make me dislike her. Same with making her a serious romance option; it just makes her seem more like an object or a Mary Sue rather than an actual character

Too often, I feel like storytellers use romance as a crutch to make the audience care about a character more--it just feels like waifu pandering to me, and I'm sick of that. I'd like her way more if she was just a flirty friend with her own stuff going on, or at most a romance option in the same way Yuffie is (you have to go out of your way to rebuke others and focus on her).

 

[Random Nobody]

Which is why I said the remake could address this by having her go after him instead of going straight to the Don's place. That would also answer part of RN's question, as it would resolve that issue with Tifa not going after him in the OG.

no, but i was asking why corneo's thothouse specifically. i wouldn't say that sequence is exactly critical in anyone's character arc, but the changes we've seen to these specific scenarios thus far are mostly based in reason (eg, shinra not dropping in a few metres from a man whose favourite time pass is gun). i thought about it for about twenty seconds which is probably more time than i spend thinking about most things, but i don't see what value injecting jessie there could have for her character. new scenes entirely are probably better suited for that. and given that barret and the rest of avalanche's defining characteristics are a destructive anger and black and white thinking, i'd be way more interested in seeing what her relationship to the other three (and tifa) is, and what shinra did to her to make her join in the first place.

it seems like it would needlessly complicate that part of the game (and what it establishes), but also it doesn't make a lot of sense to me to send the only techspert (with limited martial ability) into a situation where they almost certainly will have to physically beat someone's ass to survive.

 

[Jairus]

At the same time, though, not everyone feels that way. They can't just appeal to one group. And nothing was ever said about adding her to other existing scenes besides this. And some people want her to be more prominent, both as a character and an equal romance option to the other two, to make up for her limited time in the OG, especially since this is the only game in the series that she'll be in. Tifa and Aerith have the luxury of being guaranteed parts in the later episodes. Jessie doesn't. So SE, going by what they said about expanding her story along with that of Biggs and Wedge, should make the most out of the time she does have.

RN, it doesn't necessarily have to complicate the story. And she could have been sent because they had no choice, no other way to find out what Shinra was planning. And they could still expand her backstory in other parts of the game even if they added her here. It's not a binary thing. As I said before, it's a chance for some character development and to show a side of her that we haven't really seen before, to show that there's more to her than the tech tomboy. By putting her in a situation she's not used to but is forced by necessity to enter, that would allow those things.

 

[Cannon_Fodder]

So SE, going by what they said about expanding her story along with that of Biggs and Wedge, should make the most out of the time she does have.

This is exactly what I'm talking about though. Why does the only way to "make the most out of the time she does have" involve romance? Is she just a waste if you can't romance her? Is she inherently worth more than Biggs and Wedge since you can romance her? If romance is so critical, why can't I romance Biggs or Wedge? I know you aren't saying that necessarily, but that's how I see it.

 

[Random Nobody]

At the same time, though, not everyone feels that way.

what way?

but i didn't mean "complicate" as the events of the plot themselves (although i still don't think it's sensible sending someone who can't fight into a situation where they're defenceless and will likely have to repel an assault). i meant "complicate" in the way that this scene's only real relevance vis a vis characterisation is contrasting personalities and establishing how aerith and tifa relate to each other (and cloud unfortunately) and their reactions under duress. inserting a fourth party where there was none is going to change the dynamic regardless of how well it's done (if it can be done well is already in contention since it's objectively silly). i just don't see the value in doing that. if it's not "binary" and the intention is to "show there's more to her" than what we've seen before, that can still be done with new scenes instead. which is already happening judging by her yeehaw impression on the back of the motorbike and the fact that almost every scene she's in is new. so still don't get why wall market specifically.

And some people want her to be more prominent, both as a character and an equal romance option to the other two, to make up for her limited time in the OG, especially since this is the only game in the series that she'll be in.

i dunno, dog. would you call romance or physical attraction depth? it's really ancillary to her (and every) character. she could still be every bit as complex and prominent even if they excised her flirtation completely. though i'm just gonna be frank and say also that whenever female characters are written with attraction to the protagonist (especially of a game) as a major trait, it usually results in [sustained circus music] and i can only take so much clownery.

 

[Roger]

Don't think her being at Don Corneo's mansion yet conveniently deciding to inexplicably leave before the Aps fight is a good idea.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I know Jessie was canonically attracted to Cloud but I'd like to see at least one important female character who isn't. Oh, well, I guess there's Elena; she's got good taste. One female protagonist, then. I mean, Biggs is now posing some serious competition for Cloud in the sexiness stakes. And Barret is looking pretty good too... Having all these women falling over Cloud when there's so many other fine hunks of manhood around is kind of unbelievable.

 

[Jairus]

She's not, but it's the most prominent way to do it. And Cloud is the main character, plus she already has interest in him. So it's just extrapolating from what's already there, not making things up out of whole cloth, and the romance options in FF7 have always been from his view, that is, to be with him, not with the other characters. Aerith and Tifa were his choices, not someone else's. So it wouldn't make sense to put Biggs and Wedge on that list. I don't know why people bring that up.

And the trailers have given subtle hints of romantic potential between Cloud and Jess, especially the TGS trailer. When they first get on the bikes, before it cuts to the tunnel and Blondie's entrance, we get a head-on closeup view of Cloud and Jess on their bike for a full several seconds before the scene shifts. They could have shot this scene from any number of angles or kept it featuring all four of them, but they didn't. SE deliberately chose a shot for that part that highlighted them both, and only them, and we don't know how long that shot actually goes on for in the game itself. During the parachuting, Jess is clearly happy that Cloud's sticking around, and he seems to hear her, judging from the cut to him that we see while she and Biggs are talking about him. Combine those things with the scene of her giving him the materia in the E3 trailer plus her increased flirtatiousness and the fact of her existing feelings for him and the possibility of her being a love interest just as viable as Aerith and Tifa for Part 1 isn't so farfetched.

RN, romance is a part of stories, and it can be done well and be effective and used to explore other parts of a character's personality and story. Otherwise it would never be used. Should the OG have never had Aerith and Tifa feeling the way they do about him at all? And Jessie's not defenseless. Just watch her during the pillar segment, she's fighting alongside everyone else. Plus you forget she takes out one of the train guards at the start of the game with a swift kick to the chest. She can take care of herself.

Rog, I already mentioned a couple possible ways that could be handled. She could have dodged the trapdoor and escaped on her own or been sent on ahead through the sewers by Cloud while he and other two fought Aps. And there are probably other possibilities as well that could still be feasible. So just because something doesn't spring instantly to mind doesn't mean it isn't possible. I did say her appearance there was unlikely, I was just trying to make the point that theoretically, it could still be made to work if she was.

 

[Random Nobody]

[snip]

Combine those things with the scene of her giving him the materia in the E3 trailer plus her increased flirtatiousness and the fact of her existing feelings for him and the possibility of her being a love interest just as viable as Aerith and Tifa for Part 1 isn't so farfetched.

i'm not sure this is something that can either be defended or disputed. it's clearly a matter of perspective, because i saw nothing in any of the trailers that i would construe as romantic except cloud's reaction to aerith in a dress, and the held shots his and tifa's hands (and the latter mostly because of prior knowledge). waifu wars are beneficial to the longevity of a title (and merchandising), so i don't think it's a question of how far the fetching is. jessie's attraction to cloud being exaggerated to some degree is more a less a fait accompli, but whether that's a good thing or isn't could be argued. i personally...do not care, my initial question was just why it would be necessary to insert her into sequences where she wasn't initially present. i don't see why not just add new scenes instead of disrupting old ones.

RN, romance is a part of stories, and it can be done well and be effective and used to explore other parts of a character's personality and story. Otherwise it would never be used. Should the OG have never had Aerith and Tifa feeling the way they do about him at all?

it can. but let's be honest. it usually is not. especially not in these harem arrangements. in any case, i wasn't talking about romance in and of itself. i'm talking about the phenomenon where female romantic attraction to male characters dwarf everything else to the point of sublimation/becoming the totality (or majority) of their arc. and that is in fact one of the constant, major criticisms levied at the original game (particularly regarding tifa). whether it's a completely fair criticism or isn't (in this case) you could fight about, but it is one.

And Jessie's not defenseless. Just watch her during the pillar segment, she's fighting alongside everyone else. Plus you forget she takes out one of the train guards at the start of the game with a swift kick to the chest. She can take care of herself.

"defenceless" was probably an exaggeration, but whilst they're clearly somewhat capable of combat (surprise attack or no), all we've seen so far is that they're civs with guns. that doesn't make them much different from other members in the party, but if they were as martially competent as the main characters, they probably wouldn't need hired muscle to begin with.

Having all these women falling over Cloud when there's so many other fine hunks of manhood around is kind of unbelievable.

he looks like a centipede segment but it's the personality that matters.

 

[Roundhouse]

he looks like a centipede segment

Oh, well, I guess there's Elena; she's got good taste.

Jeez, poor Cloud doesn't deserve all this...

As for Jessie, I'm not sure I want to see another romantic interest for the protagonist. It feels like it muddies an already complicated situation with Cloud, Aeris and Tifa. The crush on Cloud is fine, and it was a sweet part of the original game, but I don't know if I want them to dig into that more, for the above reasons. Giving her more material and conversations sounds good though, sure.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Wait, was there a reason that Yuffie wasn't listed as an important female protagonist who isn't one of Cloud's romantic interests?




X

 

[ForceStealer]

Well, she thinks she is

 

[Jairus]

I wasn't saying that Jess' attraction to Cloud should overshadow everything else. It shouldn't. But neither should it be ignored. The same with the potential for returning that affection to some degree. We did have the option of flirting with her in the OG, so it's not without precedent. I can see her not being in the Corneo segment, I will say again that I did admit it was unlikely. But that doesn't mean that she isn't possibly being developed as a love interest aside from that. And here's the shot from the TGS trailer that I was talking about:

Spoiler: Cloud & Jessie on the bike

Now tell me that isn't practically screaming with subtle romantic undertones, especially when considered in combination with the other things I mentioned. What would a person who knows nothing about these characters think when they see a shot like this? A girl and a guy on a bike together like that, especially with a shot that close and clear, isn't likely to be seen as anything other them having some potentially romantic connection either present or future. It's true that the two don't know each other well yet at this point and they're not doing anything actually romantic at that moment (just trying to get back to the slums), but the visual imagery of them together like that clearly implies the possibility of them as one possible love route for Part 1, especially when you remember that this is the second time that they've been shown together by themselves in a trailer with no one else on screen (the first being when she gives him the materia).

And Roundhouse, I don't know how adding Jessie to the mix could muddle things, given that Aerith and Tifa's love arcs don't really culminate until long after Midgar and thus, long after Part 1. In Midgar, they're only just beginning and not much actually happens in a romantic sense with either of them (promise and church scene aside), and people tend to forget that because they're thinking about the FFVII story as a whole rather than just the Midgar segment. But as this is the only game in the series that Jessie will be in and we'll have nearly a full-length game's worth of time with her, she is the only one of the three that could have a complete love arc in Part 1, as I've said before. It's possible that something like the Gold Saucer date could be in Part 1, something like Loveless that you could take one of the girls to (or Barret, for those who like the comic route lol) at some point depending on your dialogue choices and actions since we'll be seeing so much more of Midgar than in the OG. I just don't think Jessie should be dismissed as a possible love interest given what SE's shown us so far and how little the other girls' love arcs progress in Midgar in comparison to the overall FFVII story, is all.

 

[Ite]

The fact that you don’t think that Wedge and Biggs have romantic undertones with each other, despite riding the same way tells me how much our media enforces the idea that any male/female relationship must be romantic. “It’s what anyone would read into that image” may well be true, but why? Because it’s what we’re taught to do.

 

[Jairus]

You're missing the point. They didn't do a closeup of the guys, only Cloud and Jessie. That makes a difference. And it's the closeup that I'm talking about, not the wider shot that shows all four. Didn't you read that? SE deliberately chose to show Cloud and Jess in that way. And when you see that sort of thing (girl and guy on a bike like that with her close up to him like she is) in media like games and movies and shows, often the two are involved in some way or will be. Sure, male/female relationships can be be platonic, but they also don't have to be, and I don't know why you seem to demand that they all be. You can't view the shot in isolation, Ite, but in combination with everything else they've shown us about these two and what we know about them. Think about the shot in the context of her flirtatiousness and attraction for him, which has been deliberately increased from what it was in the OG, as well as the distinct possibility of being able to respond to it in kind as we could in the OG. SE wouldn't do that without reason.

And I don't like being made fun of or mocked.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

The fact that you don’t think that Wedge and Biggs have romantic undertones with each other, despite riding the same way tells me how much our media enforces the idea that any male/female relationship must be romantic. “It’s what anyone would read into that image” may well be true, but why? Because it’s what we’re taught to do.

In fairness, that question is neither here nor there when it comes to whether a particular sort of narrative shorthand is being utilized as a narrative shorthand. One could ask that about anything from this to why we "know" a harp sound accompanied by an onscreen ripple effect "must" mean we're about to witness a dream, fantasy or flashback.

It's an interesting topic (to me at least), but not really pertinent to the subject at hand.

And I don't like being made fun of or mocked.

I'm not sure that was Ite's intention.

 

[Ite]

Not my intention to make you feel mocked or attacked. I’m just frustrated that of the many ways they could have fleshed out these characters, they decided to put the girl in a (more) romantic light. And it’s not on you it’s on SE.

 

[Jairus]

Sorry, it just felt like you were, based on what you said. I've just felt like I haven't been listened to, is all. Not just by you but by most everyone since I started this discussion. Just dismissed for the most part like what I've had to say didn't matter. But what I'm trying to say is what's wrong with putting her in a more romantic light for once and allowing her to have what she couldn't before? The fact that they're doing it does suggest that she may be a viable third option, or even the default one given her fate at the pillar and the much slower progression of the other two girls' love arcs across the whole FFVII story and thus, Part 1. I just wanted show that her as a love interest for Part 1 is possible and that it could work, and I wanted people to give it a chance and actually play the game before dismissing it.

 

[ForceStealer]

For the parachuting bit they did a close-up of Biggs and Jessie, and Cloud and Wedge...just for the record

 

[Jairus]

Oh, I know. I wasn't talking about closeups in general, just that the kind they did for Cloud and Jessie on the bike is one that's commonly associated with romantic subplots in media. And we know that Jessie's feelings are for Cloud, given how much she flirts with him and that she'd been shown alone with him twice before that. Also that Biggs is answering Jess' earlier question about if Cloud was a keeper - very likely an indicator of interest on her part. So Biggs might actually know about her crush and could have been encouraging her. And the shot of Cloud and Wedge was more just Cloud himself with just a bit of the back of Wedge's head. He was listening to what Jess and Biggs were saying about him. And I already explained earlier about why the switch in partners was likely made, due to Cloud being the only one strong enough to support Wedge's weight in the air.

 

[Roundhouse]

I have to admit, I always liked the way Jessie had that crush on Cloud -- it was cute. I wouldn't want her to be a full blown love interest in part one, though. That being said, I don't think your theory is impossible. Judging by the footage we've seen, the Jessie and Cloud relationship will absolutely be more of a significant factor in the remake. The extent of that is another question...but I get the sense that there will be solid material for it. I feel like it's a bit distracting due to the Aeris and Tifa stuff, but that's just my personal opinion. It will be interesting to see if they actually do go down your route.

 

[Cannon_Fodder]

Sorry, it just felt like you were, based on what you said. I've just felt like I haven't been listened to, is all. Not just by you but by most everyone since I started this discussion. Just dismissed for the most part like what I've had to say didn't matter. But what I'm trying to say is what's wrong with putting her in a more romantic light for once and allowing her to have what she couldn't before? The fact that they're doing it does suggest that she may be a viable third option, or even the default one given her fate at the pillar and the much slower progression of the other two girls' love arcs across the whole FFVII story and thus, Part 1. I just wanted show that her as a love interest for Part 1 is possible and that it could work, and I wanted people to give it a chance and actually play the game before dismissing it.

I apologize if I made you felt like you weren't being listened to, that wasn't my intention at all! But, on the other hand, it doesn't feel like you're really listening either (though to be fair, it's hard when everyone else is basically ganging up on you).

Take the part I bolded; I feel like several people (myself included) have specifically said what they think is wrong with putting her in a romantic light. Stuff like it puts too much focus on romance over other character traits, it likely means her story will all be about Cloud, using romance is an overused way to endear audiences to a character, female characters are especially prone to being limited to the role of "love interest and nothing more,"and maybe something else I missed. You're welcome to disagree, it doesn't make your opinion invalid. But the opinion that Jessie shouldn't be a romance option isn't invalid either.

At this point, the one thing we can probably all agree on is that this conversation isn't going anywhere positive