Hope, Snow, and Empathy

[Ⓐaron]

You don't see a difference between being physically present at the scene of a crime and committing the actual crime? Because the legal system does. The former is still often a crime, but it's usually not punished anywhere near as harshly as the latter. It's the difference between being a murderer and an accomplice.

 

[Dana Scully]

You don't see a difference between being physically present at the scene of a crime and committing the actual crime? Because the legal system does. The former is still often a crime, but it's usually not punished anywhere near as harshly as the latter. It's the difference between being a murderer and an accomplice.

Uh, she helped Cloud and Barret fight their way through the reactor - killing several guards - with the full knowledge that the ultimate goal was blowing the thing to hell and gone. And don't suggest she wouldn't have been willing to plant the thing herself if Cloud hadn't, because she absolutely would have.

So yes, in this situation, I don't see a difference between what Cloud did and what Tifa did. She wasn't just 'physically present', she was a very active participant.

 

[Ⓐaron]

It doesn't matter whether she would have planted the bomb or not. She didn't plant it. The only people she attacked were Shinra guards, not civilians. There's a big legal difference between intent to commit a crime and the actual committing of said, previously hypothetical crime - if the former were actually punished as severely as the latter there would be a lot more people in prison.

She is an accomplice to terrorism. She did not actually commit the terrorism herself. There is a substantial difference. The former would still be punished, but it would almost certainly not be punished as severely. Well, not in any society that actually obeyed its own laws, anyway; I guess there's a case to be made that if such a thing happened in U.S. the government would probably just disregard its own laws and stick everyone in prison indefinitely without charging them.

 

[Mariketsu]

Imo, Hope was a little annoying at first but that was because, as was mentioned, he's just a kid. Considering that he probably lived a somewhat sheltered life, suddenly being thrown into the fire from the pan would generate that kind of reaction and I agree with the person who said he was blaming Snow to cope with losing his mother. He was angry, hurt and inwardly raging over her loss and he wouldn't exactly cope well due to his age. He did grow up a bit tho which is good as he needed to learn to be strong now that she was gone.

As for Snow, he said himself during his confrontation with Hope, he actually was running away from it all in his own way, trying to find answers in light of the people who were lost.

Most of all, he was in his own turmoil about Serah and yes, even if he did get annoying with how he would monologue about her, it's because he really loved her and really believed in her as well as the group. Serah was the primary reason he was still going and second were the people around him. Personally, I don't think Snow literally tries to be the hero, I think it's moreso just being a good person, even if he does try a tad too hard at times. He just wants to make something of his life and do as much as he can and is naturally good-hearted. I can see why alot of peeps were annoyed by him, but I happen to like the guy xD.

Serah well, as some said, not much of her was shown so it's hard to say if she was likeable or not, but I did like what I saw of her so far.

So yeah, that's my thoughts and no, I didn't really feel like reading the last 12 pages of responses so sorry if I repeated alot of stuff xD.

~ Raz

 

[Dana Scully]

It doesn't matter whether she would have planted the bomb or not. She didn't plant it. The only people she attacked were Shinra guards, not civilians. There's a big legal difference between intent to commit a crime and the actual committing of said, previously hypothetical crime - if the former were actually punished as severely as the latter there would be a lot more people in prison.

She is an accomplice to terrorism. She did not actually commit the terrorism herself. There is a substantial difference. The former would still be punished, but it would almost certainly not be punished as severely. Well, not in any society that actually obeyed its own laws, anyway; I guess there's a case to be made that if such a thing happened in U.S. the government would probably just disregard its own laws and stick everyone in prison indefinitely without charging them.

I'm not very educated about law, so I'll take your word on the legal stuff. But even if there's a difference here legally, I don't see any difference morally. It's not like she was just thinking about blowing up a reactor; she assisted in every way she could to help blow it up. In the No 5 reactor, she set the bomb as much as Cloud did.

Also, she 'only' killed Shinra guards. Does that somehow not put any blood on her hands?

 

[Dana Scully]

Not to mention there's absolutely no evidence she killed anyone there.

Especially since she's just fighting barehanded. All you can do is make assumptions, but it doesn't make any sense to assume avalanche killed everyone they fought.

Do you really think any fight between people with guns and giant swords and ridiculous hand-to-hand combat training isn't going to end with some deaths? I'm not trying to suggest they murdered everyone, but when someone's trying to kill you it's really fucking hard to stop them without killing them.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

I'm gonna step in here and go somewhere in the middle ground (and I think both sides can at least agree on this)

Tifa shares responsibility for what happened. Reeve calls them on this, (and Tifa doesn't step in to say 'Well I didn't plant the bomb', and Tifa herself does as well. If I joined Al-Queda tomorrow, whether I kill anybody or plant any IED or not, I'm still at least somewhat of a piece of shit just like they are.

I remember my recruiter telling the Navy recruits to not get in trouble, and even if we try hide behind the 'Well I didn't do anything' defense if we at the scene of a crime being committed (a drug bust, DUI, etc etc), it doesn't fucking matter, we're still going to be charged AND handed our dishonorable discharge papers to top it off. Tifa is an accomplice to some grimy shit. She shares responsibility. That much is undeniable.

HOWEVER

It's not really Tifa's fight, it's Barrets. Even playing as a kid, I felt that Tifa always felt like sort of a hanger on in AVALANCHE's schemes and plans, with the brunt of the blame going to Barret and his buddies. Remember the surprise that Cloud (and the players) must have had when Tifa suggested to go with you on the second reactor trip? The whole thing really isn't her battle as much as it is Barret's.

While Tifa is an accomplish to terrorism, she just sort of...helps.

Also, it's pretty easy to knock someone out without killing them with blunt force. Especially if you're some superhuman freak.

As a sidebar, you'd be surprised at the relative ease that the human body collapses and dies under blunt trauma. While I agree with the spirit of what you're trying to say, history has proven the human body is pretty relatively fragile in the regard of trying/trying not to kill someone.

However yeah a trained martial artist would have a proper appreciation and skill on distribution of force, so Tifa's bodycount is relatively low, I'm sure.


I LIKE THE SCIENCE OF PUNCHING PEOPLE OKAY

 

[Max Payne]

As a sidebar, you'd be surprised at the relative ease that the human body collapses and dies under blunt trauma. While I agree with the spirit of what you're trying to say, history has proven the human body is pretty relatively fragile in the regard of trying/trying not to kill someone.

Yeah, when people aren't wearing helmets and body armor

 

[Makoeyes987]

I feel I just gotta jump in this a bit. A few things caught my eye that hadn't been raised.

T
It's true that the explosion was intended to be smaller, but Barret and Tifa do admit that they'd expected some civilian casualties (Barret says this in the original game when Reeve/Cait Sith calls him out over the civilians who died when the first reactor blew, and Case of Tifa says "She had considered a small number of sacrifices unavoidable for the sake of a greater purpose"). I also don't remember anything about the timing of the attack being at night specifically to minimize civilian losses rather than to cover their mission. If you have a reference for that, let me know.

I remember them saying something similar like that as well. NPC dialogue if I remember correctly. I believe it was either Jessie or Tifa who said that. I don't know if anyone can confirm that for sure, but I certainly don't think Forcestealer's been broadcasting his thoughts into my head.

As YACCBS asked, how can you even know that they didn't evaluate the dude? Yeah, sending him to Nibelheim for such a shitty little mission was overkill, but for all we know, he was sent on such an easy mission because he was given a psych exam and a psychiatrist at Shin-Ra considered the loss of his friends.

Considering of what we see of Sephiroth's supervision and control in CC and BC (i.e. there was none at all) it's not much of a stretch to assume the last thing they had on their mind regarding Sephiroth was his mental stability or health. Sephiroth's evaluations were all in regards to battle performance and efficiency. Do you really think Hojo gave a shit about Sephiroth's mental health and safety?

Hojo relished the idea of an unstoppable monster who could kill and conquer in the blink of an eye. Considering his lack of ethics and regard for human emotions, why would he even bother ensuring Sephiroth was mentally fit for combat? No other SOLDIER got that treatment either.

Maybe someone suggested giving him some easy stuff for a while, or perhaps suggested sending him off to a quiet little country town for some R&R. Should that town have been Nibelheim? No. Hell no.

Again, going by Crisis Core, the only reason he got sent there, was because most of the SOLDIER 1st Class were busy tied up fighting Genesis's copy army and Sephiroth's record of excellence was an awesome way of ensuring the important assets of the reactor were protected from Genesis and his cronies.

The last thing on their mind was R&R for Sephy. Shinra definitely has culpability in terms of how they treated Sephiroth and basically gave fuck all of a shit regarding how dangerously powerful and brutal he was.

While we're talking about stupid organization decisions, by the way, Avalanche really should have just marched up the stairs of the Shin-Ra headquarters before even screwing around with reactors given how easy it was to get close to the executives.

...What?

How was it easy? They had to climb a mass of reckage and debris to the top of the plate. The only reason they were able to get there was because of the Sector 7 plate dropping and the opening it gave them. Not only that but usually, the Turks and SOLDIER were stationed around the Shinra Tower but due to circumstances at that time, they wren't there.

It was only through circumstance it was easy at that time. And it wasn't really that easy.

Not that I'm disagreeing that Shin-Ra didn't know about what went on in the mansion, but Hojo kept a lot of things to himself. The other executives hadn't even seen Gast's report on the WEAPONs and JENOVA.

They shouldn't have had a clearly unstable and cruel bastard like Hojo overseeing Sephiroth's growth and development. They clearly weren't interested in seeing Sephiroth as a human being. Only an experiment.

I think that definitely gives them culpability regarding Nibelheim.

 

[Max Payne]

Ahhh fuck it, I'm ducking out of this one.

Not like this shit matters anyway.

 

[ForceStealer]

Snow's a retard for letting regular civilians with no experience on the battlefield volunteer.

You're right, THAT's what Hope should have yelled at Snow for. 'How dare you allow my mother to act as her heart told her to do you bastard.'
I don't think any of those people died due to inexperience either. They died because the freaking bridge fell apart. They actually did pretty damn well for themselves. Nora seemed to know how to use that grenade launcher pretty effectively.

So they weren't even trying to directly target the people in charge at Shin-Ra (which actually points to crap planning on their part, but I'll get into that more later). They were targeting a building valuable to them and accepting the collateral damage that came with it.

Um no, they targeted the building and accepted collateral damage because the reactors were destroying the Planet. Revenge against the Shinra was a bonus, and may have been their primary motivation, but they were STILL correct about the reactors and what they were doing.

As for the raid at night thing, I, like Mako, recall hearing it somewhere. But I am not sure at the moment and I'm about to go to bed. But I will look into it tomorrow.

She found herself under the tutelage of a terrorist bent on taking down Shin-Ra by accident?

You don't think she sought Avalanche out? She even admits in Case of Tifa that the whole anti-mako thing was a way of hiding her true motivations. Maybe I'm wrong, but I took that to indicate that she learned about Avalanche and their claims concerning Shin-Ra through their posters/flyers, then sought the group out to join them so she could have help getting her revenge.

This is all assumption, so who knows. She could have found herself in the slums and needed work and so applied and 7th Heaven for work and got involved that way. Who knows. It also doesn't really matter because Shinra is STILL a more reasonable target than Snow.

and then getting turned into a l'Cie himself (which he felt was a situation Snow had dragged them all into)

Which is another reason to find the kid infuriating. He flew into the fucking Fal'cie, what the hell did he expect to happen? Blaming Snow for that is an even bigger stretch than what he was already blaming Snow for.

Which Hope didn't know about.

Yeah, hence the smiley smart-aleck.

By the way, almost everyone's misusing "empathy" in this thread, including in the thread title.

Untrue, at least in my - and the thread title's - case. You'll notice I have not once denied sympathizing with Hope, his mom died in front of him, I get that. I have said I am unable to empathize with him, that his, follow his line of thinking and feelings because they're nonsense.

Or if you'd prefer I be an asshole :

Empathy
–noun
1. the intellectual identification with or vicarious experiencing of the feelings, thoughts, or attitudes of another.

You don't have to have experienced what a given person/character is experiencing to empathize with them.

Should Shin-Ra have helped the survivors instead of sticking them in a lab to be experimented on (which Tifa didn't even know about for years)? Yes. Should the executives have offered a gun and blindfolds to Tifa while getting down on their knees? No.

Nor did she seek it. She went after Sephiroth. Blowing up reactors took place 5 years later. You were the one who originally made the distinction that Tifa's and Hope's actions were different due to the time lapse dude. Tifa didn't do a damn thing against the Shinra (nor have we been told she even planned to) until there was a motive (or even an excuse) to do so.

But once again, it wouldn't matter to me even if she had, because as Dacon so summarily put it:

Tifa had good reason for her hate and holding Shinra responsible for what happened. Hope didn't have good reason for blaming Snow and wanting him dead.

 

[Tennyo]

A boomerang?! Of all the cool weapons in Final Fantasy XIII - guns, swords, gunswords - why does Hope choose a boomerang? Because he's an idiot, that's why. You can't expect much more from a twerp whose only form of self-expression are whining and crying.

I guess GameInformer doesn't watch Nickelodeon.

Because a boomerang as a weapon isn't all that bad. At least it's not a ball, amirite?

 

[Dana Scully]

Also, just want to add that at one point Hope does say this:

"It's not just Snow I'm after, the Sanctum has to pay too."

So it's not like he doesn't blame the Sanctum too.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I'm Batman wrote:
Are you talking the one truly heated moment she ever had RIGHT after her father is brutally murdered by King Shit of Shinra himself? She wasn't thinking straight and she eventually evolved past personal revenge not long after. Comparing that to Hope's completely illogical single minded quest against Snow for something he didn't even do is silly. Not to mention kinda retarded.

Tifa disagrees with you in Case of Tifa. See below:

Case of Tifa wrote:
And then Sephiroth, whom Shinra had dispatched in response, killed her father. She hated Shinra and Sephiroth so much it hurt. Then she joined Avalanche. Yes. started with my own personal grudge. The anti-Shinra, anti-mako slogans Avalanche adopted were the perfect way to mask her true motives. But the loss of life was too great, even when weighed against the planet they were trying to save. And if it was all for one person's revenge...

The guilt waited its turn deep in her heart.

Disagrees with me how? If anything it reinforces my point for fucks sake. She grew past her revenge not long after, and she didn't have some completely illogical reason for hating them.

It disagrees because you said Tifa got past her personal grudge by the time she was blowing up reactors, and Tifa herself says she didn't. She even says that whole "mako is bad for the environment" bit was a way of hiding what was really going on with her, i.e. that she hadn't gotten past her personal grudge.

I've already addressed the bullshit about psych evaluations, because had they actually done them, GUESS WHAT, THEY WOULD HAVE KNOWN SOMETHING WAS WRONG. You don't give a dude an evaluation and not notice the shit that wrong with them. Supposition or not, that's common sense. There's never any inclination that they're even that thorough.

So they perform some kind of psych test before you can get into SOLDIER, but then they never perform any ever again for sitting personnel? Really? That's common sense?

For that matter, aren't those tests supposed to indicate that continued exposure to the same stimuli/environment a soldier has been experiencing may lead to a psychotic break? Or that there's an existing chemical imbalance or something wrong in there? I don't think they're supposed to predict what would happen if Seph were sent on a specific mission to a specific location to encounter a specific stimuli that he couldn't encounter anywhere else.

Herp derp. The point is that blood ain't directly on her hands because she never actively planted any bombs or helped make the plans to plant them. She was just there. She holds some responsibility for not stopping them maybe.

Why would she stop them? She's one of them. She's not just their party buddy. She's not just got the happenin' place to hang out. They live there with her. She provides them a headquarters and resources. She identifies herself as one of them, both to Cloud ("Listen, Cloud. I'm asking you. Please join us") and Rufus (Barret: "I'm from AVALANCHE!"; Tifa: "Same here!"), and Case of Tifa says the same:

"And as a consequence, countless lives were lost--indirectly or not--because of Avalanche.

And Tifa was a member."

Seriouly, people being argumentative for the hell of it, or just cuz you love Hope oh so much?

To be honest, I do like Hope a lot. I also love Snow and Tifa. These are three of my favorite FF characters. Just so that's clear with everybody.

You don't see a difference between being physically present at the scene of a crime and committing the actual crime? Because the legal system does.

There's quite a difference between being in your local Kwik-E-Mart when it gets held up and fighting through guards to enter a secured facility so that you and some people you've chosen to go with -- and have planned this with -- can blow the facility up.

For that matter, if bank robbers get caught, the guy who actually put the money in the bag isn't going to get different treatment from the guys who just held guns or did lookout duty.

She is an accomplice to terrorism. She did not actually commit the terrorism herself.

Then who did? Jessie for making the bomb? But she didn't plant it. Cloud then, for planting it? But he didn't plan the operation, nor did he really care about their cause at the time. Well, who did plan it?

That brings us back to the whole group, including Tifa.

Really, what defines "committing an act of terrorism" if participating in a terrorist unit ripping through guards to plant a destructive device in a building doesn't? She was there to get the job done as much as any of the rest of them, and unlike Cloud, it was more than a job to her.

If you're going to excuse Tifa from being considered a terrorist, then you have to do the same for Barret, and for the same reason. And that's obviously absurd.

They were all terrorists, plain and simple.

I remember them saying something similar like that as well. NPC dialogue if I remember correctly. I believe it was either Jessie or Tifa who said that. I don't know if anyone can confirm that for sure, but I certainly don't think Forcestealer's been broadcasting his thoughts into my head.

Sounds like a Fag Uni-mind to me. In any case, you guys are probably thinking of this quote and confusing it with that other idea:

An' that ain't all!! A lotta innocent people got killed too!
If the explosion had been in the middle of the night, that woulda been one thing. At least the people coulda gone in their sleep.
This Mako explosion has really sent Midgar into a fit.

This specifically says it didn't happen in the middle of the night, so losses probably weren't minimized as much as they could have been.

Again, going by Crisis Core, the only reason he got sent there, was because most of the SOLDIER 1st Class were busy tied up fighting Genesis's copy army and Sephiroth's record of excellence was an awesome way of ensuring the important assets of the reactor were protected from Genesis and his cronies.

The last thing on their mind was R&R for Sephy. Shinra definitely has culpability in terms of how they treated Sephiroth and basically gave fuck all of a shit regarding how dangerously powerful and brutal he was.

If Dacon can state that an unproven thing absolutely did/didn't happen, then I can at least suggest that this went down in an attempt to cater to the need he says was undeniably there.

...What?

Just saying they could have taken out the execs as easily as they did that first reactor. Doesn't pertain to the main discussion here, but it is a lack of logical planning on their part that occurred to me.

How was it easy? They had to climb a mass of reckage and debris to the top of the plate. The only reason they were able to get there was because of the Sector 7 plate dropping and the opening it gave them. Not only that but usually, the Turks and SOLDIER were stationed around the Shinra Tower but due to circumstances at that time, they wren't there.

Sector 7 wasn't adjacent to Sector 5, where Wall Market is, so they probably climbed up through an unfinished section bordering Sector 6. And they only had to do that because of the heightened security at that time in response to their other activities.

Really, as the bombing of the first reactor shows, they had pretty easy access to the upper plate. And CC definitely didn't make it look hard to walk up to the headquarters either.

Which is another reason to find the kid infuriating. He flew into the fucking Fal'cie, what the hell did he expect to happen? Blaming Snow for that is an even bigger stretch than what he was already blaming Snow for.

I'll grant you that blaming him for that is a stretch. It's not hard to see why he did, though, given everything else.

Untrue, at least in my - and the thread title's - case. You'll notice I have not once denied sympathizing with Hope, his mom died in front of him, I get that. I have said I am unable to empathize with him, that his, follow his line of thinking and feelings because they're nonsense.

Or if you'd prefer I be an asshole :

Empathy
–noun
1. the intellectual identification with or vicarious experiencing of the feelings, thoughts, or attitudes of another.

You don't have to have experienced what a given person/character is experiencing to empathize with them.

You still have to understand it -- and short of experiencing it yourself or performing a Vulcan mind-meld or some shit, you're not going to be able to intellectually identify with them.

Nor did she seek it. She went after Sephiroth. Blowing up reactors took place 5 years later. You were the one who originally made the distinction that Tifa's and Hope's actions were different due to the time lapse dude.

I pointed the time lapse out as the reason she wasn't presently expressing grief -- better known as whining when FF characters do it -- despite it still influencing her thoughts and behavior years later. I specifically compared it to Hope's Operation Nora phase, which came after the initial grief.

Tifa didn't do a damn thing against the Shinra (nor have we been told she even planned to) until there was a motive (or even an excuse) to do so.

Yet, as she herself admitted, she definitely did when an excuse presented itself.

But once again, it wouldn't matter to me even if she had, because as Dacon so summarily put it ...

So you agree with Dacon that there's a more obvious connection between a soldier and the organization he is part of (even when acting independently and against their wishes) than a specific battle and the specific person who started it?

 

[Max Payne]

What fucking part of I'm ducking out do you not understand?

I even deleted my goddamn post because I don't want to argue anymore.

For fucks sake.

 

[Ⓐaron]

I'm not very educated about law, so I'll take your word on the legal stuff. But even if there's a difference here legally, I don't see any difference morally. It's not like she was just thinking about blowing up a reactor; she assisted in every way she could to help blow it up. In the No 5 reactor, she set the bomb as much as Cloud did.

No, she didn't. She didn't plant the bomb, she didn't make the bomb, she didn't plan the operation, she didn't even carry the fucking bomb. All she did was knock out a few guards.

Also, she 'only' killed Shinra guards. Does that somehow not put any blood on her hands?

There's no evidence that Tifa killed anyone. Indeed since she's fighting with her bare hands and most of them have full body armour the odds that she killed anyone are pretty small. When people disappear in FF games that's usually just assumed to mean they've been knocked unconscious. Unless you want to imply that Locke killed all the merchants he stole clothing from in FFVI, which is patently absurd.

There's quite a difference between being in your local Kwik-E-Mart when it gets held up and fighting through guards to enter a secured facility so that you and some people you've chosen to go with -- and have planned this with -- can blow the facility up.

For that matter, if bank robbers get caught, the guy who actually put the money in the bag isn't going to get different treatment from the guys who just held guns or did lookout duty.

That's retarded. Theft and terrorism/murder are not legally comparable. Someone who knowingly drives a murderer to the scene of a murder is not punished as harshly as the murderer is. Tifa's guilty of assaulting a few guards, and of being an accomplice to terrorism. But she didn't bomb anyone herself. The person who plans an act of terrorism or plants a bomb will absolutely be punished more harshly than a person who just knocks out a few guards. Knocking a few guards unconscious and planting a bomb that kills several dozen people are completely different acts.

Then who did? Jessie for making the bomb? But she didn't plant it. Cloud then, for planting it? But he didn't plan the operation, nor did he really care about their cause at the time. Well, who did plan it?

Tifa certainly didn't do any of those things, so the people who did them certainly bear more culpability than she does.

That brings us back to the whole group, including Tifa.

Really, what defines "committing an act of terrorism" if participating in a terrorist unit ripping through guards to plant a destructive device in a building doesn't?

What defines committing an act of terrorism is actually committing an act of terrorism. Knocking out a few guards isn't a terrorist act, otherwise everyone who knocked out a guard when breaking out of jail would be labelled a fucking terrorist rather than just an escaped criminal. As stated, she is an accomplice to terrorism. But just because she was with them and supported their goals doesn't mean she did anything that can be counted as terrorism itself. Support of a crime, or even being present when the crime is committed, is not the same as actually committing the crime oneself.

She was there to get the job done as much as any of the rest of them, and unlike Cloud, it was more than a job to her.

So? Intent to commit a crime is not the same thing as committing a crime. Intent to commit a crime isn't always even a crime unless it's acted on, although there are exceptions and terrorism is often one of them.

If you're going to excuse Tifa from being considered a terrorist, then you have to do the same for Barret, and for the same reason. And that's obviously absurd.

They were all terrorists, plain and simple.

Barret... planned the operation, didn't he? I've not played the game in five years so I could be misremembering, but if he planned the operation that certainly makes him much more culpable than someone who knocked out a couple guards and otherwise had nothing to do with any of it.

 

[Elisa Maza]

I don't understand why Tifa shouldn't be this angry, vengeful, bitter terrorist she was in the beginning. Apart from taking away lots of her character, her flaws that make her so interested, so endearing (to my eyes, at least), it also takes her *character evolution and struggle* away; she felt the full impact of her actions when Shin-Ra bombed Midgar, killing all these people and she started questioning the whole deal and how her vengeance hurts other people.

It just baffles me. Why do you want to take this away from her?

 

[Ⓐaron]

People aren't saying Tifa isn't "angry, vengeful, bitter" at the start of the game nor are they saying that she isn't a member of an organisation that is involved in terrorism. We are just saying that she, personally, hasn't committed any terrorist acts; she is at most an accomplice to terrorism whose involvement ends at the assault of several Shinra guards.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Again, what is the difference between being part of the unit and willing to blow the place up herself and taking part in the planning (even recruiting an additional member to the group who did the actual planting right in front of her) ... and being an actual terrorist?

Also, people knocked out in the reactor would have died when it blew up. Just saying.

 

[Ⓐaron]

The difference is that one person pulls the trigger that kills hundreds of people, while the other person does not. Intent to commit murder is not murder. Assistance to a murderer is not murder. It's accomplice to murder.

For an example from the Norwegian justice system, Snorre Ruch drove Varg Vikernes to Oslo where the latter was convicted of murdering Øystein Aarseth (although Vikernes claimed it was self-defence, but this did not hold up in court; he also claimed Ruch was simply "in the wrong place at the wrong time"). The former of these was given a prison sentence for his role as an accomplice, but it was much shorter than Vikernes' (eight years for Ruch in comparison to the maximum twenty-one for Vikernes, although he only served sixteen). This is customary in pretty much every country's justice system that I'm aware of.

And again, Tifa did not set off the bomb that is presumed to have killed the guards. She simply knocked them out. While it can be argued that they would not have died if they had not been knocked out, this is extremely unlikely as their job was in fact to guard the reactor and thus they would have been there regardless of whether they were unconscious or not.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I'm really not that interested in legal distinctions and wankery, to be honest. I'm looking at it from a simple moral point of view -- she was a willing part of it and would have blasted the place herself if she had been the last one standing.


By the way, Dacon, sorry. I started replying before you edited your post and came back to it and finished hours later.

 

[minimosey]

The "legal" argument seems really weak to me because the legal system is made to deal with the real world, where intent cannot always be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. For example, in the real world, if two burglars encounter a guard and one shoots the guard, s/he's now guilty of felony-murder. The other burglar is now an accomplice to it, but they didn't shoot the gun and you cannot prove that they would have shot the guard. THAT'S why they don't get the same severity in punishment. Like the example you gave: the killer himself covered for Ruch and claimed he was innocent of any intent. (Interestingly, there was a felony-murder where the get-away driver actually WAS sentenced to death before the Supreme Court decided it was nuts because he couldn't have known beforehand that the murder would occur: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enmund_v._Florida.)

But a story is not the real world, and we typically know the intent behind character's actions. We know Tifa's intent, we know she was perfectly fine with the bomb being set and what happened as a result at reactor 5. We are given no reason to believe she would NOT have set the bomb had the job fallen to her. She is every bit as guilty as Cloud or Barret, and the narrative even presents her as such; there's never any attempt to excuse her that I can remember.

 

[Ⓐaron]

I'm really not that interested in legal distinctions and wankery, to be honest. I'm looking at it from a simple moral point of view -- she was a willing part of it and would have blasted the place herself if she had been the last one standing.

Oh, I think there's little doubt on that last point. But she still wasn't the one who set the bomb, and that's an important distinction whether you think it is or not. Saying someone who hasn't actually personally carried out any terrorist acts is a terrorist because they would have committed the act if they were the only one left standing is pretty daft. It's a big stretch of the commonly perceived meaning of the word "terrorism." A terrorist is generally perceived as a person who kills others for political purposes, and in this case Tifa didn't kill anyone.

But a story is not the real world, and we typically know the intent behind character's actions. We know Tifa's intent, we know she was perfectly fine with the bomb being set and what happened as a result at reactor 5. We are given no reason to believe she would NOT have set the bomb had the job fallen to her. She is every bit as guilty as Cloud or Barret, and the narrative even presents her as such; there's never any attempt to excuse her that I can remember.

A person who does not set a bomb is not "every bit as guilty" of setting the bomb as someone who set the bomb regardless of whether she had the intent of setting the bomb or not. You're only guilty of actions you've actually committed. The narrative doesn't make excuses for her, but it also doesn't pretend that she set the bomb. She didn't. Even if it could be proven beyond reasonable doubt in a court of law that Tifa had every intention of setting the bomb, she still couldn't be convicted of setting the bomb, because she didn't set it. The most she could be convicted of is intention to set a bomb. A person cannot be considered guilty of an action they have not performed.

 

[Ⓐaron]

I also want to add that saying that someone who would have committed a murder in other circumstances is morally exactly the same as a murderer is some serious Thought Police shit that I might expect from someone like DLPB or the Catholic Church, but not from anyone else. You're not a murderer until you actually carry out a murder.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I think the problem here is that you're all caught up in legal terminology of the real world when the rest of us are making no distinction between individals since they were a team -- united in thought and objective, getting each others' backs and ensuring that the goal of the group (not an individual) was reached.

It was a team effort and, as a team, they share the blame.

By the way, I think a terrorist is actually defined as someone who conducts dramatic, public displays that incite unrest for political purposes. Just blowing shit up qualifies. Obviously killing people is an effective route to this end as well, but it is by no means a requirement for meeting the use of the term.