Final Fantasy XIII Non-Spoiler Thread
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Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
It's like FF fans can't understand the difference between RPGs being linear in the sense that while you're on a set track, you have a set number of side quests and shit to have "wiggle" room from the plot and exploration. You've got a game like that...
And then a game that physically prevents you from exploring or even backtracking in the first place, by completely doing away with the concept to begin with.
Is the concept of linearity of varying degrees, completely lost to some people? No shit. An RPG IS linear by its very nature. It's not a damn MMORPG. You WILL eventually hit the end, and you WILL go where the plot dictates. But there's a difference between being able to freely backtrack, explore, and break sequence in certain aspects of the plot, and being thrust into a narrow corridor of battles, and cutscenes, until you make it to the end of the chapter, where you then are unable to proceed where you were before. The sheer amount of strawmaning and excuses to the simple fact that FFXIII is the most linear of the series, is silly.
Let it be fucking known from this point on:
No one's saying JRPGS are NOT linear. They are. We know this.
It's the fact FFXIII is the most linear we've gotten so far, and has sacrificed so much content, freedom, and exploration at the expense of said linearity..while also offering absolutely no player interaction with the game outside of battle, that people are criticizing it. It's been stripped down. They literally took all the flesh, meat, and content of an FF and reduced it to its bare essentials. Namely the story, the battles, and the cutscenes. You've got vestigial RPG elements, a few chocobos and mascots, and that's it. It's like FFXIII is a skeleton of what a Final Fantasy is. Why am I paying for a stripped FF on a next gen console, when the format makes itself perfect to have one of the most expansive and content filled games of the series?
Quit trying to mask the legitimacy of the complaint by saying all JRPGs are linear. That's obvious. However, are there not varying degrees of linearity and freedom? FFXIII is on one extreme of the scale than others. And in terms of what it sacrificed to get there, it most definitely seems unjustified. Especially when it took over two years of development.
It's not an illusion. It's called not being as linear. Not all RPGs are developed the same and have the same amount of freedom. Some have more freedom than others, and FFXIII is on the far end of the "can't do shit but what we tell you side."
And then a game that physically prevents you from exploring or even backtracking in the first place, by completely doing away with the concept to begin with.
Is the concept of linearity of varying degrees, completely lost to some people? No shit. An RPG IS linear by its very nature. It's not a damn MMORPG. You WILL eventually hit the end, and you WILL go where the plot dictates. But there's a difference between being able to freely backtrack, explore, and break sequence in certain aspects of the plot, and being thrust into a narrow corridor of battles, and cutscenes, until you make it to the end of the chapter, where you then are unable to proceed where you were before. The sheer amount of strawmaning and excuses to the simple fact that FFXIII is the most linear of the series, is silly.
Let it be fucking known from this point on:
No one's saying JRPGS are NOT linear. They are. We know this.
It's the fact FFXIII is the most linear we've gotten so far, and has sacrificed so much content, freedom, and exploration at the expense of said linearity..while also offering absolutely no player interaction with the game outside of battle, that people are criticizing it. It's been stripped down. They literally took all the flesh, meat, and content of an FF and reduced it to its bare essentials. Namely the story, the battles, and the cutscenes. You've got vestigial RPG elements, a few chocobos and mascots, and that's it. It's like FFXIII is a skeleton of what a Final Fantasy is. Why am I paying for a stripped FF on a next gen console, when the format makes itself perfect to have one of the most expansive and content filled games of the series?
Quit trying to mask the legitimacy of the complaint by saying all JRPGs are linear. That's obvious. However, are there not varying degrees of linearity and freedom? FFXIII is on one extreme of the scale than others. And in terms of what it sacrificed to get there, it most definitely seems unjustified. Especially when it took over two years of development.
It's not an illusion. It's called not being as linear. Not all RPGs are developed the same and have the same amount of freedom. Some have more freedom than others, and FFXIII is on the far end of the "can't do shit but what we tell you side."
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ForceStealer
Double Growth
So how is it still the same length as other FFs? Is the story just longer? How could it be so stripped down but take the exact same amount of time as all these FFs with "wiggle room?"
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
Whoever says FFXIII has the same play time as other FF's save for maybe X either has no concept of time, or is utterly insane.
DLPB
Banned Flunky
- AKA
- Seifer Almasy, DanielReturns
When we talk about game time, we should take into account interactive and non-interactive.
For example, all the opening of dialogue in VII or watching cinematics should not be considered gameplay, same way as all those cutscenes in XIII
and of course, given that XIII has no mini quests as such and no revisiting towns for NPC or weapons or extra quests, I cannot see how it can really compare to VII...
The replay value of XIII, I am told, is pretty much 0. And then you have to look at how you are spending your time...in XIII, even the side quests are yet another load of monster hunts, so I don't think that exactly counts for rivetting entertainment either
For example, all the opening of dialogue in VII or watching cinematics should not be considered gameplay, same way as all those cutscenes in XIII
and of course, given that XIII has no mini quests as such and no revisiting towns for NPC or weapons or extra quests, I cannot see how it can really compare to VII...
The replay value of XIII, I am told, is pretty much 0. And then you have to look at how you are spending your time...in XIII, even the side quests are yet another load of monster hunts, so I don't think that exactly counts for rivetting entertainment either
DLPB
Banned Flunky
- AKA
- Seifer Almasy, DanielReturns
DrakeClawfang
The Wanderer of Time
even the side quests are yet another load of monster hunts, so I don't think that exactly counts for rivetting entertainment either
Hunts, Monster Arena, Ruby and Emerald Weapons, the Lunar Ruins and Dragon's Den called. They want to have a word with you.
Bex
fresh to death
- AKA
- Bex
Also, a majority of reviewers have scored it over 80%.
http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/ps3/finalfantasy13
So take your cherry-picked minority elsewhere pls.
http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/ps3/finalfantasy13
So take your cherry-picked minority elsewhere pls.
DLPB
Banned Flunky
- AKA
- Seifer Almasy, DanielReturns
Oh I forgot this was a forum
And as I showed earlier, scores mean nothing without showing what they are actually writing. Being in a minority (if I am) has nothing to do with how relevant an argument is, that is a logical fallacy.
Read here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum
The fact that this game is getting 85% and below by a number of influential reviewers (see below)
http://apps.metacritic.com/games/platforms/xbox360/finalfantasy13
[overall gets 83 which is low for a Final Fantasy game]
is only testament to the problem this game has. To try and suggest these problems do not exist or making poor analogies, simply will not wash. Telling people who are highlighting problems to "shut up" also won't wash.
I will keep these criticisms to the thread that paradox made, however, given that is more ontopic. I do hope you won't be telling us to shut up there. I mean...the truth is a dangerous thing...always has been.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_Galilei#Church_controversyI sometimes think fans of a particular game, when they are ignoring all logical arguments and foaming at the mouth, are modern day Churchmen. The difference is that in this case the religion is Final Fantasy.
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DLPB
Banned Flunky
- AKA
- Seifer Almasy, DanielReturns
It isn't just linearity that we have been arguing is the problem...and fapping over a game might be the issue you are having separating fact from fanboyism.
Any case, see you on the other thread
ForceStealer
Double Growth
in XIII, even the side quests are yet another load of monster hunts, so I don't think that exactly counts for rivetting entertainment either
That's funny, I believe the Hunts were pretty much what XII had and everyone freaking adored them.
You brought up scores in the first place!
Paradox said:
Mako, this is one of those things you REALLY can't argue until you've played it.
The game is reportedly about 40 hours, which is pretty damn standard for an FF. Dacon, so someone managed to beat it in 35, last time I beat FF7 I did it in 29, and i know people have done it faster than that.
Tetsujin
he/they
- AKA
- Tets
Usually, from start to finish without completing optional stuff, a playthrough of an FF game takes me around 35h.
FFXII took me the longest out of all of them though, with 50-60h (I did some excessive level grinding in-between though, something I usually never do until the end).
FFXII took me the longest out of all of them though, with 50-60h (I did some excessive level grinding in-between though, something I usually never do until the end).
DrakeClawfang
The Wanderer of Time
Any case, see you on the other thread
We accept your apology. Goodbye.
Max Payne
Banned
- AKA
- Leon S. Kennedy,Terry Bogard, The Dark Knight, Dacon, John Marston, Teal'c
There's a lot more complaining about people having a negative reaction to the changes than there are people complaining about the changes now.
Funny that. Anyway, said my piece. I didn't like all of the changes to MGS4 and RE5(13's saving grace is it doesn't butcher a decade old legacy of characters and plot though), FF XIII just follows the tradition that's been popular with big japanese games these days. If hordes of fans are willing to accept those changes, nothing I can say will really help.
XIII isn't the worst thing ever, but it definitely is a step down.
Funny that. Anyway, said my piece. I didn't like all of the changes to MGS4 and RE5(13's saving grace is it doesn't butcher a decade old legacy of characters and plot though), FF XIII just follows the tradition that's been popular with big japanese games these days. If hordes of fans are willing to accept those changes, nothing I can say will really help.
XIII isn't the worst thing ever, but it definitely is a step down.
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
1.) That's not even close to all of the side quests that are in FFXII.
2.) The hunts of FFXII are a lot more interesting than just going and killing shit. They make it a job. An integral part of the world history where you learn more about Ivalice, the people, clans and about the different species of monsters. It's more than just your usual "Go kill shit for gilz." If you're seriously going to equate the two, then you need to go look at FFXIII and its side quests. Cause its no where near as indepth or involved. That's just a fact of the game.
For one, you've played FFVII several times, so of course you'd beat it in 29. And other FFs in terms of plot and side quests, go well above the 40 hour mark. If you just zip right through the main plot without doing anything else (which isn't what you're supposed to do in the first place) of course it'd be around 40. What I want to know is, how many hours of play time the game is including its side quests. And all of what I've seen and heard makes it pretty damn quick. It parallels FFX in that regard.
Dacon said:
Exactly. It's an unnecessary, and stupid step down. It's like RE5. Yeah its alright, but is alright all that we're looking for? When the fuck did this become a franchise of mediocrity? People who bitch about other SE games and the Compilation piss vinegar and vomit rage when the games are just mediocre but suddenly its not so bad when game content, length, and hell...even the actual graphics are just shown to be painfully mediocre. Good enough.
It's the systemic loss of quality and effort in Square Enix that's just been slowly making them look bad. Their own comments on FFXIII's development, its choices, and then how haaard an FFVII remake would be, shows there's truly something wrong in their heads.
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DLPB
Banned Flunky
- AKA
- Seifer Almasy, DanielReturns
One thing I disagree about there paradox is X's sidequests and minigames...they kept me entertained for hours.
Filling sphere grid to kill penance, remiem temple, chocobo racing, dark aeons, finding the best weapons, getting the sigels and crests, like blitzball and dodging lightning and cactuar hunt...
there really was hundreds of hours of gameplay in X
Filling sphere grid to kill penance, remiem temple, chocobo racing, dark aeons, finding the best weapons, getting the sigels and crests, like blitzball and dodging lightning and cactuar hunt...
there really was hundreds of hours of gameplay in X
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Max Payne
Banned
- AKA
- Leon S. Kennedy,Terry Bogard, The Dark Knight, Dacon, John Marston, Teal'c
You know looking back on X, I think I liked it more than I realized.
Sure you were on a pretty fixed path, moreso than past FF games, but it still managed to keep a lot of what I liked about FF.
Towns, sidequests, talking to npcs, even a bit of exploration freedom. Hell I enjoyed Blitzball more than a little bit. All these things made me forget about my few niggling gripes, like a few cookie cutter characters and undeveloped plot threads. I thought FFXIII was going to turn out that way. Well, I hoped it would because it's artstyle reminded me a bit of X.
Damn. Still, I think we have a good chance of striking gold with Versus, even if it's plot does turn out to be overly complicated dribble about darkness and emo clothing. Like I said before, what I've enjoyed the most about FF games is the journey. I don't like that it seems to be getting shorter like most games these days. A couple years ago I could get weeks, sometimes months out of an RPG in gameplay, just casually playing.
Videogames these days just seem to be losing content. Even my favorite games this gen end too soon for me like Mass Effect 2 and Uncharted 2. Granted, ME2 was made in 2 years and U2 in one, but still. I wouldn't have minded an extra 6 months or year of dev time for more content.
Sure you were on a pretty fixed path, moreso than past FF games, but it still managed to keep a lot of what I liked about FF.
Towns, sidequests, talking to npcs, even a bit of exploration freedom. Hell I enjoyed Blitzball more than a little bit. All these things made me forget about my few niggling gripes, like a few cookie cutter characters and undeveloped plot threads. I thought FFXIII was going to turn out that way. Well, I hoped it would because it's artstyle reminded me a bit of X.
Damn. Still, I think we have a good chance of striking gold with Versus, even if it's plot does turn out to be overly complicated dribble about darkness and emo clothing. Like I said before, what I've enjoyed the most about FF games is the journey. I don't like that it seems to be getting shorter like most games these days. A couple years ago I could get weeks, sometimes months out of an RPG in gameplay, just casually playing.
Videogames these days just seem to be losing content. Even my favorite games this gen end too soon for me like Mass Effect 2 and Uncharted 2. Granted, ME2 was made in 2 years and U2 in one, but still. I wouldn't have minded an extra 6 months or year of dev time for more content.
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
Pretty much agreed there. X is a gem, and if XIII were like that...linear, yet not lacking in content or customization, I'd be very happy with it.
Yeah, we'll see with Versus. I never thought I'd be happy that the KH development team, and Nomura were directing it. Hopefully it won't get stripped like the main installment was. And yeah, the journey and shit is what makes the game good.
Sadly its a symptom of the business. The companies want a faster return on their investment, I'd figure.