Hope, Snow, and Empathy

[Max Payne]

Did you actually read what I said or just herp derped your way straight to the reply button? I said she doesn't know about all the shit Shinra's done like sucking life out of the planet, experiments, rebuilding Nibelheim, etc. Of course she knows Shinra sent Sephiroth - to clean up the monsters that were terrorizing the town/fix the broken reactor, those evil bastards. Again, saying the actions of Sephiroth reflect the entire Shinra organization is not. rational. It doesn't matter how you spin it, the fact is Sephiroth was acting alone when he blew up Nibelheim.

Apparently you can't read. I didn't even factor all of that into it. I said she's right in blaming them because of what they did. They sent Sephiroth there, he had to come there because of Shinra's reactor. IT'S THEIR FAULT for sending the monster, and his fault for killing everyone. It's rational. Sephiroth is a representative of shinra, hell he's their shining hero. He wouldn't have been there if it wasn't for them.

I'm not trying to blame Tifa for hating Shinra. I understand why she did it. I'm saying it's not rational, and that Hope wasn't rational, and that people don't do rational shit after traumatic events like the sudden loss of a parent.

Except it is rational to blame the company that destroyed her village by sending their maniac swordsman. No matter what you say, they are responsible for their employees and their actions.

If one of the military's people go nuts and kills an assload of civilians they're responsible for it and they take that responsibility. They try and make up for not seeing it coming and try and help those that suffered because of it.

Actually the amount of similarities between the two situations is surprising.

The similarities are minute and mostly end at the fact that it's about revenge.

 

[Dana Scully]

Apparently you can't read. I didn't even factor all of that into it. I said she's right in blaming them because of what they did. They sent Sephiroth there, he had to come there because of Shinra's reactor. IT'S THEIR FAULT for sending the monster, and his fault for killing everyone. It's rational. Sephiroth is a representative of shinra, hell he's their shining hero. He wouldn't have been there if it wasn't for them.

Wtf, they didn't send a monster. They sent a perfectly sane supersoldier who had a perfect record and was what every young kid hoped they could be some day. It's not Shinra's fault that Sephiroth decided that Nibelheim was a nice place to lose his sanity.

Except it is rational to blame the company that destroyed her village by sending their maniac swordsman. No matter what you say, they are responsible for their employees and their actions.

I feel like I'm a broken record here. They didn't send a "maniac swordsman". Sure, they're responsible for their employees, but how were they to know that Sephiroth was going to snap?

If one of the military's people go nuts and kills an assload of civilians they're responsible for it and they take that responsibility. They try and make up for not seeing it coming and try and help those that suffered because of it.

Yes, they do. Except Shinra is evil and doesn't give a fuck, which we know - but Tifa, at this point, does not.

The similarities are minute and mostly end at the fact that it's about revenge.

- both characters are young (14/15)
- both characters lose a parent in a decidely abrupt, brutal fashion
- there is an individual (Snow/Seph) and a corporation (PSICOM/Shinra) that are both involved
- both characters decide to get all vengeful, but direct it at the wrong party (which I know you don't agree with)

 

[Obsidian Fire]

^^Most people wouldn't draw that connection between the two of them, but yeah, it makes sense to me.

 

[Max Payne]

Wtf, they didn't send a monster. They sent a perfectly sane supersoldier who had a perfect record and was what every young kid hoped they could be some day. It's not Shinra's fault that Sephiroth decided that Nibelheim was a nice place to lose his sanity.



I feel like I'm a broken record here. They didn't send a "maniac swordsman". Sure, they're responsible for their employees, but how were they to know that Sephiroth was going to snap?



Yes, they do. Except Shinra is evil and doesn't give a fuck, which we know - but Tifa, at this point, does not.

THEY DID SEND A MONSTER. LOOK WHAT HE FUCKING DID. THIS IS THE GUY WHO CAN TAKE OUT ENTIRE ARMIES AND PLATOONS ON HIS OWN. IT'S LIKE YOU'RE DELIBERATELY BEING OBTUSE. He obviously is a maniac swordsman.

Sephiroth is a dedicated soldier who has seen tons of action. Not to mention he's a fucking social pariah who lost both of his best friends. They didn't think to give the man psych evaluations? Try to keep him from things that would be sensitive to his mind? Liek, I DUNNO THE SHINRA MANSION.

Sephiroth is their man, they're responsible for his actions. It's their fault.

- both characters are young (14/15)
- both characters lose a parent in a decidely abrupt, brutal fashion
- there is an individual (Snow/Seph) and a corporation (PSICOM/Shinra) that are both involved
- both characters decide to get all vengeful, but direct it at the wrong party (which I know you don't agree with)

Tifa wasn't 15. How could she have been? The nibelheim incident doesn't happen that long before FF7 right, and she's 21 in that game.

Shinra is responsible for the Nibelheim incident. It's their fault. Wrong party my ass.

Tifa doesn't only lose her father too, she lost everything, her home, her town, her friends. The similarties between their situations are superfluous at most. Tifa has a clear cause and reason for her hate for Sephiroth and co. Hope did not.

There's nothing irrational about blaming the people responsible for a man's actions, especially when they're just as much the cause of his actions. If Shinra hadn't sent him there, then the event would never have happened.

 

[ForceStealer]

Also, Tifa only SAYS she hates Shinra. The only person she actually exacts revenge against (or tries to) is Sephiroth. She takes no action against the Shinra (nor do we have any particular reason to believe that she would have) until she learns of what else they are doing under Barret's tutelage.

 

[Max Payne]

There's that too. I suppose she was 15 according to the Ultimania. But eh.

Points stand.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Tifa wasn't 15. How could she have been? The nibelheim incident doesn't happen that long before FF7 right, and she's 21 in that game.

Wasn't she? She's 20 in FF7, and the incident happened 5 years ago.

 

[Max Payne]

Yeah, I just went and read everything over. Look above your post.

 

[Joker]

I'm not going to read this thread, because it's probably not very interesting, simply based on seeing the word "Tifa" in a FFXIII thread. So instead, I'll just respond to this post from the beginning:

Snow is just an ignorant manchild who stopped mentally growing at 13.

BUT I'M A HERO :<

 

[ForceStealer]

Saying it's more rational than what Hope did isn't saying much. Remember, no one argued that Hope was being rational about the whole thing, just that there was some basis - if a weak one - for him going after Snow.

And that's what I'm saying, it's too weak, too irrational for me to share his emotions or at least empathize with how he sees it. The objects of Tifa's blame all seem much more directly related to Mr. Lockhart's death than Snow does to Nora's.

Also, Tifa only SAYS she hates Shinra.

And to emphasize, it would make perfect sense for Hope to dislike Snow, or even hate him, it's the BLAMING him I can't connect with.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Yeah, I just went and read everything over. Look above your post.

Oh, whoops, my bad.

Sephiroth is a dedicated soldier who has seen tons of action. Not to mention he's a fucking social pariah who lost both of his best friends. They didn't think to give the man psych evaluations? Try to keep him from things that would be sensitive to his mind? Liek, I DUNNO THE SHINRA MANSION.

Yeah this is true. It actually does take a bit of thinking to realize that Nibelhiem is the last place Sephiroth had any business being assigned to, ever.

There's absolutely no reason why Shinra should have sent him there; hell, there's no reason why Sephiroth was even necessary for that mission in the first place; even with the dismantling of SOLDIER by that point in time (which wasn't even a plot point that was thought of in that point in time back in 1997), there's no reason why SOLDIER, the Turks, or even the regular Shinra Army couldn't have performed that mission.

 

[Max Payne]

Yeah, Shinra sending Sephiroth was fucking retarded.

 

[Dana Scully]

THEY DID SEND A MONSTER. LOOK WHAT HE FUCKING DID. THIS IS THE GUY WHO CAN TAKE OUT ENTIRE ARMIES AND PLATOONS ON HIS OWN. IT'S LIKE YOU'RE DELIBERATELY BEING OBTUSE. He obviously is a maniac swordsman.

When did he ever show any signs of being insane before Nibelheim? He was good at his job, OH NO HOW TERRIBLE. Of course you're going to send an overpowered soldier to clean up monsters like dragons and god knows what else.

Sephiroth is a dedicated soldier who has seen tons of action. Not to mention he's a fucking social pariah who lost both of his best friends. They didn't think to give the man psych evaluations?

Now you're just making assumptions. Who said they didn't give him psych evals on a regular basis? Do you really think he wouldn't have passed them before Nibelheim? Like you said, he's a dedicated soldier - a professional. While the loss of Angeal and Genesis would no doubt upset him to some degree, he's not the kind of character who would let it interfere with his job.

Try to keep him from things that would be sensitive to his mind? Liek, I DUNNO THE SHINRA MANSION.

I agree, it's a stupid oversight. But I assume the only person who really knew what was down there was Hojo, and the mansion hadn't been used in years (decades? anyone know how long exactly?), so it's easy to see it being forgotten.

Sephiroth is their man, they're responsible for his actions. It's their fault.

I'm sorry, but this is a fucking stupid thing to say. In order to be responsible they would have had to have some idea this could happen, and what indicators did Sephiroth ever give that he was going to snap so suddenly and so violently?

Shinra is responsible for the Nibelheim incident. It's their fault. Wrong party my ass.

Whether they're responsible isn't even the point. The point is that Tifa blames Shinra just for being associated with Sephiroth, without knowing anything else about them except that they provide her shitty little country town with power. It's an irrational jump in logic that just happens to be justified because Shinra is indeed evil.

Tifa doesn't only lose her father too, she lost everything, her home, her town, her friends.

Goood point. Though Hope loses his home, town, and friends as soon as becomes a l'Cie - they aren't dead, but they all would be happy to see HIM dead - which is pretty much right after he loses his mom. All he's left with is a dad who hasn't really shown much interest his life, but I suppose that's more than Tifa can say.

Tifa has a clear cause and reason for her hate for Sephiroth and co. Hope did not.

Hope has a reason, but it's very irrational. Tifa has a slightly better reason, but it's still irrational as well.

There's nothing irrational about blaming the people responsible for a man's actions, especially when they're just as much the cause of his actions.

Shinra was not responsible for Sephiroth going crazy. I'm sorry, but you can't predict your best soldier and a world hero who has had no prior indication of craziness other than being fucking awesome to snap like that.

If Shinra hadn't sent him there, then the event would never have happened.

Seriously, you want to start getting into what ifs now? lol.

 

[Dana Scully]

And that's what I'm saying, it's too weak, too irrational for me to share his emotions or at least empathize with how he sees it. The objects of Tifa's blame all seem much more directly related to Mr. Lockhart's death than Snow does to Nora's.

Fair enough. I never had any trouble seeing why Hope was pissed, but I guess it comes down somewhat to personal opinion.

 

[ForceStealer]

Whether they're responsible isn't even the point. The point is that Tifa blames Shinra just for being associated with Sephiroth, without knowing anything else about them except that they provide her shitty little country town with power. It's an irrational jump in logic

Sephiroth is Shinra's posterboy. They pimped him out like crazy. He was THE IMAGE that SOLDIER would always be around to protect the populace. And now that symbol of Shina's might killed her father and everyone she knows. Associated him with them is kinda rational.

(And I do understand that you're not attacking Tifa, and that we have already agreed to disagree on Hope, I'm merely disputing the similarity between Tifa's and Hope's responses at this point)

 

[Max Payne]

I'm sorry, but this is a fucking stupid thing to say. In order to be responsible they would have had to have some idea this could happen, and what indicators did Sephiroth ever give that he was going to snap so suddenly and so violently?

That's retarded. He's their man, they sent him, he works for them. Therefore they're responsible. It's common sense. You are responsible for the actions of your people, and if you can't ensure that they're not going to do something stupid you shouldn't send them.

When did he ever show any signs of being insane before Nibelheim? He was good at his job, OH NO HOW TERRIBLE. Of course you're going to send an overpowered soldier to clean up monsters like dragons and god knows what else.

Don't be vapid. The man is a soldier. Any soldier can snap at any time, especially someone that's disconnected from society and has no friends. The very fact that he's solitary and cut off from everyone else IS A BAD SIGN.

MOG has already stated the kinds of folks that could have been sent in Sephiroth's place.

There are always outliers and signs that a person is going to snap. The fact that they didn't see this coming means they DIDN'T do an extensive enough psych exam.

Whether they're responsible isn't even the point. The point is that Tifa blames Shinra just for being associated with Sephiroth, without knowing anything else about them except that they provide her shitty little country town with power. It's an irrational jump in logic that just happens to be justified because Shinra is indeed evil.

What? That doesn't make any fucking sense. The fact that they're responsible IS what justifies her rage and makes it rational.

Shinra was not responsible for Sephiroth going crazy. I'm sorry, but you can't predict your best soldier and a world hero who has had no prior indication of craziness other than being fucking awesome to snap like that.

Hahahahah what the fuck. Of course they are. He's their soldier who has been through a bunch of shit and has no friends and prefers being distant from other people. THAT'S A BAD SIGN. The military predicts their men starting to crack all the time and give them leave. The best soldiers in the world are some of the ones that lose it often because of all the crap they've been through.

But in the end it doesn't matter. Their man, their responsibility. The fact that had they not sent him, it wouldn't have happened is simple proof of their direct hand in all of it.

As far as Shinra mansion goes, this is where their top scientists experimented and worked. There's no way they didn't document everything that happened and keep up with those records.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Also, even though the entirety of Cloud mopping up Shinra soldiers throughout the entire game of FFVII may fool you, the Shinra Army is at least competent enough to clear some monsters from a geographical area. It's overstaffed with a lot of incompetent morons, but when the shit gets rough there's no mistaking that a military force with guns and tanks and robots with tens/hundreds of thousands of personnel could have done what Sephiroth was sent to do.

I just want to make it clear that there wasn't anything about the mission that Sephiroth was fundamentally necessary for, and sending him anywhere near the mansion was a retarded oversight, any competent organization doesn't just flat out forget about a research installation that was the main reason they got where they were in the first place.

If anything, the Nibelhiem Mansion being literally just left there for three decades was one of the stupidest things that Shinra can ever account for. They would be actually better off burning down Nibelheim to at least cover that up (in comparison to the dumbshit reasons why the burn other towns to the ground).

 

[Max Payne]

Also, even though the entirety of Cloud mopping up Shinra soldiers throughout the entire game of FFVII may fool you, the Shinra Army is at least competent enough to clear some monsters from a geographical area. It's overstaffed with a lot of incompetent morons, but when the shit gets rough there's no mistaking that a military force with guns and tanks and robots with tens/hundreds of thousands of personnel could have done what Sephiroth was sent to do.

I just want to make it clear that there wasn't anything about the mission that Sephiroth was fundamentally necessary for, and sending him anywhere near the mansion was a retarded oversight, any competent organization doesn't just flat out forget[/U ]about a research installation that was the main reason they got where they were in the first place.

If anything, the Nibelhiem Mansion being literally just left there for three decades was one of the stupidest things that Shinra can ever account for. They would be actually better off burning down Nibelheim to at least cover that up (in comparison to the dumbshit reasons why the burn other towns to the ground._

Indeed. There is just no way they didn't know what was there.

 

[Ⓐaron]

Just chiming in to say that in the real world, governments, militaries and corporations are definitely held accountable for the actions of their employees. Shinra kind of qualifies as all three due to the nature of FFVII's world, although their excess of power means they're not legally accountable to anyone, but that's exactly what makes them so sinister. There's no one holding their feet to the fire, which means that they go amok with power and commit all sorts of horrible abuses. Like... sending Sephiroth to Nibelheim. It's a terrible decision and they completely fucked up for it, and Tifa is absolutely right to blame them for their terrible judgement in making it.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

If anything, the Nibelhiem Mansion being literally just left there for three decades was one of the stupidest things that Shinra can ever account for. They would be actually better off burning down Nibelheim to at least cover that up (in comparison to the dumbshit reasons why the burn other towns to the ground).

Except that the Mansion doesn't even burn down. Or at least, the foundations don't. But yeah, that's very sloppy on their part.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

He's their soldier who has been through a bunch of shit and has no friends and prefers being distant from other people. THAT'S A BAD SIGN.

Also, yeah, this is a bad sign. There's literally no organization ever where members are chummier with each other than the military. Given the fact that people in the military have the amount of comraderie/brotherhood/friendship that they have with each other (and do EVERYTHING together), someone as powerful and as popular as Sephiroth who's so damn lonely is a BAD BAD TERRIBLE SIGN.

There's a reason why Angeal (probably the most mentally put together member of SOLDIER ever) was written with as the 'go to guy' where the other SOLDIERS talked to and looked up to for moral support.

The military dudes that are at the bar swiggin beer, mackin' to girls, and cursing and yelling about how great they are aren't the ones to worry about (if anything, that sort of thing is the best and healthiest way, believe it or not, to handle and shake off the stress of what people in the military do, even in noncombat roles), its the dude in the corner staring at the table brooding is the one that uh, needs special attention from his higher ups.

 

[Max Payne]

Also, yeah, this is a bad sign. There's literally no organization ever where members are chummier with each other than the military. Given the fact that people in the military have the amount of comraderie/brotherhood/friendship that they have with each other (and do EVERYTHING together), someone as powerful and as popular as Sephiroth who's so damn lonely is a BAD BAD TERRIBLE SIGN.

There's a reason why Angeal (probably the most mentally put together member of SOLDIER ever) was written with as the 'go to guy' where the other SOLDIERS talked to and looked up to for moral support.

The military dudes that are at the bar swiggin beer, mackin' to girls, and cursing and yelling about how great they are aren't the ones to worry about (if anything, that sort of thing is the best and healthiest way, believe it or not, to handle and shake off the stress of what people in the military do, even in noncombat roles), its the dude in the corner staring at the table brooding is the one that uh, needs special attention from his higher ups.

Exactly. There's a reason some people call it a brotherhood. If someone closes up inside themselves, especially someone that has seen that much action in that environment, it's a red flag.

I mean seriously, you don't think, "HEY THAT GUY GONNA GO NUTS" but it's a good sign something ain't right and you should look into doing something about it.

 

[Ⓐaron]

I just want to add, since I had completely forgotten the chronology of events, just how thoroughly Shinra fucked up by sending Sephiroth to the location of the Nibelheim mansion. The fact that they stored records of all the fucked up shit they did, and then sent the central subject of all those records to where he just had to walk a few hundred metres to learn about everything they did to him, is either incompetence or arrogance of the highest order. Any organisation that did that in real life would be completely ruined if the general public were to find out about it. Like, utterly dismantled. Unless it was some dictatorship where no one else had any power I guess.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Again. Tifa had no idea Shinra was killing the planet at the time she first went all revenge happy.

Well, she only went revenge happy on Sephiroth at first, and he was directly responsible.

Again. Snow was the reason Nora was fighting near the explosion in the first place. Wrong to blame him, absolutely. But it was also wrong to blame Shinra for Sephiroth.

Well, no, since they made him. But I get what you're saying, though I disagree.

Actually the amount of similarities between the two situations is surprising.

Age and parent killed are the two similarities, really.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

I think there was a purposeful breakdown in communications between Shin-Ra and Hojo. There's a good chance Hojo never told Shin-Ra exactly what was in the Shin-Ra Mansion. For all they knew, everything in the basement had been destroyed. There is also the pov that the Nebilheim mission was a set up by Hojo.

Also, Shin-Ra does not have a good track record with watching out for it's people's mental states. If they did, Hojo wouldn't have even got employed. For all his faults, Lazard seems to have cared, but he left. Heidegger has been repeatedly shown to be incompetent and he was the one who took over SOLDIER. In fact, the only department heads that do care would be Tseng and Reeve. I get the feeling from Shin-Ra that even if they did think Sephiroth was in bad mental shape, they would have made him go anyway so that they wouldn't loose face.