FINAL FANTASY VII REBIRTH ANNOUNCED

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
I feel like if there was any kind of depiction of suicide in the game (a la Dyne) then that would've come up in the ratings description. Makes me wonder how they'll handle that scene.

I'd wager a guess that that's handled under the umbrella of depictions of violence, "Cutscenes depict further instances of violence, sometimes with splatters/pools of blood" ... "sometimes with slow-motion effects"

The first part covers how Dyne in the OG commits a mass shooting at Gold Saucer by gunning down a number of people and Barret gets blamed for it. However, after their 1v1 battle ends – Dyne is injured from the fight before backing away and allowing himself to fall off the cliff, so that's potentially treated as just off-screen death rather than suicide, because he was already injured and potentially dying from the aforementioned gun violence.

I'd expect it wouldn't get that leniency if their fight left Dyne uninjured but still able to come to his senses that he's too broken to remain alive without being a constant threat to everyone, and still chose to die in the exact same way but without being wounded first. In that case it'd have to overtly get rated as suicide, but it's likely got enough wiggle room that they may not have to have explicitly called it out in the rating.


X :neo:
 

cold_spirit

he/him
AKA
Alex T
Ridiculously good and lengthy interview with Kitase and Hamaguchi on the team's creative goals. It's in Italian so hopefully you have Google Translate set up to automatically translate the whole page for you.


My favorite bits:

Yoshinori Kitase : All the themes just mentioned remain the core of the game, the heart of the story. They are part of the ecosystem of the Rebirth world. For this reason they were recovered and reworked. Wanting to go into more specifics, the theme of destiny in the Remake trilogy took on a slightly different meaning. The questions that need to be asked are: how immutable is what establishes destiny? How far can we go to fight it? How much of what we do is the result of predestination? And how much isn't? Obviously to have the definitive answers to all these questions you need the complete picture, therefore all three games. However, there is another additional theme that will be explored in depth in this second chapter, and that is the bond, the relationships between the characters.

Naoki Hamaguchi : I can't give an exact percentage of the additions and elements taken from the original, otherwise fans might get the wrong idea. And I would like to avoid creating confusion. But here's what I can tell you. In the same way as the Whispers in the first chapter, which led fans to ask "what is happening here?", well... in Rebirth it is Zack who is very important. Following his story will be fundamental, until the end of this second part of the trilogy. Zack's story and the way in which he will be involved in the plot could give you a clue, an idea of how everything will evolve in the third part of the trilogy.

Naoki Hamaguchi : ... It has already been announced that the conclusion of this story will be in the Forgotten Capital. Anyone who played the original knows what Aerith's fate is. They know what awaits her. What will happen to her. Obviously I won't reveal what will happen in Rebirth, but I want to underline how important the need to create bonds is in the game. Bonds between Cloud and Aerith, and between all the other party members. We focused a lot on how the characters evolve throughout the game, not only during the main quest but also in the side missions, in which they develop their relationships.

It is no coincidence that the Synergy mechanic has also been introduced into the combat system, which symbolizes how much these characters know each other. Narration and gameplay therefore mix within the framework of a game design that tries to be as coherent as possible. And it all works together to achieve one final goal: to generate a huge emotional shock in the player when we finally find out what happens to Aerith.

Yoshinori Kitase : to the question "what is a Final Fantasy?" everyone would probably give a different answer. I believe that placing limitations on what can and cannot be a Final Fantasy greatly reduces the potential of the series. I said before that in a project like this it is very important to have the right people in the right place. After finding the one I think is the right person, I leave her free to create the final fantasy she wants. For Rebirth, for example, there is Mr. Hamaguchi here next to me.

For Final Fantasy 16, however, producer Naoki Yoshida made his choices, and created his own Final Fantasy. I think this freedom is very important, because it allows you to always add new elements to the series. If we start placing limitations, we also reduce the possibility that the direction of Final Fantasy can continue to improve. I want a Final Fantasy to be as free as possible.

Naoki Hamaguchi : My answer is a little different from Kitase-san's, however. I offer you the perspective of a director: in my case I'm not working on a new Final Fantasy, but on Final Fantasy 7. So from my perception I asked myself what is Final Fantasy 7? To explain it to you, I'll make a very Japanese comparison: Final Fantasy 7 is like a makunouchi bento, or the lunch bag you take to a sumo event. It is full of different foods, so you can experience numerous flavors. This is Final Fantasy 7: the world is full of different elements.

It doesn't just have dramatic tones or stylish characters. There is Humour, there is fun, there is a great variety of situations. Fans enjoyed Cloud riding a Segway, or Red 13 believing he is human and riding a Chocobo. This is what makes Final Fantasy 7 "Final Fantasy 7". With Rebirth we went in this direction, but we went even deeper. There are many minigames, many opportunities. That's what we're trying to do: make Rebirth more Final Fantasy 7 than Final Fantasy 7.

Hamaguchi's final line, "That's what we're trying to do: make Rebirth more Final Fantasy VII than Final Fantasy VII" is identical to what Tim Rogers said about Remake in his 2020 review:

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X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
I have to say that any time that the developers make it overtly clear that they're designing core gameplay mechanics like the Synergy Attacks (whose inception goes at least as far back as the core of the storyline in INTERmission) around a storytelling goal for making the characters' relationships with one another a core element that all of the players are going to experience in multiple ways makes me unbelievably happy. Regardless of how you feel about the system itself, this is EXACTLY how they used the DMW in Crisis Core with the whole purpose being planned to make the core of the finale more impactful. Given how Yuffie syncs up with Sonon, you could even say the same thing of that synergy mechanic in INTERmission.

The fact that it's emphasizing their relationships to one another and that's what I was going on about in my earlier tl;dr post about Vincent's & Cid's position within the party being delayed until the finale of Rebirth makes me feel like they've got an absolutely perfect handle on what they're doing with the narrative arc in this game. The added mysteries of what's going on with Zack definitely add in a different nuance to it, because that's a bond that Sephiroth, Cloud, Aerith, and to some extent Tifa all share with someone whose fate was death due to events that already occurred, and what it would mean if it were possible to subvert that.

Aerith's dialogue in the final chapters of Remake when talking about the Voices of the Planet crying out in pain was pretty clear that undoing something like that would ALSO unwrite all of the decisions and memories that every single person in the world had made past that point, and that you'd essentially be sacrificing the world everyone else currently shares for another one, along with erasing all of those memories as well. Sephiroth sees this from a perspective where he'd gladly sacrifice this world to be unmade for a Promised Land somewhere else. To echo back to foreshadowing that Elmyra made about Cloud in Remake about all the members of SOLDIER – they made a trade of a normal life for power – and you HAVE to choose one over the other, because you can't have it both ways. Cloud is repeatedly being pushed father and farther into a position where HE is going to have to choose which one of those paths he takes...

...because Sephiroth is explicitly cooperating and LETTING HIM DO THAT, so he gives Cloud the 7 seconds needed to make a choice of the world Cloud wants to have. What's more telling is that this follows EXACTLY how Sephiroth's dialogue in Dissidia FF NT said that when his & Cloud's goals align it would result in their meeting again, and even moreso that their entire confrontation in Remake starting with that sword strike is an overt mirror of the design themes in that Dissidia FF NT encounter.

The use of the Portal Materia in Ever Crisis has been overtly clear that it's impossible for anyone to retain memories of going to another "possibility" like that be it in Dissidia's setting OR in the Terrier timeline where Zack survives. This is clearly a core component to the story about Young Sephiroth in Ever Crisis where he's socially maladjusted from being raised in isolation as the "hero" face of the SOLDIER program and when asked says that the only thing he wants is, "...I just want to live a normal life." That's why before the missions he starts out asking if anyone knows about his mother, and then years later when an older Sephiroth, Zack, & Cloud arrive for the mission in Nibelheim he falls back into doing that same thing before laughing it off and giving up on the conversation – except that that's where he learned the answer he'd given up on and wantonly threw away the entire rest of the world to use his power to be able to create a new world that had what he'd never been able to as a living human test subject – a normal life with his mother.

In the case of Sephiroth, that that decision to have power was one that was made for him before he was even born, which is what makes him an Active Type SOLDIER, unlike the Passive Type SOLDIERs Glenn, Matt, & Lucia who are still just normal humans since the S & G type SOLDIER programs weren't in full effect. The same thing is true of Aerith whose life was a series of tragedies because her mother was the last of the Cetra, but who managed to escape being raised in Shinra at the cost of her mother's life. Cloud's mom died during the Nibelheim incident as a direct result of Sephiroth's actions, despite the fact that Cloud always looked up to Sephiroth as a hero thanks to Shinra using him as a marketing tool to target kids exactly like Cloud towards being recruits into their military force. Cloud is also taken as a helpless subject and turned into something against his will that allows him to play the role of being a SOLDIER like he dreamed of... but that's only the way to have the power to achieve the dream of what he ACTUALLY wanted.

Cloud grew up wanting to be included with Tifa & her friends but always felt socially detached like he was the weird one and thought she hated him. After Tifa's mom died, not only was he unable to protect her from that grief, he also didn't save her from the injury she got falling off of the bridge at Mt. Nibel. He got away with scraped knees back then, but she ended up in a coma for a week and he took the blame for it despite Tifa being the one who wandered and him just following. That's why even thinking that she wouldn't come, HE called her to the well to tell her that he was leaving to join SOLDIER and agreed to her making him promise to come help her out some day like a hero. Not just that, but one of the VERY first things that happens when Cloud starts playing the role of a SOLDIER in Remake is that he saves a girl who's stuck playing the role of the damsel in distress, and then saves himself from being injured by a collapsing bridge without needing any help.

Except that the next time he's placed into that EXACT same situation – he's left helplessly falling off of a Bridge and relying on Barret to take Tifa and escape because he's not strong enough. Then he meets Aerith again and when he doesn't leave like Elmyra asks, he immediately starts having emotional triggers to parallels from future of someone he's too weak to stop from dying. Aerith makes him stick around to save Tifa from Don Corneo rather than being stuck worrying about her by choosing to go where Cloud needs to. Then once they do and the three of them end up in the Sewers, Cloud & Tifa cross an unsteady bridge and Aerith has to jump from it as it collapses, and then almost immediately afterward when Aerith is talking about how the future isn't set in stone, she & Tifa have to save Cloud from a collapsing walkway. Cloud very clearly isn't at the point where he wants to be yet, but he's still trying to be strong enough to do it on his own.

Cloud gets emotionally disrupted when Biggs dies, and as the former big brother of the Leaf House he notices all the ways that Cloud is still EXACTLY like a kid. He keeps going and is given hope when he saves Tifa from a collapsing stairway, but then fails to save Tifa from emotional suffering like when her mom died because he fails to save Jessie – who knows that both of them are still playing roles to help other people. Then, upon failing to stop the Sector 7 collapse resulting in he & Tifa both re-experiencing a disaster leaving countless dead & losing their home again just like in Nibelheim, and Aerith being taken by Shinra as an experiment just like he was making him hyper defensive – especially after he already had a flashback about the Cetra where Sephiroth states that this Planet is his birthright, and then immediately sees Sephiroth in his head saying, "You have failed again, I see. But through suffering, you will grow strong. Isn't that what you want?"

Because that IS what Cloud wants and he has to walk through the hellish wreckage of the thousands of dead from that failure and then also tell Aerith's mom what happened because he wasn't able to make that choice for Aerith – she rejected his attempt to just quietly leave her by making her own decision, just like Cloud has to ignore Elmyra again to go save Aerith... ultimately setting her on the path where she goes along to help them. Even later on when Cloud goes up against Rufus 1 on 1 he falls and Tifa has to save HIM and tells him "You gotta to be better than this... if you're gonna play the hero." which is what he's always doing.

This beings up what the crux of that issue is in Rebirth which is that at The Temple of the Ancients, Cloud is too weak to stop Sephiroth from taking the Black Materia and his PTSD flips him into the berserk state and makes him attack Aerith. This is something I'm quite curious if/how Rebirth is going to cover, given that it is a real-world trauma response symptom of PTSD caused by when your defense mechanisms are so helpless in repeatedly failing that they flip into an inversion state to turn you against the people closest to you. This is an important detail because this trauma response is how people are able to sever ties with a narcissistic abuse dynamic filling in the place of what your family should do where rather than protect you – they just exploit you for their own benefit. This is, at its core EXACTLY what occurs to Sephiroth at the Nibelheim incident and why he becomes unrecognizable to the person he was before and turns on his friends like Zack beyond just the Shinra troops assigned with them, and the civilians he's in charge of protecting. Just like in the original game, Sephiroth wants the power to create the future, whereas Aerith is opposed because the future isn't his alone to dictate.

Even more than that, how does he do that in the face of the fact that the reason Aerith ends up at the Forgotten Capitol because she CHOOSES TO GO ALONE because he's still too weak and tells Cloud to stay and take care of himself... the same moment that gave him preemptive triggers of losing someone again because he's too weak. This is why Zack's quote at the end of Crisis Core comes in Remake back as the Planet screams about them attempting to defeat the Whispers and make a future that goes against what everyone else has influenced, "We drag our asses all this way, and this is the welcome we get. Boy, oh boy... the price of freedom is steep. Embrace your dreams. And, WHATEVER HAPPENS... protect your honor ...as a SOLDIER!"

So how does Cloud reconcile his dream of saving the people closest to him with his honor as a SOLDIER? Even though it's something he's only pretending to be, he's still put in a position where he has to make that choice. Even Advent Children is showing how despite that victory this type of trauma from loss is going to keep coming back to haunt him, and whenever it does, Sephiroth shows up to make him however strong he needs to be to overcome it because Sephiroth is just that pain and darkness constantly pulled back up from Cloud's own past – which Kingdom Hearts was pretty damned overt about when they showed up in their AC outfits.

This is where I want to mention one other critically important detail about overcoming that type of PTSD that points to the differences in Cloud & Sephiroth's relationship over time as it involves the real-world effects of someone with PTSD seeing people in hallucinations the way that Cloud does.

This happens because they don't see them as human, but regard them as being something totally alien, and terrifyingly unlike themselves.

What this does is that it causes your brain to latch on to the "Us vs. Them" survival mechanisms when there are triggers to that trauma. In Cloud's case that's typically some form of a collapsing bridge, like after the Mako Reactor No 1 explosion like when he first sees Sephiroth, but also seeing Aerith being helpless against her own fate, like when he first encounters her and Sephiroth tells him, "You're too weak to save anyone. Not even yourself." What's happening is that regardless of your previous relationship to that person (like Cloud idolizing Sephiroth and leaving to join SOLDIER because of it), because you now see that individual as something that's completely unlike you – they are the core manifestation that appears when your survival mechanisms trigger from the pattern of a learned traumatic danger. Even moreso than that, when you're in a place that you feel strongly emotional about wanting to protect from harm, they ALSO show up there even in the absence of a familiar environmental trigger because that same survival mechanism is being activated in your brain.

The weaker you feel – the most invincible, inhuman & terrifyingly alien that "them" other in your mind becomes, and they appear more frequently in hallucinations as that rift between the "us/them" gets reinforced by your survival response continually experiencing exposure to that during triggers, building up that pattern even deeper. These are all things that Remake follows when it portrays Cloud's trauma.

The way to get past this is to learn to understand the motivations and actions that caused that individual to do what they did in a way where you don't regard them as being any different than you are. Sephiroth is a damaged, socially maladjusted human experiment living in a fucked up corporate dystopia that he absolutely loathes and just wants to have friends and live a normal life where he gets to help people instead of being treated like some weird anomaly all the time like happened with his near-friends Genesis & Angeal. That's the same damage as Cloud's experiencing, and understanding that means that instead of treating Sephiroth like a "Them" when his trauma survival response gets activated, if he sees Sephiroth as an "Us" then Sephiroth can't manifest as something for Cloud to protect AGAINST when his PTSD kicks in because he's not any different.

Also, to reiterate – this is a real thing with PTSD that's detailed in accounts with Vietnam vets by Jonathan Shay – one of the people who helped to research a massive amount of what we currently know about the condition, and where this is used to make people stop seeing hallucinations that they've lived with for years.

What's important to follow-up with is that just because someone's actions are understandable and they follow a series of causal events that are relatable to what you'd go through if you were in that situation under those same stressors does NOT mean that they can be trusted as an ally. Narcissistic abuse creates survival coping mechanisms that mirror narcissistic behaviour. As I mentioned earlier with Cloud's berserk attack on Aerith, survivors who escape that type of authoritarian abusive environment have to learn to disconnect from familial ties and focus on protecting themselves because the people who are close to them are a source of harm. This means that their survival response gets positively reinforced when cutting themselves off from others – which means that they're more likely to not trust others and only see them as an unreliable temporary resource... which means that in a collective group, they are now treating others with the exact same selfishly hierarchal abuse dynamic that they needed to escape from.

This is why narcissism piles on cognitive dissonance and a rejection around not being exceptional, because they were the ONLY exceptional one who escaped from people who were more powerful than they were... and thus the cycle continues a trauma that spreads feeding on others like Vampirism creating more from everyone it encounter (much as Vincent's own trauma from not taking appropriate actions to prevent the experiment leading to Sephiroth's birth from happening in the first place has him following a lot of those same tropes explored in tragic monsters). Even in Advent Children there's Cloud feeling helpless that he and the kids he's built into his tiny pseudo family are dying from a disease he can't stop – so he cuts off because he knows he's not strong enough to lose them, but in doing so is only bringing Sephiroth back faster from being caught in that traumatic feedback loop.

This is what makes the story responsibility in Rebirth so important when it comes to everyone's bonds with one another.

Those collective social bonds are reinforced in the brain by Oxytocin because that's what makes mothers treat children as an extension of themselves to protect, and why infants don't have fear response triggered when their guardian is there to protect them. They have a shared system that alleviates pain and stress through social bonds, and that's something that still exists in adults as it's a core component in all of our social relationships and bonds to one another that allow us not to feel alone and cut off because isolation is a survival threat... Except that Oxytonic bonds are making you more amenable ONLY to the "us" group because it's a binary that ALSO strengthens massive biases against anyone in a "them" group that's a threat.

So, Rebirth is implementing integrated mechanics designed to build up to a finale of what's always been a deeply traumatic event to make you absolutely HATE someone else and want to seize any power necessary in order to extinguish their threat by obliterating them from existence to keep those people you love safe as intensely as possible.

But even if that person is objectively a threat to the world and they DO literally need to be stopped – revenge alone is an empty victory because that motivation can't prevent that from turning into a persisting trauma that never goes away.

You have to be able to understand that the intensity with which you're turning against them is EXACTLY the same intensity with which they turned against everything else. You're identical. Cloud is a Sephiroth copy. So, does he even have his own motivations? Is the correct answer to just accept Sephiroth's solution and erase this world for one where neither of them have to go through that trauma? Do you have to just accept that that type of trauma is a part of life and those deaths may have resulted from a collection of choices everyone made rather than dictating a solution? Is it evil to try and create a less fucked up world than the one that all of the horrific actions that Shinra took lead to? Is it evil to just shrug and accept that suffering even if the world literally places all of that power directly in your lap to change it somehow and didn't give you the choice to have a normal life at all?

The right answer to the question that Rebirth is going to leave us grasping at is going to be WAY more difficult than what we initially faced in Final Fantasy VII, because there's been a quarter century of research and information about what that type of trauma actually IS and how it heals than existed back in 1997. While I don't know what will or won't happen at the Forgotten Capitol – I can confidently say that given what they've done so far and what they're talking about in that interview, you should absolutely trust that they know what they're doing with this story.


(Additionally, this is why my bigger writing project won't actually solidify until the trilogy of games are complete, because while I do think I have a really good knack for speculating, it's no where near as useful as actually having the specific examples to demonstrate things in a direct analysis. Hopefully some of that gushing and whatnot will give a sense of what I've been paying attention to, though).



X :neo:
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal

cold_spirit

he/him
AKA
Alex T
For me, this is a sign that I need to start reeling in my expectations. I think there's still some wiggle room (especially in Zack's world), but yeah, not as much as I originally thought. Best to let whatever happens take me by surprise.

Bit of a bummer to see that the storytellers aren't playing the ball game that I thought they were. I have no doubt Rebirth will still be a good game. But there's a lot of good games out there. What I want is an interesting game. That's where I thought we were heading. Retellings just don't excite me, no matter how much time is put into them.

Even worse is the gaslighting and told ya so's from other fans. Like maaan, there was definitely precedent for the theories and speculation.
 
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msia2k75

Pro Adventurer
For me, this is a sign that I need to start reeling in my expectations. I think there's still some wiggle room (especially in Zack's world), but yeah, not as much as I originally thought. Best to let whatever happens take me by surprise.

Bit of a bummer to see that the storytellers aren't playing the ball game that I thought they were. I have no doubt Rebirth will still be a good game. But there's a lot of good games out there. What I want is an interesting game. That's where I thought we were heading. Retellings just don't excite me, no matter how much time is put into them.

Even worse is the gaslighting and told ya so's from other fans. Like maaan, there was definitely precedent for the theories and speculation.

Well, i think it is fair to have these expectations after the whole ghost plot in the first game...
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
What is wrong with all you people? It's lamer that the remake of final Fantasy VII will lead into the movie that is a sequel to Final Fantasy VII? Why did any of you play this to begin with? lol
Secondly, Nomura already said this months ago, it's not exactly new information.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
People getting real salty and unhinged over hearing explicit confirmation of the same, consistent message the writers have been saying for 3 years about the Remake.

Like, I can understand to some degree being disappointed your pet theory or whatever has been proven wrong. That's natural. It's human.

But get it together.

If you think an actual remake of FFVII is lame, what the hell were you even here for?

People who are truly, unironically upset and salty about this news fall into one of these 3 categories (or all simultaneously).

1.) Those who, for whatever reason, truly, absolutely, wished to have a different FFVII that was foreign and completely different than... the FFVII they supposedly loved and were interested in....

2.) They wanted Aerith to live no matter what the cost.

3.) They wanted FFVII to fuck up, crash and burn.

And if that was your motivating factor in this, then I'm sorry but. Sad day for you, and you shouldn't be catered to at this point. Why the fuck would you be so opposed to FFVII, being FFVII?

You wanted the new changes to amount to something? Cool. They will. It's obviously connected to whatever new recontextualized story and usage of Zack Fair that's present here in Rebirth. The only outcome for whatever these new elements they added to this, didn't have to be something completely, radically different than the actual source material this adaption is meant to draw from.

You didn't like the new changes? Okay, cool. So why the fuck would you want them to change more of the fucking story til it's no longer recognizable? Just...pragmatically speaking, if you think the new additions of the Remake are so bad... would you rather the whole ship sink or just have a weird part and still have everything else be recognizable and good like the rest of FFVII? What are you trying to do here, ruin the whole thing for everyone else so it sucks and nobody's happy??

Like, I have no patience for this petty salt over the fact that the remake of FFVII is going to align narratively with... the fucking original game it's based off of, and the canon of material that's attached to it. They've repeatedly stated, ad nauseum, that this is a new adaption of FFVII meant to draw from all of the Compilation of FFVII and connect to it. They said that it would follow the OG's story. This has been their intention from the start. If you didn't believe them, I really don't know what to say. If you think that's lame, well too bad. :monster:

Like Kitase said so succinctly. "The overall storyline, the developments, will not go wildly out in a way that will not add up to Advent Children in the end. I don't think anyone wanted that, and that's not what we're looking to create here." This communicates so clearly what their creative vision is now.

No one should have started FFVII Remake with, "wow, it'd be so cool if this was just completely fucking different than what FFVII even is!" If you did, well. Then you shouldn't be catered to! This was not what they were looking to create here, and as Kitase said, no one wanted that. This is a unique, new adaption of FFVII. But it's still ultimately FFVII. There's going to be all sorts of new shit that makes it unique, novel and mysterious. And it should always be FFVII.
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
They set up Remake to go off rail, only to confirm the train will remain on track.
They have literally said the exact opposite about going off of the rails for AGES.

They've ALWAYS stated that it's going to continue to largely follow the original story from the second that the credits of Remake started rolling and people were freaking out about it online and long before the title for Rebirth was announced.

Something that's likely worth mentioning is that there is a stark difference in the overall framework of what makes something the same story vs. a different story largely based on what you're looking at in terms of criteria. Designers generally have very different concepts of which types of things are important and which aren't. If you're any type of old school Star Wars fan, you'll know that while there is an internally exhaustive database of where all the various people and things are in the universe at any given point in time, those aren't things that the storytellers themselves are all that interested in, while to fans those are the canon elements that are oftentimes seen as the most critical in making sure that they remain internally coherent for an overarching narrative.

Another element to add to that is that those things all have a cultural influence that is very different between Japan & the West on top of that is the ways in which we work to analyze whether or not something represents a truth. In the West, the methodology used almost universally is reductivism which is breaking down information into smaller pieces in order to understand the deterministic root of the underlying truth. This is why despite Catholics, Protestants, Lutherans, Evangelicals, Episcopalians, & Baptists all ostensibly being "Christians" there is an EXTREMELY aggressive division between those groups when it comes to which one of them is representative of a core truth. This type of approach runs into extreme issues when looking at systems of deterministic chaos as well as of emergent complexity. Attempting to use a solely reductivist approach to understanding what a story is runs into the host of overly philosophical issues that you encounter when attempting to determine if a chair exists, or that the more precisely you measure the coastline of Great Britain the closer the distance gets to being infinitely long.

Now those are things that are very complex from a reductivist approach, but they're exceedingly simplified from a holistic approach, which is what the East tends to focus on in most of their traditions, including storytelling where the explicit details are inherently more flexible but the whole truth that the collection of those details represents is more critically important. One of the most significant examples of this is that Japanese Buddhism comes from a tradition where upon being brought into Japan it syncretized with vastly varied & highly localized Shinto deities and traditions, and then also eventually also got to a point where Japanese people often adopt Christian or other religious traditions as practices simultaneously – because in the East but with a very unique emphasis in Japan there is a VASTLY more pronounced emphasis on a holistic approach to understanding the truth that is collectively shared between things that have what are ultimately superficial differences.

This is a TEDx Kyoto talk that I think encapsulates this sort of thing really well while also adding in more details about the formative influence of culture and other things that lead to this distinction in Japan:


The point in addressing this is looking at what you're considering in an accurate adaptation of a story.

There was NEVER going to be a Final Fantasy VII Remake which went completely off the rails and told a radically different story, because in order to be a remake, it needs to maintain the holistic framework of Final Fantasy VII. What makes this complicated is that it's no longer a story being created in 1997, and it's a story that's being told for a different total audience some of whom also know the original story, which presents a fundamental issue. – If you are telling a story where the sense of loss and existential yearning for someone who was taken from you is central to the underlying truth of what that narrative is meant to express and represent, and that was SO impactful that it literally became the most famous example of that experience in video game HISTORY... but the audience you're telling it to expects that that fate is prewritten and a foregone conclusion that they have preemptively come to terms with – you are no longer telling the same story.

No matter how many of the tiny reductivist and nitpickingly specific details you choose to adhere to from the original, if you cannot find a means to accurately express the holistic underlying truth of that narrative about the human experience of the loss of someone that you love and the internalized rejection of that loss that drives you to do anything in your power to reclaim it – you can't retell that story accurately even if you made a perfect clone of the original.

So even before looking at the minor additions of expanding dialogue to feel more naturally human and less like a scripted play, crafting the details that never existed before like the specific tone of speech and facial expressions everyone has, or altering certain scenes so that they're within the standard requirements for releasing a game that are going to be an inherent part of the process that will happen as an emergent and collective effort from everyone working on the game – you have to be certain that you can deliver what the story MEANS in a way that remains completely true to the original narrative.

So yeah, there are Whispers crafting a fate that you have some degree of autonomy against. There are ways in which you can seemingly reverse or alter the fates of the people that you love – because those experiences and those feelings are fundamentally necessary to the emotional experience of the truth of that story just as much as all of the relationships between the individual characters are.

Who does Cloud take on a date in Gold Saucer in Final Fantasy VII? Who does Cloud have a 1 on 1 conversation with in Chapter 14 of Remake? – The person that YOUR choices lead to, because this is a narrative designed to match how your actions lens into those characters and their relationships to one another. Video games and especially RPGs are a framework for you to experience a story, not necessarily a deterministic canon with one fundamental certainty. This is why recent games like Baldur's Gate 3 are great but it's also difficult to discuss what those characters are like because the versions of those characters and who they become to one another aren't the same between individual experiences of that game because of the wide variability in choice. The characters represent a specific framework of possibility that retains a core truth to who they always are as a result of a chain of particular choices – which feels extremely real because that's a truth of what humans are like and how our relationships to one another are.

Suffice to say that this is why what any individual experience of the core "truth" of what Final Fantasy VII is and which parts of that are open to flexibility are going to be surprisingly different from person to person, and the expectations of what those constraints are will also vary rather significantly by culture as well, which means that Remake has to find a way to know that it needs to deviate and disrupt those things while also creating itself to remain true to the original game – thus still making it possible to make sense for it to lead into Advent Children.

This is totally different to how a LOT of Western "remakes" will often take a film and craft a new or radically different story that retains the reductivist elemental components from the story that remain intact while the narrative itself goes completely off the rails in a radically new direction with those characters, where the first cliffhanger makes it impossible to reach the same location as the original story and it's doing something utterly new and unexpected in order to captivate its audience.

There's nothing inherently wrong with either one of those things, and the only reason that they share the same term "remake" is that we don't have language that explicitly outlines the underlying methodology with which either type of a retelling is being made and what holistic or reductivist details that it considers to be immutably necessary in order to remain "true to the original" in a way that also satisfies the expectations of the people there to experience it. Whether that succeeds or fails is largely about how well the storytellers understand not just the material, and not even what parts of the material that the fans SAY matters to them, but what parts of the story ACTUALLY matter. Any type of designer or developer knows that listening to what people THINK matters is most often just what they have convinced themselves of and doesn't actually represent the reality of what those things are. A good example is how balancing fighting games properly sometimes has to involve actively ignoring the most dedicated and passionate members of the community, because if they don't – they're stuck fighting the symptoms not the disease. This is because those issues in fighting games where characters are more flexible are very often closer to emergent properties of a chaotic system, rather than specific cause-and-effect of a periodically deterministic one.

This is all a way to help emphasize that the Final Fantasy VII Remake Project still being able to lead to Advent Children doesn't mean that there's no mystery or that it's all definitely going to play out a specific way, and you should give up hope for something new or for the ability to have something that might seem impossible to grasp – because they're still being extremely coy about the new elements that they've included and we still don't really have any understanding what they mean in the grand scheme of things.

The only thing that matters is that Remake & Rebirth are still absolutely beholden to remaining true to the original Final Fantasy VII, which is what makes them a remake – but we don't know what the absolute boundaries of that truth are yet, nor do we know what types of new experiences this remake is still capable of giving us within the constraints of that commitment. Those are all things that are EXTREMELY exciting and should hopefully make it more compelling to what this new form of the story offers and potentially even give you a new perspective on how you see the original game's story, and what parts of that matter to you.




X :neo:
 

Odysseus

Ninja Potato
AKA
Ody
Look kids, I don't give a fuck what they said.

They did this
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And this
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And this
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And this
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And had her say this
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Had him say this
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and on and on and on.

If you don't think that's enough to justify people at least thinking things would be different, you're either an idiot or lying. If all that strikes you as "not different" from the original, I don't know what to tell you. If all that bullshit nonsense amounts to nothing, then as far as I'm concerned, that's plain old bad writing done to only keep people talking and coming back for more, and I'd feel perfectly justified in being frustrated with it.

I didn't want something crazy and totally different out of an FFVII Remake, not when it was just a hypothetical. But as far as I'm concerned, that's already what we got, and I expected it to mean something. Sorry.
 

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null

Mr. Thou
AKA
null
I feel like this whole mess could have been avoided if the devs never told us that nothing is at stake. Like, imagine if the rest of Remake was going exactly how they're planning it now, but we were all blissfully ignorant. Playing the entire series thinking all bets are off, then it just turned out to be a creative retelling of the story we all love. Would have been a hell of an experience if that illusion kept up.

On the other hand, nobody can handle a mystery these days without turning it into an IQ test. They'd throw a tantrum after their theories were proven wrong, bitch for years on end how Remake didn't take any risks, make plans to shit in Hamaguchi's onsen, etc.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
I was around in 2002 when FFX-2's teaser came out and they showed us this, after we all witnessed the ending of FFX.


Everyone went nuts speculating what the fuck could have happened to Tidus and how the previously shown dead/nonexistent main character could he have been captured by Bevelle/Zanarkand/etc, for saving Yuna, defying Yevon, etc etc.

Anyone who knows anything about what X-2 ends up being realizes that the initial sphere Yuna gets ends up being a massive red herring that belies a much deeper and greater mystery than we expect.

This is NKN's modus operandi. They're fans of David Lynch for fuck's sake. That is a huge tell.

Look kids, I don't give a fuck what they said.

Why would you not care about a consistently repeated message that's explained over and over again for 3 years? That's stated from the first FFVII-R Ultimania to every subsequent interview which explains their creative intention and purpose therein? That's straight up willful ignorance.

You've latched onto *one* potential interpretation of what their intention may have been and forgoed all other possibilities. How does that make sense?

"Unknown Journey" is clearly from perspective of the characters.

Whispers Rubrum, Viridi and Corceo are imitations of Kadaj, Loz and Yazoo based on the memories of those characters from within the memories of the Planet since they can form anyone that exists or will exist within the fate of the Planet. It was never actually them.

Of course the characters are going to talk about escaping and defying fate if the fate they perceive is the destruction and end of the Planet. From the very beginning as stated in the Remake Material Ultimania and the own retrospective on FFVII-R's chapter 18, their own interpretation of what they saw was based on the limited knowledge and understanding of what they have seen. They don't know what we the audience knows.

Remake Revisited- Chapter 18 said:
Cloud and the team do not really understand what they are seeing in the scene where they are granted memories of the future either,

Those are the stakes of the story.

And as for Zack? We don't know what the fuck is going on with Zack. That's the mystery. It's a recontexualized mystery regarding Zack going beyond him just being a mystery guy who shows up in one flashback and nowhere else. They've vastly expanded his role in the story. That's not "nothing." That's a new adaption of FFVII that follows the same story but in a different and novel way. It's obviously going to be different because of how it's set up but why would it not follow the original's story flow and lead to its same conclusion?

It's FFVII. A new remake adaption of it. Of course it all ends the same way.
 
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Lulcielid

Eyes of the Lord
AKA
Lulcy
Why would you not care about a consistently repeated message that's explained over and over again for 3 years? That's stated from the first FFVII-R Ultimania to every subsequent interview which explains their creative intention and purpose therein? That's straight up willful ignorance.
The devs/creators words are not the text, the game/work is the text. If they wanted XYZ message in their game then it should come from the game, not outside of it.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
The devs/creators words are not the text, the game/work is the text. If they wanted XYZ message in their game then it should come from the game, not outside of it.

You seriously are not trying to give me some death of the author shit, with a remake of FFVII....

That'd only make sense if that was literally the only interpretation possible in regards to what was seen part 1...

Which it isn't.

And that interpretation was only even possible with knowledge of extant material connected FFVII in the first place, so what are you even arguing?
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
If all that bullshit nonsense amounts to nothing
I don't understand why you would want them to build on something you (rightly, imo) regard as bullshit nonsense? Leaving aside the fact that they absolutely are going to build on it, even if you somehow think the fact that it remains a remake undoes that, even if they did completely abandon that...why would that be bad? Why would we want more of the worst part that's destined (heh) to be more bad writing, than sticking to the story that's actually good?
 
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null

Mr. Thou
AKA
null
I want the whispers nerfed so they can only affect minor events. Cid chews gum, the whispers smack it out of his mouth and insert a lit cigarette, etc.

I was around in 2002

I'm just picturing a tiny Makoeyes987 laying waste on alt.games.final-fantasy. JFC y'all make me feel old.


Everyone went nuts speculating what the fuck could have happened to Tidus and how the previously shown dead/nonexistent main character could he have been captured by Bevelle/Zanarkand/etc, for saving Yuna, defying Yevon, etc etc.

Anyone who knows anything about what X-2 ends up being realizes that the initial sphere Yuna gets ends up being a massive red herring that belies a much deeper and greater mystery than we expect.

This is NKN's modus operandi. They're fans of David Lynch for fuck's sake. That is a huge tell.



Why would you not care about a consistently repeated message that's explained over and over again for 3 years? That's stated from the first FFVII-R Ultimania to every subsequent interview which explains their creative intention and purpose therein? That's straight up willful ignorance.

You've latched onto *one* potential interpretation of what their intention may have been and forgoed all other possibilities. How does that make sense?

"Unknown Journey" is clearly from perspective of the characters.

Whispers Rubrum, Viridi and Corceo are imitations of Kadaj, Loz and Yazoo based on the memories of those characters from within the memories of the Planet since they can form anyone that exists or will exist within the fate of the Planet. It was never actually them.

Of course the characters are going to talk about escaping and defying fate if the fate they perceive is the destruction and end of the Planet. From the very beginning as stated in the Remake Material Ultimania and the own retrospective on FFVII-R's chapter 18, their own interpretation of what they saw was based on the limited knowledge and understanding of what they have seen. They don't know what we the audience knows.



Those are the stakes of the story.

And as for Zack? We don't know what the fuck is going on with Zack. That's the mystery. It's a recontexualized mystery regarding Zack going beyond him just being a mystery guy who shows up in one flashback and nowhere else. They've vastly expanded his role in the story. That's not "nothing." That's a new adaption of FFVII that follows the same story but in a different and novel way. It's obviously going to be different because of how it's set up but why would it not follow the original's story flow and lead to its same conclusion?

It's FFVII. A new remake adaption of it. Of course it all ends the same way.

I hope you're right. Kitase said they want to throw us off, but in a good way. Maybe this is all part of the plan. I just think being told they're trying to throw us off, but also constantly reassured that nothing will really change, is less productive than if they just kept quiet about it in the first place. Like Hamaguchi saying there's a big surprise regarding "that" scene. It's not a big surprise anymore goddamnit!
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
I want the whispers nerfed so they can only affect minor events. Cid chews gum, the whispers smack it out of his mouth and insert a lit cigarette, etc.



I'm just picturing a tiny Makoeyes987 laying waste on alt.games.final-fantasy. JFC y'all make me feel old.



I hope you're right. Kitase said they want to throw us off, but in a good way. Maybe this is all part of the plan. I just think being told they're trying to throw us off, but also constantly reassured that nothing will really change, is less productive than if they just kept quiet about it in the first place. Like Hamaguchi saying there's a big surprise regarding "that" scene. It's not a big surprise anymore goddamnit!

I mean, read what he said.

"The overall storyline, the developments, will not go wildly out in a way that will not add up to Advent Children in the end. I don't think anyone wanted that, and that's not what we're looking to create here."

This is the most explicit, clear statement yet. "The sky is blue" levels of clarify. I don't think you need to be reassured anymore at this point. :monster:

And I think the reason why they just said this is because they want expectations tempered and grounded. Clearly, there has been a large segment of the fanbase who are up in the stratosphere, particularly, a certain fan who has been harassing others to the point of absurdity, about the potential for changes in this story, and I think it's for the best to lay it out clearly what this is going to be.
 

SbevesGreatUncle

Lv. 1 Adventurer
AKA
Sbeves
I mean, read what he said.

"The overall storyline, the developments, will not go wildly out in a way that will not add up to Advent Children in the end. I don't think anyone wanted that, and that's not what we're looking to create here."

This is the most explicit, clear statement yet. "The sky is blue" levels of clarify. I don't think you need to be reassured anymore at this point. :monster:

And I think the reason why they just said this is because they want expectations tempered and grounded. Clearly, there has been a large segment of the fanbase who are up in the stratosphere, particularly, a certain fan who has been harassing others to the point of absurdity, about the potential for changes in this story, and I think it's for the best to lay it out clearly what this is going to be.
He could just be lying to make people be more surprised when Part 3 goes off the rails.
 
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