Final Fantasy XIII-2 (Spoiler Thread)

[KMS]

We would've found out if I bought Fragments Before instead. Fragments After has a Snow entry though.

I made an account just for this - these are scans of Fragments Before
5 post rule - just delete the spaces.

finalfantasy13 . livejournal . com / 8164. html

Thank you so much for the translation. I've been waiting for this for such a long time and now I can finally read it.

 

[Splintered]

Well you have your answer with the new update

Once, a small thing came to Valhalla; an unknown thing from the world where Etro had lived previously. It was the first human, whom Lindze made from the blood that Etro left behind: a petite girl of silver hair and purple eyes. Just as Bhunivelze had unconsciously created a Fal'Cie who resembled his mother, Lindzei too created the first human who was akin to a goddess (the goddess?). She had soon after died and her body rotted; only her soul and spirit (spirit meaning things like emotions, intellect, will etc) had reached Valhalla. Her spirit had fallen, becoming unstuck from her soul and scattered, leaving only her soul. Etro loved that little soul. This soul was the first entity in Valhalla that drove away her feeling of loneliness. Before long, more little things came. These were the humans that Lindzei was creating. But, they were engulfed by Valhalla's chaos and disappeared, leaving no soul or spirit. Only the first girl's soul continued to wander throughout Valhalla without ever disappearing; the only soul that differed from the others. An entity that could do naught but wander around Valhalla. As if seeing herself in this soul, Etro pitied the girl's soul and returned her to the world from whence she came saying "return to the others."

Etro felt deep affection for the souls that disappeared following their arrival. Just as humans admire flowers, just as they enjoy gazing at butterflies flutter between flowers while listening to the songs of little birds, Etro cherished these little things (the verb used here denotes loving or cherishing things that one deems lower than himself/herself). She blessed the first little thing, the girl, freely. Her soul was born again, inhabiting a new body with a new spirit. And like other humans she would return to Valhalla upon the end of her short life. But she, who was the first human, was incomplete, as one would expect, and her pure (?) soul was left behind in Valhalla. Etro returned her to the world in which she previously lived and she began her third life.

I was going to point out that Yuel was probably made in someone's image, since it's Lindzei's first but I thought it would make her in its image, considering all depictions of Lindzei are female. But looks like she was made to look like Etros.

It's not that Etros stopped her from staying dead. More like she can't, not fully. For some reason.

 

[Mwynn]

Wow. That confirms it.

As if she was not compatible with the chaos of Valhalla, no matter how many times she was born again, no matter how many times she died, she would not dissolve into Chaos, being left behind. Etro tried a great many times to return the girl to the others. She believed without a doubt that living among her friends/comrades would be something joyous for that soul. Etro would not suspect that there would be someone who would loathe this endless rebirth. She also did not expect that this girl she had favored would be the spark for war among humans. This girl, who had unexpectedly received a vantage point that exceeded time (the ability to see the future, I guess), was called a seeress and she was always in the center of war. No matter how many times she was reborn, people would always be at war around her and she would always encounter hatred. Her words spurred them onward. There were always people who used her even though they did not necessarily hate her. People killed each other and much blood flowed. She lamented this and lived her life away from the public. The good will that Etro, who did not understand sadness or loneliness, showed her compelled her to grieve and isolate herself. Etro did not understand this. She could not understand this.

I must be really tired, because I laughed at the last two sentences.

 

[Arianna]

Interestingly, those translations contradict themselves. Etro was indeed lonely and sad. The paragraph posted by Mwynn says the opposite.

So, then, I wonder if Yuel's appearance is that of Mwynn as well. In that, she would also represent Etro's appearance, as well.

That said, it could also be another goddess all together (though I doubt it.)

 

[Splintered]

Interestingly, those translations contradict themselves. Etro was indeed lonely and sad. The paragraph posted by Mwynn says the opposite.

Yeah, there was an update before this that said that Etros and other fal'cie didn't have emotions. Then immediately said afterwards that she felt lonely.

Bhunivelze divided his power and created the Fal'Cie Lindzei and Fal'Cie Pulse. Etro just looked on as power, which she didn't not have, was given to Lindzei and Pulse and she saw them, in the same manner as the Paternal God, divide their power and give life to many Fal'Cie. Etro did not know why she had been shunned by Bhunivelze. Why weren't the things given to Pulse and Lindzei given to her as well? She just looked on without cursing them or envying them. Of course... Fal'Cie are different than humans; Fal'Cie do not have emotions. Etro did not understand: Why did humans naturally feel indignation or suffered feelings like alienation or isolation. Etro, who did nothing but serve as a spectator, tried to imitate their birthing of Fal'Cie by harming her own body. She thought, just as their power took on another form and became a new l'Cie, her blood would possibly give birth to something. She felt that maybe if she could bring life to something she could catch Bhunivelze's attention. Maybe if she could do the same thing as them, things would change. Even when Bhunivelze went to sleep and made his form unseen, Etro did not stop harming herself.

If Etro was human, she would have emotions, and would be able to attribute names to them thus comprehend what she was doing. Alas, she did not comprehend what she was doing or what she wanted to do.

There was a lot of drama over this because the fal'cie were clearly motivated by wanting to meet their creators. If Etros was hurting herself in hopes to make life and get Bhunivelze's attention, to the point she killed herself, then I would say that qualifies as being emotionally driven on some level.

It's convoluted but rather than not having emotions, I am just going with the interpretation that they did, but are just unable to comprehend them. They just aren't built that way. Even if they experience it, they wouldn't be able to rationalize it like humans can do. And this extends to their views on humans, human's can't objectively understand why fal'cie do what they do and vice versa.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

XIII's writing was at its best when the focus was on the human condition. Still, most of this isn't half bad -- better than most of XIII-2 itself at any rate.

As others have said, this should all have been in the game. It seems like FF is getting less willing to build up the plot during the actual game experience.

 

[Arianna]

There was a lot of drama over this because the fal'cie were clearly motivated by wanting to meet their creators. If Etros was hurting herself in hopes to make life and get Bhunivelze's attention, to the point she killed herself, then I would say that qualifies as being emotionally driven on some level.

It's convoluted but rather than not having emotions, I am just going with the interpretation that they did, but are just unable to comprehend them. They just aren't built that way. Even if they experience it, they wouldn't be able to rationalize it like humans can do. And this extends to their views on humans, human's can't objectively understand why fal'cie do what they do and vice versa.

Personally, I think they don't have their story straight. They have another writer making these stories, yes? She doesn't know the myth that Nojima wrote. That myth which all of the XIII universe is based on clearly stated that the gods - the fal'Cie - had feelings, emotions. Etro killed herself because she was lonely, sad because her father disowned her upon birth. Though, I can see it also as a cry to Bhunivelze to notice her, to embrace her.

Also, how could Barthandelus had done anything he did if it wasn't for feelings. How could Orphan - basically still an infant in at least a sense - have wanted to die, have given up, if it wasn't for feelings, emotions? So yes, the fal'Cie are living, feeling creatures. Now we weren't really privy to the feelings of the other Cocoon fal'Cie, but I do believe they were there. Their directives forbid them from following any other course, sadly.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Yeah, agreed with all of that. Either there's a subtlety of the language that's being lost in translation here or they don't have their story straight.

 

[Kuja9001]

Bhunivelze is the worst dad in the series.

 

[Mwynn]

Bah, these translations almost made me pull my hair out last night.

I'm so confused about the emotions part. I think they did have them but couldn't understand them;

If Etro was human, she would have emotions, and would be able to attribute names to them thus comprehend what she was doing. Alas, she did not comprehend what she was doing or what she wanted to do.

or that they might have imitated humans. *casually copy-pastes what she said in another website* They may not have emotions by nature, but because they looked up to human potential of doing incredible things, they may have tried imitating emotions themselves. Emotions are what drive humans into doing such things, right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yq7iCZQgaA0

Have you ever paused to consider our reason for making l’Cie of men? We fal’Cie are crafted to a single purpose, and given finite power to that end. With men it is not so. Men dream, aspire, and through indomitable force of will achieve the impossible. Your power is beyond measure.

It's the reason they gave why they made l'Cie out of humans, but it also suggests that they were jealous of them.

Also, relevant XIII Hope screencap that means so much after going through all these things:

The datalogs of the previous XIII games were designed in a way that the info added each time means that it's the info that the characters we control in-game are just finding out as well. If this is the case, since Fragments After just showed that Lightning found out these stuff through that brief moment of reaching out to Etro's throne (I just realized that they could have at least added scenes of what she was seeing during that moment (doesn't have to be clear, but at least some hazy-- urgh, anything), not leaving us dumbfounded on why she teared up in the first place), then LR's datalog should include them at the beginning of the game. I-it should.

 

[Novus]

XIII's writing was at its best when the focus was on the human condition.

I'm on another playthrough, well a broken playthrough because I probably wont have time until April (or whenever Easter is) to play again. Currently I'm on chapter three.
The line(s):

Attention Purge deportees. Attention Purge deportees. Put down your weapons and surrender immediately. Your removal is the will of the people of Cocoon. Should you attempt to flee, the Sanctum will emply every resource necessary to bring you to justice. This land is no longer your home. Cease hostilities and surrender at once.

Had the greatest effect on me so far. Not a single word was said on the state of the characters in the MarzGurl review. She just focused on the title screen and the traditional elements that make up a final fantasy game. Although I suspect you may have been commenting on scenes such as the Vanille and Hope one on Pulse.

As long as people pine for traditional game play elements over narrative depth you're not going to get them in the actual game, just the DLC that those fans who care about that sort of thing will download.

Lightning Returns thankfully lacks DLC.

 

[Novus]

I won't get excited for LR until Lindzei is confirmed.

 

[Arianna]

Well, I think I understand the discrepencies. The part where Etro 'didn't know her feelings' was an interpretation of what Etro was trying to show Lightning, and Lightning was trying to make sense of it all. It seems more like humans don't know (I say it's really 'don't respect') that the fal'Cie have feelings. It seems like humanity never tried to understand.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

In fairness to humans, the fal'Cie have been the ones with power, and the ones doing the manipulating. Having power gave the fal'Cie the responsibility to understand humanity, but they never seemed to see human beings as more than tools to use or as younger siblings they held in contempt while they were actually jealous of the free will humanity was blessed with.

 

[Arianna]

In fairness to humans, the fal'Cie have been the ones with power, and the ones doing the manipulating. Having power gave the fal'Cie the responsibility to understand humanity, but they never seemed to see human beings as more than tools to use or as younger siblings they held in contempt while they were actually jealous of the free will humanity was blessed with.

We can't speak for all fal'Cie, though. I do believe they understood humans moreso than not. As for responsibility, it goes both ways. Humans didn't seem to be too thankful for what they got. In XIII-2, the science touted by the NPCs were all taught by the fal'Cie, though humanity may have evolved it from there. Only Gran Pulse, and then only in Oerba, did it seem like anyone told a fal'Cie 'thank you' for the things provided. Really, only in XIII did a fal'Cie start to manipulate humans... Save for gathering them up, and using them to increase the population, to increase the sacrifice. Humans were left alone on Gran Pulse, and for the most part on Cocoon.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

They were used as l'Cie, though, which was a major factor in the population decline on Gran Pulse. While all fal'Cie may not have used humans, most did.

I would also wager that all of Cocoon's fal'Cie were in on the sacrifice plan. They all had the same prime directive, and Eden was sort of the CPU for Cocoon's fal'Cie, directing the others in their day-to-day operations.

While Cocoon's inhabitants were spoiled and ungrateful, the fal'Cie were godlike beings to them, and the fal'Cie presented themselves as such to humanity. The humans weren't encouraged to have any understanding for them, nor were they in a position to.

And considering that the fal'Cie were planning to literally turn the ground beneath them into a burning altar -- well, humans weren't really obligated to understand them, if you ask me.

 

[Mwynn]

And all of a sudden I am thankful that they didn't show this side of Lightning. I hope they don't in LR. I am beyond infuriated.

pg 56

For she was not human; that was the sole reason. The girl lived in the midst of sadness and isolation, and died. For she was human; that was the sole reason. Before long, time passed in the world of humans. There was a person that protected her in exchange for his life. The Goddess Etro gave him her heart, so that he may live with her forever. His name was...

"That guy! I remember. The guy with the Bahamut other than the one that guards the throne, the black Bahamut. Caius Ballad."

"Was that the guy I was fighting with? The person that I was fighting a bitter battle with. The person I was trying ever so desperately to defeat."

After Caius received Etro's heart, many moons had passed. He had waited upon many Yeuls while they were on their deathbed. So many people died, so many that he could not count. Countless souls went on their way to Etro and disappeared. Many lives were lost in the war dubbed the "War of Transgression." Many lives were on the verge of death by the hand of the Fal'Cie Barthandelus.

"That's... all me. My sin. At the hanged edge, and the Pulsian ruins, I killed PSICOM soldiers. It was easy to say that it was all to protect myself. As a matter of fact, I was desperate. They were ready and willing, pointing their guns at us. We had no choice but to counterattack in earnest as well."

However, when looking at this from the viewpoint of the Goddess, this matter seemed nothing but trivial. Etro did not make individual distinctions for people. Each soul was the same "little thing" and held the same value. Each was a life that had the right to live on the "Other Side" with its comrades for as long as it possibly could. No matter the reason for such matters, a sin is a sin. Killing people, such is a sin that one should never commit.

She heard the voices of those on the verge of death. The voices that Etro was probably hearing. The screams saying such things as "I don't want to die" and "I'm scared." On the other hand, there many in the ranks of the PSICOM soldiers who accepted death passively. They had gone to their death, resigned to the fact that they had to protect Cocoon. Those voices were very quiet.

"I took their lives."

From the Goddess viewpoint, where one can see all things in the sweep of an eye, it seemed that their lives were tangible. There were those that had a blessed life, and those that led a life that would be hard to call a happy existence. Although their pasts were different, each life held the same value. It felt as if one cast off the eyes of a lowly human and was gazing at a countless number of lives.

"I took their lives just because I didn't want to die. I felt that it was a sin, but I deluded myself, saying I had no choice. I had selfishly decided the weight of life and selfishly convinced myself of it. I didn't even stop to think that their lives were sacrificed for mine. It was all me... so sinful and arrogant."

Regardless, Etro granted Lightning's wish. To aid Vanille and Fang, and make Lightning and the others' brands disappear. Granting salvation to the l'Cie who bore much sin.*

I am upset over this. Very, very, very upset. Lightning's character has been ruined in this book.

Hey, I'm still pissed that the mythology stuff has been cut out, but I'm worried that they will show these thoughts of her as canon in LR. If they do, then she needs to undergo a character development in the game.

Self defense is not a sin. Never. This is common sense. I may still be missing something here because I'm slowly understanding why Lightning would feel this way (the soldiers were in complete belief until death that they were protecting their loved ones and Cocoon) but I'm still lost. Someone enlighten me.

I just realized we were discussing morals at school and all of this seem to fall under Kantian duty-based ethics.

I think it is natural for Lightning to feel bad, but I feel that "sin" is too much of a heavy word to use here. I can only lead this back to translation/language issues.

 

[Lex]

As far as I'm aware, killing someone is a sinful thing in any religion/society regardless of whether it's in self defence or not. You've still taken someone's life. You might have had no choice, but you've still killed a person that was probably just following orders.

Anyone who has killed and feels absolutely no regret is a heartless, soulless person - no matter how it happened. It doesn't mean Lightning wasn't doing the right thing by killing them. I'd feel pretty guilty if I'd killed as many people as she has (because early credit chip farming hello).

It really doesn't ruin anything for me.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Christianity is a little unclear on the whole matter. While the Old Testament was very much in favor of killing in self-defense, the New Testament is a tad ambiguous.

In any case, teachers of the religion today always say that a death in self-defense is justified in the eyes of God.

Anyway, this whole thing with Lightning is retarded -- if all lives hold the same value to Etro, then Etro should distinguish between an aggressor who sought to end a life and a victim that wanted to preserve a life.

 

[Mwynn]

Yeah, I don't like Etro's moral absolutism. And I don't like how she made Lightning guilt trip over this.

 

[Splintered]

Etros moral absolutionism makes sense considering she's a god and doesn't understand concepts of self defense and the value of life. It's stated that she just can't comprehend these gray areas of different issues. If she can't understand Yuel's years of suffering, then she probably wouldn't understand self defense.

Lightning should know better though. Psicom was gunning after her sister, they massacred innocent people, they forced others into exile. There was an issue that the threats were manufactured and Pscicom really believed they were fighting for the greater good(ala Yaag Rosh). But overall it was to protect her and those she loves.

The game did mention once that she felt some sort of guilt, but it was bullshit and out of place. Lightning's guilt in the first game was personal, because her actions hurt Serah, not some wider "I hurtz ppls tho," and the guilt didn't strengthen her resolve to fight. It's part of the larger reason why I think Lightning's characterization turned ridiculous.

We can't speak for all fal'Cie, though. I do believe they understood humans moreso than not. As for responsibility, it goes both ways. Humans didn't seem to be too thankful for what they got. In XIII-2, the science touted by the NPCs were all taught by the fal'Cie, though humanity may have evolved it from there. Only Gran Pulse, and then only in Oerba, did it seem like anyone told a fal'Cie 'thank you' for the things provided. Really, only in XIII did a fal'Cie start to manipulate humans... Save for gathering them up, and using them to increase the population, to increase the sacrifice. Humans were left alone on Gran Pulse, and for the most part on Cocoon.

I like the fal'cie, I think they were the better parts of the world make up in XIII. And I do think they are in the grand scheme of things, victims. But I don't think they are innocent. They were manipulative, they looked down on humanity, and they sacrificed innocent lives.

I don't think people didn't care about fal'cie feelings or disregarded them. In fact, everything points to them respecting the fal'cie. They were overdependent on the fal'cie, but that was largely by fal'cie design- they wanted humanity to be dependent, and this dependency largely stunted humanity's growth. That's what XIII-2 was celebrating, the innovation, creation, and creativity of humanity unfettered by dependency and infighting. Fal'cie might have jumpstarted their technology, but it was driven completely the way they wanted to, plus fal'cie technology was not completely compatible with their own science.

Humans were left alone on Gran Pulse, and for the most part on Cocoon.

I liked the differences between Gran Pulse fal'cie and Cocoon, rather than treated as superior or guardians, they were more like the forces of nature. They helped in some ways, and in other ways were cruel. Nobody really questioned it, because who questions nature?

Anyway, the fal'cie weren't exactly innocent there either. It's hinted in one of the cieth stones that one of the big reasons of civilizations downfall is because the fal'cie started branding a bunch of people when they were already struggling, and that prevented them from having the numbers to bouncing back after a civil war/resource shortage.

Well, I think I understand the discrepencies. The part where Etro 'didn't know her feelings' was an interpretation of what Etro was trying to show Lightning, and Lightning was trying to make sense of it all. It seems more like humans don't know (I say it's really 'don't respect') that the fal'Cie have feelings. It seems like humanity never tried to understand.

I honestly don't think it's that humans didn't respect feelings like I said before. I just really believe that fal'cie don't respect feelings, and thus couldn't come to terms with their own. This made them susceptible to looking down on humanity, but also being manipulated.

I think what Lightning was doing was spouting exposition, so it wasn't wrong, I just think the writing was awkward. Etros "doesn't have feelings" because they don't relate to feelings like people do. When they do go through emotions, it's foreign to them. It's obvious they do have emotions, when Dysley was dying he says "Sweet release, at last" meaning that they do emotions. But before this, Dysley wanting to end his life seemed to take the more "rational-hey-this-will-make-a-better-world" rather than one driven by his own desires.

I personally think he was driven by an emotive side that he didn't fully understand towards the end, and used the logical side to rationalize it. The same with Etros, she continued to hurt herself until she died, but didn't fully recognize because it was loneliness.

And that makes sense. Fal'cie aren't humans, they were created a goal, given a limited amount of power and tools to finish this goal. The game totes that l'cies are slaves are destiny, but imo it felt that the real slaves were the fal'cie, who don't even get the courtesy of being able to reject their goal. And they have to do it forever. l'cies are given choices, fal'cie aren't, so of course they wouldn't be given emotions. Emotions would be okay for people without a fixed goal and who have free will, but make no sense for being treated like machines. So when they do begin to emote, they have no ability to comprehend them, it's not built that way.

tl;dr- humans aren't to blame for the suckage of fal'cie. It's Lindzei/Pulse Bhuni's fault.

Which also leads me to my annoyance of Lightning working for Bhuni. He started a system of slavery, which in turned made more slaves, living things forced to do something without given a choice. Etros might have fucked everything up, but she never forced anyone to do anything.

 

[Arianna]

We'll, FFXIII-2 does show a possibility of a fal'Cie disobeying his orders with te crystal fragments explaining Gogmagog. It is one thought that he began to fool around with time travel, and was consequently banished to another realm because of it. Now I don't know what the Ultimania says about this, if anything is said, but - there's a possible insight to the governing of fal'Cie.

 

[Novus]

All I remember about Gogmagog, is that it had a palette swap version which was its arch nemesis. The story goes that the palette swap had banished Gogmagog into another dimension for breaking the rules somehow.
The entire narrative of FFXIII-2 was an excuse to reuse monsters and locations. I didn't like it.

 

[Mwynn]

The phenomenon Lightning experienced must have been very overwhelming, seeing all of history and the dead souls in a matter of seconds.

I'm still bothered by Lightning working for Bhuni as well. But what choice does she have? Working with Bhuni would be the fastest way since both have the same goal. And we all know that Lightning's personality is "keep moving forward no matter what".

 

[Arianna]

Self defense is not a sin. Never. This is common sense. I may still be missing something here because I'm slowly understanding why Lightning would feel this way (the soldiers were in complete belief until death that they were protecting their loved ones and Cocoon) but I'm still lost. Someone enlighten me.

I find that taking a life, even that of a 'lesser life form' (not so to me, but, for some, all non-human life) is a serious matter. I look at it this way: You better have a damn good reason for murder, because that's what you've done. I pray for all life, even insects, and I'm not trying to place myself above others; and, I pray because all life has souls, and at times I have ended lives (insects, accidentally hit a bird (though I swear sometimes those sparrows are Kami Kazi!), nothing insidious.)