Game of Thrones

[Max Payne]

maybe a spoiler thread should be made?

it has got to be getting tiresome to repeatedly tag all of your posts

 

[Ⓐaron]

Probably not a bad idea. Though since a lot of this discussion is delving into book matters, maybe it should just be moved over to the book thread.

 

[Hisako]

I kinda like the Tywin screentime just because I like his actor and think he does a good job but yeah the characterization is quite different from how he was portrayed in the books.

But is there anything different in character besides the smiling thing? I thought he was always the shrewd tactician he was in the books, stern but knowing who deserved respect. I am really enjoying the screentime Tywin gets in this series, even if it is a deviation from the books, but I didn't think his character seemed that different from the way he was in the first book.

 

[Masamune]

THIS was a spur of the moment, very desperate thing as well. And again, he's much more screwed up here then he was then.

Not really. It was a gratuitous and unnecessary act of violence that isn't really in Jaime's nature. Again, look at the other ignoble acts he's committed in the books and you can apply some moral relativism to them (saving KL, saving Cersei, wanting to avenge Tyrion). I don't believe this falls into the same bracket, as I will elaborate on below.

And no. Bran was an unsuspecting 7-year old, and family to the people who he was a guest to. Alton, young though he maybe is a man that went to fight a war. It was way, way worse.

I'm not seeing the connection. Jaime doesn't a toss about Bran's blood ties. He was simply in the wrong place at the wrong time and loose lips would have seen Jaime and Cersei sent to the gallows. Again, not condoning his actions but I understand the context of them.

Murdering his own relative, thus adding kinslayer to his list of crimes, and trying to escape a camp surrounded by Stark men... which was self-evidently pointless and seemed like a lame attempt at speeding up the plot so that we get to the part where Catelyn lets him go (this happened at Riverrun in the book). It doesn't sit well with me. It makes him look like a psychopath. Did he have to kill Alton in the first place? Apparently, the creator commentary for the episode on HBO Demand has the writers referring to Jaime as a 'monster', which suggests they don't really get his character.

Which helps Tyrion how???

That's irrelevant. Jaime acts recklessly but you can't question his intentions. Catelyn had no right to take Tyrion hostage. He wasn't going to sit back and see Tyrion murdered for a crime he committed. Again, slaughtering Ned's men might not have been the smartest move but if the Starks can take the law into their own hands, why not him?

how is cat a dipshit for having reasonable suspicion of tyrion due to what an old friend told her

Because, if you're going to arrest a member of the most powerful family in the kingdom, you'd better have more to go on than the testimony of one whoremonger, friend or no.

 

[Rumpelstiltskin]

Spoiler

The thing about Jaime is that his character does start off as a monster; he starts off in his initial scenes as being shown as the type of man who sleeps with his sister and doesn’t hesitate to throw a small child out of a window with intent to kill.

However the character progression is done two-fold, he meets Brienne and in doing so she not only changes him but he also changes her.

In the beginning it shows how he thinks of every opportunity to kill her all the while she makes it abundantly clear she thinks him lower than mud with shit for honour.
The moment he loses his arm however he stops calling Brienne “wench” and starts to see her as an equal of sorts and even risks his own life to save her.

I think the moment where he and Brienne speak of the truth of why he killed the king is a great moment; it appears like she is genuinely the first person he has ever told the truth to about what happened. He has essentially lived his entire life from that point onward believing himself to be the villain that he was portrayed to be and essentially seen the label of kingslayer as a shield of sorts.

The moment he tells Brienne the truth she stops calling him kingslayer and looks at him as an honourable knight. In truth I believe Jaime and Brienne changed each other for the better, before their meeting Brienne thought only of honour and was notably naive when dealing with others who she believed would hold honour in as high regard as she did.
After she departs kings landing she holds Jaime in as high regard as she did Catelyn and Renly even noting the awe she was in when looking at the sword that she was given.

By the time your into AFFC Jaime actually appears like a proper knight and you see Brienne learning to distrust others in order to maintain her own agenda so yeah it’s great character development.

Although I have to say I don’t class Theon as being a perfect example of character development. The series makes him appear more like a character to be pitied than the books do and his actions are always for greed/self satisfaction rather than being noble or acting in the best interest of others.

Personally I would have rather read about him being flayed alive by the bastard of Bolton than having any more written about him.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

Spoiler

By the time your into AFFC Jaime actually appears like a proper knight and you see Brienne learning to distrust others in order to maintain her own agenda so yeah it’s great character

Spoiler

um except she was shown to be mistrustful of others in AFFC due to entirely different reasons, namely ones that happened before she met jaime. she NEVER trusted jaime, and that was the thing. what she learned from jaime wasn't to mistrust others, but that some rough people actually have good intentions (jaime, in the end, crabb, etc.)

Because, if you're going to arrest a member of the most powerful family in the kingdom, you'd better have more to go on than the testimony of one whoremonger, friend or no.

considering the actual culprit is honestly, completely untouchable and only well known by his immediate family, even taking in tyrion to question isn't a terrible idea

to blame the entire war on cat is stupid. honestly, it'd make more sense to blame lyanna, cause if robert hadn't been so enamored of her, he wouldn't have insulted cersei who in turn, would not have had revenge babies with jaime, they would probably have not continued having sex, bran wouldn't have caught them, he would not have been crippled and tommen could outlaw beets.

 

[Roger]

Not really. It was a gratuitous and unnecessary act of violence that isn't really in Jaime's nature. Again, look at the other ignoble acts he's committed in the books and you can apply some moral relativism to them (saving KL, saving Cersei, wanting to avenge Tyrion). I don't believe this falls into the same bracket, as I will elaborate on below.

Because it didn't work. A poor plan is better then no plan. He had little in the way of options.

I'm not seeing the connection. Jaime doesn't a toss about Bran's blood ties. He was simply in the wrong place at the wrong time and loose lips would have seen Jaime and Cersei sent to the gallows. Again, not condoning his actions but I understand the context of them.

I was talking about the guestright, the breach of which stands on similiar ground as kinslaying as a sin in the faith of the Seven. And even Cersei felt it was entirely unneccesary to just murder him over it, he could have easily been silenced.

Murdering his own relative, thus adding kinslayer to his list of crimes, and trying to escape a camp surrounded by Stark men... which was self-evidently pointless and seemed like a lame attempt at speeding up the plot so that we get to the part where Catelyn lets him go (this happened at Riverrun in the book). It doesn't sit well with me. It makes him look like a psychopath. Did he have to kill Alton in the first place? Apparently, the creator commentary for the episode on HBO Demand has the writers referring to Jaime as a 'monster', which suggests they don't really get his character.

I get the complaint that was selfevidently pointless and just a way to drive Cateln in tight spot, but that's tv. stupid tv logic doesn't equal us actually being asked to see him as psychopath.

That's irrelevant. Jaime acts recklessly but you can't question his intentions. Catelyn had no right to take Tyrion hostage.

Jaime had no idea that Catelyn acted alone, Eddard informed him it was done under the orders of the Hand of the King (which makes it as lawful as anything), then he has Eddards men butchered.

He wasn't going to sit back and see Tyrion murdered for a crime he committed. Again, slaughtering Ned's men might not have been the smartest move but if the Starks can take the law into their own hands, why not him?

Killing random bannermen accomplishes exactly as much as sitting back, if not less in the way of improving Tyrions chances and again Ned Starks isn't just any old civilian that went vigilante, he's the Hand of the King and Lord-Protector of the North, Lord of Winterfell and Cat is Lady of Winterfell. It is entirely their responsibilty to bring Bran's assailant to justice.

Because, if you're going to arrest a member of the most powerful family in the kingdom, you'd better have more to go on than the testimony of one whoremonger, friend or no.

He is a appointed member of the King's small council, a lord in his own right. Calling him "one whoremonger" is ridiculously baised.

And Catelyn didn't take Tyrion because she felt like it. He pointed her out where she wasn't expected to be, with one old man to guard her. Those Riverland bannermen were reluctant enough to get involved when she questioning their loyalty in front of each other. She could make a spectacle of herself or be entirely at Tyrion's mercy. If he was the guy out to get Bran, she wouldn't have made it through the night.

 

[Ite]

Spoiler: Spoiler for Season 2 Episode 7

I think that the show's writer grossly underestimated the importance of titles in Martin's world (or any medieval setting). Killing Alton in front of everyone, earning him the 'kinslayer' title will completely change how this character is perceived by everyone in the world ever.

Absolutely Kingslayer is up there with kinslayer in terms of dishonourable conduct, but The Mad King is a little different than 'your fat aunt's kid.' The reason everyone is a dick to Jamie is because they feel horrible and guilty for agreeing with his decision to off Aerys (except Ned and Brienne). I mean, Robert pardoned him, for one of the worst sins you can commit. Because everyone knows in their dark guilty hearts that they probably would have done the same -- and that's even without knowing what Jamie knew.

And guest-right breaking is a pretty bad sin too, but a) the odds of getting caught were crazy low and b) Jamie doesn't give a shit about anyone else's house. He cares about the Lannisters. And throwing Bran from the tower was not a calculated move, killing Alton was. He looked at the situation like a tactician, was calm, still, and spoke with clarity and purpose. And then he brutalized and murdered his own kin. For an unlikely chance of escape. I don't see how this is the same as stabbing a monster to save the world or killing a kid to save his beloved.

Jamie has/had more honour than most, and two decades of scorn have made him pretty twisted, but there is no reason I can think of that he would alienate his siblings and his father by performing the act of kinslaying. At least at this point in his development.

 

[Roger]

Spoiler: Spoiler for Season 2 Episode 7

I think that the show's writer grossly underestimated the importance of titles in Martin's world (or any medieval setting). Killing Alton in front of everyone, earning him the 'kinslayer' title will completely change how this character is perceived by everyone in the world ever.

Absolutely Kingslayer is up there with kinslayer in terms of dishonourable conduct, but The Mad King is a little different than 'your fat aunt's kid.' The reason everyone is a dick to Jamie is because they feel horrible and guilty for agreeing with his decision to off Aerys (except Ned and Brienne). I mean, Robert pardoned him, for one of the worst sins you can commit. Because everyone knows in their dark guilty hearts that they probably would have done the same -- and that's even without knowing what Jamie knew.

And guest-right breaking is a pretty bad sin too, but a) the odds of getting caught were crazy low and b) Jamie doesn't give a shit about anyone else's house. He cares about the Lannisters. And throwing Bran from the tower was not a calculated move, killing Alton was. He looked at the situation like a tactician, was calm, still, and spoke with clarity and purpose. And then he brutalized and murdered his own kin. For an unlikely chance of escape. I don't see how this is the same as stabbing a monster to save the world or killing a kid to save his beloved.

Jamie has/had more honour than most, and two decades of scorn have made him pretty twisted, but there is no reason I can think of that he would alienate his siblings and his father by performing the act of kinslaying. At least at this point in his development.

I gotta say I agree, but he's not gonna get caught for this either. No way the Lannister camp has any cause to believe them when the wolves say it Jaime himself that killed the guy negotiating his trade for the Stark girls. I mean Joffrey and Tywin refuse to believe the incest thing either.

 

[Ite]

I mean Joffrey and Tywin refuse to believe the incest thing either.

Well either Tywin is the king of all self-delusion, or he's willfully ignorant. Because he totally caught those two when they were like eight, playing the hand's tourney ifyouknowwhatimean.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

i feel a bit weird about the guest right thing? because no one in particular mentions it. all instances i have heard of breaking guest right involve the host attacking guests, and you'd think that if cat caught the supposed culprit, she'd include 'breaking the tradition of guest right' among his crimes, but she doesn't.

 

[Roger]

Well either Tywin is the king of all self-delusion, or he's willfully ignorant. Because he totally caught those two when they were like eight, playing the hand's tourney ifyouknowwhatimean.

Her mother was the one that caught them, as I recall. They were seperated and locked in their bedrooms at night for a while, then their mother died, Tywin started fulfilling his duties as Hand of the King from the Rock and Jaime and Cersei were able to go back to doing each other.

i feel a bit weird about the guest right thing? because no one in particular mentions it. all instances i have heard of breaking guest right involve the host attacking guests, and you'd think that if cat caught the supposed culprit, she'd include 'breaking the tradition of guest right' among his crimes, but she doesn't.

She appointed it out against Tyrion, in the show at least, if not the books.

 

[Ite]

Her mother was the one that caught them, as I recall. They were seperated and locked in their bedrooms at night for a while, then their mother died, Tywin started fulfilling his duties as Hand of the King from the Rock and Jaime and Cersei were able to go back to doing each other.

Was that how it went? Whoops! Sorry. I remember something about their mom defending them or not being as cruel as their father towards twincest, which makes them hate Tyrion for killing her etc. but by then I was distracted by the mountainous character death happening all over the place.

Anyway, I think Tywin would be a total idiot not to know that his grandkids are incest-spawn, and he doesn't strike me as a total idiot.

 

[Ite]

Tonight's episode was a masterpiece. Best episode of the season. Why doesn't Alan Taylor do every episode? When he's at the helm, everything is gravy.

Almost every issue I have with the show was resolved tonight (notable exception: kinslayer) and they worked Ros in beautifully. Right when Cersei started smiling I was like "Oh shit it's gonna be Ros. Well done, show."

Apparently, the entire next episode focuses on the battle of King's Landing. Sweet.

 

[Masamune]

Getting pretty sick of Roose Bolton having to take his leave so Robb can have his shitty love interest.

 

[Cthulhu]

Apparently, the entire next episode focuses on the battle of King's Landing. Sweet.

They'd better not cut corners there, ffs. Or

Spoiler

keep Tyrion's faec in one piece

. And whatever else happens there, .

 

[Ite]

Getting pretty sick of Roose Bolton having to take his leave so Robb can have his shitty love interest.

That is so hilarious. Fuckin Talisa derps along into every scene she's in and all the commanders are like "Well clearly this takes precedence, we'll let you get your mack on Robb!"

 

[Cthulhu]

They fixxed the worry I had with Jon / Halfhand, so that's all good . Tyrion is also still all good, . Jeyne what's her face is still a bad idea, it was much better in the books when it was all like

Spoiler

Oh yeh hi mom i got married LoL :trollface:

all of a sudden. And Jaime x Brienne is just tr00 love, you can't deny that. They also seem(ed) of equal length, .

Next time though, they'd better

Spoiler

shave that man's head. I want gruff bearded awesome Jaime, ffs

. Bulbous also tapered.

 

[Ite]

Next time though, they'd better

Spoiler

shave that man's head. I want gruff bearded awesome Jaime, ffs

. Bulbous also tapered.

I was thinking that during his scene with Brienne. I don't think they'll do it, and I'm gonna start emotionally preparing myself for the hurt now.

 

[Masamune]

That is so hilarious. Fuckin Talisa derps along into every scene she's in and all the commanders are like "Well clearly this takes precedence, we'll let you get your mack on Robb!"

The thing is, with all these arbitrary changes they're making to Robb & Catelyn (I didn't think it was possible to make Catelyn even dumber than her original counterpart), I'm actually starting to root for Roose and

Spoiler

the Red Wedding.

ETA: Also, wtf is up with Tyrion preparing for the invasion THE DAY BEFORE IT HAPPENS. No rush or anything. Surely there would be some sort of war council called to prepare the city's defenses? Instead it's just Tyrion reading an old tome and Bronn filing his nails? It's Tyrion's ingenuity that saves King's Landing but this is gonna look like he totally lucks out.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

ETA: Also, wtf is up with Tyrion preparing for the invasion THE DAY BEFORE IT HAPPENS. No rush or anything. Surely there would be some sort of war council called to prepare the city's defenses? Instead it's just Tyrion reading an old tome and Bronn filing his nails? It's Tyrion's ingenuity that saves King's Landing but this is gonna look like he totally lucks out.

cersei's busy drinking and cackling over how smart she is

varys is busy

Spoiler

rooting for the targaryens

pycelle is rotting in a cell and being old

 

[Cthulhu]

I was thinking that during his scene with Brienne. I don't think they'll do it, and I'm gonna start emotionally preparing myself for the hurt now.

I'm already watching it paying more attention to what they changed to the bits I actually like, .

 

[Masamune]

cersei's busy drinking and cackling over how smart she is

varys is busy

Spoiler

rooting for the targaryens

pycelle is rotting in a cell and being old

Yeah but none of them would be any help in a war situation, anywayz.

I'm talking captains, guardsmen, members of the City Watch etc. Let's at least LOOK like there's an invasion to prepare for.

 

[Hisako]

Maybe they'll pull a fast one on us and do the same thing they did for the first season - do all the set-up for the epic battle and everything leading up to the actual fight, and then do a quick cut to the aftermath.

 

[Ite]

Maybe it was because I saw the show first, but looking back, even though that was the only capital-b Battle in the first book, it never seemed that important. I mean, we lost the opportunity to see a great battle on screen, but it was pretty standard battle-fare. Clash of Kings spends the entire book building up to Blackwater, it is a pivotal battle for over half of the main cast (not just Tyrion) and they got GRRM to write that episode, a whole hour devoted to the battle.

I'm a little disappointed that the "next week on GoT" clips are all at night, I remember imagining the ships sailing in broad daylight. And obviously the chain isn't there. But my hopes are high.