General writing fiction discussion thrad.

[Octo]

This is why I have never finished a fic and only manage to write odd scraps of dialogue.

Like... "The sun was setting in the west, it cast an orangey peachy beige? no not fucking beige whoever heard of a beige glow? Look you know what a fucking sunset looks like so imagine that, and imagine I've described it in an interesting way.

It was sunset ok? And there was also the sea, I should have mentioned it earlier. The sea was.....not like glass, not calm exactly....but not stormy either. Like if you looked at the sea you'd think it was slightly choppy but you wouldn't be put off going for a swim. Unless you have a phobia of water and how the hell can I be held responsible for that?

Ugh whatever ".....continues for 94 pages.

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

This is probably an immensely stupid question but, how would you folks describe the sound of footsteps on carpet? Y'know that sort of swishy, loud but muted sound it makes? Is there a word for that, or a description that isn't "swishy, loud but muted"? My brain is pretty much just shrugging and saying "I don't feckin' know, where's my tea?"

" - crunsh, crunsh - "

*writes doujinshi*

 

[Skan]

Seconding "pad." Will force you to focus on the character, not the scenery, so the writing will feel more active.

Also the way you wrote the sentence makes me think that the carpet is making sounds, not the footsteps on the carpet.

 

[Keveh Kins]

^Go raibh maith agat mo chara, passiveness is a major problem in my writing, I get too hung up on details like, well, carpets. Always end up sounding like an instruction manual. Duly noted and changed T'is much appreciated

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

This is why I have never finished a fic and only manage to write odd scraps of dialogue.

Like... "The sun was setting in the west, it cast an orangey peachy beige? no not fucking beige whoever heard of a beige glow? Look you know what a fucking sunset looks like so imagine that, and imagine I've described it in an interesting way.

It was sunset ok? And there was also the sea, I should have mentioned it earlier. The sea was.....not like glass, not calm exactly....but not stormy either. Like if you looked at the sea you'd think it was slightly choppy but you wouldn't be put off going for a swim. Unless you have a phobia of water and how the hell can I be held responsible for that?

Ugh whatever ".....continues for 94 pages.

Yeah, but you see, I would read this. Idiosyncratic first person voice gently taking the piss out of literary conventions, plus everybody is so tired of conventional descriptions they'd be all over "the sunset was like that time I spilt my tea over some crushed jammy dodgers on Mrs Wilton's orange carpet....." Plus, your writing is funny.

 

[Octo]

^You should read Count Arthur Strong's Through It All I've Always Laughed the entire thing is like that, though its meant to be an autobiography

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

Guyysssss, I need a word. If Vincent is Lucrecia's bodyguard then Lucrecia is his _____? What's the word for someone you're assigned to protect? I don't think it's "target" or "objective" in this case although I'm sure the Turks would have had a professional word for it.

 

[Super Mario]

Client.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

If he were a private bodyguard she'd be his client, but she isn't paying him herself; she's a job he's been given by his company, so I'd be inclined to call her his "assignment". I bet the Turks would have invented some slang for it, though. Off the top of my head, "bod".

"Who's your bod on this assignment, Reno?"
"The Hairy Fat One. You?"
"The Lady in Red...."

I'm sure a little thought would yield something better.

PS According to "International Spy Lingo" bodyguards are called "babysitters", so maybe "who's the baby?" would be applicable in this case?

 

[Super Mario]

I would agree to Lic's recommendations.

OT, I've been having some direction difficulties in this chapter of Distortion, I'm writing a chapter consisting of 5 characters but should I focus on building their background or the plot? The chapter started out with Interpol investigating the concerned character of the chapter, then focuses on another faction integral to the story dubbed the Criminal side of character protagonists about to meet this faction of a North Korean psychic powered spy and her time displaced friends (a raptor, a kid from the viking ages, a KGB agent from the 80's with psychic powers too and a pirate who was supposed to be executed) do I focus on their backgrounds one by one or add in the advancement of the plot + exposition of how they got there?

I ask because I've got limited amount of words left before it reaches the 50,000 word limit which is my worry. If it does, I may have to extend it to 70,000 before I end the first book.

 

[Dawnbreaker]

@Reg: Depends...how long is this story suppose to be? How much time have you spent working on the characters' backgrounds? That'll make the difference.

Re: re-purposing. Oh yeah, I do tons of that. Shuffling scenes around in a novel, or even moving a scene to another novel. Sometimes it's only a bit of dialogue or description that doesn't make the cut. Other-times, its whole chapter. And as they say: recycle!

OT: Currently working on two novels right now: The Good Soldier and Daughter of a Dark God. The first one is just a few chapters in but the second one is almost done. I've been excited about getting more of this done lately, not sure why.

Also, lately I've created a table of contents for creative writing inspiration. I already have a binder for the Godslayer world, but now I've created a section strictly for tips on plot, etc. Looking forward to filling it out and using it sometime soon.

 

[Super Mario]

It's indefinitely long, the first book covers the New York story in 2012 with time plucked folk, Aliens, eldritch gods and local folk. This chapter focuses on a spy who was mentally conditioned by north korea to slowly abandon her indoctrination and keep her new friends (and raptor pet) safe from the folks who want to exploit them, but my trouble is should I focus on plot or add more details on the group being focused at? x__x;

 

[Dawnbreaker]

In that case, I'd say go with more characterization. You've got plenty of time to set up the plot, but you'll have more success getting readers to connect with the characters if they understand and/or relate to them. I was once told that the most important part of a story is the characters, and I truly believe this to be so.

 

[Super Mario]

This will help me greatly. I tried blending the last chapter with plot and characterization with difficulty of 3 characters, but now it's 5 which I find challenging.

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

If he were a private bodyguard she'd be his client, but she isn't paying him herself; she's a job he's been given by his company, so I'd be inclined to call her his "assignment". I bet the Turks would have invented some slang for it, though. Off the top of my head, "bod".

"Who's your bod on this assignment, Reno?"
"The Hairy Fat One. You?"
"The Lady in Red...."

I'm sure a little thought would yield something better.

PS According to "International Spy Lingo" bodyguards are called "babysitters", so maybe "who's the baby?" would be applicable in this case?

Ah, heh, the context is him reflecting on how unwise it was for him to develop feelings for her because she wasn't even just a coworker, she was his ______. I think "baby" would insert all of the wrong connotations in that line of thought. xD

Someone else suggested to me "charge," but that also has somewhat unpleasant "adopted child" connotations.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

It's a funny kind of relationship, isn't it? She's the more valuable employee, and no doubt higher on the pay scale than he is, and she probably exerts a degree of official authority over him, but when it comes to her personal protection he's the one with the authority to tell her what to do.

I'd get around the problem by saying, "She wasn't just a co-worker; she was both more and less. She was in his safe-keeping; it was his duty to die for her." Or some circumlocution like that.

 

[Skan]

Yeah, but you see, I would read this. Idiosyncratic first person voice gently taking the piss out of literary conventions, plus everybody is so tired of conventional descriptions they'd be all over "the sunset was like that time I spilt my tea over some crushed jammy dodgers on Mrs Wilton's orange carpet....." Plus, your writing is funny.

Have you read Steven Brust's Vlad Taltos series?

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

It's a funny kind of relationship, isn't it? She's the more valuable employee, and no doubt higher on the pay scale than he is, and she probably exerts a degree of official authority over him, but when it comes to her personal protection he's the one with the authority to tell her what to do.

In Crisis Core, Kunsel tells Zack that members of the Science Department aren't allowed to ever leave the company because they handle so much confidential information, and I've always imagined that to be the case for the Turks as well. (In fact, if that's a rule for the scientists, I can't imagine it not being a rule for the Turks.) Funny how they have that in common. You'd almost think there might be more social overlap between those two departments, but then, the Turks probably generally see the scientists as boring and weird and the scientists probably generally see the Turks as frightening thugs.

But yeah, in terms of relationship power dynamics, I always have enjoyed that Lucrecia had the professional authority over Vincent, and I like to imagine that he enjoys that as well.

Does he have any authority to tell her what to do, though, or merely to suggest? She certainly doesn't seem willing to be told what to do, nor does he seem forceful enough to give orders. Nor does he seem comfortable with doing so the few times he tries to be assertive with her. Hmm...I'm just gonna go mull this one over.

I'd get around the problem by saying, "She wasn't just a co-worker; she was both more and less. She was in his safe-keeping; it was his duty to die for her." Or some circumlocution like that.

I was hoping to spend fewer words on it to focus on other things but I may work with all of this. Thanks!

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I may end up in hot water here, because my interpretation of TurkVincent is not a very flattering one. I definitely think she is a much stronger personality than he is, which is probably the root of the problem. She doesn't want a yes-man, she wants someone who'll give as good as he gets. Given that his job is to protect her, I imagine there are certain situations, specifically those where her safety is at risk, when his professional discretion can over-rule her decisions - "No, Dr Crescent, I cannot allow you to go back inside that burning building...." kind of thing. She probably just ignores him, though, and then he gets raked over the coals for it by Veld later.

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

I may end up in hot water here, because my interpretation of TurkVincent is not a very flattering one. I definitely think she is a much stronger personality than he is, which is probably the root of the problem. She doesn't want a yes-man, she wants someone who'll give as good as he gets. Given that his job is to protect her, I imagine there are certain situations, specifically those where her safety is at risk, when his professional discretion can over-rule her decisions - "No, Dr Crescent, I cannot allow you to go back inside that burning building...." kind of thing. She probably just ignores him, though, and then he gets raked over the coals for it by Veld later.

My interpretation of TurkVincent is not a "very flattering" one, if "flattering" is defined as "strong and perfect and flawless." I mean, love him to death, but yeah, I think the boy's a pushover. So if that's unflattering, then my interpretation of him is not flattering.

In fact, I've seen some AU stuff in which it is supposed that if Vincent hadn't had all that happen to him, he would have ended up as Turk Director instead of Veld, and I think that is just laughably nope. For one thing, Vincent doesn't have the leadership quality necessary for that position, and for another thing, when it came down to it, he chose his personal interests over the mission, so frankly he wasn't a very good Turk (if "good Turk" is defined as "stay loyal to ShinRa"). I think he was probably very skilled at what he did (after all, not all of those acrobatics and sharpshooting skills could have been the side effects of demonic transformations), but Turk Director quality? Nope. Vincent doesn't even want responsibility for the WRO troops who temporarily look to him for orders in DoC. Vincent is either a subordinate or a loner, not a leader.

However, to say that Lucrecia would have found this to be an unattractive quality has no basis in canon. She seems to enjoy toying with his submissiveness, like when she "forces" him to dance with her or tells him he's sitting in her seat. The "root of the problem" was that she caused his father's death and didn't see fit to tell him about it within a reasonable time frame.

Do you think Veld would have been Vincent's director though, all the way back then? I imagine they were equals with another Director over them.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Ha - it seems we are of one mind on Vincent, then. Whenever I see fic in which Vincent is portrayed as some kind of legend, whom all the rookie Turks aspire to be like, I shake my head and think, "Nope, he'd be more like a cautionary tale."

"Don't forget what happened to Vincent Valentine...."
"What happened, Reno?"
"Got soft, didn't he? Let his feelings get in the way of the mission. Didn't have the backbone. Let himself get pushed around."
"But what happened to him, Reno?
"He fell for a dame, kiddo. Fell hard. Let her wind him round her little finger. And then he.... let Hojo get the drop on him."
"Oh my god - "
"He let his guard down, kid. He got what he deserved."

I really love Vincent as a character, but I love him partly because he obviously wasn't a very good Turk. He had too much of a conscience. He should have become a journalist, like his creators originally planned.


You are right, Veld could not have been his Commander back in the day. They clearly knew each other since they recognize each other in Before Crisis, but someone else must have been leading the Turks in those days. The department might well have had a different character in those days, too.

 

[Roger]

Ha - it seems we are of one mind on Vincent, then. Whenever I see fic in which Vincent is portrayed as some kind of legend, whom all the rookie Turks aspire to be like, I shake my head and think, "Nope, he'd be more like a cautionary tale."

"Don't forget what happened to Vincent Valentine...."
"What happened, Reno?"
"Got soft, didn't he? Let his feelings get in the way of the mission. Didn't have the backbone. Let himself get pushed around."
"But what happened to him, Reno?
"He fell for a dame, kiddo. Fell hard. Let her wind him round her little finger. And then he.... let Hojo get the drop on him."
"Oh my god - "
"He let his guard down, kid. He got what he deserved."

I really love Vincent as a character, but I love him partly because he obviously wasn't a very good Turk. He had too much of a conscience. He should have become a journalist, like his creators originally planned.


You are right, Veld could not have been his Commander back in the day. They clearly knew each other since they recognize each other in Before Crisis, but someone else must have been leading the Turks in those days. The department might well have had a different character in those days, too.

Are you kidding me? At least Vincent fell for a collegue of a different department. He was presently her bodyguard and it became relevant because her project involved getting knocked up but compare that with Tseng, who falls in love with his preteen target causing him to delay her capture for a decade and a half, Elena who fall for her boss pretty much instantly, Rude who crushes on Tifa causing him to fail one engagement after another, Tseng again, who decides to give up on Aerith and then to just go out with afore mentioned much much younger subordinate and Cissnei who falls in love with Zack, who she works with on a whole host of different missions and eventually becomes his target as well.

Vincent was Lucretia's bodyguard, we don't see him abandon that assignment for the sake of his love. Hojo shot him because he spoke out about her probably dying. As her bodyguard, that is concern he should be raising.

Vincent is not the true professional that Reno is, but he's definitely a step up from the rest of the Turks.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

The other Turks don't let themselves get shot by Hojo.
Vincent failed to protect Lucrecia.
Tseng protected Aerith for years, unless circumstances made it impossible for him to protect her any longer.

 

[Roger]

The other Turks don't let themselves get shot by Hojo.
Vincent failed to protect Lucrecia.
Tseng protected Aerith for years, unless circumstances made it impossible for him to protect her any longer.

Indeed they wouldn't. The other Turks would've probably killed Hojo, a department head of Shinra. And Vincent only failed to protect Lucretia from herself, it's not like Hojo did any harm to her that she didn't permit. He just kept the result of the project to himself afterwards. Vincent let Lucretia and Hojo get together and have Sephiroth. He was still around at least nine months later when the baby was born. Given how screwy the timeline has become, he was still guarding them for a good few of the subsequent years (supposedly Vincent's aging has stopped for the last 23 years but Zack and Sephiroth are certainly not the same age).

He fell in love but all he did was raise objections and were overruled after which he dutifully went back to doing his job. He got himself killed because the guys he was working for were nuts.

It was not Tseng's mission to help Aerith go into hiding. He was charged with bringing her back, which he dragged his feet on for 16 years. Tseng is a better protector of his loved ones, but a awful Turk.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

What dangers did Vincent actually protect Lucrecia from?