SPOILERS Half a year later. What are your thoughts?

[Fade]

I mean... I can give them Biggs. I don't really think there's anything lost in his dodging a bullet. If they use him in some way that's greater than him being simply a plot device for Barret's growth, that might be meritorious.

....As for Zack, he remains to be seen but I'm willing to bet both my kidneys he's gonna end up dead again, once this is over. Square isn't gonna erase the most memorable death next to Aerith from their most popular IP's brand. Nevermind creative integrity, that's just plain stupid business. It's Sci-fi Twilight Zone AU stuff, it could work interestingly enough if done right and resolved properly.

Can't think of anything el-

....

Oh. LOL yeah I definitely don't subscribe to the... Fringe theory a certain other AVALANCHE member is still alive and it's telegraphed by some fucking misunderstood kanji glove desk placement shit. That's bonkers. That'd be insanely stupid, she's dead and even Nomura was shocked at her popularity. Sorta tells me he saw her as one and done and was shocked at her brief impact.

It's as much a general as a specific principle. Casually reviving Barret, basically every named NPC of the slums surviving the plate collapse, the examples you've mentioned, and so on. The brutal and sudden finality of death (which is to say its realism) that is so present in VII is mostly absent from the Remake. Which, given that it was a fairly major theme of the original, is kind of a big deal for me. To use your words, it shows a lack of creative integrity--or at least, creative continuity with the original. One of the things I appreciate about VII is how (for all its silliness), it's very grown up for a fantasy world. Its world is generally earthy, relevant, and relatable, despite some of its more outlandish trappings. The Remake...eh, not so much.

 

[Gazzdw]

Heart break perfectly fits my feelings on the overall takeaway despite loving it. It was bouncing from one atrocious section/design/storytelling decision to the complete opposite in the next scene. Best example off top of my head is I HATED the music and puzzle of the ruined express way (all round very FF13) but the following scene in the childrens play area involving Cloud and Aerith was PERFECTION.

I may have said it before (said it on my platforms) but the most frustrating thing is that they absolutely nailed the hardest things to get right; voice acting, script work, reimagining iconic scenes, battle system...but somehow royally cacked up in other places because of stupid decisions. This doesnt include story expansions eg. with Jessie, Roche, I loved those.

 

[KindOfBlue]

Fringe theory a certain other AVALANCHE member is still alive and it's telegraphed by some fucking misunderstood kanji glove desk placement shit.

I think the worst thing about this is that I actually do believe she could be alive now, but if turns out to be true then it’ll also validate this silly idea (at least, in the mind of the one who believes it)

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Barret's "death" parallels Aerith's so neatly, I can't help wondering if it's a feint. Barret was revived in Part I, so of course Aerith will be brought back to life too. This "death" of hers is just a cheap trick to play on our heartstrings; she's not really dead. Come on, plot ghosts, revive her. Revive her. Come on. Plot ghosts? Are you there....? ....

I loved the ruined expressway. Found the playground disappointing. I thought I'd be able to interact in a more meaningful way. The dialogue between Cloud and Aerith was perfect, though.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

So cold, man. So cold.

I meant that Nomura's surprise at how much people liked her is why I expect her to show up again.

 

[Odysseus]

Nothing makes a character resurrection more likely than marketability

 

[Makoeyes987]

That's a very dangerous viewpoint for writers to hold because one has to carefully look at where the appeal actually comes from, before going down resurrection road.

Jessie was popular because she was well written and broadened beyond being a plot device for Barret. And her death held resonance because she was so loved and tragically cut short. Undoing the memorable premise for why she's so beloved undoes her appeal and this is the same argument behind why I think it's extremely unlikely (not impossible because stupidity is always possible...) They're going to permanently keep Zack alive or not have Aerith die.

They would literally be undoing their own success. Nomura, Nojima, Kitase and Toriyama on their most off day would not undo that. In fact that's against their own dispositions.

Kitase and Nomura thrive on death and angst. Nojima's the same. For them to go gun-shy on killing popular characters would be... Bizarre.

 

[Ite]

ZACK

You literally undermined your own argument there

 

[Odysseus]

Also see: Rufus and Tseng.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Zack being temporarily revived like Uncle Ben in Spiderman doesn't count. His death is not permanently undone or foreseen to be excised from history forever. Dead folks coming back to life temporarily via timeline AUs until time itself is fixed is not an unheard of plot. They treat this revelation as something anomalous, not permanent or stable. Cloud existing as he's supposed to be, demonstrates history relative to him and the main universe is still intact. It's all a hook.

Also see: Rufus and Tseng.

Tseng never died.

Rufus was ambiguous, and they clearly had bigger and more meaningful purposes for his character beyond just getting blazed in a hail of Diamond Flash. That's an example of making a 1 dimensional character a 3 dimensional one through delivering a more well written and fleshed out arc. Especially given he was simply the side antagonist anyways. He wasn't defined by his death.

 

[Odysseus]

Tseng never died.

Rufus was ambiguous, and they clearly had bigger and more meaningful purposes for his character beyond just getting blazed in a hail of Diamond Flash. That's an example of making a 1 dimensional character a 3 dimensional one. Especially given he was the side antagonist anyways.

If there was no compilation, Tseng died. There's one line from Elena that people like to use as evidence to the contrary, but in case of Shinra she thought he was dead right up until they reunite in Midgar, long after that scene in Icicle inn.

I agree that Rufus was well utilized in the compilation, but in no way was that ambiguous. Again, without the compilation, he was dead. His survival was so contrived that they made a joke out of it in AC and the explanation is the goofiest thing in ff7 canon. Secret vent slip n slide lol.

The only reason those two are different is because we've had 15 years to process it. They are still just characters that got brought back because they were popular. Biggs and Jessie not dying might pay off spectacularly for all we know, or it could be contrived and stupid. We don't know yet.

 

[looneymoon]

Kitase and Nomura thrive on death and angst. Nojima's the same. For them to go gun-shy on killing popular characters would be... Bizarre.

are we... talking about the same people?

 

[Makoeyes987]

Kitase and Nojima brought back Sin because they felt death and despair was the proper atmosphere of FFX.

They also essentially killed Tidus and made a copy of him.

Kitase and Nomura originally wanted to kill at least half the party of FFVII during the parachute into Midgar and Nojima had to talk them out of it.

Aerith being dead was a foregone conclusion, with the writers reveling in killing her in the game and twisting the knife of her loss.

Allegedly Noctis was always meant for death, even before Versus XIII switched hands to Tabata. Nomura pictured his end early in development on the throne.

Nojima never wanted Tidus to have a chance of return either.

The fact Rufus survived his Diamond Weapon explosion is hardly evidence of the writers wanting to just undo their own creative work. Especially when they've repeatedly gone on record in interviews to the contrary.

If there was no compilation, Tseng died. There's one line from Elena that people like to use as evidence to the contrary, but in case of Shinra she thought he was dead right up until they reunite in Midgar, long after that scene in Icicle inn.

That's not true because even in the original script, the line Tseng gives is that he's still alive and he won't die that easily. Furthermore, the Ultimania Omega explicitly states he survives. Tseng was not ever listed as dead. That was a common misinterpretation that FAQs wrote about.

I agree that Rufus was well utilized in the compilation, but in no way was that ambiguous. Again, without the compilation, he was dead. His survival was so contrived that they made a joke out of it in AC and the explanation is the goofiest thing in ff7 canon. Secret vent slip n slide lol.

The only reason those two are different is because we've had 15 years to process it. They are still just characters that got brought back because they were popular. Biggs and Jessie not dying might pay off spectacularly for all we know, or it could be contrived and stupid. We don't know yet.

I mean, I can concede your point over Rufus but Tseng wasn't dead. Elena jokingly thinking Tseng was dead was played for laughs. Especially when again, multiple sources and the script showed that Tseng was explicit in stating he was not dead and only wounded.

 

[Wol]

Kitase and Nojima brought back Sin because they felt death and despair was the proper atmosphere of FFX.

They also essentially killed Tidus and made a copy of him.

Kitase and Nomura originally wanted to kill at least half the party of FFVII during the parachute into Midgar and Nojima had to talk them out of it.

Aerith being dead was a foregone conclusion, with the writers reveling in killing her in the game and twisting the knife of her loss.

Allegedly Noctis was always meant for death, even before Versus XIII switched hands to Tabata. Nomura pictured his end early in development on the throne.

Nojima never wanted Tidus to have a chance of return either.

The fact Rufus survived his Diamond Weapon explosion is hardly evidence of the writers wanting to just undo their own creative work. Especially when they've repeatedly gone on record in interviews to the contrary.

Imagine if Zack and Aerith dies in all the new timelines lmfao

 

[Odysseus]

Kitase and Nomura originally wanted to kill at least half the party of FFVII during the parachute into Midgar and Nojima had to talk them out of it.

Wasn't it Nomura who talked them out of this?

 

[Makoeyes987]

Wasn't it Nomura who talked them out of this?

Actually, you're right. Wrong "N" of the development team.

 

[Cat on Mars]

Man, I can't wait to be able to afford a PS4, a tv and a copy of FF7R so I can complain too!
I feel so left out.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

I haven't played, the game... only watched the cutscenes/playthoughs... and I complain plenty as the logic of the narrative of a work is pretty independent of what medium the work is.

I tend not to talk about gameplay as I haven't played that... although every time I watch it, I don't like how it looks, so there's that.

 

[Cat on Mars]

I haven't played, the game... only watched the cutscenes/playthoughs... and I complain plenty as the logic of the narrative of a work is pretty independent of what medium the work is.

That's good. You do you.

In my case, I need to experiment frustration and disappointment so I can complain properly, I just can't do it without emotional attachment.

 

[Ite]

That's good. You do you.

In my case, I need to experiment frustration and disappointment so I can complain properly, I just can't do it without emotional attachment.

I did just fine with Dirge of Cerberus

 

[Odysseus]

Dirge is great and you're all wrong, fight me

 

[ForceStealer]

"great" is ambitious. But I do think it's fun

 

[Makoeyes987]

Dirge of Cerberus is great

Spoiler: .

... For meme fuel.

Shout out to Dirge for punishing Shalua Rui's fashion crimes with death. Through Azul cracking her head open and then Cid crashing her life support pod into the ruins of Midgar. Fucking R-I-P.

 

[Cat on Mars]

I did just fine with Dirge of Cerberus

Good to know.

I just want to keep some enthusiasm for this shit in case I'll be able to play it in the next 6 months. Which is doubtful because I'm poor, but hey. There's hope. Maybe.

 

[Torrie]

@Cat on Mars, @Obsidian Fire

I'm still in the same boat as you, so I just can't get involved in deep discussions without having established an emotional link to the gameplay, or having looked into every corner all by myself, or having admired every possible pose the characters may display during the slow-mo