FFXV story/spoiler discussion thread.

[ForceStealer]

Spoiler

the concept that Niflheim invades Lucis while at the same time their entire nation has collapsed

Spoiler

I wondered about this part too. Given that there is apparently literally nobody left in Niflheim, when did that happen? Was it already in shambles during Kingsglaive? I'd wonder if the plan (on the part of the emperor) was really the get the ring/crystal to fix Niflheims daemon problem...but it never really makes it sound like anything other than simply being powerhungry.

I'm not super clear on Ardyn's intentions either. I mean..to fight a fully-realized Noctis, sure, but...why? To prove he's the true/better heir? But he'd be ruling over literally nothing. There's nothing left 10 years later, and what was he doing for all that time anyway? (Speaking of, was Noctis aware of the time passing or not? It seemed like he just woke up 10 years later, but then he's talking with the bros about it "being like old times" and sounding nostalgic.) I mean I get that he's the Kefka-style "want to watch the world burn" villain. But Kefka still actually thought he wanted to rule over people. True, he found he was bored with it once he got it, but how freakin bored must Ardyn have been?

As stated before, I do agree with X that feeling certain emotions about events that transpire solely because of the way Noctis feels about them has an interesting narrative value to it, and it speaks to the success I think they had with making Noctis feel real. But I know it's not what people want to hear about who was ostensibly the female lead. What's odd is that Square refuses to own this, instead acting like Luna really IS this great character and we're totally, like, not seeing it. Hang your hat on Aranea and just explain that Luna is a plot device for Noctis (since you apparently feel the need to explain it at all).

Honestly I think, as usual, I liked the game/story a bit more than others. Perhaps merely because I'm so surprised at how likable the protagonists became. But one other personal preference...I do wish that Noctis lived. After the absolute emotional beating he takes from Chapter 9 until the very end, would it have been so bad to allow him to ACTUALLY reclaim his thrown? Luna's death would still be a source of tragedy, the final camping scene would be no less touching. (Seriously that scene is amazingly well acted. I know I cried.) But to have Noctis at least be in a position to personally rebuild his kingdom would have been nice. It didn't even need to be deus ex machina, the fact that he MUST DIE to purge Ardyn is arbitrary anyway. Back when Versus XIII was being so outright with all their Shakespeare references, I half-jokingly said that that just means that everyone dies. But once it was FFXV, I think at least SOMETHING positive about the ending might have been welcome, lol.

 

[Claymore]

Spoiler

...the final camping scene would be no less touching. (Seriously that scene is amazingly well acted. I know I cried.)

Spoiler: I have to say...

that was freaking fantastic. I mentioned how stunning the character animations were, but that final camping scene, with Noctis' facial expressions (the eyes, the lip trembling) and how he struggled to keep his emotions inside ... that was real perfection. I seriously choked up at that.

 

[Random Nobody]

I know I must be some kind of asshole, because during that scene as with most all others, I was making the Tiffany Pollard stink face.

 

[Dark and Divine]

Spoiler

I'm not super clear on Ardyn's intentions either. I mean..to fight a fully-realized Noctis, sure, but...why? To prove he's the true/better heir? But he'd be ruling over literally nothing. There's nothing left 10 years later, and what was he doing for all that time anyway?

Spoiler: Well...

He seems to have been absorbing daemons and increasing his power. He says it himself during the final battle.

Skip to 1:55 in this video.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I too thought that camping scene was simply fantastic.

Spoiler

I think I've said elsewhere, that should have been the final scene shown at all. Cue "Stand By Me." None of that post-credits spirit wedding nonsense.

At least if Noctis had to die, that's how it should have been. Like you, Force, part of me wishes he had lived as king and rebuilt, and so the arbitrary "have to die to make the magic work" thing had not been a thing -- or that if it had to be, something more in keeping with the game's core theme had taken place. Maybe the other guys all grabbed a hand and let part of their life force go in place of all of his being given. It could even still be partly a tragedy in that they each lost a chunk off their lifetime by doing it. (Think of it as a somewhat more somber take on what happens at the end of the Hanna-Barbera cartoon movie, "The Halloween Tree.")

That would have kept to the aspect of the game it had really been pushing while allowing a bittersweet element to creep in without suddenly giving way completely to Shakespearean tragedy. It would have also allowed the other guys to feature into the ending in a more relevant manner since that final battle was between just Ardyn and Noctis.

You could have even extrapolated a real-world sentiment out of that -- something about life having ups and downs, shouldering burdens with our loved ones, etc. It would have been especially touching if Noct's friends did this even after ten years without him.

Oh, speaking of those 10 years, Force, Noctis didn't know it had been that long until Talcott told him during the truck ride.

 

[ForceStealer]

^Fully agreed.

Spoiler

Though I didn't completely HATE the Gladiator-style "they're together now, thing," but I was mostly just thrilled to hear the FF Main Theme after the great FF leitmotif purge of FFXIII

And yeah, a lot of media these days is leaning awfully heavy on the "you must make this arbitrarily huge sacrifice to do this other abstract thing." Tidus' situation actually made some logical sense. The Fayth had been unable to rest for 1000 years, and then needed to stop the dream. Here it's just a dick god saying "It only works if you die." Why?

Oh, speaking of those 10 years, Force, Noctis didn't know it had been that long until Talcott told him during the truck ride.

Yeah, that's what I thought. It's just weird that he then seems to talk with the same amount of nostalgia as the others.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

^Fully agreed.

Spoiler

Though I didn't completely HATE the Gladiator-style "they're together now, thing," but I was mostly just thrilled to hear the FF Main Theme after the great FF leitmotif purge of FFXIII

And yeah, a lot of media these days is leaning awfully heavy on the "you must make this arbitrarily huge sacrifice to do this other abstract thing." Tidus' situation actually made some logical sense. The Fayth had been unable to rest for 1000 years, and then needed to stop the dream. Here it's just a dick god saying "It only works if you die." Why?

Oh, speaking of those 10 years, Force, Noctis didn't know it had been that long until Talcott told him during the truck ride.

Yeah, that's what I thought. It's just weird that he then seems to talk with the same amount of nostalgia as the others.

I think it's that

Spoiler

they're looking back on them as fond memories from before the world was plunged into eternal night, and he's looking at them as the last memories that he'll ever have before he has to die. They're both reflective, but in slightly different capacities, which really makes their last foray into Insomnia one final good time together – hence the absolutely heart-rending camping scene (real tears from Noctis' VA, too).

Side note, because it was mentioned earlier

Spoiler

while Dino's sidequests are very, "go get X thing" the conversation he has with Noctis at the end about why he aspires to make the jewelry at all is really poignant.(Protecting people as the nights keep getting longer)

X

 

[X-SOLDIER]

So...... I was level 89 (with my party being 87), and I ran into a glitch that disabled all random encounters (at the cost of having to perpetually listen to the summoning music). I used that to run through the EX Dungeon straight to the boss, and attempted to cheese the Level 99 Costlemark Tower EX Dungeon boss (because Items are disabled there) aaaaaaaand totally died because I was under-leveled, but also didn't think to warp out with all those sweet sweet items.

AH WELLS, I GUESS I'LL JUST HAVE TO DO IT LEGIT NOW THAT NOCTIS IS LV 99, BUT I'LL HAVE TO WAIT UNTIL AFTER MY TRIP NOW. (Also being able to camp and eat food will probably help out a lot).




X

 

[Cthulhu]

the Level 99 Costlemark Tower EX Dungeon boss (because Items are disabled there)

Welp that'll be a no for me, I need items .

like, a few dozen times per fite

 

[Blade]

Welp, of all the disappointments I faced in the game, this one takes the cake.

Spoiler

You can't even fly to the island Noctis woke up on at the bay of Galdin Quay. I had more fun crashing the ship than flying it. Airship FAIL.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Speaking of, I wanna know more about the lore/history of Angelgard in the world and why he shows up there.




X

 

[Jason Tandro]

Speaking of, I wanna know more about the lore/history of literally anything in the world.

X

Fixed.

But in particular I really want to know what the deal behind Pitioss is.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Speaking of, I wanna know more about the lore/history of literally anything in the world.

X

Fixed.

But in particular I really want to know what the deal behind Pitioss is.

Sadism?

 

[Blade]

I think the 'joke' behind Pitioss is that the Magitek Core you picked up when you first go there was the only major treasure the Thieves managed to escape with and lost heir Black Hood on the way out because they were so desperate to leave that crazy place.

Worth noting a Genji Glove was found hanging on the Goddess' statue Navel, so I'm guessing Gilgamesh tried to case that place at one point.

 

[Blade]

NOW IT ALL MAKES SENSE!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sandman_(Vertigo)

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I'm thoroughly familiar with that series but still not sure I follow where you're going with this one. Care to elaborate?

 

[Blade]

Okay, first, consider the theme parallels between 'Sleep' and 'Death'.

Early trailers state 'The True Figure still Sleeps within the Fantasy'.

Then, think about how Immortality is, in a distorted sense, a 'Lack of Sleep'.

The role of the Oracle, and how she existed as an entity long before Luna. The idea of Darkness being this vast unknown World of Night.

Bonus points if you know Amano was involved with Neil Gaiman.

I know I sound semi-incoherent right now, but in the grand scheme of things, 'Death' isn't what we usually think it is.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dream_(comics)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_The_Sandman_characters


Just bear with me, this smacks of similarity.

OKAY let me spell it out:

Dream was originally this figure who was cursed and imprisoned for a number of years. He breaks free of his captors and gets revenge, but decides to build a new world with his powers. After making lots of mistakes in his nigh immortal life, he passes the position to someone else who inherits the role of Dream.

Granted the story is different, but a lot of things feel similar.

Consider that the Role of the Crystal is reserved for the "Ruler of the Night", Dawn itself. One must face True Sleep (Death) to comprehend the Darkness of Night. Even despite that 'Sleep' the King is preserved as a Dream/Memories. Those Memories are essentially the Crystal which blesses all with the Dawn of Light.

 

[lithiumkatana17]

Still haven't put together my thoughts on the game as a whole yet, despite starting a new game with the New Game+ update, but I want to say I did enjoy this particular bit of grim imagery from Chapter 14.

Spoiler

I was surprised that Square put something like this in the game. Granted, we've had some grim imagery from the FF series before, and even the characters aren't exactly hanging from their necks, seeing them suspended in those chains in the throne room that way like grim, macabre puppets made me stop in pursuit of Ardyn and try to look at them from all angles. I think this particular bit of imagery was well done on Square's part. I didn't particularly like Ardyn as a villain (seemed too cliche to me), but having bodies suspended over the throne like that makes you get a feel for how sick and twisted he is in the head.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Okay, first, consider the theme parallels between 'Sleep' and 'Death'.

Early trailers state 'The True Figure still Sleeps within the Fantasy'.

Then, think about how Immortality is, in a distorted sense, a 'Lack of Sleep'.

The role of the Oracle, and how she existed as an entity long before Luna. The idea of Darkness being this vast unknown World of Night.

Bonus points if you know Amano was involved with Neil Gaiman.

I know I sound semi-incoherent right now, but in the grand scheme of things, 'Death' isn't what we usually think it is.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dream_(comics)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_The_Sandman_characters


Just bear with me, this smacks of similarity.

OKAY let me spell it out:

Dream was originally this figure who was cursed and imprisoned for a number of years. He breaks free of his captors and gets revenge, but decides to build a new world with his powers. After making lots of mistakes in his nigh immortal life, he passes the position to someone else who inherits the role of Dream.

Granted the story is different, but a lot of things feel similar.

The story has changed so much from the trailers all those years ago as to be unrecognizable, though. Pretty much everything related to the concept of death (Etro, Noctis and Stella's ability to see the dead, etc.) disappeared from the plot.

Of what remains of the old inspirations, I feel like it has more in common with "The Lion King" (i.e. "Hamlet" ) than anything "The Sandman"-esque.

Consider that the Role of the Crystal is reserved for the "Ruler of the Night", Dawn itself. One must face True Sleep (Death) to comprehend the Darkness of Night. Even despite that 'Sleep' the King is preserved as a Dream/Memories. Those Memories are essentially the Crystal which blesses all with the Dawn of Light.

Okay, you lost me here completely. Where are all these terms/proper nouns coming from, and where do they figure into the plot?

 

[Carlie]

Still haven't put together my thoughts on the game as a whole yet, despite starting a new game with the New Game+ update, but I want to say I did enjoy this particular bit of grim imagery from Chapter 14.

Spoiler

I was surprised that Square put something like this in the game. Granted, we've had some grim imagery from the FF series before, and even the characters aren't exactly hanging from their necks, seeing them suspended in those chains in the throne room that way like grim, macabre puppets made me stop in pursuit of Ardyn and try to look at them from all angles. I think this particular bit of imagery was well done on Square's part. I didn't particularly like Ardyn as a villain (seemed too cliche to me), but having bodies suspended over the throne like that makes you get a feel for how sick and twisted he is in the head.

Spoiler

Hello Nyx's only cameo in the game.

 

[ForceStealer]

Spoiler

well he was dead the whole time. I was surprised there wasn't libertus cameo though, considering he was the only one to come out of that movie alive.

 

[Blade]

Okay, first, consider the theme parallels between 'Sleep' and 'Death'.

Early trailers state 'The True Figure still Sleeps within the Fantasy'.

Then, think about how Immortality is, in a distorted sense, a 'Lack of Sleep'.

The role of the Oracle, and how she existed as an entity long before Luna. The idea of Darkness being this vast unknown World of Night.

Bonus points if you know Amano was involved with Neil Gaiman.

I know I sound semi-incoherent right now, but in the grand scheme of things, 'Death' isn't what we usually think it is.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dream_(comics)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_The_Sandman_characters


Just bear with me, this smacks of similarity.

OKAY let me spell it out:

Dream was originally this figure who was cursed and imprisoned for a number of years. He breaks free of his captors and gets revenge, but decides to build a new world with his powers. After making lots of mistakes in his nigh immortal life, he passes the position to someone else who inherits the role of Dream.

Granted the story is different, but a lot of things feel similar.

The story has changed so much from the trailers all those years ago as to be unrecognizable, though. Pretty much everything related to the concept of death (Etro, Noctis and Stella's ability to see the dead, etc.) disappeared from the plot.

Of what remains of the old inspirations, I feel like it has more in common with "The Lion King" (i.e. "Hamlet" ) than anything "The Sandman"-esque.

Consider that the Role of the Crystal is reserved for the "Ruler of the Night", Dawn itself. One must face True Sleep (Death) to comprehend the Darkness of Night. Even despite that 'Sleep' the King is preserved as a Dream/Memories. Those Memories are essentially the Crystal which blesses all with the Dawn of Light.

Okay, you lost me here completely. Where are all these terms/proper nouns coming from, and where do they figure into the plot?

Spoiler

Okay you know Daemons thrive in the Darkness. And you know that FFXIII-2 and LR cited the 'Unseen Chaos' as this Dark Fog thing that can turn Humans into monsters and figments of People's abandoned memories in to ersatz constructs? And you know that the Star Scourge Plague turned humans in to Daemons.

The Crystals are seen as these deities that shine their blessings on all life. But what happens when that Light gets snuffed out? What brings back the Light?

Dissidia Duodecim explored the idea, showing Chaos snuffing out all the heroes completely after destroying Cosmos. But that wasn't enough to snuff them out. The Crystals they each found (important memories) brought them back from the Chaos of Darkness.

In FFXV, Noctis enters the Crystal, or rather the Realm of the Crystal and sleeps for 10 years. During those 10 years he gathers up all the important Memories he had with his Friends, even creating more in a past that could only exist through the Crystal. All the regrets he might have had, all the experiences he wanted to have could still occur within his Sleep. Sleep within the Fantasy.

In a way, Prompto's Photos embody the Memories he obtained. Crystalized Memories. Each memory and experience making him stronger than the last.

He confronts Ardyn twice, in this world and the next, and using everything he had, he defeated him at a hefty cost. However, that wasn't the end.

The Ending shows Noct and Luna together among crystalline light fragments. That's a clue.

The last time those fragments of Light appeared was on the Final Day for Lightning's world. Shattered souls, shattered memories, Crystal fragments, whatever you want to call them, they allow people to exist beyond death. That's why Lightning didn't want her memories of Sarah to get erased.

Dissidia showed that the Warriors of Light could bring back the Light of the Crystal with their Memories.

So, in FFXV, what brings back the Dawn? The Light of the Crystal. The sworn Duty of the King and the Oracle to Protect the Crystal. When Noct asks Prompto for a Photo to keep, it's a Memory he was able to show to Luna.

The people remember Luna and Noctis, so those Memories protect them in the Afterlife.

If that explanation doesn't satisfy you, just understand they scrapped/recycled a lot of ideas from Fabula Nova Crystallis. And they can't have NOT thought of this, or I'm insane.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I think XVersus ended up further removed from the Fabula Nova stuff than Agito/Type-0, but a lot of what you mentioned here does ring true thematically (e.g. Prompto's photos), and occasionally more overtly. I, too, caught those

Spoiler

crystalline fragments floating about (in the old trailers for Versus XIII; when Noctis's HP is at 0 in the "Episode Duscae" demo; in the final game when new Royal Arms are added to Noct's Armiger, when he summons the weapons during battle, or when he's about to summon an Astral; and in that final post-credits scene with Luna). We were previously told those soul fragments appear when Etro's Gate has opened, as in the closing act of FFXIII.

I do think you're right that some of the original stuff carried over. The name "Insomnia" certainly is an artifact from the time the sleep-death thing was more overt. Perhaps, as you suspect, Noctis needing to sleep within the Crystal is as well, even if the "10 years have passed" aspect of that plot point is obviously the developers waxing meta on the project's development cycle.

There's vestiges of the original plot, but what I suspect are the new plot elements feel "louder," for lack of a better word. It's like XV's world setting comes from two quite different mythologies being mashed together (it's not a good fit), and the newer one got center stage. I can't help but feel like the Astrals were not part of the original plot even if the crystalline soul fragments floating about when Noctis summons them seems to invoke the notion of them emerging from the Unseen Realm a la FFXIII's Eidolons (we know the Astrals slumber within Eos, which is in contrast to XIII's Eidolons, who emerged from and returned to the Unseen Realm at each summoning).

I'm unsure of the inspiration behind the fal'Cie, but Hajime Tabata has said FFXV's cosmology is some mix of Japanese and Western religious notions. Being more specific on at least one occasion, he compared the mythology behind it to the Bible.

----

By the way, I don't know if this will be of help to anyone else, but a fan calling themselves cold_spirit7 has compiled everything known and verifiable about FFXV's mythology into this Google Document, and included source references within the document itself (though I think they were incorrect about the cause of

Spoiler

Luna's body weakening -- pretty sure that's from carrying the Ring of the Lucii, not from awakening the Astrals?)

. It's a handy resource, but really highlights the frustration of how minimal the mythos for FFXV actually is.

Oh, and in case it's not obvious, the document is loaded with spoilers.

 

[Blade]

^That document helps me understand what they ultimately decided to do with the game, but still,

Spoiler

there's tons of elements not explained that are just there. Like why the Crystal does all the decision-making in the first place and why Humans are even subservient to it. Obviously Type Zero/Agito explains a ton of that if you've seen that story, even Lightning Returns talks about it regarding Bhunivelze.

I'm fairly familiar with Western Theology, but for the most part the explanation they give is hardly scratching the surface of what their original concepts originated from, even if you say it's "Louder" or more Prominent. No matter how loud it is, it's half-baked.

There's even an explanation for the so-called "Parasite" that was left out. Magitek Soldiers are obviously an FF6 reference to the 'merging' of Humans and Espers. But in this case they swapped out the term Esper for Daemon, making it seem like Espers are just monsters.

There's an FFIV reference buried in the Armiger King's 13 Arms lore they didn't mention either. Dark Knight job class anyone? Not to mention all the stories behind each weapon, including Regis.

I'm not trying to rattle off each Lampshade or FF Trope they used, but I am saying that what they ended up with is a far cry more of a mess than the original story might have been had they actually done something with it.

If I had to choose between the original story they used and the current one... I'd argue the original would have had better structure. Heck, even Kingsglaive uses a ton of things that should have gotten scrapped but didn't.

That's part of the problem. Jigsawing one plot over another doesn't make the plot better.

Too many cooks spoil the soup as the old saying goes.

It's also why I said it felt similar to Sandman, because Sandman actually changed authors several times too... and at least they tried to get Sandman to make more sense.

I sincerely would like to know Nomura's side of this story, off the record, cause it seems he got the raw end of the deal.

 

[Tetsujin]

At 42:40 there is a weird...thing? Monument thing? With swords and such. Wonder what that could've been about.