Hian and Lulcieldid, you are now both arguing about the semantics of arguing, when people want Genesis in FF7R. There are bigger Bottomswells to Bolt2.
It's more of a conversation I guess. It's just that Lulcieldid is a person who, since we first started to have exchanges, has a very particular way of responding to me that I find annoying.
In terms of the argument we don't actually appear to disagree so much as we simply have different values.
The argument is still relevant to the remake though, as we were discussing the style of the game.
The only thing I would add is that we've been clamouring for a remake since the PS2 debuted, FIFTEEN YEARS AGO. Seriously, when people saw Sephiroth in Kingdom Hearts, they took it as proof that FFVII was getting a remake. This shit has been going on since BEFORE MANY FFVII FANS WERE BORN.
Yeah, and I'll add to this, I started wanting a remake for FFVII with the announcement for FFVIII.
I saw a low-poly screen-shot of Squall and Seifer in Dollet before anything was known about the story of the game, and immediately I was like "that (Seifer) really looks like a higher res version of Cloud. Maybe this is like a sequel?"
Of course it wasn't, but ever since then, I started thinking about what the game would look like in better graphics.
When KH came out, I was really wanting a PS2 version of the game, and when the first low-res screen-caps of AC was leaked without any info on what it was, I was convinced we were finally getting it.
That's how long me, and pretty much everyone I know irl who're fans of FFVII have waited for a remake.
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Yeah well, that was back then. This is NOW we're talking about. They planned the Compilation in the later years, since they planned it after seven years, so they made Before Crisis and Advent Children. When they looked up on which Final Fantasy title to create a compilation, they chose the original game since the game's ending left them with ideas to fill up on they would've liked to see.
Again - that is irrelevant.
Those ideas did not exist when they first wrote Reno, so there is no wonder that there are inconsistencies between the two characterizations.
I was simply pointing out that - you cannot square those two characterizations except in head-canon, and as such, it's a pointless exercise to engage in.
And yet they are still using contents from the Compilation for other things, like Cloud's AC clothes in Super Smash Bros last year, or Shelke making an appearence in World of Final Fantasy that's coming out in October this year, which means that there are people who loved the Compilation if you look hard enough.
Yes, but they are still a minority within the larger group of people who played the original, and so if you're going to be catering to anyone at the expense of someone else - they are not the group it makes sense to cater to.
So you're suggesting that the Compilation was never canon to begin with or that they're eventually announce that it's no longer canon? Is that what you rather want and not listen to other people liking the Compilation?
No, I'm suggesting that, and I have no idea how you get to that from what you just quoted.
I was simply saying that even from a sales perspective, trying to have the remake make sense with the compilation is a fruitless endeavor.
That being said - it is not meaningful to speak of FFVII canon for the most part, because the established canon is a complete mess, and secondly because SE doesn't give a rats ass about the canon when they expand on FFVII.
They didn't care about the canon of the original when they started to make the compilation, and as I've already said to you several times, just based on the trailers, they're already making changes to canon from the compilation as well (such as Cloud wielding the original buster sword).
You're just going to have to get used to this -
This remake isn't just going to change things from the OG, it's going to change things as it sees fit regardless of whether those changes impact the OG or the compilation.
I thought they didn't want to cut out any of the storyline's content. When was this interviewed? Because I certainly remember reading that they didn't want to cut out the story, which is why they're placing the remake in episode-like parts.
Here are some choice quotes :
Kitase :
I, along with Nomura-san and [Kazushige] Nojima-san – who are involved with the remake – were involved with the original Final Fantasy VII. We were the people who created it, so in that sense, we don’t think anything is untouchable. That isn’t to say we’re changing everything!
Of course, within Square Enix and across the globe, there are people who think it’s on this holy scale. That there isn’t anything we can touch or play around with. But we believe we know the balance between what can be changed versus what needs to be protected.
Nomura :
Apart from delving even deeper into the episodes [of the game], we’re preparing tricks/devices/gimmicks (Author’s note : there was no single word to properly capture the essence of this word) among other things. After all, isn’t it the case that the people who played the original game, the important parts included, knows the story from beginning to end? We’re thinking we want those people as well to be able to get (literally “taste”
surprised [by the story] once again.
Yoshinori Kitase :
We don’t want to do a remake that ends with [just] tracing [people’s] nostalgia. We want to make fans of the original excited (literally : “dokidoki”, the sound of a racing heart in Japanese) again. We’re re-adjusting the story putting those [kind of] feelings into it.
Nomura :
Of course, there will be parts of the original that will get cut for various reasons, but even with that done, if in this version we’re going ahead with additional scenes, and with the level of detail of this product, we expect that the overall size/volume of the game will increase [compared to the original].
But people still loved the movie and the other games, at least some of them. Are you suggesting that only like 10 people liked AC and CC while everyone else in the entire planet hated them and would rather just destrory them? Then what's the point of Square still using some of the contents from the other titles in the first place if millions of people hated them?
No, that is not what I am suggesting.
What I am suggesting however, is that there are far more people who played the original, but only got exposed to a fraction of the compilation, or not at all, and didn't like it when they did, compared to people who loved it.
That does not change the fact that AC and CC both sold several million copies, and so adding an advent children costume her, or a Zack plush-toy there is still economically viable when you consider that such things don't cost much to do, but can still tap into those fan-bases.
However, this wasn't what we were talking about.
You made the claim that not including anything compilation related would be bad because it would alienate fans of the compilation.
I'm simply pointing out that if it's a choice between alienating fans of the OG as it is, and fans of the compilation, the former is far worse than the latter based on sales numbers..
*Ugh* Why do I even borther trying to argue here if you so obviously wish terribly that the Compilation never existed and that we would've had to wait for 20 years just to see FFVII again after 20 years of nothing?
Except that I never said I wished this, nor have I ever made an argument remotely even saying that.
Take a step back, and try wrapping your mind around the distinction between saying :
A.) The compilation is horrible in all conceivable ways and shouldn't exist, and
B.) the compilation does not work well with the original, and is less popular by far than the original, and therefore it is not productive to work hard trying to make the remake work with what's already there comparatively to just starting from scratch and using what you think works and change it based on what is convenient for story-telling purposes.
However, you're not far off in your assessment of how I feel about the compilation - I'd rather have a long time with nothing and the then a solid remake that stays close to the source material, than a bunch of sub-par spin-off titles that nobody really asked for stealing resources and time that could have been spent on simply giving us a remake earlier on in time.
The problem though is that this assessment is not relevant to what I've been saying in this exchange, since my feelings about the compilation is not what I've been arguing.
What I've been arguing is your confused idea about the extent of the compilations popularity, and the idea that the remake will somehow safely tie in with the compilation without ret-cons or changes.
Both of those positions are wrong, regardless of whether or not I think the compilation has been largely detrimental to FFVII's universe.
