SPOILERS Half a year later. What are your thoughts?

ForceStealer

Double Growth
Yeah, honestly I don't remember the scene super clearly or how I felt about it on the whole. But someone who doesn't know what to say about a serious situation bringing up something mundane doesn't strike me as weird in the least. Pretty relatable, honestly. Standing by the deathbed of a family friend a couple years ago, I was at a complete loss as to whether I should talk as though everything were normal, or say something lighthearted, silently smile, or what. Cloud mentioning pizza in a similar moment makes complete sense to me.
 

Tetsujin

he/they
AKA
Tets
tenor.gif
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
People do that all the time. The everyday, memorable and enjoyable moments that will never be experienced again due to death are referenced explicitly in people's final words.

Thank you for all of those excellent supporting examples!

@X-SOLDIER Glad to hear that I'm not the only one who thought that might be the best line in the game (along with Barret's "She's tougher than me"). I've been flabbergasted at how so many people dislike it, so it's helpful to hear why it probably works so well for me.

Super glad I could help! :D I was thinking about this again today, and the conversation around the pizza line reminded me a lot of this:

There's a big difference between what we're shown that things are like vs. what they're actually like to experience. Most death in game media is about emotional arcs. You experience shock, or outrage, or sadness. You still experience losing something, but that is connected to a specific story thread or narrative element. Real death isn't like that at all. Like... it doesn't serve a greater purpose – it's always up to you to try and make it have some meaning. When the entirety of someone's existence just gets dropped on your lap, you fumble with processing everything about them all at once, and it doesn't actually give you purpose. It points you in every direction at once, and you grab at all of them but none of them fit.

I think that it's actually one of the most significant things in the context of Remake overall, because of just how much emphasis that they put into making sure that while there are narrative story elements and goofy things all over, THAT is where they lean in extra hard on going for realism. There're so many things that they portray that are just INSANELY accurate when it comes to trauma that it's just gutting to play it in ways that are hard to put your finger on. Aside from the pizza line, all of the inclusion of the NPC dialogue after the Reactor No. 1 explodes, or where the tremors of the fallen Plate in the Sector 7 Slums still settling is giving people panic attacks.

Like. THAT is what makes Remake something way different. Lots of other games put a ton of effort to portray gritty realism, but I still can't think of one that really just knocks it out of the park the way that Remake does, and how they set those elements up to pay off in ways where they hit you the same way. There is a HUGE amount of attention to detail on those elements, which is really important in establishing the accuracy of Cloud's mental struggles in a way that's not overly fantastic while still being interlinked to fantasy elements.


That's also why I've no doubt that the rest of the game(s) will be nothing short of spectacular.



X :neo:
 

Areega

Sephiroth's Best Friend
AKA
Ariga
When I first played the remake when it came out, I was extremely disappointed in it and I hated the changes.

I have been replaying it recently, and I must say... my viewpoint has flipped completely and I am absolutely loving the remake this time around. I think the characters were done really well and I'm really excited for where the story will go next. Oh, and I have developed a crush on a few characters... namely a certain Turk and a new President lol.
 

Stiggie

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Stiggie
When I first played the remake when it came out, I was extremely disappointed in it and I hated the changes.

I have been replaying it recently, and I must say... my viewpoint has flipped completely and I am absolutely loving the remake this time around. I think the characters were done really well and I'm really excited for where the story will go next. Oh, and I have developed a crush on a few characters... namely a certain Turk and a new President lol.

My opinion is still unchanged, I intensely dislike the changes, and while the implications I see in them have become smaller, I still don't like their addition in the remake and having played through it again with a friend, and watching some more blind lets plays, I've become extra convinced that there was no need to change things just to keep it "fresh".

I've found an additional small thing that annoys me that I didn't really realize the first time I played the game.
When Cloud and company see Sephiroth in shinra HQ that's the first time Tifa sees Sephiroth since he killed her father, stabbed her, left her for dead, and took away everything she knew and loved. Unlike Cloud she never even had a hint that he was alive. And yet all she does is stumble back a bit, that scene should have been all about her, she should have lunged at him, she should have shown more anger afterwards as well while fighting him, she arguably has more reason to hate him than even Cloud. So why don't we get any emotional resolution about this? This should impact her as much as the plate or more, but it's just forgotten.
If anything remake2 HAS to address how she deals with the knowledge that Sephiroth is alive.

Also, small thing I realized, Cloud totally could have saved himself at shinra HQ if he'd just been willing to drop his buster sword and grab the beam with both hands, dude literally decided he'd rather die with the buster sword than live without it. I think we found Clouds real object of affection right there people.


I guess I go against the stream here, but to me remake Aerith was a very weak character. It's like when you play a pen and paper game and there is that one dude who gives his OC every character trait ever, that's remake Aerith to me.
ff7r deals much more with all the hardship she went through and in the end it all just boils down into making her more positive and empathetic, there are no real consequences to anything she endured in her life, it's like she is always everything and nothing at the same time

-She is super playful and just wants to have fun and not think about all that serious stuff, but at the same time she dealt her entire life with Shinra/voices has terrifying knowledge of the future and literally carries the world on her shoulders without a complain
-She can be stubborn and bossy but only in a adorable way <3
-She is the last of a super special magic race but also just a a normal girl who is enjoying life uwu
-She is a weirdo who can talk with flowers and was alone and isolated for a huge part of her childhood which makes her different and lonely but at the same time she is super social and outgoing, works in a orphanage helps out as a waitress and is just loved by literally everyone in sector 5
-She went through emotional and physical torture but she is still the most cheerful, trusting, happy and optimistic person in the entire game just because
-She knows she will die but that's totally okay
-She is suppose to be a poor slum girl but lives in a place that looks like it's straight out of a Disney movie
-She is suppose to be homely looking but just with a little make over she becomes a 10/10
-She has the innocents of a child even though she saw her mother die after years of abuse and torture
-She needs a bodyguard but she also doesn't
-She doesn't have to get to know people to build a relationship with them, she gets all her knowledge from the Planet ;^)
-She might be a time traveler
-One second she is afraid of ghosts and the next she plays hide and seek with them
-She is able to give people access to the script of ff7 by just touching them
-She is ready to die for humanity and their sins because that's her responsibility as a Cetra etc

It's like somebody hit on all the positive personality trait checkboxes while making a new character. I mean, maybe you could argue that goes for her original self too, but og Aerith didn't start out like that. She was a fun loving young woman who slowly accepted who she really is and who grew into her role as the last Ancient through her journey. There was a character progression happening with her. She also had some negative aspects to her personality, which made her much more human and relatable, which ff7r Aerith is absolute void of.
The new version is as inoffensive as it gets.
Which doesn't mean that she is unlikable, quite the opposite, way more people like this Aerith over the old version, but I would argue that her original self is a much stronger character.

I really wish that the ending would have led to her making a decision for everyone else, like her being the one who decided to go after Seph which than would have lead to unforeseen consequences, kinda like a Superman thing where the conflict stems from a moral dilemma, she knows more than anyone else, so why wouldn't she think that she knows best? Or her going against destiny just because she is actually afraid to die or because she feels bitter about the fact that she has to be a sacrificed. Give her some humanity SE.
But nope, everything she does is out of love, responsibility and kindness. That's just too much for me.
Read this again after a few months, amazing how much I still agree with it.
 

ultima786

Pro Adventurer
AKA
ultima
When I first played the remake when it came out, I was extremely disappointed in it and I hated the changes.

I have been replaying it recently, and I must say... my viewpoint has flipped completely and I am absolutely loving the remake this time around. I think the characters were done really well and I'm really excited for where the story will go next. Oh, and I have developed a crush on a few characters... namely a certain Turk and a new President lol.

What made you change your mind?

I've found an additional small thing that annoys me that I didn't really realize the first time I played the game.
When Cloud and company see Sephiroth in shinra HQ that's the first time Tifa sees Sephiroth since he killed her father, stabbed her, left her for dead, and took away everything she knew and loved. Unlike Cloud she never even had a hint that he was alive. And yet all she does is stumble back a bit, that scene should have been all about her, she should have lunged at him, she should have shown more anger afterwards as well while fighting him, she arguably has more reason to hate him than even Cloud. So why don't we get any emotional resolution about this?

Tifa’s lack of a response is literally my main gripe with the story and I actually consider it a plot-hole. They could have easily just hinted to it, by having her show fear or a close up on her clenched fists or something. And further still, she she’s “Sephiroth” multiple times thereafter and doesn’t react appropriately. She even is snarky to him during the final boss. This really bothers me. Of course perhaps they could fix it a bit by making the Sephiroth-experiences just cloaked men and only Cloud is seeing Sephiroth. But this wouldn’t fix the end fight and the way tifa responds to him.

As for Cloud not letting go of the Buster sword... I thought about it also but it didn’t bother me. If the devs are geniuses they could make that into a story point. Tifa says, “Why didn’t you just let go of the sword?” Cloud state, “I just couldn’t ... I can’t explain it.” Que Zack psyche stuff.
 

KindOfBlue

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Blue
I mean in the OG we don’t get much of a reaction from Tifa about Sephiroth either so I assumed they just didn’t think to show that...I wouldn’t go as far as calling it a plot hole since it doesn’t necessarily mean she doesn’t react, just that we don’t see it, and they could address how she feels later on too
 

Torrie

astray ay-ay-ay
When Cloud and company see Sephiroth in shinra HQ that's the first time Tifa sees Sephiroth since he killed her father, stabbed her, left her for dead, and took away everything she knew and loved. Unlike Cloud she never even had a hint that he was alive.
I looked that scene up and I have a funny feeling that whom the party can see in HQ is not Sephiroth but just a cloaked man (perhaps with the illusionary Masamune, but I can't be a 100% sure). Cloud might be the one to have a vision of Sephiroth there, hence no visible reaction from Tifa and the party. Whereas at the end of the highway is where the party is confronted for real this time, but that entire scene with Seph dropping feathers and descending from above with a smile and a dramatic skyline as a background looks so terrifying that everybody "freezes" in fear and uncertainty. Besides, there's a category of people who tend to freeze in a life or death emergency situation, and we know that Tifa tends to internalize just about everything, and her feelings wouldn't be relevant to the plot at those particular moments, so... I don't really see a contradiction.

As for Cloud not letting go of the Buster sword... I thought about it also but it didn’t bother me. If the devs are geniuses they could make that into a story point. Tifa says, “Why didn’t you just let go of the sword?” Cloud state, “I just couldn’t ... I can’t explain it.” Que Zack psyche stuff.
Oh, that would have been such a nice touch *sobs*
 
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KindOfBlue

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Blue
I looked that scene up and I have a funny feeling that whom the party can see in HQ is not Sephiroth but just a cloaked man (perhaps with the illusionary Masamune, but I can't be a 100% sure).
Tifa namedrops Sephiroth on the way to the president’s office if I remember correctly but either way, I don’t think it’s a big deal
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Might not have worked because he could be holding any of his swords in that scene depending on what the player has equipped. Nail Vat doesn't quite have the same sentimental value lol.

...It would for me....

Nothing is more dramatic and intense than Cloud clashing with Sephiroth with a nail studded bat. All of that hatred and fury channeled into that blunt Negan-esque weapon of destruction.
 

Odysseus

Ninja Potato
AKA
Ody
...It would for me....

Nothing is more dramatic and intense than Cloud clashing with Sephiroth with a nail studded bat. All of that hatred and fury channeled into that blunt Negan-esque weapon of destruction.
Aubrey approves!
OMORI-Aubrey-Fight-Without-Knife.jpg

Someone besides me play omori I'm begging you.

I really need to see that scene where he throws his sword into a window during the escape from the shinra building, but it's the nail bat.
 

Areega

Sephiroth's Best Friend
AKA
Ariga
What made you change your mind?
I don't think anything in particular changed my mind... Maybe my state of mind? I expected the remake to be just like the original when it first came out, but I've now accepted that it is different. And once I accepted the differences, I started to really like them. It's weird, I know. But I am weird, I suppose. Once I started to like the differences, I started to love everything else.
 

Saven

Pro Adventurer
Now I'm imagining that sword dropping from 70 floors up and landing on some innocent NPC who just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time....

*Johnny is arguing with a bunch of Shinra grunts on ground level*
*Looks up*
Johnny: OH SHIIIII-
*puts both hands up in the air to try and block it*
*Whispers come out and form a trampoline above the NPC that bounces the Buster Sword back up to the rooftop*
*Cloud catches it, spins it around, and puts it on his back*
Johnny: W-woah, DID YOU ALL SEE THAT!? WHO NEEDS MATERIA WHEN I CAN SUMMON GHOSTS LIKE A GOD!
Johnny: *shouts at the sky* TIFA! DON'T WORRY BABE, I'M COMING IN AND SAVI-
*Shinra grunt finally backhands him with a gun*
 

Fiz

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Eh?
What saves Tifa from being "too perfect" is that she doesn't know how to handle Cloud's memory issues. It's something she doesn't know what to do with and her not dealing with them is already causing issues in the Remake... and we know it will cause more issues further down the line from the OG. Cloud's incorrect memories are something she doesn't want to handle because they are a legitimately hard issue and she inevitably makes mistakes when working out how to deal with them (or rather not deal with them).

Aerith... Aerith feels like Aerith post-Temple of the Ancients. Which... in the OG is after she has had her character development of "figuring out what it means to be a Cetra". I honestly don't know what they could do with Aerith's (personal) character development as she feels... "finished" already. Except for her Love Interest, but that really doesn't count as "character development". If I had to give her an archtype in Remake... it would be that of the Prophetess or Oracle... someone whose character revovles around them receiving words from the gods and giving it to other people... with "the gods" being the Planet and Future in this case.

Actually... it's not quite true that I can't see Aerith having "charcter development" in the Remake. What I can see happening with Aerith is an inverse of her OG character arc. Aerith's OG character arc is how the girl who has a lot of good reasons to want to be normal accepts the part of herself that isn't normal... and ends up using that to save the world. Remake Aerith's character mainly revolves around her being "not normal". I could see Remake Aerith's arc being about her accepting the part of her that is "normal" that wants the same things everyone else wants.

Simply put... in the OG (and even other Compilation titles), I felt like I knew who Aerith was when she wasn't primarily being a Cetra. In the Remake... I'm a lot less sure of who Aerith is when she isn't being a Cetra.

This is a good point, also I'd point out that in Remake she is comfortably manipulating people and is willing to take a gamble. I agree that maybe her development might be the inverse of OG, but I also wouldn't rule out something happening to her psychologically in Remake that develops her. I wouldn't rule out her surviving and someone else dying instead being at her feet.


I think Aerith's fine. What is interesting to me with the characters is that they have chosen to expand on them; as such, Aerith's role has changed in Remake. She knows definitely more, and has accepted her lineage and powers, albeit I'd say she still has to learn to listen to the Planet, but that has shifted her attitude a bit. She is still her OG self, but way less flirty with Cloud, and more someone characters will turn to by the end of the game, when she takes the lead because she obviously knows more.

Her less flirty side, I will say it's because of CC and the way Zerith was dedvelopped. In the OG, we were supposed to grasp that she still had feelings for Zack, but that has escaped many, and maybe they are driving the point home more with this Remake. Also, maybe it is due to the translations, but I didn't get the feeling of manic pixie!Aerith to be honest, she sounds very childish in French.

The question with her knowledge is more, does she learn and understands things as the game goes, or does she hide a lot? There may be a bit of both and it's to note that she seems as lost as the others once they have defeated the Whispers. I feel that there is a lot to examine carefully with Aerith, because I don't think that she knows *that* much, she seems to understand things as they come too - Sephiroth aside. We see how that works in chapter 18, imho, we see her having a long vision about Zack before and after the fights against the bosses; that should be what she sees at the very best (given her link to Zack, we can expect the clearest vision for him and also maybe they are sent by the whispers on purpose). She's the only one to see them, and takes decision according to those. We can place bets that it's how she usually goes; did she know about Cloud when she first met him, or did the knowledge come later when he fell through the church's roof? There are tons of interesting things to dissect, but she says herself that she isn't sure because every time the whispers touch her, she loses a part of herself.

I also agree with this, I think with Zack being around her romantic arc is going to revolve around Zack more.

On the last point, I think she is hiding a lot, but I also think her knowledge of the future is patchy. If she knew everything that would be too much, shes already a walking, talking Deus ex Machina without her having crystal clear knowledge of the future. I wouldn't be surprised if she has future knowledge through the lifestream in a "these are the important bits you need to know" kinda way. Like recieving a gossip.

Also, Aerith died not knowing Zacks fate, I got the impression she was shown Zack in an attempt to coax her into taking a risky gamble.

I've never understood this "Manic Pixie Aerith" thing, nor "Innocent Little Flower Aerith". I think a lot of it comes from some people interpreting her as some virginal woman child in OG. In the OG Japanese script she definitely wasn't that and was probably the most emotionally mature member of the group, she was just a little bit quirky and odd. That seems to be there in Remake too, but I think how some people interpreted her in OG has caused people to try and superimpose that on top of her a little.


My opinion is still unchanged, I intensely dislike the changes, and while the implications I see in them have become smaller, I still don't like their addition in the remake and having played through it again with a friend, and watching some more blind lets plays, I've become extra convinced that there was no need to change things just to keep it "fresh".

I've found an additional small thing that annoys me that I didn't really realize the first time I played the game.
When Cloud and company see Sephiroth in shinra HQ that's the first time Tifa sees Sephiroth since he killed her father, stabbed her, left her for dead, and took away everything she knew and loved. Unlike Cloud she never even had a hint that he was alive. And yet all she does is stumble back a bit, that scene should have been all about her, she should have lunged at him, she should have shown more anger afterwards as well while fighting him, she arguably has more reason to hate him than even Cloud. So why don't we get any emotional resolution about this? This should impact her as much as the plate or more, but it's just forgotten.
If anything remake2 HAS to address how she deals with the knowledge that Sephiroth is alive.

Also, small thing I realized, Cloud totally could have saved himself at shinra HQ if he'd just been willing to drop his buster sword and grab the beam with both hands, dude literally decided he'd rather die with the buster sword than live without it. I think we found Clouds real object of affection right there people.



Read this again after a few months, amazing how much I still agree with it.

I got the impression she was shocked, I wouldn't expect her to rush in like Cloud does, shes got a more reasoned head on her shoulders and is more of a brooding, internalising character. Stuff like this can often become "the OP fantasy versions of who we want the characters to be" rather than who they actually are. I think we will get much more development on her own grudge against Shinra and Sephiroth though, they've seeded it all nicely so far. Also, we do have to come at this with the consideration that we know the story already, not all players do and for newcomers, they don't know yet. This scene was the first time we even got a glimpse that she has shit with Sephiroth too.


I looked that scene up and I have a funny feeling that whom the party can see in HQ is not Sephiroth but just a cloaked man (perhaps with the illusionary Masamune, but I can't be a 100% sure). Cloud might be the one to have a vision of Sephiroth there, hence no visible reaction from Tifa and the party. Whereas at the end of the highway is where the party is confronted for real this time, but that entire scene with Seph dropping feathers and descending from above with a smile and a dramatic skyline as a background looks so terrifying that everybody "freezes" in fear and uncertainty. Besides, there's a category of people who tend to freeze in a life or death emergency situation, and we know that Tifa tends to internalize just about everything, and her feelings wouldn't be relevant to the plot at those particular moments, so... I don't really see a contradiction.


Oh, that would have been such a nice touch *sobs*

No, Tifa looked shocked and Aerith "snarled" at him. I think they saw him.
 

Stiggie

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Stiggie
This is a good point, also I'd point out that in Remake she is comfortably manipulating people and is willing to take a gamble. I agree that maybe her development might be the inverse of OG, but I also wouldn't rule out something happening to her psychologically in Remake that develops her. I wouldn't rule out her surviving and someone else dying instead being at her feet.




I also agree with this, I think with Zack being around her romantic arc is going to revolve around Zack more.

On the last point, I think she is hiding a lot, but I also think her knowledge of the future is patchy. If she knew everything that would be too much, shes already a walking, talking Deus ex Machina without her having crystal clear knowledge of the future. I wouldn't be surprised if she has future knowledge through the lifestream in a "these are the important bits you need to know" kinda way. Like recieving a gossip.

Also, Aerith died not knowing Zacks fate, I got the impression she was shown Zack in an attempt to coax her into taking a risky gamble.

I've never understood this "Manic Pixie Aerith" thing, nor "Innocent Little Flower Aerith". I think a lot of it comes from some people interpreting her as some virginal woman child in OG. In the OG Japanese script she definitely wasn't that and was probably the most emotionally mature member of the group, she was just a little bit quirky and odd. That seems to be there in Remake too, but I think how some people interpreted her in OG has caused people to try and superimpose that on top of her a little.




I got the impression she was shocked, I wouldn't expect her to rush in like Cloud does, shes got a more reasoned head on her shoulders and is more of a brooding, internalising character. Stuff like this can often become "the OP fantasy versions of who we want the characters to be" rather than who they actually are. I think we will get much more development on her own grudge against Shinra and Sephiroth though, they've seeded it all nicely so far. Also, we do have to come at this with the consideration that we know the story already, not all players do and for newcomers, they don't know yet. This scene was the first time we even got a glimpse that she has shit with Sephiroth too.




No, Tifa looked shocked and Aerith "snarled" at him. I think they saw him.


True that. And let's not forget that she lived for 5 years in a world where Sephiroth was dead. I can't imagine how someone would react in her feet - fear, shock, probably not anger though. Not understanding what's happening, why he's there, etc.

I would be able to accept Tifa just being shocked....IF there had been a callback. And remember, it's not like there wasn't a perfect point for it.
The game literally ended with people talking about why they're going after Sephiroth.
Cloud talks about how "Sephiroth, as long as he's still out there...I", we've seen the flashbacks through his eyes, we understand everything in his expression at that moment.

Barret talks with passion about how he's in too, "bastard wants to the destroy the planet does he? An enemy of hers is an enemy of avalanche?

Aerith gave several passionate speeches about why Sephiroth needs to be stopped.

Red XIII gave a technical reason why they'd be able to use him.

Aerith gets a scene showing her connection with Zack, Cloud gets the edge of creation, showing his fued with Sephiroth, Barret gets an emotional final scene with Marlene, showing why he is fighting.

But what did they give Tifa? The girl who literally joined a terrorist organization because of what Sephiroth did to her? Who lost everything because of Sephiroth, whose current life was basically defined by Nibleheim? Who had just learned that the cause of everything that happened to her is still alive mere hours earlier?

Well she says "need some help" during the battle, smiling. And then "what now?", "Count me in" in the final cutscene....
Really game? Not gonna touch on her motivations for a second? Not even a clenched fist close up on her face? No indication of what she's feeling at that moment? .....great storytelling.

Honestly, just the more I think about this the more it bothers me.

Edit, I just realized there is PERHAPS, one small moment where it's hinted at, and it's when Aerith asks Tifa "but what about you, how are you holding up?", to which she responds with "Oh, I'm fine", when she clearly isn't.
I originally took that as Aerith asking Tifa about how she's dealing with the whole Cloud situation, although it Could also be about the sephiroth situation.
 
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