If Cloud was black..

Munatik

Beacause I am a puppet
I already had a lot of respect for the intelligence and maturity of this community, but I'm amazed a topic like this hasn't descended into a huge shitfest and/or was locked after the 3rd page. Pretty awesome, imo. :monster:

I'm going to echo a lot of what's already been said, but I do want to put in my $.02 on the issue.

I'll start off by sounding a little stupid and/or naive: I didn't really "notice" Barret was black on my first playthrough. Now I'm not blind and I could see the darker skin tone Square gave him, but it never crossed my mind to think about it as a racial thing (ditto General Leo). I didn't think stuff like "Oh, Barret is swearing because he's black," I thought "Oh, Barret is swearing because he's Barret." I didn't grow up in ignorance believing that skin pigment somehow magically affects the way people think and behave, fictional or not. And in a way, it seems kind of absurd to think of Barret as a stereotype given he is based in a fictional world and therefore unaffected by the real world's history and cultures. From a story-telling perspective, a race-specific background would also make zero sense to include unless it were somehow relevant to FFVII's plot. Try FFIX if you want a look at characters who have to deal with being members of specific and culturally distinct groups of people.

Also consider Dyne, who was brought out as a parallel to Barret (I do love them parallels). Subtracting the every other detail about his character, Dyne was an angry white guy with a gun on his arm. The outrage may now commence. Wait, what?

That all said, I probably would have thought a black Cloud was fine. I still do. He could have been blue as a Smurf and I still would have played and enjoyed FFVII. And you know what? I agree with Dacon. I think he still would have been insanely popular.

But then, I realize that not everyone shares the same kind of thinking. I also realize that I was probably 12 or 13-years-old at the time of my first playthrough (and even younger when I played FFVI), and I've certainly become much more aware of the sensitivity surrounding protrayals of minorities in the media since then. However, I have also learned that the one thing a character protrayal is able to speak to above all else is the creativity and experience of their writer(s). The only people who are affected by real world history and cultures are the ones who created him, and I like to think the talented people at Square have the creativity to resist those influences. And like Mako pointed out, they have done so with a fair amount of examples and, while not overwhelming, is probably more than we could expect.

As a side note, the only person's appearance I found to be somewhat troubling right off the bat was Tifa's, and for two rather obvious and well-rounded reasons. But again I never thought they affected her personality, and I took to her character very well regardless.

P.S. FWIW I don't think Barret looks like Mr. T either, but if Barret came out with his own brand of cereal too I would sooooo try some. :monster:
 

Ravynne Nevyrmore

that one Lucrecia fangirl
AKA
Ravynne
I don't dislike Barret. I do like him. But you can't deny that they made him very stereotypical. How is it that the only character to say things like, "Shit! You bustin' up my rhythm!" is the only big black dude?
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
....Only black people say that?

Again, you're attributing the fact that he's urban, as if it's some racial insult. No, it really isn't. There are black people who say that, and unless you think an urban person is somehow inferior, then there isn't a problem. Barret is an urban black father, fighting the corporation Shinra. He's hard. He's coarse. He's not meant to be nice. But that doesn't diminish his character.

It ain't a stereotype. It's his character. If automatically making a black, urbanized character made you racist or insensitive, then you essentially cut off that facet of reality ever being presented in media.

FFVII had white biker punks and street hoodlums too. Only until the actual behavior is the sum total of his character and interaction with everyone is it a stereotype. And it's not. Barret has many insightful, emotional, and important scenes that highlight his love for his daughter, his comradry with his friends, and him growing as a character who learns revenge isn't everything.
 

Alex

alex is dead
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Alex, Ashes, Pennywise, Bill Weasley, Jack's Smirking Revenge, Sterling Archer
It ain't a stereotype. It's his character. If automatically making a black, urbanized character made you racist or insensitive, then you essentially cut off that facet of reality ever being presented in media.
Actually it was Mr. T's character. Really.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
No..not really. Unless you have no understanding at all of Barret's character in FFVII. Do we have to go down the road of how comparing him to Mr. T makes absolutely no sense again?
 

Alex

alex is dead
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Alex, Ashes, Pennywise, Bill Weasley, Jack's Smirking Revenge, Sterling Archer
He's such a stereotype though man.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
No...he really isn't. Or do I have to repeat my points that I posted right above yours and 2 pages ago?

Just because Barret is urban, kicks ass and is aggressive, doesn't mean he's a stereotype. There ARE urban black people, and that doesn't make them any less intelligent or real. Just because a black character is aggressive and urban doesn't automatically make him a stereotype. There's more to it than that. It has to be the sum total of his character. Making an asian character intelligent, or a Jewish person rich in a work of media isn't an automatic racial no-no. Likewise making an urban black character isn't one either.

Again, you're attributing the fact that he's urban, as if it's some racial insult. No, it really isn't. There are black people who say that, and unless you think an urban person is somehow inferior, then there isn't a problem. Barret is an urban black father, fighting the corporation Shinra. He's hard. He's coarse. He's not meant to be nice. But that doesn't diminish his character...If automatically making a black, urbanized character made you racist or insensitive, then you essentially cut off that facet of reality ever being presented in media.

FFVII had white biker punks and street hoodlums too. Only until the actual behavior is the sum total of his character and interaction with everyone is it a stereotype. And it's not. Barret has many insightful, emotional, and important scenes that highlight his love for his daughter, his comradry with his friends, and him growing as a character who learns revenge isn't everything.

Seriously. It isn't a stereotype unless you missed the 2 discs work of character development, growth, and interaction Barret had that highlighted his positive qualities and changes into a better man.
 

Alex

alex is dead
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Alex, Ashes, Pennywise, Bill Weasley, Jack's Smirking Revenge, Sterling Archer
He's a stereotype in Advent Children.

'WE STRUCK OIL FOO'
 

Munatik

Beacause I am a puppet
Cid's got the foulest mouth in the game, imo. Much different from the way any other character speaks. That's Cid being Cid, not Cid being white or some other bullshit.

So why, all of a sudden, can't Barret just be Barret because of the way he speaks? Why does it have to be Barret being a stereotype?
 

Alex

alex is dead
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Alex, Ashes, Pennywise, Bill Weasley, Jack's Smirking Revenge, Sterling Archer
Because he's black and therefore novelty to Japanese people.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
....UH OH! A BLACK PERSON USED URBAN SLANG!

That's ridiculous. Again...unless it's the sum total of his character, then no, it's not a stereotype. And its the same Barret from FFVII. That doesn't invalidate who he was before or what is shown now. That makes no sense. Him being excited at finding an oil field to help move the world to a source of energy that isn't the blood of the planet, is not stereotypical or stupid.

You're essentially projecting a classist/racist attitude that because he's urban that automatically makes him inferior. That's ridiculous. There are a lot of urban black men who are intelligent and non-stereotypical despite growing up in the inner city and using its vernacular. There's more to being a stereotype than speaking urban slang.

It's ridiculous. By that logic, Asians can't be smart, you can't show a Mexican sleeping in a work of media, and if a Jewish person is professional and wealthy, then it's wrong. Bullocks like that is hypersensitive crap with no context.

Just because it's Japanese doesn't change anything. Again, SE has been making positive portrayals of black characters before him, so that holds no weight as an argument either. And they continued to do so FFVIII through FFXII. Highly doubtful its just...novelty.
 

Alex

alex is dead
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Alex, Ashes, Pennywise, Bill Weasley, Jack's Smirking Revenge, Sterling Archer
I'm not sure where I implied that he was inferior or stupid. Unless your stereotype is much more derogatory than mine is.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
By the very nature of a stereotype, it portrays the ethnicity in a negative light. You're attributing the fact that he's urban to be a negative trait. It doesn't take someone with an education beyond high school to know the implications of what that negative connotation is. It's pretty common knowledge that people attribute urban slang and people who use it as less intelligent and educated compared to those who speak proper, and grammatically correct english. It's a classist and prejudiced attribution. The fact Barret uses urban slang isn't a negative automatically nor does it mean he's stupid. It's not the sum total of his character nor is he portrayed negatively.
 

Alessa Gillespie

a letter to my future self
AKA
Sansa Stark, Sweet Bro, Feferi, tentacleTherapist, Nin, Aki, Catwoman, Shinjiro Aragaki, Terezi, Princess Bubblegum
Side note: I have no idea if Xehanort is actually a black guy, since he looks more ganguro than anything. Just saying.
 

Alex

alex is dead
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Alex, Ashes, Pennywise, Bill Weasley, Jack's Smirking Revenge, Sterling Archer
It's pretty common knowledge that people attribute urban slang and people who use it as less intelligent and educated compared to those who speak proper, and grammatically correct english
I actually lolled here. Maybe you're just used to a more sheltered, prejudiced atmosphere but I don't know anybody who thinks like that at all. Don't try and pass your own opinion off as 'common knowledge'
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
His skin is chocolate, ffs. He's not ganguro. Give me a break. That's not a tan. That's black skin. Or are you talking about Xehanort when he was a normal human? Because I'm speaking of his incarnation in KH1.

But that doesn't nullify the fact that Xemnas is definitely chocolate skinned and black people do come in lighter shades of brown, fyi. :monster:

Ashes said:
I actually lolled here. Maybe you're just used to a more sheltered, prejudiced atmosphere but I don't know anybody who thinks like that at all. Don't try and pass your own opinion off as 'common knowledge'

No dude, it's *very* common knowledge here in the states. Don't give me that bull. There are numerous academic studies and papers written on the subject of how urban slang is used to imply inadequacy in the practitioner. Good for you to not know anyone like that, but they exist and in good numbers.
 
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Alessa Gillespie

a letter to my future self
AKA
Sansa Stark, Sweet Bro, Feferi, tentacleTherapist, Nin, Aki, Catwoman, Shinjiro Aragaki, Terezi, Princess Bubblegum
110px-Xehanort-AnsemDesciple_CG.jpg
394363792_4b74317a41.jpg

They look sort of similar. Besides the fact that girl is seriously going to give me nightmares. But I don't think he's black because it'd be a rather Unfortunate Implication if the only black guy was also the main bad guy.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
....Black people do bad things. What the hell is the unfortunate implication? Again, that's silly.

And no. Again, look at Xehanort's heartless, and Xemnas. I'm very dubious that, that's a tan. That reasoning is ridiculous because there ARE light brown black people. Have you not seen Beyonce Knolls? Or Charles Drew? Or the thousands of light skinned black people out there? That's ridiculous. Furthermore, Master Xehanort is shown with a darker complexion too. VERY unlikely that's just an artificial tan.
 

Alex

alex is dead
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Alex, Ashes, Pennywise, Bill Weasley, Jack's Smirking Revenge, Sterling Archer
No dude, it's *very* common knowledge here in the states. Don't give me that bull. There are numerous academic studies and papers written on the subject of how urban slang is used to imply inadequacy in the practitioner. Good for you to not know anyone like that, but they exist and in good numbers.
Good for them, but in the future remember that your own opinion of what is 'common knowledge' might be restricted just to where you live/the states/whatever and won't apply to everyone.
 

Alessa Gillespie

a letter to my future self
AKA
Sansa Stark, Sweet Bro, Feferi, tentacleTherapist, Nin, Aki, Catwoman, Shinjiro Aragaki, Terezi, Princess Bubblegum
....Black people do bad things. What the hell is the unfortunate implication? Again, that's silly.
The unfortunate implication is that in the Kingdom Hearts universe, all black people are bad guys who will steal the bodies of little white-looking boys. Yes, black people CAN do bad things. But when there's supposedly only one black person and they are repeatedly the bad guy of the series, you can't tell me there's no racist undertones there.

And no. Again, look at Xehanort's heartless, and Xemnas. I'm very dubious that, that's a tan. That reasoning is ridiculous because there ARE light brown black people. Have you not seen Beyonce Knolls? Or Charles Drew? Or the thousands of light skinned black people out there? That's ridiculous. Furthermore, Master Xehanort is shown with a darker complexion too. VERY unlikely that's just an artificial tan.
I know there are lighter skinned black people. I've seen Obama, Beyonce, and Rhianna a number of times. But if he WERE meant to be black, that leaves some troubling implications, because he's the main bad guy in KH and he hasn't shown any signs of ever not being evil.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Or he could be black as shown in his appearance as a heartless in KH1 and his true form in Birth By Sleep. But let's just say he's everything else BUT black. That works :monster:

And again, it's not just restricted to where I live. If you've never been around it or seen it, good for you. But that doesn't mean it exists or isn't real. At all.

@Ninra

I understand what you're saying but I doubt that's the implication at all. Given the fact that SE has shown black characters positively in several other games. The major antagonist of the series being black doesn't strike a negative chord with me. I don't think there's some negative message of "blacks are evil" and stuff with that.

I'd see those undertones if the game company and designer did that in other games or hadn't shown black characters in prominent, positive roles before.
 
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Max Payne

Banned
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Leon S. Kennedy,Terry Bogard, The Dark Knight, Dacon, John Marston, Teal'c
The unfortunate implication is that in the Kingdom Hearts universe, all black people are bad guys who will steal the bodies of little white-looking boys. Yes, black people CAN do bad things. But when there's supposedly only one black person and they are repeatedly the bad guy of the series, you can't tell me there's no racist undertones there.


I know there are lighter skinned black people. I've seen Obama, Beyonce, and Rhianna a number of times. But if he WERE meant to be black, that leaves some troubling implications, because he's the main bad guy in KH and he hasn't shown any signs of ever not being evil.

Sounds more like you're perceiving things as such as opposed to that actually being the case. The ratio of Caucasian/asian looking villains as opposed to African American in SE games is striking.

I think his skin color is meant to represent his dark soul, not to paint any specific race as evil.
 
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