Game of Thrones

[Hisako]

sansa

wait
what's she done so far?

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

wait
what's she done so far?

BEEN COMPLETELY FLAWLESS OK

 

[Hisako]

are we counting her screen time on both hands or what

i do agree that danaerys in the show seems to be blowing a whole lot more hot air than she was in the books though
i don't remember this much chest-beating

 

[Ite]

The problem with the show is that they made her 'strong' before the plot allows her to use her strength. The dragons are too young to be wielded, so it doesn't make sense that she's a cocky bitch.

Also I haven't seen the episode yet but apparently Jamie is very OOC? Damn.

Edit: H'ooo fuckity, I'm pissed off.

Spoiler

What the fuck. The show totally fucked his whole character. His WHOLE character! The core of Jamie's character is in that speech he gives Cat at the end of the episode, but the speech is a complete waste of time if he is ALSO a kinslayer. Then all of his honour and conflict and basically all his merits are thrown out the goddamn window! The whole goddamn point was that he was an honourable man who has taken on the scorn of an entire world for doing the right thing, not beating his cousin to death for his own selfish gain. Arrghh what the fuck.

Also, I thought the deaths of Bran and Rickon inspire Catelyn to approach Jamie. The news of their death makes her go berserk, which is why that scene was tense in the books. You didn't know if her mad passion was going to make her free Jamie or kill him. The ambiguity at the end of the Cat/Jamie scene seemed totally flat, all because they wanted Bran and Rickon's death to be a punchline. So instead they make her approach him because of blah blah Karstarks and then he talks her into a rage? Because of Jon Snow? That's craziness.

Just a terribly written episode. I feel that whenever David Benioff and D. B. Weiss write an episode, they're just trolling the readers. Tell us the goddamn story, if we wanted surprises in the show we wouldn't have read the books first.

 

[Roger]

Spoiler

What the fuck. The show totally fucked his whole character. His WHOLE character! The core of Jamie's character is in that speech he gives Cat at the end of the episode, but the speech is a complete waste of time if he is ALSO a kinslayer. Then all of his honour and conflict and basically all his merits are thrown out the goddamn window! The whole goddamn point was that he was an honourable man who has taken on the scorn of an entire world for doing the right thing, not beating his cousin to death for his own selfish gain. Arrghh what the fuck.

Also, I thought the deaths of Bran and Rickon inspire Catelyn to approach Jamie. The news of their death makes her go berserk, which is why that scene was tense in the books. You didn't know if her mad passion was going to make her free Jamie or kill him. The ambiguity at the end of the Cat/Jamie scene seemed totally flat, all because they wanted Bran and Rickon's death to be a punchline. So instead they make her approach him because of blah blah Karstarks and then he talks her into a rage? Because of Jon Snow? That's craziness.

Spoiler

Jaime Lannister is not honorable man, he repeadedly says to hmself and other tthat he has **** for honor. He throws 7 year olds off towers, he says that knights rape and do worse all the time.

Brienne says a true knight wouldn't rape and burn villages and all that jazz but Jaime feels a true knight like him does all that and worse as they see fit. He has a code, but not doing everything to save his own skin because of the taboo of killing your kin (even though you've barely ever met them and are expected to treat them like crap anyway) would be denying who he is. And it's not like Jaime is in his right mind right now. He's malnourished, he's a beast that's good at one thing that hasn't been let loose for months.

Now, how in the hell he felt it improved his changes with the boy dead I don't get right away, they should've done more there, but that's directing, not neccesarily writing IMO.

As for Cat, I agree that this should've come after she learned her sons are dead,especially as it took the Stark bannermen a while to recapture Jaime, they would've only had to switch scenes around to make that happen. But keep in mind, the Lannister negotiator is dead, it happened in their camp. Her changes of ever getting her daughters vack through peaceful negotiation was destroyed by Jaime right then and there. I dunno if that was his intention but Jaime basically won the war with those two kills.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

Spoiler

Jaime Lannister is not honorable man, he repeadedly says to hmself and other tthat he has **** for honor. He throws 7 year olds off towers, he says that knights rape and do worse all the time.

Brienne says a true knight wouldn't rape and burn villages and all that jazz but Jaime feels a true knight like him does all that and worse as they see fit. He has a code, but not doing everything to save his own skin because of the taboo of killing your kin (even though you've barely ever met them and are expected to treat them like crap anyway) would be denying who he is. And it's not like Jaime is in his right mind right now. He's malnourished, he's a beast that's good at one thing that hasn't been let loose for months.

Now, how in the hell he felt it improved his changes with the boy dead I don't get right away, they should've done more there, but that's directing, not neccesarily writing IMO.

As for Cat, I agree that this should've come after she learned her sons are dead,especially as it took the Stark bannermen a while to recapture Jaime, they would've only had to switch scenes around to make that happen. But keep in mind, the Lannister negotiator is dead, it happened in their camp. Her changes of ever getting her daughters vack through peaceful negotiation was destroyed by Jaime right then and there. I dunno if that was his intention but Jaime basically won the war with those two kills.

Spoiler

cat's whole motivation is weird now. no one specifically told her tyrion would exchange sansa and arya for jaime, that idea was planted in her head by littlefinger. so rather than relying on tyrion's good faith, she's now relying on something littlefinger mentioned offhandedly. something the queen seemed pretty explicitly to not want to honor. so it is pretty hard to understand cat at this point

also not sure what the point of having nurse chick in this other than to make robb look even more stupid for not going for the freys. as meager as the westerling force was, it still brought something to the table. now he just looks like a complete fucking moron for love.

 

[Roger]

Spoiler

also not sure what the point of having nurse chick in this other than to make robb look even more stupid for not going for the freys. as meager as the westerling force was, it still brought something to the table. now he just looks like a complete fucking moron for love.

Spoiler

Well she's probably still Jeyne Westerling and will still bring their fake loyalty to their cause.

 

[Ⓐaron]

Re: Theon; well, yeah, he's done horrible things, that's the whole point (warning: tv tropes link). The thing is, tons of characters in this series have done horrible things. The Hound and Jaime have both killed or tried to kill kids, for example, which isn't really any different than what Theon did except that Jaime didn't succeed. But people still love both of them. Arya has killed tons of people, many of whom were just doing their jobs, and people still love her too. Just because a character has done horrible things doesn't mean their viewpoint isn't also supposed to be somewhat sympathetic.

 

[Masamune]

I don't know. I think there's a clear distinction between pushing Bran out the window and

Spoiler

killing his own cousin in cold blood.

. Attempting to kill Bran was done on the spur of the moment to protect not only Cersei but his own children as well - "the things I do for love." That is really the only immoral thing Jaime does in ASOIAF. He had Ned's men killed because his beloved brother had been falsely charged by dipshit Catelyn and taken hostage. And it turns out that killing Aerys was to

Spoiler

save everyone's neck in King's Landing.

Now, personal opinions on incest aside, Jaime isn't the monster that many would have him be. He's simply allowed himself to play the part of the dishonored knight because he knows he will never live down the stigma of killing the king. Do I think he would

Spoiler

murder his cousin in a vain attempt at escape?

Nope. And you would have to show me an equally brutal and selfish act to convince me that it was in his nature.

 

[Ⓐaron]

I guess I can sort of agree with that, but still, The Hound and Arya have both killed innocent people who weren't even particularly endangering anything of theirs, and people still love them.

 

[Zee]

Spoiler

Attempting to kill Bran was done on the spur of the moment to protect not only Cersei but his own children as well - "the things I do for love."

For Cersei, yes. For his kids? No. Jamie's POV chapters make it perfectly clear he doesn't give a shit about any of his kids -- Cersei practically has to beg him to care about Tommen.

Jamie is incredibly self centered and arrogant.

The only thing that really bothers me about him kinslaying so soon in the series is that CERSEI SHOULD BE THE ONLY FAMILY MEMBER HE KILLS IT IS KNOWN

 

[Masamune]

I guess I can sort of agree with that, but still, The Hound and Arya have both killed innocent people who weren't even particularly endangering anything of theirs, and people still love them.

Arya does what she does to survive. There's really no comparison with her and the likes of Theon, Jaime or Sandor.

Sandor displays more acts of courage and humility than Theon, saving both Loras & Sansa against the odds. You also can't help but feel sorry for him for what his own brother did to him when he was only a boy.

Theon... Taken at a young age but raised as a son by his so-called captors and granted the freedom of Winterfell and trusted like a brother during Robb's war campaign. He repaid that faith by betraying Robb and storming his former home, and then capped it off by murdering two innocent boys to satisfy his own wounded pride.

Spoiler

For Cersei, yes. For his kids? No. Jamie's POV chapters make it perfectly clear he doesn't give a shit about any of his kids -- Cersei practically has to beg him to care about Tommen.

Jamie is incredibly self centered and arrogant.

The only thing that really bothers me about him kinslaying so soon in the series is that CERSEI SHOULD BE THE ONLY FAMILY MEMBER HE KILLS IT IS KNOWN

Spoiler

Jaime is arrogant yes, but he's had to develop a thick skin over the years, with the constant sneering behind his back for breaking his oath. When all three examples of his 'worst' actions in ASOIAF are for the sake of others, I don't see how you put 'self-centered' at the forefront of his character flaws.

 

[Cthulhu]

Like I said, they should stop changing stuff (in fact, they never should have in the first place), this is just going to spiral out of control.

Speaking of, I'm pretty sure they'll just cut the battle of the Blackwater out entirely. Keep

Spoiler

Tyrion in perfect condition too

. No big chain to block ships off neither, or big scenes for Davos on the other side, or

Spoiler

giant huge fucking fire fgj

.

As it goes, I can see the series getting abandoned by fans and going WTF is this shit idgi by the non-fans and be cancelled either next season or the 4th. And when it does, I'm going to quote this paragraph and say "I told you so", because nothing is more satisfying than being right.

 

[Dana Scully]

Spoiler

For Cersei, yes. For his kids? No. Jamie's POV chapters make it perfectly clear he doesn't give a shit about any of his kids -- Cersei practically has to beg him to care about Tommen.

Jamie is incredibly self centered and arrogant.

The only thing that really bothers me about him kinslaying so soon in the series is that CERSEI SHOULD BE THE ONLY FAMILY MEMBER HE KILLS IT IS KNOWN

Spoiler

I find accusing Jaime of being a terrible father who doesn't give a shit about his own kids to be horrendously unfair. This is a guy who, according to Cersei, was there for all three of their births while Robert was off gallivanting. And then he has to sit back and pretend that they're not his children because if he acts in any way too fatherly towards them and piques suspicion they, and him, and Cersei could all be killed.

And I'm not trying to say he's the world's best dad or anything because it's true that he often acts indifferently to his kids but he's had to act indifferently to them his whole entire life. Joffrey is how old, 14? When you spend that long forcing yourself to behave in a certain way it can be very difficult to ever go back. And even with Robert's death he still can't act the father, what with incest being such a big no-no for anyone not Targaryen.

Anyways, the Jaime killing his cousin scene pisses me off purely because it's unnecessary. He's already been established as a Magnificent Bastard - as he should be - but now they're just kinda turning him into a psychopath, which will make his redemption arc that much harder to pull off with any sort of believability.

 

[Ⓐaron]

Arya does what she does to survive. There's really no comparison with her and the likes of Theon, Jaime or Sandor.

It is highly questionable whether she had to kill some of the people she killed. Let's not forget

Spoiler

she becomes a fucking assassin. Definitely not something she needs to do to survive.

Sandor displays more acts of courage and humility than Theon, saving both Loras & Sansa against the odds. You also can't help but feel sorry for him for what his own brother did to him when he was only a boy.

And Theon

Spoiler: ADWD spoiler

rescues Jeyne from her horrible torturous husband. That's not comparable to what Sandor does? Not to mention he spends over a year being tortured himself to the point where he doesn't even remember his own name. If anything, he displays arguably more courage and humility at that point in the story than Sandor does, since he has a very literal case of Stockholm syndrome and still manages to overcome it.

The idea that Theon is not supposed to be a sympathetic character is absurd. Obviously he's not supposed to be sympathetic at this point in the story, just like Jaime wasn't supposed to be a sympathetic character in book one. But like Jaime, he undergoes character development.

Theon... Taken at a young age but raised as a son by his so-called captors and granted the freedom of Winterfell and trusted like a brother during Robb's war campaign. He repaid that faith by betraying Robb and storming his former home, and then capped it off by murdering two innocent boys to satisfy his own wounded pride.

And that's why he's a jerk. But he's still a sympathetic jerk because of other things he does in the series. Not to mention that he spends the entire rest of the series feeling guilty for the actions you mentioned.

 

[Max Payne]

Jerk is kinda putting it mildly

 

[Ⓐaron]

I've been spending too much time on TV tropes to the point where their terminology for things is influencing my diction

 

[Zee]

I find accusing Jaime of being a terrible father who doesn't give a shit about his own kids to be horrendously unfair.

His actual words are "Joffery meant no more to me than a spill of seed in Cersei's cunt." and then when Cersei's like,

Spoiler

why don't you be hand of the king so you can look over tommen and be father-like so we both don't get killed, he still has this delusion that it's okay to come out with the incest because targaryens did it!! and then starts throwing a temper tantrum when cersei tells him no

 

[Dana Scully]

His actual words are "Joffery meant no more to me than a spill of seed in Cersei's cunt." and then when Cersei's like,

Spoiler

why don't you be hand of the king so you can look over tommen and be father-like so we both don't get killed, he still has this delusion that it's okay to come out with the incest because targaryens did it!! and then starts throwing a temper tantrum when cersei tells him no

Spoiler

I find it hard to blame the guy for wishing he could be open about who he loved, even if it is incest. And he had been loyal to her his entire life while she was off screwing Lancel and whatsherface - if they could be open about their relationship then he could stop that from happening. And yes coming out about it would be stupid and probably tantamount to suicide but I feel labeling it as a temper-tantrum is really underplaying just how much his relationship to Cersei meant to him.

As for Joffrey, can you really blame him for not giving a shit about him? The kid is a lost cause from page 1.

He hasn't been able to play any real role in his kids' lives since the day they were born so how would he have ever developed any real bond with them? I just think there's a big difference between fathering a kid and being a father. People accuse Jaime of being a terrible dad when he never had the chance to actually be a dad. He was pretty much nothing but a sperm-donor.

And on a kinda related tangent, one of Cersei's big things is how if she had been a man it would be so much different for her, she would have all the power. But look at Jaime, who despite being a highborn male got fucked out of ever holding lands or marriage when Aerys made him Kingsguard as an FU to Tywin, is unable to openly love Cersei or his own kids because of social and political pressures, is despised as a Kingslayer for what was arguably his most noble deed, and has only one real skill - fighting - that he loses along with his hand. Not to downplay the shit Cersei has to put up with, but at least she had her kids.

tl;dr jaime just gives me a lot of feelings

 

[Masamune]

It is highly questionable whether she had to kill some of the people she killed.

Such as?

Let's not forget

Spoiler

she becomes a fucking assassin. Definitely not something she needs to do to survive.

But does it make her equatable to Sandor or Theon? When she butchers a child in cold blood, you might have a point.

And Theon

Spoiler: ADWD spoiler

rescues Jeyne from her horrible torturous husband. That's not comparable to what Sandor does? Not to mention he spends over a year being tortured himself to the point where he doesn't even remember his own name. If anything, he displays arguably more courage and humility at that point in the story than Sandor does, since he has a very literal case of Stockholm syndrome and still manages to overcome it.

Spoiler

Did it take Sandor to hell and back before he saved Loras, Sansa and Arya?

The idea that Theon is not supposed to be a sympathetic character is absurd.

GRR Martin is a master of weaving complex, three-dimensional characters. Theon's chapters made compelling reading but I can't say I personally sympathized with them. Come on, his opening chapter starts with him being a complete and total wanker to the girl he's shagging. And it only gets worse from there. When he killed the two miller's boys that was the point of no return for me.

Obviously he's not supposed to be sympathetic at this point in the story, just like Jaime wasn't supposed to be a sympathetic character in book one. But like Jaime, he undergoes character development.

Seeing as CoK was the book where we first enter Theon's head and some of the most defining moments of his story unfold, I would object to this point. And that's not forgetting people who have sympathized with his story so far on the show.

And that's why he's a jerk. But he's still a sympathetic jerk because of other things he does in the series. Not to mention that he spends the entire rest of the series feeling guilty for the actions you mentioned.

'Jerk' doesn't even begin to cover it. He's raped, pillaged, treated women like dirt, executed villagers and his own men, and killed two little boys. You think he deserves a medal for suddenly growing a conscience over some of those deeds?

 

[Zee]

Spoiler

As for Joffrey, can you really blame him for not giving a shit about him? The kid is a lost cause from page 1.

I don't think that's a good excuse? I mean I'm not saying Joff wasn't a monster, but even still Cersei loved him and tried her best with him despite everything because he was her son.

So I don't give Jamie a free pass for not caring about his kids until they were shoved in his face.

He hasn't been able to play any real role in his kids' lives since the day they were born so how would he have ever developed any real bond with them? I just think there's a big difference between fathering a kid and being a father. People accuse Jaime of being a terrible dad when he never had the chance to actually be a dad. He was pretty much nothing but a sperm-donor.

but again, i don't see much evidence that he wanted to be anything else

idk it's not like jamie doesn't have his own shit (and i like all the lannister kids don't get me wrong) but at the same time here's disfigured tyrion and cersei born a woman both struggling for an ounce of respect in westeros while jamie flips his long luscious locks of hair with his able male body going on about how everyone hates me what a terrible burden to bear

getting his hand chopped off actually got him to start thinking instead of just swinging his sword around at least

so i don't totally hate that they had him kill someone to escape?? a big part of asoiaf is that knights are not like they are in stories; they are glorified mercenaries

anyway i think the biggest problem is more tywin hbo what are you doing tywin is not your friendly grandpa HE NEVER FUCKING SMILED EVER

 

[Ⓐaron]

Such as?

But does it make her equatable to Sandor or Theon? When she butchers a child in cold blood, you might have a point.

She kills the stableboy in the first book in cold blood purely because he might mention her presence to other people. It's a pretty flimsy excuse. The kid is plainly scared shitless and it is highly unlikely that he is going to be able to bring himself to do anything before she escapes. Granted, she's pretty plainly in a panic as well, which mitigates the circumstances somewhat, but unlike Theon, the narrative never mentions her regretting her actions later. This is a pretty frequently recurring pattern with her. Indeed, her characterisation by AFFC borders on an Ax Crazy Sociopathic Hero.

(Let's not forget that, as far as I can recall, Jaime never displays remorse for pushing Bran out a window either).

Did it take Sandor to hell and back before he saved Loras, Sansa and Arya?

Uh, yeah, that's kind of the point. Suffering changes people. His treatment at the hands of his older brother is out-and-out torture. If anything, though, the torture Sandor underwent was far less severe than Theon's, if only because Theon was tortured for a much longer period of time.

And let's not forget that Sandor contemplates raping Sansa during the Battle of the Blackwater and basically only is stopped by chance happenings.

GRR Martin is a master of weaving complex, three-dimensional characters. Theon's chapters made compelling reading but I can't say I personally sympathized with them. Come on, his opening chapter starts with him being a complete and total wanker to the girl he's shagging. And it only gets worse from there. When he killed the two miller's boys that was the point of no return for me.

Seeing as CoK was the book where we first enter Theon's head and some of the most defining moments of his story unfold, I would object to this point. And that's not forgetting people who have sympathized with his story so far on the show.

Yes, he is a complete dick in the first book in which we see his POV. I never claimed he wasn't. My point is he doesn't stay a complete dick. He changes. Radically. This is one of the major themes of Martin's work - people can change.

'Jerk' doesn't even begin to cover it. He's raped, pillaged, treated women like dirt, executed villagers and his own men, and killed two little boys. You think he deserves a medal for suddenly growing a conscience over some of those deeds?

I didn't say "he deserves a medal." My point was he doesn't deserve to be written off as a complete monster, because he isn't one (although I wouldn't argue too much with someone who claimed that his actions in A Clash of Kings were monstrous). Unlike a number of other characters in the show, he demonstrates that he has a conscience, and while a number of his actions are definitely villainous, he also has a rather large number of Pet the Dog moments in A Dance with Dragons, probably enough to make him a Type V Anti-Hero, or possibly Type IV or even Type III by the end of the book. (Alternatively, he could also possibly be considered a borderline Type II Anti-Villain).

 

[Roger]

I don't know. I think there's a clear distinction between pushing Bran out the window and

Spoiler

killing his own cousin in cold blood.

. Attempting to kill Bran was done on the spur of the moment to protect not only Cersei but his own children as well - "the things I do for love."

THIS was a spur of the moment, very desperate thing as well. And again, he's much more screwed up here then he was then. And no, I agree with Matsumoto that there's a good reason he doesn't care about his kids, but still, he did not do it for his kids. He only wanted to continue to be with Cersei there and he wants the same here. And no. Bran was an unsuspecting 7-year old, and family to the people who he was a guest to. Alton, young though he maybe is a man that went to fight a war. It was way, way worse.

He had Ned's men killed because his beloved brother had been falsely charged by dipshit Catelyn and taken hostage.

Which helps Tyrion how???

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

He had Ned's men killed because his beloved brother had been falsely charged by dipshit Catelyn and taken hostage.

how is cat a dipshit for having reasonable suspicion of tyrion due to what an old friend told her

Spoiler

so i don't totally hate that they had him kill someone to escape?? a big part of asoiaf is that knights are not like they are in stories; they are glorified mercenaries

well the thing is that i had a problem with was that he is now openly a kinslayer, which is really horrible and probably worse than his whole killing aerys is seen as

so it's pretty fuckin weird

 

[Dana Scully]

Spoiler

I don't think that's a good excuse? I mean I'm not saying Joff wasn't a monster, but even still Cersei loved him and tried her best with him despite everything because he was her son.

Spoiler

But that's kind of my point. Joffrey never really was Jaime's son. They shared DNA and really nothing else, they never had that family bond.

And yeah we don't really ever see him try to be a father but if he had tried to be more involved in his kids' lives it could have gotten them all in deep shit. I'm not trying to pass off his lack of paternal instinct as a great character trait or anything but personally I can understand why he stopped caring/didn't care much to begin with.

and idk I always felt that while outwardly Jaime had things easier than his sibs ultimately he still had just as many shitty issues to deal with.

anyway i think the biggest problem is more tywin hbo what are you doing tywin is not your friendly grandpa HE NEVER FUCKING SMILED EVER

Maybe he just never smiled at his own kids? Someone (actually it might have been you?) mentioned something like he would never treat Arya like that if she was his daughter and maybe that applies to smiling too.

I kinda like the Tywin screentime just because I like his actor and think he does a good job but yeah the characterization is quite different from how he was portrayed in the books.