Final Fantasy XIII Non-Spoiler Thread

[DrakeClawfang]

No they often change equipment when you go back at a later part of the game.

In FF6 specifically, yes they do, when the plot has you revisit those places. FF4? Nope. I revisit Mysidia, sells the same stuff as before, same with Fabul, Agart, Eblan...FF5? Same deal.

Of course it does. Linear means IN A LINE. If you are exploring you are not travellng 1 path. You are beinga afforded A CHOICE. This is where accusations of "illusion" do not work. The plot is 1 thing, but you aren't FORCED to go there.

So you're saying we aren't forced to play the main plot through? I guess that's true, instead of playing the game I could just....not, I suppose. Because I'm thinking right now, I'm playing FFX and replayed FF9 not too long ago, and mostly there was one route to take between areas. And in the end, again, I'm going to the same place whether I want to or not.

You can backtrack and you can visit other places (like wutai in VII).

Ah, you speak of subquests, sidequests, optional things. Which FF13 has, and we know this.

"Suspension of disbelief"

In FF13, you're all hunted by the government and due to the l'Cie marks it's hard to hide who you are. A reviewer noted this, actually, that it makes sense that the party doesn't encounter many NPCs because they're outlaws and are hated by the public. I know you can walk around talking to people in Vector in FF6, but if your party members had the Returner logo stamped on their backs, I doubt the people would have been so forthcoming. Ditto for FF7, if Cloud's face was plastered on the side of Shinra Tower do you really think people would still chat him up on the streets at random? The occasional Avalanche sympathizer would sure, but the populace as a whole? It would stretch my suspension of disbelief if people were content to have idle conversation with known criminals and terrorists in the middle of the streets.

And BTW, I've taken drama and English and am planning to be a writer, so feel free to leave the lectures out of the debate.

Again, the series has never been THIS LINEAR. 13 is a step too far.

Depending on which fan and reviewer you talk too, "a step too far" came in FF12. And FF10. And FF9, FF8...like I said, I knew people would bitch about FF13, no matter what they did someone would be pissed off, just a matter of finding out at what.

 

[DLPB]

In FF6 specifically

I said VII, VIII, IX. There are always differences but you can't pick and choose VI and say "it has always been that way" because...it hasn't.

So you're saying we aren't forced to play the main plot through? I guess that's true, instead of playing the game I could just....not, I suppose.

In VII, VIII, IX, X, and even VI, you are allowed to choose whether you want to progress, to grind, to speak to NPC, to backtrack to explore, to do sidequests. All of which have been seriously cut back or removed in XIII.

Because I'm thinking right now, I'm playing FFX and replayed FF9 not too long ago, and mostly there was one route to take between areas. And in the end, again, I'm going to the same place whether I want to or not.

The main plot is one thing, but exploration is another as is the ability to choose whether to carry on with that plot, to backtrack, to revisit areas or shops. Main plot is always forced but that is the "partly linear" argument I am making vs XIII "totally linear". VII allowed side quests and distractions like Wutai and Gold saucer, VIII and IX had cards and auctions and friends quests (and numerous others)....what is there in XIII besides more fighting?

Ah, you speak of subquests, sidequests, optional things. Which FF13 has, and we know this.

According to all the people I have spoke to its merely more fighting and the totally linear nature is around for half the game or more...

A reviewer noted this, actually, that it makes sense that the party doesn't encounter many NPCs because they're outlaws and are hated by the public.

Using a plot element to erradicate NPC is not a good excuse.

Ditto for FF7, if Cloud's face was plastered on the side of Shinra Tower do you really think people would still chat him up on the streets at random?

Yes, that is how game plots work. The game simply pretends often that your character is anyone. It reflects the thoughts of the NPC at that time. Avalanche were wanted by Shin-Ra but you still talked to Soldiers.

The occasional Avalanche sympathizer would sure, but the populace as a whole? It would stretch my suspension of disbelief if people were content to have idle conversation with known criminals and terrorists in the middle of the streets.

Not when you allow for the fact that NPC are often just stating their opinions or thoughts. They aren't as literal as the main plot.

Depending on which fan and reviewer you talk too, "a step too far" came in FF12. And FF10. And FF9, FF8...like I said, I knew people would bitch about FF13, no matter what they did someone would be pissed off, just a matter of finding out at what.

13 is a step too far for anyone, as the reviewers have made abundantly clear (so much so that the devlopers reacted to it). This game has been panned for being linear more than any main release I can remember.

That is for a reason.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

I said VII, VIII, IX. There are always differences but you can't pick and choose VI and say "it has always been that way" because...it hasn't.

You'll notice I also mentioned 4 and 5.

In VII, VIII, IX, X, and even VI, you are allowed to choose whether you want to progress, to grind, to speak to NPC, to backtrack to explore, to do sidequests. All of which have been seriously cut back or removed in XIII.

The main plot is one thing, but exploration is another as is the ability to choose whether to carry on with that plot, to backtrack, to revisit areas or shops. Main plot is always forced but that is the "partly linear" argument I am making vs XIII "totally linear". VII allowed side quests and distractions like Wutai and Gold saucer, VIII and IX had cards and auctions and friends quests (and numerous others)....what is there in XIII besides more fighting?

to grind - I'm sure somehow FF13 still has battles
to speak to NPC - again, not a priority to me
to backtrack to explore - backtrack to explore places I've already been too, again not a priority. No matter how many times I went though Mt. Corel it didn't change much
to do sidequests - FF6 has pretty much no sidequests until you get the Airship, ditto for FF7 but replace airship with "Tiny Bronco". Ditto word for word in FF4, FF5. FF8 and FF9 had Triple Triad and Tetra Master, which I doubt many fans will miss. Most FF games are linear until you get an airship, when the world opens up to you. FF13 has this, I believe it was chapter 9 I read, where you get the chance to freely explore Pulse as you wish and do whatever there.

According to all the people I have spoke to its merely more fighting and the totally linear nature is around for half the game or more...

As I said, most FF games are linear until you get the airship, so again this is not new to me.

Using a plot element to erradicate NPC is not a good excuse.

Yes, that is how game plots work. The game simply pretends often that your character is anyone. It reflects the thoughts of the NPC at that time. Avalanche were wanted by Shin-Ra but you still talked to Soldiers.

Not when you allow for the fact that NPC are often just stating their opinions or thoughts. They aren't as literal as the main plot.

13 is a step too far for anyone, as the reviewers have made abundantly clear (so much so that the devlopers reacted to it). This game has been panned for being linear more than any main release I can remember.

Again, nothing new, EVERY GAME IN THE SERIES has been criticized and hated because the fans are gonna bitch no matter what type of game it is.

 

[DLPB]

None of them have been criticised as much as this game. I repeat: There is a reason for that, a reason you don't want to admit.

The devlopers have even had to defend the game over the linear criticism. When did that happen with VII, VIII, IX, X? We aren't talking about "fans" here. We are talking about professional reviewing magzines and sites like Edge and scores that are coming in with 5-7 out of 10, which is unheard of for a new release FF game.

http://www.edge-online.com/magazine/review-final-fantasy-xiii

When your party is finally operating at full capacity, there’s still more of the linear story to trudge through – and it is a trudge. The game’s producers have gone on record as saying that western audiences don’t understand this first section, but in fact we do: it’s just a bit rubbish. The first 25 hours of the game are one long corridor of palette-swapped enemies, fights that never quite find the right level of challenge, and cutscene after cutscene (after cutscene) leaving your joypad entirely idle.

You gonna tell me this is all normal language for a main review of FF?

 

[DrakeClawfang]

None of them have been criticised as much as this game. I repeat: There is a reason for that, a reason you don't want to admit.

And I've provided explanations that you've ignored while repeating the same criticisms as your last post with subtly different wording.

The devlopers have even had to defend the game over the linear criticism. When did that happen with VII, VIII, IX, X? We aren't talking about "fans" here. We are talking about professional reviewing magzines and sites like Edge and scores that are coming in with 5-7 out of 10, which is unheard of for a new release FF game.

Scores of 5-7 out of 10? That's odd, because...

1UP.com A-
Edge 5/10
Eurogamer 8/10
Famitsu 39/40
Game Informer 9.25/10
GameSpot 8.5/10
GameSpy 4.5/5
GamesRadar 10/10
GameTrailers 8.6/10
Official PlayStation Magazine (UK) 9/10
Play Magazine 7.9/10
PSM3 70%
VideoGamer.com 7/10
X-Play 4/5
Dengeki 120/100
IGN UK 8.3/10

You gonna tell me this is all normal language for a main review of FF?

Except as shown above, the Edge review is the odd review out. Seems everyone else loves it.

And once again, I've never said FF13 is not linear, or that it might not be a problem. It could be a very big problem. But to me, FF games have always been pretty linear.

EDIT - while we're quoting reviews.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/final-fantasy-xiii-review

It's worth pointing out that this one-way crawl punctuated with battles has always been the meat of Final Fantasy, with the world map acting as an elaborate but limited graphical menu in most games - Final Fantasy XII was the closest to being open-world, and even then just barely. It's the illusion of choice and exploration that's been removed - although that is an important illusion, and XIII has lost a measure of excitement and romance as a result.

 

[DLPB]

Edge 5/10 <
Eurogamer 8/10

GameSpot 8.5/10
Play Magazine 7.9/10
PSM3 70%
VideoGamer.com 7/10

IGN UK 8.3/10

I wouldn't say "they loved it" at all. FF Games receiving less than 9 for most of those are pretty rare. Go and check out what they said about VII, VIII, IX, X, and especially the latest before XIII (12)

Also note that they are some of the very biggest reviewers. Again, the devlopers had to argue the case about linear nature (please show me where they had to do that before).

 

[DLPB]

Let's not hide behind scores either. Let us see what some of them wrote:

http://uk.gamespot.com/ps3/rpg/fina...=convert&om_clk=gsupdates&tag=updates;title;1

Exceedingly linear exploration and character progression
<li class="last"> Vanille will get on your nerves in a big way.

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=237686

5-Mar-2010 Stunning and strategic, but this linear, fan-splitting RPG takes 25 hours to hit stride...

http://www.videogamer.com/xbox360/final_fantasy_13/

You can't escape the feeling that, in trimming the fat from the series, Square Enix has nicked FFXIII's bone. It's not a bad game by any stretch of the imagination; but it's too linear.

http://uk.ps3.ign.com/articles/107/1074227p1.html

Final Fantasy XIII strips away so much of what we've come to expect of a Japanese RPG that it puts forward a strong case for not being considered as one at all. Yes, it's true that the first half of the game funnels players through one long, winding path, but that overarching linearity is just one of many stark design decisions taken by a game that's ruthless in its jettisoning of some of Final Fantasy's most treasured traits. Towns are gone, non-playable characters all but exterminated and there's nothing in the way of extracurricular activity until beyond that thirty hour mark. The series' has never been truly open-ended, but Final Fantasy XIII's more stubborn than most in its insistence to stick to the script.

I am sorry, but it is time to accept the awful truth, XIII is more linear than any other FF game and has been rounded on because of that fact.

Even your own sources contradict you.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

Let's not hide behind scores either.

I'm not even reading the rest of the post. YOU'RE the one who brought up review scores, so who's hiding what now?

EDIT - Ah what the hell, read it

I am sorry, but it is time to accept the awful truth, XIII is more linear than any other FF game and has been rounded on because of that fact.

Even your own sources contradict you.

You seem to be mis-hearing me then, because I'm saying "yeah FF13 is linear, it doesn't bother me because FF has always been that way." And then oh, look at this.

The series' has never been truly open-ended, but Final Fantasy XIII's more stubborn than most in its insistence to stick to the script.

Seems some reviewers agree with me.

 

[DLPB]

The series' has never been truly open-ended, but Final Fantasy XIII's more stubborn than most in its insistence to stick to the script.

That isn't agreeing with you, it is agreeing with me. That this game is more linear than other titles. You call it an illusion. It isn't.

The reviewers back my case up that this game is a step too far. Your whole point has been that it is an illusion and all FF games have been linear (You have tried to argue all are equally as bad when they aren't).

Mine has been that this one is TOO linear and that is the reviews position also. The end.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

That isn't agreeing with you, it is agreeing with me. That this game is more linear than other titles.

I don't believe I ever said it wasn't.

You call it an illusion. It isn't.

No, you keep mishearing me. What I call is the illusion that previous games were non-linear. They weren't. So yeah, maybe FF13 takes it up a notch, doesn't mean the earlier games were open-ended and free.

 

[DLPB]

That isn't what you were arguing, when you were comparing the games with XIII.

But at least your position is now clear. Mine has always been the same. XIII is the most linear FF there has been and that isn't a good thing.

 

[ForceStealer]

First of all, I'm not sure when linear became such a terrible word, I can think of a LOT of VERY popular and well-loved games that were linear.

And you really are fooling yourselves if you think past FFs were nonlinear, you totally fell for the "illusion." As Drake has pointed out, you really think wandering through a dungeon that you've already been through really adds anything to game?

And Mako, XII was not non-linear. You could wander, but you'd just hit enemies that would completely destroy you, you couldn't uncover any additional plot or details through wandering, and if you wanted to see any new areas you HAD to go to where the story was guiding you. You didn't actually have any choice in the matter short of running in endless circles and continually talking to the same NPCs whop don't actually say anything different unless you move ahead in the linear story.

Non-linear would be like an MMO, where you can more or less do any quest in any order you want to. FF7 was pretty damn linear no matter how you slice it. You were on the world map after Midgar (which, notice, you couldn't go back to), but what could you really do? You could run around...and that's about it, you wouldn't stumble upon caves to loot like in Oblivion, you'd just wander around until you actually went to Kalm, and then crossed the Marsh, and then went to Junon (OOH! You have the choice to go to Fort Condor now or later! What freedom!) and so on...

Illusion is absolutely the right word.

 

[looneymoon]

I agree with Drake when it comes to "illusion of the non-linear." Yeah sure you have the choice to backtrack and explore stuff more thoroughly... but it's not like doing that is going to progress your game at all. I for one appreciated the "illusion of linearity" myself, but getting rid of it won't leave me completely heartbroken.

I have a sneaking suspicion that had I been more involved in the fandom prior to the release of FFXII, I would have heard a lot of complaints like "uninteresting plot" and "not enough characterization" or "lots of optional hunts/battles." It seems to me that FFXIII is maybe a sort of reaction against what people complained about in FFXII - being more story oriented. I am aware XII got good reviews but it seems like fans hate it to death (though I don't understand that myself, I love XII). I mean yeah, complaints against it are completely valid but it's still a wonderful game. One of the best in the numbered series imo. Even though the criticism is valid/makes me a little apprehensive, it's not enough for me to completely write off this game as crap just yet. At least not until I've played it

 

[DLPB]

yes but XIII has been released. Any case, I personally think accusing past FF's of being anything like XIII is grossly unfair and inaccurate.

 

[Max Payne]

All JRPGs are linear. XIII just takes it to a new extreme, at the same time offering very little in the way of content compared to past Final Fantasy games. You don't get to "free roam" until very far into the game, and your options from there are pretty limited.

That's what the issue is about. Whether that bothers you or not depends on what kind of person you are I suppose. But past FF games are hardly a justification for this turn of events. This game is it's own beast, and I'm sure you people will realise this yourselves when you play it.

 

[looneymoon]

I think what's happening now (to people of more casual awareness, like me) is that it's not being conveyed just how linear the game actually is. All JRPGs are linear to an extent, so the fact that it's linear isn't really a problem for me. The fact that people are pissed off about it worrys me a little. I don't want FF to turn into Xenosaga. But like I said, I won't bother raging until I actually experience it for myself.

but I guess then it'll be too late because Square-Enix would already have my money Ah well, I'll borrow it before I buy it.

 

[Strangelove]

I saw a video which was an interview with Kitase (I can't remember where the link was now), where IIRC he compares FFXIII to FPS games. You're taken on a fixed path and guided through the game as to where to go. With that in mind, I can see the elements from FPS or action games in FFXIII, at least in regards to how the story progresses.

Never cared for that. Again I'm apparently alone in this but I don't spend my time chatting up random NPCs that rarely tell me anything of interest. I may do it now and then, but ultimately NPCs are little more than background furniture to me.

It's not that I dislike NPC banter in games or anything. Just that all of those things (linear, no towns and few nameless NPCs) didn't keep me from enjoying this game.

 

[ForceStealer]

I don't want FF to turn into Xenosaga. But like I said, I won't bother raging until I actually experience it for myself.

...? Xenosaga? Xenosaga isn't any more or less linear than any other Final Fantasy. You can go back to any area you were before, since that seems to be a such a big deal. If you're talking about prevalence of cutscenes, that's a separate matter.

 

[Max Payne]

...? Xenosaga? Xenosaga isn't any more or less linear than any other Final Fantasy. You can go back to any area you were before, since that seems to be a such a big deal. If you're talking about prevalence of cutscenes, that's a separate matter.

I think it's pretty obvious she's referring to the movie>game aspect of Xenosaga.

Also, that comparison Kitase made kinda buggered me too. I don't want RPGs to be ANYTHING like FPS games.

 

[Strangelove]

It's not the video I saw, but says basically the same thing (and some more):

http://www.1up.com/do/previewPage?pager.offset=0&cId=3178060&p=

It says Toriyama made that comment though, so maybe I mixed the two up (I mainly listened to them, and the videos had an interpreter so both sounded the same).

Also pictures:
http://www.1up.com/flat/Features/Cover_Stories/Final_Fantasy_XIII/FFXIII_poster_01.jpg
http://www.1up.com/flat/Features/Cover_Stories/Final_Fantasy_XIII/FFXIII_poster_02.jpg

 

[Max Payne]

I think I posted that in this thread before.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

So FFXIII isn't going to be the next Mass Effect or Elder Scrolls. That's fine with me because that isn't what I was expecting.

 

[Max Payne]

It's not going to be the next FF7 either.

Sad day for fem-Clod amirite?

 

[Alex]

It's not going to be the next FF7 either.

Thank god. I'd hate for SE to ruin another franchise like they did with VII.

 

[Winter]

It's not going to be the next FF7 either.

Sad day for fem-Clod amirite?

>implying that what I look for in a Final Fantasy game is for it to be just like FFVII.

Haha, okay.