General writing fiction discussion thrad.

[Obsidian Fire]

^^My headcanon is that the Sephiroth project happened back when Shin-Ra wasn't quite the super-company it is in the game and so they were still having to worry about rival companies and corporate espionage. It was less about protecting Lucrecia and more about making sure no one else found out about what was going on in Shin-Ra manor.

 

[Skan]

I have trouble thinking of Turk!Vincent as an experienced Turk, tbh, which is saying something considering Turks in general do not seem very competent. (They more or less "fail upwards" from BC/CC through FF7 before being demoted to comic relief in ACC. Then they fall off the face of the planet in DoC.)

I mean, I like Vincent, but as a Turk in DoC, he's a perfect example of an incompetent doormat.

Just in case I sound like I'm being too unfair though: Elena did get herself captured by Don Corneo.

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

Ha - it seems we are of one mind on Vincent, then. Whenever I see fic in which Vincent is portrayed as some kind of legend, whom all the rookie Turks aspire to be like, I shake my head and think, "Nope, he'd be more like a cautionary tale."

"Don't forget what happened to Vincent Valentine...."
"What happened, Reno?"
"Got soft, didn't he? Let his feelings get in the way of the mission. Didn't have the backbone. Let himself get pushed around."
"But what happened to him, Reno?
"He fell for a dame, kiddo. Fell hard. Let her wind him round her little finger. And then he.... let Hojo get the drop on him."
"Oh my god - "
"He let his guard down, kid. He got what he deserved."

I really love Vincent as a character, but I love him partly because he obviously wasn't a very good Turk. He had too much of a conscience. He should have become a journalist, like his creators originally planned.


You are right, Veld could not have been his Commander back in the day. They clearly knew each other since they recognize each other in Before Crisis, but someone else must have been leading the Turks in those days. The department might well have had a different character in those days, too.

I don't necessarily think they knew what happened to Vincent, until of course he spills his story to the party, including spy!Reeve, after he wakes up. I don't think Hojo dutifully filled out a report explaining that he killed the Turk on duty and locked him in the basement. I am sure he lied and said that Vincent was either killed by something/someone else or fled (the latter probably being the better choice for Hojo as it requires less explaining on his part), and that Vincent's official file had him listed as either KIA or MIA without much detail on the issue.

Of course, once Reeve learns about it post-coffin he may or may not have told the Turks then. I'm sure he would have at least informed them that Vincent was a Turk. Whether or not he included the details on Vincent's romantic drama is up for debate.

"A different character," hmm, I don't know. One thing to consider is that there was no SOLDIER, no Midgar, probably no Space Exploration Department, the Urban Planning Department was probably new (just starting work on Midgar then). Vincent refers to the company as "ShinRa Manufacturing," so they were probably still primarily known for weapons development and maybe a mako/electric company also? (Side note: How nuts is it that they have a department for Space Exploration but no separate department for Energy, the thing they mostly do, as of FF7??) But anyway, the thing to remember is this: The Turks department is older than SOLDIER, Space Exploration, Urban Planning, and probably PSM. And ShinRa probably got to the top via lots of shady means. Who carries out ShinRa's shady business? The Turks. So, I don't think their "character" would have been any different, although their duties may have been. After all, Lucrecia still successfully passes off her fluster as "Oh, I've never met anyone from the Turks before!" and Vincent doesn't seem entirely unaware of the unpleasant connotations that his former job title carries when he wakes up.

Are you kidding me? At least Vincent fell for a collegue of a different department. He was presently her bodyguard and it became relevant because her project involved getting knocked up but compare that with Tseng, who falls in love with his preteen target causing him to delay her capture fo a decade and a half, Elena who fall for her boss pretty much instantly, Rude who crushes on Tifa causing him to fail one engagement after another, Tseng again, who decides to give up on Aerith and then to just go out with afore mentioned much much younger subordinate and Cissnei who falls in love with Zack, who she works with on a whole host of different missions and eventually becomes his target as well.

Vincent was Lucrecia's bodyguard, we don't see him abandon that assignment for the sake of his love. Hojo shot him because he spoke out about her probably dying. As her bodyguard, that is concern he should be raising.

Vincent is not the true professional that Reno is, but he's definitely a step up from the rest of the Turks.

I love all of this, especially the bolded line. Dear god, when we have to start referring to Reno as the "true professional of the Turks," the apocalypse can't be far behind. (Which might explain why the apocalypse is continually not far behind.)

However, I don't think we can assume anymore (as we've collectively generally assumed from the ambiguous OGC flashback) that the thing he raised concerns about with Hojo were "He thought Lucrecia died," since she walks in looking relatively fine just after that. Truth is, we don't know what their argument was about. I headcanon that it was Vincent realizing Hojo was lying to Lucrecia about her ever getting to see her son again, but it could have been anything ranging from something very practical and professional like "I just caught Lucrecia trying to kill herself and this is something you need to be much more concerned about than you are" to something very personal, emotional, and petty like "I'm really tired of you calling me names all the time," and we can't judge his character based on his motive for starting(?) this argument because we can only guess at what it was even about.

The problem isn't what the argument was about. The problem is that he let Hojo get the better of him, and unless Vincent is an idiot, that was most likely due to his personal feelings compromising his professional ability. Which, as you pointed out, many of the newer Turks did, too. But the difference is that Vincent lost. Same action, different result, and the shitty luck of being the one to lose is what makes all the difference. The other Turks got away with it.

I have trouble thinking of DoC!Vincent as an experienced Turk, tbh, which is saying something considering Turks in general do not seem very competent. (They more or less "fail upwards" from BC/CC through FF7 before being demoted to comic relief in ACC. Then they fall off the face of the planet in DoC.)

I mean, I like Vincent, but in DoC, he's a perfect example of an incompetent doormat.

Just in case I sound like I'm being too unfair though: Elena did get herself captured by Don Corneo.

DoC!Vincent, the impossible badass who flips around on rooftops and takes down helicopters with a handgun before landing gracefully yards from the ensuing explosion? DoC!Vincent who more or less infiltrates and takes out an army of supersoldiers singlehandedly? Please, if anything DoC!Vincent is way more competent than what should be believed. (In fact, I struggle with writing him as competent and as powerful as he is portrayed in DoC because I feel like I'm Mary-Suing him when I do.)

As far as portrayal of the Turks, I am willing to pass off their comedic failures as the "exceptions" that I believe they're meant to be. It is unfortunate that many of their on-screen portrayals show them failing for laughs, because it gives the viewer the idea that this is the level of competency that can normally be expected of them. But I believe the context (their reputation, history, etc.) implies that they are normally quite competent and a force to be reckoned with.

As for the Turks not appearing in DoC: DoC has nothing to do with the current ShinRa crew and it would be silly if they showed up. They can be assumed to be doing something else, elsewhere.

Though I did wonder about when Reeve says he hasn't met with his benefactor in person, "only a...representative." Was this representative one of the Turks? I mean, if it was, then Reeve would obviously know that Rufus was his benefactor (in which case he's lying to Vincent about not knowing). But if it wasn't, I wonder who else Rufus would have chosen as his "representative"? (A BC Turk who Reeve never met, incognito, maybe?)

 

[Skan]

My bad, terminology confusion. When I say DoC!Vincent, I mean the Turk who is assigned to guard Lucrecia, though I probably should've just called him Turk!Vincent. I tend to just call the competent Vincent FF7!Vincent.

I don't know if the Turks actually have a reputation for competency. It's like how fans say Sephiroth is a brilliant strategist, but I'm also not sure that's canon. (In fact, the one super-positive attribute that I recall being pinned repeatedly on Sephiroth refers to his fighting prowess, which doesn't really mean he's a mental giant. I blame this characterization on how everyone seems to think he's a general, when, in fact, he's probably not, considering that two people address him as "Mister," Luxiere and Cloud in his flashback = probably Zack.)

Anyways, Turks mostly seem to be known as that group of thugs who do dirty stuff for ShinRa. That kinda sounds more like they're notorious and above the law than anything else. (In fact, one might say that they are so incompetent that their whole department almost went under in BC.)

EDIT: Oh, my bad. Here's one and only reference in the OGC to Sephiroth possibly being smart.

President Shinra:
Unless you become another Sephiroth.
Yes, Sephiroth... He was brilliant. Perhaps too brilliant...

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

He does seem to display a certain level of intelligence in Crisis Core, also. Show, not tell.

He also schemes with Zack to deceive their superiors into thinking they failed to apprehend Angeal(and/or Genesis?) when they really intend to let him(/them?) get away, so there's that.

Anyway, I addressed the issue of Turk!Vincent's competency in our PM just now but I'll put it here instead:

Vincent is more naive than we might expect from a Turk, surely, but what makes you think he's incompetent? He's on a pretty uneventful assignment, so it's not like he gets many opportunities to showcase his physical combat skills. The only time we see him fighting is when he goes up against Hojo, in which case I think he made a stupid mistake because he was emotionally compromised (and maybe, for that matter, also because he was out of practice).

It's not like there haven't been other Turks (or similar combat types) who weren't also shy, bashful, and/or naive (though maybe not with that combination of attributes). Rude gets extremely shy and flustered around girls he's attracted to, does he not? Elena seems fairly naive.

Nunchaku has this character description:

Born into a wealthy lifestyle, he has never experienced difficulty in life, and so has a bright, optimistic outlook. He is talkative and enjoys getting along with his teammates, almost to the point of being overly warm. His naturally disarming personality has earned him many friendships among the Turks.

Knife's is this:

Possibly due to having had to survive on her own when she was younger, Knife (Female) is frank and doesn't dance around a topic. Although she feels alone in the world, she covers it up by cheerfully doing her duties. She fights to create a peaceful world to prevent tragedies like her own from happening. She is attuned to other people's feelings, but is a bit clumsy due to an old bullet wound.

Neither are how I might describe a professional killer outside of anime.

So is it so hard to imagine that Vincent's might be something along the lines of, "Quiet and shy, Vincent prefers to let his sharpshooting skills do the talking. His naive demeanor can be quite disarming but he is skilled and diligent in his missions"?

We only see him on one assignment. Mostly a non-combat assignment. Mostly through the eyes of a girl he likes. And his father just died. (The Omega Reports indicate Dr. Valentine's death wasn't long before the start of the Jenova Project; maybe they even assigned Vincent here so he could have an "uneventful" mission while he deals with his grief.) That's hardly a good indication of how he performed as a Turk on the rest of his missions. In fact, what I'm interpreting as naivety could just be complete lack of girl game.

(And since it's probably more relevant to the thread than the rest of all that: ) I'd actually really like to write fanfiction about Turk!Vincent someday, but I worry that it would have to include too many OCs and people wouldn't want to read it.

 

[Roger]

However, I don't think we can assume anymore (as we've collectively generally assumed from the ambiguous OGC flashback) that the thing he raised concerns about with Hojo were "He thought Lucrecia died," since she walks in looking relatively fine just after that. Truth is, we don't know what their argument was about. I headcanon that it was Vincent realizing Hojo was lying to Lucrecia about her ever getting to see her son again, but it could have been anything ranging from something very practical and professional like "I just caught Lucrecia trying to kill herself and this is something you need to be much more concerned about than you are" to something very personal, emotional, and petty like "I'm really tired of you calling me names all the time," and we can't judge his character based on his motive for starting(?) this argument because we can only guess at what it was even about.

The problem isn't what the argument was about. The problem is that he let Hojo get the better of him, and unless Vincent is an idiot, that was most likely due to his personal feelings compromising his professional ability. Which, as you pointed out, many of the newer Turks did, too. But the difference is that Vincent lost. Same action, different result, and the shitty luck of being the one to lose is what makes all the difference. The other Turks got away with it.

I'm not sure what to make of the conversation after DoC but Lucretia talking about Jenova cells she got as thank you gift from Sephiroth fetus effing her up IS still canon, even if her actual final dissapearance is now attributed to her somehow ending inside that crystal thing, only after Vincent was gunned down (by which time Sephiroth is like 5 and presumably asking Gast who that crazy lady in the other room of the still pretty small Shinra manor is and why she's not allowed to see her child).

And I wouldn't say the others got away with it. Shinra was destroyed, in no small part by Aerith and Tifa. Tseng and Rude dun ****ed up. You don't have to let yourself get hit be Elena after she comes after you to avenge her boss.

 

[Skan]

I don't actually think Sephiroth's scheming screams "brilliant tactician," nor do I think he makes any brilliant deductions. In fact, Sephiroth's main claim to fame is possibly the most monumental fuck-up in the history of FF7, in which he makes a logical leap the width of the Grand Canyon right off the deep end.

(The thing is: you're an overpowered one-man army who can just charge in and wreck shit. When are you going to need to be a brilliant tactician, ever?)

Meanwhile, Vincent's main claim to incompetence is that he actually got shot by Hojo. There are so many reasons why that is just terrible for a Turk, but I will point out the most obvious: Hojo was not even hiding the gun when Vincent went to confront him. In fact, his gun was held out in plain view (but pointed towards the floor at first), and Vincent decides to lunge towards him, unarmed.

And then he gets shot. Jeez, who could've predicted that coming?

I would be more lenient if Hojo were sneaky about his shooting -- e.g. his gun were hidden in his labcoat, and he whipped it out as Vincent approached -- but for god's sake, Vincent.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

What really sticks in the craw of his fellow Turks is that Vincent got shot in the chest. If you get shot in the back, fair enough; not even a Turk can have eyes in the back of his head all the time.

I just can't be arsed to get into a yet another discussion about whether or not the Turks are competent. As far as I'm concerned canon leaves it wide open to interpret them either way.

I do wonder, though, just how much actual "dirty" work Shinra had for the Turks to do. Rufus himself says that his father rules through bread and circuses, and people on the whole seem happy with Shinra's rule. I wouldn't call counter-terrorism operations "dirty work", even when the terrorists are in the right. It's really not possible that their daily grind was one long round of torturing, blackmail, and extra-judicial executions. I mean, in the whole of FFVII we see them assassinate exactly one person, Don Corneo, and he deserved it, the double-dealing pervert. This is not to say that they didn't commit assassinations when they had to, but these must have been few and far between. Their duties appear to include:
- press-ganging people into SOLDIER
- keeping tabs on Aerith
- body guarding the President; escorting other bigwigs eg. Scarlet to Gongaga
- maintaining a network of informants
- getting into hard-to-access places and retrieving lost valuables (the Gelnika)
- CSI style forensic investigations (Tseng and the graves in Banora. "Do Turks do that kind of work?" "Somebody has to."
- stealth missions and targeted assassinations (I think Tseng was sent to Modeoheim to kill Angeal)
I'm not saying they don't murder on command because they obviously do. I'm just saying there probably wasn't a lot of occasion for it.

 

[Roger]

What really sticks in the craw of his fellow Turks is that Vincent got shot in the chest. If you get shot in the back, fair enough; not even a Turk can have eyes in the back of his head all the time.

Sephiroth was stabbed in the chest as well. He wasn't stabbed in the back until the later games' retcons. And that's the big bad.

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

I'm not sure what to make of the conversation after DoC but Lucrecia talking about Jenova cells she got as thank you gift from Sephiroth fetus effing her up IS still canon, even if her actual final dissapearance is now attributed to her somehow ending inside that crystal thing, only after Vincent was gunned down (by which time Sephiroth is like 5 and presumably asking Gast who that crazy lady in the other room of the still pretty small Shinra manor is and why she's not allowed to see her child).

Vincent
"Lucrecia... You're alive..."

Lucrecia
"I wanted to disappear... I couldn't be with anyone... I wanted
to die..."
"But the Jenova inside me wouldn't let me die..."

(She shakes her head.)

Lucrecia
"Lately, I dream a lot of Sephiroth... My dear, dear child."
"Ever since he was born I never got to hold him, even once..."
"Not even once. You can't call me his mother... That... is my
sin..."

(Vincent steps forward. She rises up on her knees.)

Lucrecia
"Back!! Stay back!"

(He stops. She settles back down.)

Lucrecia
"Vincent... Won't you please tell me?"

Vincent
"......What?"

Lucrecia
"If Sephiroth is still alive?"
"I heard that he died five years ago. But I see him in my dreams
so often..."
"And I know that physically, like myself, he can't die so easily."
"Please, Vincent, tell me......"

(Cloud comes forward to Vincent, but he waves him back.)

Vincent: "Lucrecia... Sephiroth is dead..."

(The screen fades to black.)

I'm not seeing what part of this demands that the issue Vincent was confronting Hojo about at that exact moment was, "Hey! Lucrecia just died!" Vincent never says, "Lucrecia, you're alive. I thought you died and I went and yelled at your husband for it and everything." Most likely, he assumed she had died because she was in such bad shape when he last saw her and knew that Hojo wasn't taking care of her and she wasn't taking care of herself.

Meanwhile, Vincent's main claim to incompetence is that he actually got shot by Hojo. There are so many reasons why that is just terrible for a Turk, but I will point out the most obvious: Hojo was not even hiding the gun when Vincent went to confront him. In fact, his gun was held out in plain view (but pointed towards the floor at first), and Vincent decides to lunge towards him, unarmed.

And then he gets shot. Jeez, who could've predicted that coming?

I would be more lenient if Hojo were sneaky about his shooting -- e.g. his gun were hidden in his labcoat, and he whipped it out as Vincent approached -- but for god's sake, Vincent.

In the OGC flashback, he does have the gun hidden in his labcoat. I mean, I'm not one of those people who say "Let's throw away all of the compilation that isn't OGC" but in instances where two installations of the compilation depict the same scene in different ways, I'm willing to take bit of logic from this one and a bit of logic from that one. Hojo holding the gun in his hand and waving about in DoC is something I am willing to attribute to lazy graphics, just like the fact that he looks like an old man at age 30ish and sounds like a chicken.

 

[Roger]

I'm not seeing what part of this demands that the issue Vincent was confronting Hojo about at that exact moment was, "Hey! Lucrecia just died!" Vincent never says, "Lucrecia, you're alive. I thought you died and I went and yelled at your husband for it and everything." Most likely, he assumed she had died because she was in such bad shape when he last saw her and knew that Hojo wasn't taking care of her and she wasn't taking care of herself.

I said probably dying. Not dead. She collapses, next scene is him confronting the only other doctor on the premises. If those two scenes are related in any way or form, then it's hardly Vincent getting himself shot because he's emotionally comprised, it's Vincent trying to do his job despite the people he has been assigned too are very unreasonable. If they aren't related then we again can't assume he was shot because of anything related to his feeling concerning Lucretia. I don't see how Vincent is a warning of anything more then "Hojo's nuts" and "don't get shot."

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

I said probably dying. Not dead. She collapses, next scene is him confronting the only other doctor on the premises. If those two scenes are related in any way or form, then it's hardly Vincent getting himself shot because he's emotionally comprised, it's Vincent trying to do his job despite the people he has been assigned too are very unreasonable. If they aren't related then we again can't assume he was shot because of anything related to his feeling concerning Lucrecia. I don't see how Vincent is a warning of anything more then "Hojo's nuts" and "don't get shot."

You don't think he would be emotionally compromised when he thinks Lucrecia is upstairs dying? I'm not saying getting help wasn't a smart move; I'm just saying he is compromised by his emotions.

 

[Roger]

You don't think he would be emotionally compromised when he thinks Lucrecia is upstairs dying? I'm not saying getting help wasn't a smart move; I'm just saying he is compromised by his emotions.

I don't think it's what made Hojo decide to gun him down no.

 

[Clement Rage]

I think people are attaching too much significance to being shot by Hojo. Anyone can get unlucky against anyone on any given day, we have no indication that Hojo is a bad fighter, and there was absolutely no reason for him to expect one of the people he was guarding to shoot him unless he already read ahead in the script. (We know how insane Hojo is, he might not.) That scene's also from 1st person, he could well have been dipping for his gun when he was shot.

I mean, in the whole of FFVII we see them assassinate exactly one person, Don Corneo, and he deserved it, the double-dealing pervert.

And he apparently lives, too. The only other people they could assassinate onscreen were members of AVALANCHE. Tseng failed to protect Aerith too, she was successfully kidnapped by AVALANCHE the 1st and he eventually had to feed her to Hojo himself.

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

I think if we were meant to believe the Turks are incompetent they wouldn't have the reputation they do. Going back to the whole show vs. tell thing, sometimes you have to accept the tell even when it contradicts the show. Chalk the rest up to poor storytelling if you wish but I don't think the shortcomings of the writers should be taken out on the characters. Especially if we're talking about fanfiction writers taking the characters and portraying them themselves.

 

[Super Mario]

I dunno about incompetence, maybe they acted incompetent in the games just to finalize some objectives kinda like the storm trooper thing in A New Hope. They acted dumb on purpose to the cast for a grander plan. It seems this way because Reno and Rude's fight with those pretty boys in the city at ACC shows they're more than capable of laying the smack down on anyone who is in the way of their objective.

 

[Clement Rage]

I dunno about incompetence, maybe they acted incompetent in the games just to finalize some objectives kinda like the storm trooper thing in A New Hope. They acted dumb on purpose to the cast for a grander plan. It seems this way because Reno and Rude's fight with those pretty boys in the city at ACC shows they're more than capable of laying the smack down on anyone who is in the way of their objective.

The same fight where they were absolutely effortlessly and comprehensively trounced? I mean, they were fighting people well above their standard, you can't blame them, but it doesn't prove they're good fighters. If they'd been taken seriously, Yazoo would have shot them both in about three seconds.

There's a tendency to assume that various Turk mistakes were somehow all part of the plan as well, which I think is giving them too much credit. Even if not incompetent, they're not omniscient either.

 

[Skan]

If you want to write him as super-competent, be my guest. I'm not saying you can't; he probably is passably competent most of the times, because Turks have to draw the line somewhere, no? But I think it might behoove fan writers to reconsider some of their assumptions about characters once every blue moon, not only because it provides great fic-material, but also because it gives you some (different) insight into the characters that you wouldn't get otherwise in an echo chamber of head canon and fanon.

Beautifully put. I totally agree. I think there's a kind of "characterization creep" in which one's version of the canon characters can imperceptibly deviate further and further from the canon.... I know for me this has happened with Tseng, and I think I need to get back to the cold-hearted bastard he was originally. There's scope for a different version from the one I've been refining these last years.

You could say, "Oh, it's just bad storytelling. The authors obviously intended X and not Y," and continue on your merry way. But don't you think that disconnect between the show and tell is one of the best places to pry open a story and get some really insightful material?

Yes.

To clarify my original point - I think the other Turks would see Vincent as a cautionary tale not because he's different from them or necessarily less competent; they all make mistakes, but his mistakes led to personal disaster. If we take the god-like omniscient view, he's unlucky rather than at fault - but the Turks don't have that viewpoint. Also, I suspect they are very superstitious and tend to believe that anyone who copps it somehow brought it on himself. I am pretty sure that what they would NOT do is view him as a Legend in his own time.

 

[Skan]

I think you edited over my post, Lic. Probably for the best; you cut out all the extraneous bits.

Characterization drift is a funny thing. You can often tell which characters are the author's favorites by the degree of deviation. The ones closest to canon are the ones the author doesn't care too much for, while the ones farthest from canon are often their darlings.

It's entertaining to notice as a reader, but extremely disconcerting to notice as a writer. It's pretty much the reason why I'm hesitant about publishing fic on my favorite characters.

 

[Roger]

Yes.

To clarify my original point - I think the other Turks would see Vincent as a cautionary tale not because he's different from them or necessarily less competent; they all make mistakes, but his mistakes led to personal disaster. If we take the god-like omniscient view, he's unlucky rather than at fault - but the Turks don't have that viewpoint. Also, I suspect they are very superstitious and tend to believe that anyone who copps it somehow brought it on himself. I am pretty sure that what they would NOT do is view him as a Legend in his own time.

Maybe back when they were still over a dozen Turks. I don't think the Turks current to the game would look down on Vincent given that they themselves are more at a reluctant ceasefire with President Shinra then Shinra employees at that point.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I can't figure out the meaning of what you wrote there, Minato.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Characterization drift is a funny thing. You can often tell which characters are the author's favorites by the degree of deviation. The ones closest to canon are the ones the author doesn't care too much for, while the ones farthest from canon are often their darlings.

It's entertaining to notice as a reader, but extremely disconcerting to notice as a writer. It's pretty much the reason why I'm hesitant about publishing fic on my favorite characters.

This really depends on the author. If they're the type of author who pays attention to canon, most of the "extra" characterization is mostly extrapolated from canon and usually don't contradict it at least. There are multiple ways of portraying characters that are supported by canon after all.

It only gets annoying when it's obvious the author isn't paying that much attention to canon in the first place.

 

[Roger]

I can't figure out the meaning of what you wrote there, Minato.

As of Before Crisis, the Turks kidnapped the Vice-President and used the secret of his involvement with AVALANCHE as bargaining chip against the President shortly before the events of FFVII, as well as faked the death of Veld and all their collegues who had gotten into too hot water with Shinra. Shinra was undoubtably just waiting for a right opportunity to get rid of them for good before he met his untimely end.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Well, but the Turks won that particular contretemps, in the sense that all of them were still alive and some of them were still working as Turks by the end of the OG, whereas President Shinra was quite definitely dead. They also appear to have been trusted by Rufus. In other words, they won, and Vincent lost. Not only did he fail to get the girl, he also failed to protect himself.

 

[Roger]

Well, but the Turks won that particular contretemps, in the sense that all of them were still alive and some of them were still working as Turks by the end of the OG, whereas President Shinra was quite definitely dead. They also appear to have been trusted by Rufus. In other words, they won, and Vincent lost. Not only did he fail to get the girl, he also failed to protect himself.

So what is Vincent's cautionary tale? "Recklessly gamble with your lives for the sake of your personal attachments all you want. Just make sure you're lucky, unlike Vincent."