Clement Rage
Pro Adventurer
I haven't played TLOU 2, but the gameplay looked so dull. But, some Youtubers edit out their screwups, so maybe that's inaccurate. Hard to get a good picture without the direct experience.
SPOILERS Half a year later. What are your thoughts?
- Thread starter cold_spirit
- Start date
Re: the level design, I, too, was disappointed, and I think a big part of the problem is that a lot of the areas within levels are very, VERY same-y. MANY of the levels are just same- or extremely similar-looking areas linked together (often open areas for you to fight enemies). For example, off the top of my head, look at where you have to light the sun lamps, the lead up to the Airbuster fight, the sewers (x2), the train graveyard (kind of), Hojo’s lab. This makes it very easy to get turned around because there’s not much in the way of in-game landmarks, it’s just all so similar. I’d often get disoriented after fighting enemies even in the very corridor-like areas and had to check my map to make sure I wasn’t going in the direction I came from.
To be fair, some of the same-y quality comes from the industrial setting - like the pillar is gonna look the same on every level as you fight up it, that’s to be expected. But I think it’s also due, in part, to the combat system. I LOVE what they did with the combat system itself, but unfortunately it kind of necessitates this linking-open-areas-together style of level design.
No, the issue is absolutely the game, not the player or the nature of modern 3D exploration. Navigating the areas is more confusing than it needs to be because mini-maps and objective markers are a thing; levels designed with the notion that the player will always have these things to fall back on aren’t as clear or deliberate in terms of design and in-game landmarks as they could be. The two games I played before FFVIIR were Bloodborne and Dark Souls 1 (games that have absolutely no maps/markers at all). I was fully prepared to not use the mini-map in FFVIIR - after all, I didn’t miss having a map while playing BB or DS1. But upon starting FFVIIR I quickly discovered that wasn’t because I’d become sort of navigational genius, it was because those games were specifically designed so that the player never needs a map. On paper Central Yharnam is more complex in terms of design than any level in FFVIIR, but I can navigate it in my sleep and I’ve never looked at a map of it. I played pretty much the entirety of FFVIIR with the mini-map on because it was too much of a headache without it, and I still need to look at the full map frequently every time I’m in Wall Market. Granted, I realize it’s more than a little unfair to compare the level design of FFVIIR to that of the Souls series, as they’re very different sorts of games, but I really believe whether the player can navigate without a map is mostly due to the game, not the player. I don’t expect FFVIIR, or any game like it, to dispense with mini-maps and markers and such entirely, but I hope Part 2 steps it up in terms of level design and makes them less necessary.
To be fair, some of the same-y quality comes from the industrial setting - like the pillar is gonna look the same on every level as you fight up it, that’s to be expected. But I think it’s also due, in part, to the combat system. I LOVE what they did with the combat system itself, but unfortunately it kind of necessitates this linking-open-areas-together style of level design.
Mini-maps, quest markers, and arrows/barriers are necessary now. That's a consequence of modern RPG level design that's meant to streamline and ease navigation for... directionally challenged players. I tried several portions of the game blind, to not rely on the mini-map and "take in" certain areas. Specifically the underplate, the abandoned factory of Midgar, Wall Market and Sector 5. All those areas had lots of explorability and things to find hidden in their areas, for sure. Wall Market especially. You could find all sorts of characters doing shady shit, like talking about how certain people needed to be disposed of at the behest of Choco-Sam, or a guy getting shaken down for "protection/insurance" money. Or the dude who was harassing a woman for a trading card from ice cream. The problem is.... People who are directionally challenged can get plum lost in the entirety of the intricate high res locations.
You sorta need that type of accessibility navigation to make areas not so... Overwhelming. The price of such realistic graphics and massive 3D design with freely controlled camera angles is it becomes horrifyingly easy to get lost in some areas. I fucking nearly lost my shit trying to find some of the lights in the underplate because it got so confusing, even with the map. There's a fuckton to discover in there and other areas... But you also can just get horribly frustrated being lost and need to put the game down to rub your eyes.
No, the issue is absolutely the game, not the player or the nature of modern 3D exploration. Navigating the areas is more confusing than it needs to be because mini-maps and objective markers are a thing; levels designed with the notion that the player will always have these things to fall back on aren’t as clear or deliberate in terms of design and in-game landmarks as they could be. The two games I played before FFVIIR were Bloodborne and Dark Souls 1 (games that have absolutely no maps/markers at all). I was fully prepared to not use the mini-map in FFVIIR - after all, I didn’t miss having a map while playing BB or DS1. But upon starting FFVIIR I quickly discovered that wasn’t because I’d become sort of navigational genius, it was because those games were specifically designed so that the player never needs a map. On paper Central Yharnam is more complex in terms of design than any level in FFVIIR, but I can navigate it in my sleep and I’ve never looked at a map of it. I played pretty much the entirety of FFVIIR with the mini-map on because it was too much of a headache without it, and I still need to look at the full map frequently every time I’m in Wall Market. Granted, I realize it’s more than a little unfair to compare the level design of FFVIIR to that of the Souls series, as they’re very different sorts of games, but I really believe whether the player can navigate without a map is mostly due to the game, not the player. I don’t expect FFVIIR, or any game like it, to dispense with mini-maps and markers and such entirely, but I hope Part 2 steps it up in terms of level design and makes them less necessary.
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
Well I'm not sure what they could necessarily do to make navigation with a mini-map not necessary. What is it that's wrong or same-y? I certainly found the variety they were able to pack into a single city quite admirable.
I mean, if they made the navigation too straightforward and linear, people would skewer Toriyama with accusations of creating XIII-esque self playing corridors. The game had high levels of verticality and open areas of exploration within their dungeons so... Should that be simplified? I think you raise an interesting point about levels designed with the notion that the player will always have mini-maps to fall back on being not as clear or deliberate, but then that seems like the only way to fix that is simplify their landscape or make there be other explicit clues or "markers" built in the game's architecture and setting anyways.
So they're in essence either putting markers in the game or just having to do something else that's like a directional. They're just not as explicit. I'm sorta wondering what the other option here is.
I mean, if they made the navigation too straightforward and linear, people would skewer Toriyama with accusations of creating XIII-esque self playing corridors. The game had high levels of verticality and open areas of exploration within their dungeons so... Should that be simplified? I think you raise an interesting point about levels designed with the notion that the player will always have mini-maps to fall back on being not as clear or deliberate, but then that seems like the only way to fix that is simplify their landscape or make there be other explicit clues or "markers" built in the game's architecture and setting anyways.
So they're in essence either putting markers in the game or just having to do something else that's like a directional. They're just not as explicit. I'm sorta wondering what the other option here is.
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Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
Ahh, well that's a good, understandable start. 
Like, Wall Market had some, but they were not nearly as visible due to them not being high above Cloud's eye level perspective. Wall Market's vertical levels and uneven terrain makes it tough to navigate at times.
I honestly used NPCs and certain stores to remember where everything was lol
Like, Wall Market had some, but they were not nearly as visible due to them not being high above Cloud's eye level perspective. Wall Market's vertical levels and uneven terrain makes it tough to navigate at times.
I honestly used NPCs and certain stores to remember where everything was lol
Ite
Save your valediction (she/her)
- AKA
- Ite
@HylianMogget I simply didn’t share your experience. I never had the minimap on and had no trouble navigating the game. This could also be because I enjoy getting a little turned around when I’m in a new area, my only gripe was that actually turning was like pushing a donkey uphill. The lamps were tedious because of the slow animations, holding down triangle and watching Cloud shift his weight every time he looked at anything. But I was never lost.
I don't mean same-y across the levels, that was fine, I mean within the levels. Look at the level you go through leading up the Airbuster fight. You go through similar-looking hallways, get to an open room and fight enemies (then disable what you want to on the boss), repeat. The level with the sun lamps has some light puzzle elements, which was good (I enjoyed the offshoot with the fans, too, and the getting the elemental materia was my favorite puzzle in the game), but much of it is similar-looking platforms linked together with some enemies to fight, it's easy to get turned around when exploring. Lowering the water level in the sewers was nice, but simplistic, and there's portions of the map where it's literally just circular areas where you fight sahagins linked by corridors. Hojo's lab splits up the party, but the level is very straightforward and it's basically running through some lab rooms, fighting some enemies, switch parties; if you can't progress with one party that just means it's time to switch to the other (you don't need really need to think about the back and forth).
I don't know how a totally map-less/objective-less FFVIIR (or similar JRPG) would work - more distinct architectural cues and NPCs, perhaps (FFVIIR's Sims-like NPCs is another issue, but not a level design-related one). Like I said, the Souls games aren't comparable for a number of reasons (for one, they're straight-up ARPGs; another big thing is enemy placement is HUGE in Souls, but a non-issue in FFVIIR), but the levels in those games are extremely satisfying; I think their clarity comes from distinct architecture and level elements, but enemy encouters probably help, too. The levels in FFVIIR are mostly straightforward and linear, but that's not my issue with them. Linear =/= bad (most levels in DS1 and BB are linear, when you get down to it). Other than stuff kind of looking the same, the other problem is that exploration doesn't feel as compelling as it should. I suppose one thing I'd like to see FFVIIR do more of is showing you an item chest or materia in a place that you wouldn't think you could get to, incentivizing you to keep it in mind or try to explore and find a way to get it. I think it did do this sometimes, but I don't remember any really distinct "aha" moments. Perhaps that's something that's easier to do in a game without a map (or a detailed map), since you can't look at the map to help you figure it out.
Interesting, maybe the level design just didn't click with me, then. Perhaps I was exaggerating about the headache bit, though, lol - I didn't mean to say that I had trouble with navigation (except Wall Market), exactly, or that I got lost, just that it was easy to get turned around after battle because there was often not much indicating which way I'd come from vs which way I had been going before I got in a fight. That and I found Wall Market very unintuitive. And I agree, having to hold (not just press) triangle to flip switches was nonsensical.
ForceStealer
Double Growth
And I agree, having to hold (not just press) triangle to flip switches was nonsensical.
This sort of thing always strikes me as dumb, but this was still way better than having to mash a button to do anything like in the God of War games. Man that drove me insane for what little I've even played of them.
Wall Market's confusing maziness was pretty intentional, I assume. And once you DO get the layout down, it's kinda fun to navigate. I like the shifting instruments in the music for different areas too.
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LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
I thought the whole point of a dungeon was to get turned around. You need to keep your wits about you and look out and memorise landmarks. I liked that, it made the game more challenging. The Reactor 5 section was a place where re-using assets made perfect sense, because that's exactly how they would be built irl. Every floor and corridor of Reactor 5 was slightly different.
What bothered me more was stuff like the same painting re-appearing three times on the walls of Aerith's house, and Aerith's bedroom being so lacking in personality, individuality.
What bothered me more was stuff like the same painting re-appearing three times on the walls of Aerith's house, and Aerith's bedroom being so lacking in personality, individuality.
Tetsujin
he/they
- AKA
- Tets
I don't hate the ending as much as I used to, I had quite the kneejerk reaction in the beginning. I still think it's kinda dumb and unnecessary though and it makes me a bit anxious for the future of the remake. As for everything else, I still love it.
The combat, the music, the character interactions. Just...*chef's kiss*
Fix the textures though please
The combat, the music, the character interactions. Just...*chef's kiss*
Fix the textures though please
Erotic Materia
[CONFUSED SCREAMING]
I'm far too impatient to read through all the other posts in this thread that has blown the fuck up. I'm confident many of you have echoed my own sentiments (yay!) or taken an opposing stance (boooo).
But this right here:
You keep talking like that, and I can't promise I won't rip your pants off.
But this right here:
You keep talking like that, and I can't promise I won't rip your pants off.
Clement Rage
Pro Adventurer
I need to play the ending again, I think. The Whispers were fine, but why do we fight Sephiroth again? Am I forgetting something?
Odysseus
Ninja Potato
- AKA
- Ody
You beat the whispers, then Sephiroth shows up and absorbs them into himself and then you fight him. A reason isn't given for why he fights you or what he's doing, I guess those are mysteries for later.
Erotic Materia
[CONFUSED SCREAMING]
Odysseus
Ninja Potato
- AKA
- Ody
1. They're trying to get out of Midgar, giant wall of ghosts is stopping them.
2. Cloud has to s e t t l e t h e s c o r e with him anyway.
3. Aerith, using her magic future knowledge, knows Sephiroth is the real enemy they need to stop instead of just Shinra, and Cloud has plenty of reason to believe her.
Seems like enough reasons to me
Erotic Materia
[CONFUSED SCREAMING]
Devil's advocate: they had no reason to defeat the Whispers, because if they let destiny run its course, they already know they'd win.
Wol
None Shall Remember Those Who Do Not Fight
- AKA
- Rosarian Shield
They will realize that in part 3, so... Plot-twist, they will turn into Whispers after entering the lifestream, and go back in time to correct the timeline. But now they'll have to make sure OG happens as it did, and THAT will be harder.
I wouldn't be surprised if we saw them as whispers as guardians of the new timeline though.
Eerie
Fire and Blood
I think Aerith chose that path for them because she was shown Zack's fate before the portal. She was the only one who saw him in his Last Stand, and she was hesitating before but chose to go through after she saw him fight.
I didn't play yet (hahaha), but I've seen multiple playthroughs. My opinion about it hasn't changed: the characters are at the best they've ever been, all of them are really likeable and their interactions are enjoyable to follow. Story-wise, I'd say it's packed but there are a lot of things to dissect in chapter 18 alone - I went through that in slow motion to look at what was happening. The game as a whole happens fast, a lot of interactions happen fast, but when you slow it down, you can grasp better what's going on. It's really interesting to follow and dissect and gives you a better overall view of what's truly happening - versus what you may think is happening at a normal pacing. It's full of easter eggs, really. I am more convinced that they are doing the follow up as it happened during the OG, as there are hints of:
Those three scenes are heavily hinted at, and while the last one is more on the shipper side, the two others are the two BIG events of FFVII OG. And they're there. One can comment that with the whispers gone, anything could happen, but the way everything was put together makes me doubt; if you hint at things that will happen early on, there is no reason to not make it happen, or it would be confusing for the players. It's interesting that Aerith tries to change Zack's fate, because her face and her line at the end makes me say that Zack is still dead in their reality. Everything that needed to happen in Midgar has happened; it has been expanded on, but the story is on track, Aerith who had the story lead towards the end gives it back to Cloud.
There will be things scrapped from the OG and others added (Nomura commented on how Nojima wanted to *add* locations that we saw in other games), but I do believe that the skeleton will be the same, and there are tons of theories more or less interesting to read about chapter 18. And to me, that's a big win, given the quality of this Remake.
I didn't play yet (hahaha), but I've seen multiple playthroughs. My opinion about it hasn't changed: the characters are at the best they've ever been, all of them are really likeable and their interactions are enjoyable to follow. Story-wise, I'd say it's packed but there are a lot of things to dissect in chapter 18 alone - I went through that in slow motion to look at what was happening. The game as a whole happens fast, a lot of interactions happen fast, but when you slow it down, you can grasp better what's going on. It's really interesting to follow and dissect and gives you a better overall view of what's truly happening - versus what you may think is happening at a normal pacing. It's full of easter eggs, really. I am more convinced that they are doing the follow up as it happened during the OG, as there are hints of:
- Aerith's death - no one wants to be bridal carried by Cloud, really, Jessie can confirm, but it's not the only one
- the Lifestream scene
- the Highwind high affection scene
- the Lifestream scene
- the Highwind high affection scene
Those three scenes are heavily hinted at, and while the last one is more on the shipper side, the two others are the two BIG events of FFVII OG. And they're there. One can comment that with the whispers gone, anything could happen, but the way everything was put together makes me doubt; if you hint at things that will happen early on, there is no reason to not make it happen, or it would be confusing for the players. It's interesting that Aerith tries to change Zack's fate, because her face and her line at the end makes me say that Zack is still dead in their reality. Everything that needed to happen in Midgar has happened; it has been expanded on, but the story is on track, Aerith who had the story lead towards the end gives it back to Cloud.
There will be things scrapped from the OG and others added (Nomura commented on how Nojima wanted to *add* locations that we saw in other games), but I do believe that the skeleton will be the same, and there are tons of theories more or less interesting to read about chapter 18. And to me, that's a big win, given the quality of this Remake.
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LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
I do find it quite interesting and exciting that we don't actually know what's going to happen next.
One thing that makes me sad to say is that I don't think I would have fallen in love with the Turks had I played the Remake first. I hate what they've done to Tseng, and I hate their tacky new outfits, which aren't classy at all. One doesn't expect Reno to be classy, but I really regret that they've turned him into some kind of metrosexual dude who spends hours on his grooming every morning. OG Reno was a natural redhead; this one clearly dyes his hair.
One thing that makes me sad to say is that I don't think I would have fallen in love with the Turks had I played the Remake first. I hate what they've done to Tseng, and I hate their tacky new outfits, which aren't classy at all. One doesn't expect Reno to be classy, but I really regret that they've turned him into some kind of metrosexual dude who spends hours on his grooming every morning. OG Reno was a natural redhead; this one clearly dyes his hair.
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
....What the..?
So was Aerith just talking nonsense like the slum drunk or something?
She explicitly explains why you're fighting Sephiroth.
Chapter 18 said:
Sephiroth intends to absorb and take control of the spirit energy of the planet. The Arbiters of Fate went into a frenzy due to the threat Sephiroth posed to the planet. He then breached their world. The chaos caused by Sephiroth's presence caused the Arbiters to lash out at Cloud and the others and they fought back to reach Sephiroth, but this only gave him the opening necessary to absorb their power. However, he then lost that power and returned back to his normal state.
And it's back to the drawing board with the Black Materia.
Letting "Destiny Run It's Course" essentially meant letting Sephiroth fester in the Singularity. Just like he was able to poison the planet and eventually take control of it's Lifestream, there's no reason to think he'd have been unable to take control of the Arbiters of Fate through his indomitable will. Cloud and the others merely sped up what he probably would have accomplished on his own through sheer determination.