FINAL FANTASY VII REBIRTH ANNOUNCED

[Makoeyes987]

Man, I really wish she'd share that copy of Rebirth.

Would love to know exactly what it's doing to critique it, and see this extensive navel gazing it's performing. So unfair, being left in the dark like this.

 

[LNK]

Me either. In their eyes, what we're getting, is still FF7. I can choose to like it or not, but I don't decide what is or isn't FF7.

 

[Wol]

Man, I really wish she'd share that copy of Rebirth.

Would love to know exactly what it's doing to critique it, and see this extensive navel gazing it's performing. So unfair, being left in the dark like this.

But she made the critique based on Remake, not on Rebirth. Expecting the sequel to follow the same trend is reasonable conjecture.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Sounds like shes specifically referring to the entirety of the project. Especially this:

I think that’s what rankles me about this impromptu sequel: It’s so self-indulgent. It has nothing to do at all with the themes of the original Final Fantasy 7. It’s just navel gazing.

Otherwise she's talking straight out of her rear. This is no "impromptu sequel" unless the argument is Sephiroth is the main character and we're magically playing through his perspective now. Whole lot of assumptions for someone with no idea what they're talking about.

 

[KindOfBlue]

That's the problem, it wasn't done well in my opinion. It was rushed and random in execution.
And I don't think magical ghost sperms and time-travel shenanigans are specifically a great complement to FFVII, it doesn't jibe somehow.

Even devs can make mistakes.

I’d agree with it being rushed and random if there was zero build up to the last chapter but that wasn’t the case seeing as they’d been setting it up all throughout the game. Neither here nor there though, whether or not you like something boils down to opinion.

But who’s to say something is a “mistake”? Who’s to say what is or isn’t FF7? Who’s to decide whether a creator’s intentions are rooted in self-indulgence or a genuine desire to tell a meaningful story? It’d be one thing if the remake was universally panned, but the kind of engagement we see here should clearly indicate something was done right, even if it’s not one’s cup of tea.

But she made the critique based on Remake, not on Rebirth.

If she’s willing to judge the remake on its own merits, she and everybody else should probably wait until the story is over before making sweeping claims about the devs’ intentions or whether or not the changes are meaningful. How can we assess this fairly when the story being adapted was originally told in one part but is now split in three? We can only make assumptions from where we are now because to echo Mako’s point, it’s not done yet.

She’s also says she wanted an expanded, modernized retelling of FF7 and that’s quite literally what the devs did in Remake. Wonky-ass conclusion aside, everything she described there is what the devs delivered.

 

[Wol]

Sounds like shes specifically referring to the entirety of the project. Especially this:



Otherwise she's talking straight out of her rear. This is no "impromptu sequel" unless the argument is Sephiroth is the main character and we're magically playing through his perspective now. Whole lot of assumptions for someone with no idea what they're talking about.

Oh I understood as she referring to Remake as an impromptu sequel to the original.

Still, if the same stuff she criticized is repeated on Rebirth, I wouldn't be surprised but you're right, too early to tell.

 

[LNK]

Oh I understood as she referring to Remake as an impromptu sequel to the original.

Is it actually a sequel to the original though?

 

[Smoothie King]

Kat Bailey’s argument about losing the themes of the original and being self indulgent are logically incoherent; Remake is a story about remaking the world that birthed it. It necessarily must use the existence of the source material as the foundation from which any sort of story can be told. To ask them to be less self-reverential is just an exercise in redundancy. The themes of FFVII have already been explored in, guess what? FFVII! The Remake project is exploring meta-concepts that people who believe in nothing but material reality have a hard time comprehending. I love that.

 

[Wol]

Oh I understood as she referring to Remake as an impromptu sequel to the original.

Still, if the same stuff she criticized is repeated on Rebirth, I wouldn't be surprised but you're right, too early to tell.

She’s also says she wanted an expanded, modernized retelling of FF7 and that’s quite literally what the devs did in Remake. Wonky-ass conclusion aside, everything she described there is what the devs delivered.

I think the point of content is how they delivered that retelling.
The execution should stand on its own. I mean, the devs even said themselves you can jump straight into Rebirth. I still hope they'll give a reasonable explanation for all that happened, because as it stands right now, it's just random nonsense.

 

[Wol]

Is it actually a sequel to the original though?

If it creates another timeline with new events (especially with characters that know about the future experienced in OG as something that happened), it kinda is.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Kat Bailey’s argument about losing the themes of the original and being self indulgent are logically incoherent; Remake is a story about remaking the world that birthed it. It necessarily must use the existence of the source material as the foundation from which any sort of story can be told. To ask them to be less self-reverential is just an exercise in redundancy. The themes of FFVII have already been explored in, guess what? FFVII! The Remake project is exploring meta-concepts that people who believe in nothing but material reality have a hard time comprehending. I love that.

I'd go so far to say you don't even need to think that hard about it. The same themes of life and existence are present even without the meta contextual reference to the original regarding the OG. They're just expressed in different ways and through different people.

If it creates another timeline with new events, it kinda is.

Not really. That's like saying Wind Waker is a direct sequel to Ocarina of Time because Ganondorf, an immortal, remembers OoT and it all takes place in Hyrule. Or that FF Tactics is a sequel to FFXII.

Just because the antagonist may hold reference to events doesn't categorize it as a "sequel." It's ultimately its own thing and story that builds on that knowledge in the setting.

 

[Wol]

Not really. That's like saying Wind Waker is a direct sequel to Ocarina of Time because Ganondorf, an immortal, remembers OoT and it all takes place in Hyrule. Just because the antagonist may hold reference to events doesn't categorize it as a "sequel." It's ultimately its own thing and story that builds on that knowledge in the setting.

If you want to see it that way. The way Remake positions itself is way too ambiguous right now, it's a Remake that rewrites certain things and uses time-travel shenanigans as if multiple possibilities were possible inside that universe. It's all open to interpretation, but as it continues to build or reconstruct on the original events and setting with new events leading to different outcomes it has elements of a sequel too.

 

[Makoeyes987]

New events or elements that may lead to different outcomes. That sounds almost exactly like any sort of remake or adaption that takes creative liberty with the source material to simply re-explore the core themes of the work and adapt them in ways not thought of before.

The only difference with FFVII-R is they've chosen to do that with an in-universe explanation that puts the stakes of the Planet's previous outcome of survival as "stakes" so it adds tension to the story, and tension for the audience in terms of what to expect.

That's literally it. It's nothing so complicated, and it's not a "sequel" unless Cloud wakes up suddenly remembering everything or hooked up to some simulator reliving the whole FFVII like in the Matrix.

 

[LNK]

If it creates another timeline with new events (especially with characters that know about the future experienced in OG as something that happened), it kinda is.

If you want to see it that way. The way Remake positions itself is way too ambiguous right now, it's a Remake that rewrites certain things and uses time-travel shenanigans as if multiple possibilities were possible inside that universe. It's all open to interpretation, but as it continues to build or reconstruct on the original events and setting with new events leading to different outcomes it has elements of a sequel too.

But we have no confirmation that remake is actually connected to the OG. At least for now.

 

[Wol]

But we have no confirmation that remake is actually connected to the OG. At least for now.

It doesn't need to be canonically related, all that it matters is that it functions as a remake-sequel to FFVII. If characters from the future that is based on OG and even AC are affecting the past, then that's already a continuity for those characters and events (whether you see it as canon or not).

 

[Makoeyes987]

The only character who may be from the future is Sephiroth.

And he's the antagonist. That doesn't make the Remake a sequel. Like it literally doesn't. You don't need the OG to understand or parse the plot, and the Remake's story is self contained as a different adaption of FFVII's narrative with added parts to it. Knowing the OG is certainly a bonus, just like knowing the Compilation is a bonus, since it adds a more rich context to it all, but it ultimately isn't necessary.

That's not a sequel at all.

 

[KindOfBlue]

Not really. That's like saying Wind Waker is a direct sequel to Ocarina of Time because Ganondorf, an immortal, remembers OoT and it all takes place in Hyrule. Or that FF Tactics is a sequel to FFXII.

Just because the antagonist may hold reference to events doesn't categorize it as a "sequel." It's ultimately its own thing and story that builds on that knowledge in the setting.

This. Knowing the OG and the Compilation certainly adds more context to the remake’s story but it’s not like it’s unplayable in isolation, the devs expected newcomers to jump on board with the remake. Shoot, Nomura’s message even said Rebirth could be a place to start for new players, I’m curious what the hell that means if anything.

It doesn't need to be canonically related, all that it matters is that it functions as a remake-sequel to FFVII. If characters from the future that is based on OG and even AC are affecting the past, then that's already a continuity for those characters and events (whether you see it as canon or not).

That isn’t inherently indicative of a sequel though, particularly in this case where the story was plotted for both old and new fans. I don’t consider Remake any more a sequel than I would a film remake or adaptation that changes the outcome of the source material’s plot. If the changes to the story retroactively affected the OG or if the devs said this remake’s continuity sequentially follows the OG and Compilation, then I’d be more inclined to call it a sequel. The devs encouraged players to still play the OG because more money but also because the OG is a separate experience in their eyes.

 

[Wol]

The only character who may be from the future is Sephiroth.

And he's the antagonist. That doesn't make the Remake a sequel. Like it literally doesn't. You don't need the OG to understand or parse the plot, and the Remake's story is self contained as a different adaption of FFVII's narrative with added parts to it. Knowing the OG is certainly a bonus, just like knowing the Compilation is a bonus, since it adds a more rich context to it all, but it ultimately isn't necessary.

That's not a sequel at all.

If it adds new information and continues OG events, it technically works as a sequel imo and if one considers it to be canon to the original (and hell can you prove them wrong?), then it's definitely a sequel. The problem it's that is all too ambiguous now (purposely so, maybe it's for each one of us to decide), there were people even saying FFVIIR wasn't a remake because they changed stuff.

This is not a traditional game, it's hard to define because it functions as both remake-sequel-alternate canon-retcon and its playing around with what's canon or not (fact or fiction).

 

[Makoeyes987]

Every work, every adaption, should have "new information" unless it's a rote, soulless kind of remake like the movie Psycho of 1998. The principle purpose of doing a remake is to adapt and exhibit the story in a way that uniquely allows it to be different and effective in ways the original wasn't before.

I don't see the Remake of FFVII "continuing" anything. It just is. Claiming its own existence is "navel-gazing" is sort of hypocritical. Works stand on their own defined merits all the time, and implying this one has to take a sort of hard stance either/or to answer an immediate burning question about it's existence and consumption is supremely naive and conceited. It's demanding comfort.

I get that sort of ambiguity isn't for everybody but that's how the Remake is, and demanding that definite answer to pin down how it can be safely consumed is hilarious. The fact it so effectively threads the in-between shows it's doing what's intended. Clearly that's how it's challenging the audience and if audiences don't want to be challenged that way, that's fair. But that's not the Remake's fault. Audience challenges are not some dishonest, mean affront to the player.

 

[LNK]

It doesn't need to be canonically related, all that it matters is that it functions as a remake-sequel to FFVII. If characters from the future that is based on OG and even AC are affecting the past, then that's already a continuity for those characters and events (whether you see it as canon or not).

They do have to be canonically related though. That's part of the definition of "sequel."

If it adds new information and continues OG events, it technically works as a sequel imo and if one considers it to be canon to the original (and hell can you prove them wrong?), then it's definitely a sequel. The problem it's that is all too ambiguous now (purposely so, maybe it's for each one of us to decide), there were people even saying FFVIIR wasn't a remake because they changed stuff.

This is not a traditional game, it's hard to define because it functions as both remake-sequel-alternate canon-retcon and its playing around with what's canon or not (fact or fiction).

We have no confirmation that it does continue the events of the OG though. According to the remake ultimania, the only events prior to remake, are what happened in crisis core and before crisis

If someone wants to look at the remake project as a sequel to OG, that's on them. It doesn't actually make it canonically true though

And if people want to think it isn't a remake, that's on them as well. By definition, it is a remake

 

[Wol]

Every work, every adaption, should have "new information" unless it's a rote, soulless kind of remake like the movie Psycho of 1998. The principle purpose of doing a remake is to adapt and exhibit the story in a way that uniquely allows it to be different and effective in ways the original wasn't before.

I don't see the Remake of FFVII "continuing" anything. It just is. Claiming its own existence is "navel-gazing" is sort of hypocritical. Works stand on their own defined merits all the time and implying it has to take a sort of hard stance either/or to answer an immediate burning question about it's existence is supremely naive and conceited.

I get that sort of ambiguity isn't for everybody but that's how it is, and wanting that definite answer to pin down how it can be safely consumed is hilarious. The fact it so effectively threads the in-between shows it's doing what's intended. Clearly that's how it's challenging the audience and if audiences don't want to be challenged that way, that's fair. But that's not the Remake's fault. Audience challenges are not some dishonest, mean affront to the player.

The new information here is about characters that know about the future (or are from) based on og affecting the past, and it's leaving open the idea of parallel universes or timelines, that in theory doesn't contradict OG in anyway. It can be seen as canon if you want, so far at least. This information is not only expanding og, but continuing it.

 

[Makoeyes987]

That's again only one person. The villain. Sephiroth.

Aerith's not from the future. I know some people theorize that, but she isn't. Her "knowledge" of things that are outside her experience comes from her being a Cetra and being in proximity to the Planet's entities that apparently hold knowledge of how the OG of FFVII played out. She's not a time traveler. That's how it is explained and detailed.

And ultimately this isn't a carry over or continuation of FFVII. That's not what this is. This is an adaption of those events playing out in a different way within itself. How the Remake is "canon" to the OG remains to be seen. That's another ambiguity it plays with. But the OG is done. This isn't carrying over some unresolved narrative or something from FFVII. This IS FFVII, in a literal different way.

 

[Wol]

That's again only one person. The villain. Sephiroth.

Aerith's not from the future. I know some people theorize that, but she isn't. Her "knowledge" of things that are outside her experience comes from her being a Cetra and being in proximity to the Planet's entities that apparently hold knowledge of how the OG of FFVII played out. She's not a time traveler. That's how it is explained and detailed.

And ultimately this isn't a carry over or continuation of FFVII. That's not what this is. This is an adaption of those events playing out in a different way within itself. How the Remake is "canon" to the OG remains to be seen. That's another ambiguity it plays with. But the OG is done. This isn't carrying over some unresolved narrative or something from FFVII. This IS FFVII, in a literal different way.

Well, so far we have Seph, the clones and ghosts, that are potentially souls of future individuals (?).

We also don't know if Aeris has contact with future Aeris meshed with the Lifestream as a higher conscience.

Remake is pretending to continue OG, even if it's not canon, that's why it can be considered a sort of sequel imo. In the same way it's a Remake but not quite in the way the general audience expected. They're playing with us.

 

[Eerie]

@Makoeyes987: That's exactly how I see Remake personally; there is absolutely nothing that says "hey, the OG has already happened!". I know people freak out because of Aerith, but if we follow ToTP, then it means that Aerith has absolutely no way of guessing the future anymore - them beating the Whispers was definitely the way to achieve this.

The only moment when I thought "OMG, Aerith knows she's going to die, OMG how does she know so much??" was during her resolution, and then Toriyama explained that she pulled an Aerith from the close future - meaning an Aerith who already died and saw the Lifestream scene happen! To me this scene is the one where Aerith post death tries to say goodbye to Cloud and shut up her feelings for him.

Remake happens the way it does because it tells the story of the OG AND the Compilation. You are supposed to get hints everywhere about what happened and what's going to happen in the future, because it's a retelling of the OG. So of course we know what happened already, and the game plays with that. With Aerith losing her powers, the next game is going to be interesting to follow. The only true unknown are indeed Zack and that Sephiroth from the future, that's about it.

 

[ForceStealer]

If you want the OG, it’s still perfectly playable, friends.

Someday, in some universe, people will stop thinking this line is in any way convincing or productive.