Innocent Sin v2.0 - Vincent x Lucrecia

[Mantichorus]

Next, they plan to release a cover of the They Might Be Giants song, Why Does the Sun Shine? (The Sun is a mass of incandescent gas). And, well, Hojo's just glad Vincent likes his scarf. That he received as a secret Santa present.

[quote author=Ravynne link=topic=217.msg19327#msg19327 date=1234930110]
You, sir, win for forcing the infinitely more correct pronounciation of Lucrecia's name. I've begun forcing myself into Loo-cret-see-ah only because that's how everyone else in the world now says it, but my brain and tongue have struck a compromise and usually come to an agreement somewhere on Loo-cree-shee-ah.[/quote]That was always how I pronounced it before DC came out. Plus, I wasn't sure how to phonetically write the DC pronunciation. :-\ I think "Loo-crease-shuh" and say "Loo-cret-shuh", while thinking in Steve Blum's Vincent.

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

loo-cret-see-ah is how they say it, which is the Spanish pronounciation. But Lucrecia/Lucretia is already an old fashioned name in English (derived from Latin, not Spanish) that is pronounced loo-cree-shah (or loo-crease-shuh if you prefer to write it out that way, same thing really), which is why I consider that to be the "correct" English pronounciation of the name. Furthermore, she was named after a woman in Roman lore, and although the Roman name Lucretia would properly be pronounced loo-cray-tee-ah in Latin, most English words that are derived from Latin and contain that "tia" have softened/melded it into a "sha." (eg., operation, equation, minutia, secretion— the last is particularly appropriate because the "creti" is from the same Latin word that means "to bring"; Lucretia means "bringer of light&quot

However, of course, the Japanese write their names phonetically and it's definitely pronounced ru-ku-re-tsi-a in Japanese. Still, I don't think it's absurd for an English-speaking person to pronounce it the English way and still be considered "correct." I think they should have gone with the English pronounciation when translating the game to English, but that's just me. (It's not like they stuck with Vincento or Sephiros, or even Zax.)


But on another subject, here's something interesting— check out Lucrecia's profile on http://finalfantasy.wikia.com:

Lucrecia Crescent

Wikis are, of course, written by fans and ideally put through a grinder of being subject to the corrections of other fans until it actually is correct (which doesn't always happen), but take note of the last paragraph:

[That Lucrecia had feelings for Vincent] is made abundantly clear throughout the game, but even more so during the seemingly random words flashing across the screen. Assembling them into sentences will reveal, "I loved Vincent with all my heart" and "Please don't die on me, I love you!"

I don't think it's true, however. She does say "Vincent" and "I loved," which I've noticed before (and screencapped, lulz) but I don't recall her saying "with all my heart" unless they're paraphrasing something else. That one could be true, if a stretch. I dunno.

She most definitely does not say "Please don't die on me, I love you" by any stretch of the imagination, unless these words are really quiet/distorted and not displayed in text. Lucrecia makes one reference of love ever and it's that first one.

Have any of you heard this idea before?

 

[Mantichorus]

Most iiiinteresting. Lucrecia means "light bringer"? Then, Lucrecia has to be the feminine counterpoint to Lucifer (also, "light bringer" or "to bring light&quot. Maybe this is to underscore the folly in considering Sephiroth a messiah (both in the ShinRa and in fangirls).

Cue the image that's been in my mind for a while: Lucrecia pulling Sephiroth away from a hoard of fangirls, saying "He's not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy!"

Hmm, well, as with all wikia articles, I'd take it with a pinch of salt (and yes, we have time for salt). Still, it does make it clear as to its source: quite often in DC, I found there were times when the screen streamed words at a speed too quick to read - presumably, this was to simulate Lucrecia's mental state degrading. Unless we were to find a way to play those scenes out in slo-mo, I don't think we can either agree or dismiss with it.

Heh, really...it's just like ANY hypothesis. We need to test it. Who has the equipment, though? Really, we need to more than do screencaps - we need to go through frame by frame. :-\ And yes, I know how tedious that can be - you're talking to a guy who does just that to make avatars he never uses.

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

We have the technology. (We have the power, lulz.) It's called YouTube and Blue Laguna, where you can watch/download (respectively) the scenes and play them back to your heart's content, pausing however often you'd like. There are also game scripts that don't include this line.

I'd like to see a specific scene cited from whoever made this claim. If necessary I will play back every movie in which Lucrecia's thoughts fly across the screen like that and look for it, but I have already watched those movies many times in order to catch everything she said, and while I do not recall every word off the top of my head, I certainly would have remembered (and fangirled over) "Please don't die on me, I love you."

So I posit that it is false, and may even be bothered to register and change the wiki article myself at some point.


Does Lucifer also mean "bringer of light"? I didn't know that. I get the luci part (lux, lucis - light) but what word is the fer from?

Also, does it count? Wouldn't Lucifer be a Hebrew name or somesuch? Not many similarities between Latin and Hebrew, so it might just be a coincidence that the beginning of his name means "light" in Latin. The beginning of my name is a small feline in English, but I'm pretty damn sure that has nothing to do with its etymology.


Edit: Nevermind, I looked it up. (Oooo, novelty.) I may be slightly wrong. ferre is the Latin word to bring, and apparently the word that "secretion" gets its "creti" from is cernere, which basically means to separate. I could have sworn that the "retia" in Lucretia came from some other word that means to bring, but I can't for the life of me remember or find it.

Here's something interesting, too, for two reasons:

http://www.babynamespedia.com/meaning/Lucrecia

#1 - The pronounciation listed is our preferred version, mwahaha.

#2 - check out the "related name" map at the bottom. Some of those are clearly on crack (Dorothy??) but there's apparently a German name "Crescentia" that's in there. ("Crescentia" also doesn't look very German to me.)


Edit #2: This website verifies that Lucrecia means "brings light" but also does not state exactly what Latin word deems that so. So I am not crazy. ;

http://www.meaning-of-names.com/spanish-names/lucrecia.asp

Also, other websites seem to believe that the original Lucretius that Lucretia is derived from was related to financial gain (lucrum) rather than light.

This website also lists "bringer of light" and "full of light" as the meanings of Lucrece and Lucretia:

http://www.name-meanings.com/name-meanings/l.php?choice=meaning&gender=&s=320

also lists "brings light," but might be user submitted:

http://www.babycenter.com/baby-names-lucretia-2914.htm

 

[Mantichorus]

[quote author=Ravynne link=topic=217.msg21319#msg21319 date=1235271220]We have the technology. (We have the power, lulz.) It's called YouTube and Blue Laguna, where you can watch/download (respectively) the scenes and play them back to your heart's content, pausing however often you'd like. There are also game scripts that don't include this line.

I'd like to see a specific scene cited from whoever made this claim. If necessary I will play back every movie in which Lucrecia's thoughts fly across the screen like that and look for it, but I have already watched those movies many times in order to catch everything she said, and while I do not recall every word off the top of my head, I certainly would have remembered (and fangirled over) "Please don't die on me, I love you."

So I posit that it is false, and may even be bothered to register and change the wiki article myself at some point.[/quote]We can rebuild him! We have the technology, what we don't have is the exchange rate! Vincent Valentine is, "The Six Million Gil Man"! (OK, if no-one else here has seen the comedy series "Goodness Gracious Me", it won't be as funny... but it had to be done.)

Well, I'll take your word for it. Personally, I'd want to advance it frame by frame, but I don't know of any program that could do that...well, I *do*, but I'd have to tape it on VHS, then have it burnt to DVD...

But you're right. Whoever included it really should have referenced the original scene they found that phrase on.

[quote author=Ravynne link=topic=217.msg21319#msg21319 date=1235271220]Does Lucifer also mean "bringer of light"? I didn't know that. I get the luci part (lux, lucis - light) but what word is the fer from?

Also, does it count? Wouldn't Lucifer be a Hebrew name or somesuch? Not many similarities between Latin and Hebrew, so it might just be a coincidence that the beginning of his name means "light" in Latin. The beginning of my name is a small feline in English, but I'm pretty damn sure that has nothing to do with its etymology.


Edit: Nevermind, I looked it up. (Oooo, novelty.) I may be slightly wrong. ferre is the Latin word to bring, and apparently the word that "secretion" gets its "creti" from is cernere, which basically means to separate. I could have sworn that the "retia" in Lucretia came from some other word that means to bring, but I can't for the life of me remember or find it.

...[/quote]Lucifer's Hebrew name is alternatively "Satan" - meaning, "adversary", "tester" - or Helel, which I don't know the meaning of. However, the "el" part at the end refers to God (Michael - "who is like God"; Raphael - "God heals"; Uriel - "light/fire of God", etc). The angels are called "elohim" (sp?) - "angel" is Greek, meaning "messenger".

Lucifer is Latin, from the Christian era, around the time the Roman Empire took it as their religion. It's a translation of Isaiah referring to a proud Babylonian king as the morningstar, or "lightbringer" - to burn brightly before disappearing in the light of the Sun. However, the priests took it literally - "how art thou fallen from Heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning" - and believed it was the name of the Devil.

Thus endeth the lesson. And the moral of the lesson? Don't get me started. XD I know far too much about this stuff.

Anyway, I didn't think you were crazy. A lot of Latin words have synonyms - like English. But I think the meaning "full of light" is pretty damn awesome. If I ever father a daughter, I wanna name her Lucrecia! OK, my partner may well overrule me...

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

I'm sure you can strike a compromise on "Lucy." She doesn't have to know why. ^_~

Thank you for the lesson. I actually didn't know that and find it very interesting. I've never heard that "Helel" was his angel name. I thought Lucifer was it. But I did know about the angels' names ending in "-el," so that does make much more sense.

 

[looneymoon]

Wait, sorry for the intrusion of the topic but, are ya'll talking 'bout Lucifer, or the etymology of the name "Lucrecia/Lucretia"? Cuz I was always under the impression that Square got the name from the historic Lucretia of Ancient Rome.

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

We were talking about both, because apparently the etymology of "Lucifer" is similar to the etymology of "Lucretia."

Square did get the name from the Roman Lucretia. That is a historical connotation of the name, but not the name's etymology. "Etymology" means how a word was formed from other, older words, usually from older languages, and what is the meaning of that combination of words. (For example, we know a playground to be a park with swings and monkey bars, but maybe some other language might take the word "playground" for their own language and have it mean just an abstract situation where someone enjoys themselves, and forget that in English the words "play" and "ground" referred literally to the ground on which young children played.)

Lucrecia's name has a double meaning. The first is that it reminds us of the Roman legend of Lucretia, who was raped by the monarch of Rome. (In this case, Lucrecia Crescent was "raped" by ShinRa, who is also associated with Rome in its kanji.) The second meaning is the literal meaning of the name Lucrecia (from which Lucrecia is derived), which, from Latin, is "bringer of light" or "full of light" or something similar to that (which is what we're trying to find out). Lucretia's name meant this, too.

Lucrecia's associations with light—her last name is also a phase of the moon—refer to the contrast of Vincent's life being associated with darkness.

Vincent's name also has both an appropriate literal translation and a cultural connotation for which they chose the name. Vincent Price was a famous actor in old school horror movies, so they wanted Vincent Valentine to remind us of horror stuff.

"Vincent," in Latin, comes from the word "vincere," which means "to conquer, defeat, outlast." The name Vincent can be translated to mean "he who conquers" (similar to the name Victor, "he who is victorious&quot, although in the specific case of Vincent Valentine, "he who outlasts" is also terribly appropriate.

Vincent's last name contains only a cultural connotation to St. Valentine and is meant to link the character to love. Literally, "Valentine" would mean something along the lines of staying healthy ("vale" meaning "well" in a healthy sense).

...Well, then again, after his recovery from Rosso's attack, maybe references to health suit him, too.

 

[looneymoon]

Lucrecia's name has a double meaning. The first is that it reminds us of the Roman legend of Lucretia, who was raped by the monarch of Rome. (In this case, Lucrecia Crescent was "raped" by ShinRa, who is also associated with Rome in its kanji.)

This point always made it seem to me that Lecrecia may have been forced into the Jenova project against her will

and if it helps, from what I remember of random Latin 100 - I believe Lu/Luc/Lux is often found associated with words like light (as noted here), but also with grief/mourning (which can apply to the character) and with winning/gaining something (something that doesn't quite apply... at least I can't think of anything)

Also, the "rece" in Lucrece (/Lucretia) can mean something like fading away, or disappearing. (Think receding hairline )

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

This point always made it seem to me that Lecrecia may have been forced into the Jenova project against her will

Forced? No. It's pretty clear that she made the decision herself. Whether or not she was manipulated into making that decision we don't know, and is something I suspect may have happened (as what the tale of Lucretia hints at). I somewhat illustrated this in the short fanfic snippet thing I shared in Writing & Art a while ago— Hojo

But since it's been pointed out to me that the experiments on Nero were not conducted by Grimoire as the DoC Online Mode sort of hinted at, but rather were only inspired by Grimoire's much earlier research, I'll have to change the exact circumstances for Redemption. But I do think she was manipulated (either by Hojo or, indirectly, by the President himself) into making the decision to take part in the Jenova Project of her own free will.

and if it helps, from what I remember of random Latin 100 - I believe Lu/Luc/Lux is often found associated with words like light (as noted here), but also with grief/mourning (which can apply to the character) and with winning/gaining something (something that doesn't quite apply... at least I can't think of anything)

Also, the "rece" in Lucrece (/Lucretia) can mean something like fading away, or disappearing.

I don't remember ever hearing that lux was associated with grief. It could be associated with hope in the same way that we also associate light with hope.

As far as winning/gaining, you may be thinking of lucrum, which I guess gave us the word lucrative.

"rece" being associated with "recede" is possible, but the C would also have to be interchangeable with a T in whatever Latin word spawned it, since it was Lucretia in Latin and only Lucrecia when it was adopted by Spanish.

 

[looneymoon]

Forced? No. It's pretty clear that she made the decision herself. Whether or not she was manipulated into making that decision we don't know, and is something I suspect may have happened (as what the tale of Lucretia hints at). I somewhat illustrated this in the short fanfic snippet thing I shared in Writing & Art a while ago— Hojo

Oh sorry, I know, this is always what I assumed before DoC comented otherwise. I tend to be a little lazy with my posts so... yeah.

I don't remember ever hearing that lux was associated with grief. It could be associated with hope in the same way that we also associate light with hope.

Lux isn't from what I know (lux is mostly associated with light, as is lum), but the word "luctus" is one that means sorrow. It's not quite as common as the usual associations with sadness/grief, but I thought I'd throw it out there.

"rece" being associated with "recede" is possible, but the C would also have to be interchangeable with a T in whatever Latin word spawned it, since it was Lucretia in Latin and only Lucrecia when it was adopted by Spanish.

I'm not sure about about the c/t interchangeability, but the word recedo (recede) can also mean retire so... possibly? Once again, just throwing some ideas out there.

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

If recede and retire came fromt he same word then yeah, looks like the C and T are interchangeable in that case. So it's possible that recedo is our word here, which would make Lucrecia's name actually mean "fading light." But I haven't seen any other references to that definition, so I'm inclined to believe there may still be a word out there that people have gotten "bring" from.

Not familiar with luctus, but I'm fairly certain that lux, lucis is the one that lended itself to Lucretia.

But, uh, as fascinating as this is, let's not forget about Vincent, too.

 

[Mantichorus]

[quote author=Ravynne link=topic=217.msg22853#msg22853 date=1235540194]I'm sure you can strike a compromise on "Lucy." She doesn't have to know why. ^_~[/quote]Oh please, you know me. She'd either be a FFVII fan when we first met, or she'd quickly pick it up. "You want to call her...Lucy?" "Yes..." "...Anything to do with Lucrecia?" "...Maybe..."

Hmm, maybe it's the romantic in me, but I think that "Lucrecia" meaning "receeding/retiring light" is beautiful. But yeah, we're totally reading too much into this. SE were just making a half-assed reference to Roman history.

What I always find amusing about Vincent's etymology on some fan sites, they make a full list of what Vincent can mean, and then start telling you he's conquered something (the most hilarious was one site, I forget where it is on the net, saying he conquered DEATH. Umm, no, not really...). It was always seemed most likely to me to mean "outlast", if SE were paying any attention to etymology (I think they weren't).

Still, that fic fragment was pretty cool, Ravy. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

What I always find amusing about Vincent's etymology on some fan sites, they make a full list of what Vincent can mean, and then start telling you he's conquered something (the most hilarious was one site, I forget where it is on the net, saying he conquered DEATH. Umm, no, not really...).

...I think that might have been mine, lol. It's not there now but it sounds like something I might have written at some point. You could...lossely and metaphorically take it to mean that, anyhow.

I know they chose the names Vincent and Lucrecia for their cultural connotations but I don't think they were ignorant to their Latin meanings given how nicely they suit the characters. Especially in Lucrecia's case, where both her first and last names make references to light.

Still, that fic fragment was pretty cool, Ravy. Thanks for sharing.

Thanks for reading. =P

 

[Mantichorus]

[quote author=Ravynne link=topic=217.msg23718#msg23718 date=1235678171]...I think that might have been mine, lol. It's not there now but it sounds like something I might have written at some point.[/quote]Naah, the spelling on the site I read it was far too sloppy to be your work. Not to mention the punctuation. "For God's sakes, people - names begin with capital letters, and capital letters don't go after commas if it's not someone's name! *sob*"

Hmm, you have a point. It's just that a lot of the names in FFVII *do* seem to have meaning just on their own (e.g. Aerith/Aeris similar to the Greek "Eris", goddess of discord and strife), but then you get a guy called "Cloud"... I wonder what they were thinking of (or not).

With Lucrecia's surname being Crescent, I think that was a lot more conscious, as I believe they only came up with that for DC.

...Y'know, I think we've almost run the etymology thing into the ground now. I'm starting to not be able to think of interesting things to say. :-\ (I dare ya to say I wasn't interesting before...)

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

Naah, the spelling on the site I read it was far too sloppy to be your work. Not to mention the punctuation. "For God's sakes, people - names begin with capital letters, and capital letters don't go after commas if it's not someone's name! *sob*"

Well, it could have been someone who ripped me off, too. My site's been around for almost a decade. It's been known to happen a few times before.


It's fairly obvious that they only came up with Crescent for DoC, but the fact that they gave her a last name relating to light for DoC reinforces the idea that they were aware of her first name's relation to light.

And apparently Aerith's name was meant to resemble "Earth." In the katakana, the A and E are reversed. Earisu. "aeris" also means air in Latin so there were a whole bunch of interesting ideas about that one. Funny, though, that they all relate to gods and elements.

But anyway. New topic. ;D

Since I dug up that Lost Order recap last night, it would be appropriate to share it here also, yeah?

On the Ship
Passengers walk about the ship deck as Vincent descends a flight of stairs. Looking around, as he passes by a room in hallway where music can be heard. Stepping inside, Vincent recognizes the song:

"This music…" Vincent remarks has his mind fades white and recalls a time when as a Turk he and Lucrecia danced. "Vincent" Lucrecia says,

"Yes?" Vincent asks.

"Dance with me." Lucrecia asks as she turns a radio on. Shocked Vincent backs away replying:

"W-What, no… no I can't dance."

"So you don't like me." she responds as she takes hold of his hand and begins to guide him as they begin dancing. "No, no that's not what I…" he begins to say before being interrupted by her response. "Then dance with me."

Continuing to dance as Lucrecia comments, "See, it isn't that bad is it."

As the memory fades and Vincent returns back to reality, he soon realizes that passengers have begun shouting for help as Sahagins appear and enter the room with Vincent.


Ship Exterior

Killing the two Sahagin in the room, Vincent rushes out of the room and is met by a sailor that informs him of the ship's status of being invaded and sinking.

"The life rafts have jammed, and the security barriers are active; please help the passengers escape."

Vincent begins eliminating the invading Sahagin and Gargoyles on the ship as he searches the area to deactivate barriers and unlock the rafts full of passengers. After freeing the first raft and barrier, Vincent frees the second raft before manning a turret as hordes of Gargoyles appear. Remedying the problem, Vincent unlocks that last barrier and raft. As it descends, a woman jumps off the raft shouting "My Research!" and dashes by Vincent and into the ship. Vincent soon follows after her as he yells.

"Wait, get back on the raft! Its dangerous!"


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Mystery Woman

Inside the ship Vincent catches up with the woman. "You can't go back." he says, "But my luggage?" the mysterious woman replies.

"Leave it."

"No… I cant, all of my research will go to waste."

"Research?"

Vincent recalls another moment with Lucrecia due to the remarkable resemblance this woman has to her. The two are dancing within the research lab as Vincent comments, "Yeah, this isn’t… too bad." Next to where they are dancing, the Protomateria is sitting on the desk as Vincent notices it.

"Huh… isn't that?" Vincent asks.

"That's your…oh never mind." Lucrecia begins to say before stopping herself.

"Is it important?" Vincent asks.

"Yes, very important." Lucrecia states as the memory fades to the current situation. Inside the ship, Vincent turns to the mysterious woman and asks if it's important. "Yes, very important." the mysterious woman replies. "Alright, but I'm coming too." Vincent commands.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Ship Interior

"Stay close." Vincent tells the woman as she acknowledges. Delving into the lower decks of the ship, Vincent leads the woman who resembles Lucrecia to find her luggage. Her appearance is uncanny if only that she wears her hair down and wears green pants and jacket with a black shirt underneath. Vincent and the woman come across Sahagins. Upon reaching the lowest level, the woman spots her luggage and speaks with Vincent.

"I found it."

"Come on, we have to get out of here." Vincent says as they turn to leave and head back for the deck of the ship. Racing up the various corridors of the ship as it slowly sinks and is filling up with water, they encounter more Sahagins forcing Vincent to change into Galiant Beast and eliminate the rest of them.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Protect the Woman

"Thank you so much." the woman says to Vincent outside the ship; "My research is safe. It means everything to me." As she leaves and Vincent watches her go, "thank you" she says once more as it brings back memories of the time he as a Turk danced with Lucrecia. "Sometimes… I get so involved with my research that I lose myself." Lucrecia says before continuing, "When ever that happens though, … you always come to my rescue… thank you Vincent."

"What?" he asks.

"Nothing… I just wanted to thank you." Lucrecia comments as the memory fades away to Vincent leaning over the rail as the raft carrying away the mysterious woman floats away. Pondering about these flashbacks, he attempts to understand what happened back then.

"Her research… wasn't it the Jenova project?"

"She… was in… pain. I…"

"Why?"

"Is it important?"

"Yes, very important." he recalls the mysterious woman claiming.

"Yes, very important." It was the same thing Lucrecia had said.


... (irrelevent combat stuff)


Black Widow Battle

Reaching an area where Cerberus will do the most damage, Vincent prepares to attack when the Black Widow leaps over Vincent's head and unleashes its' Beam Cannon knocking Vincent against a wall of the ship. Leaning against the ship, the Protomateria lies exposed from Vincent's chest causing Vincent to recall another moment of Lucrecia holding the protomateria.

"Were you in pain?"

"Back then… I couldn't…"

"I have to make it there…to Shin-Ra Manor."

Vincent stands up and steps forward as if filled with a newly found strength.

"To find out about her."


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Ship Main Deck

Attacking the Black Widow with Cerberus while periodically changing into Galiant Beast; he eventually destroys the Black Widow and watches as it goes over the edge of the ship. The ship begins to capsize and Vincent ends up sinking below as crates and barrels float about him. "Not much longer now." Vincent thinks before he begins to hear Lucrecia’s voice.

"I’m… sorry, I… can't take it anymore."

"LUCRECIA!"

A bubble floats up near Vincent's face when an image of Lucrecia sitting on the ground of the lab frustrated appears in his mind.

"Live"

"Live… Vincent."

Surfacing Vincent floats about surrounded by the wreckage of the ship when he slowly starts to rise out of the water. Moments later, a submarine appears below him as it raises itself to the surface. Turning toward the hatch as he hears it open, Cait Sith pops out.

"Vincent, ya nae look'in good ged. I knew something was up. Glad I dropped in to see ya." said the little fur-ball in an outlandish Scottish accent.

"Cait Sith… hmf … Reeve." Vincent replies.

"Well done laddy, No.3 ready and at yer service."


Vincent Saved

As Vincent and the little cat known as Cait Sith walk toward the Sub's front railing; Cait Sith speaks his mind.

"I didn't feel right bout things."

"So I followed ye…er and came to help."

"Yeah, thanks." Vincent says.

"Donna mention it, anyway I still feel something's not right."

The ship continues it course; a darkness follows. Nero becomes visible within the darkness and says, "At last. I have borne witness to the darkness inside you."

Meanwhile, Cait Sith continues, "Something got to be afoot, an round here too."

"Just as strong as I thought. Your darkness… that stagnate life; you are more like us then you know. But it seems I have other matters, which need attending."

"An intruder in my most precious… precious place."

"All who come close to him will be eliminated."

"Vincent Valentine, we shall meet soon enough." Nero says concluding before vanishing into his void of darkness and disappearing.

Meanwhile, Vincent thinks out loud of what he believes is about to unfold.

"Shin-Ra Manor."

"Everything, everything started there."

"All of my sins… call that place home."

"I might find something out about her… her research."

"Lucrecia."

Images flood Vincent's mind as images of Lucrecia, Hojo, being in the tube, seeing the protomateria, Lucrecia within the crystal, and the Shin-Ra Manor entrance.

"I'm going back, again."

"To the place you were, to Shin-Ra Manor."

As Vincent and Cait Sith enter in the submarine, it continues its' course as two helicopters join it in a escort toward Costa del Sol.


TO BE CONTINUED IN… Dirge of Cerberus – Final Fantasy VII

source: http://www.dirgeofcerberus.net/ff7dc/information/script/le.php

Obviously it's not just a script. It was "novelized" by Shinra Employee #080729 for AC.net/DOC.net. While I assume he kept the dialogue the same, the narrative is his own, and the atrocious grammar likely is as well.

I feel that a knowledge of these events in Lost Episode is important to a discussion about Vincent and Lucrecia because it provides a glimpse of Lucrecia's feelings toward Vincent. Chronologically, the game pretty much skips from their lunch to when Vincent finds out about his father. Assuming the picnic was fairly early in their friendship, we really don't see much about how it blossomed or how far it went.

Lucrecia's words while they dance in LE make it pretty obvious that she felt something for him. "Sometimes... I get so involved with my research that I lose myself. Whenever that happens though...you always come to my rescue... Thank you, Vincent." He meant something to her. Something important. And when he questions her on this, she declines to explain herself, simply saying, "Nothing... I just wanted to thank you." Now if her feelings here were something that were less difficult to put into words, she probably would have bothered to do so. ("Oh well you know you're always helping me out and you're such a good friend" etc.) But that she just leaves it at "thank you" implies that he has a deeper effect on her than that, and it's not something she wants to talk about.

There's also the fact that she comes very close to acknowledging his feelings for her when she says, "So you don't like me, then." ("No, that's not it.&quot "Then [if you like me,] dance with me." Sure, it could be a platonic sort of like, but when you're saying you like me = you should dance with me, it sort of implies that it isn't.

The prologue of the game also contains something that VinLu fans should smile at:

As Vincent battles the
Ever-persistent Deepground,
He soon becomes aware of a
Hidden facet of his true
Nature.

And after putting together all
The lost pieces, Vincent
Realizes that the answers to
The questions about his past
Lie with his one true love—

Doctor Lucrecia Crescent


And so Vincent sets off for
Shinra Manor in search of a
Truth he may be unable to
Handle…

Yep, there it is in canon text. Lucrecia is Vincent's "one true love." And this part I have seen myself, because there was a YouTube video up for a while of some people playing the prologue and only the prologue on a cell phone at some convention or something.


Let's hear everyone else's thoughts on Lost Episode as it relates to Vincent and Lucrecia as well. =)

 

[Mantichorus]

Far too much said in that post for me to quote single passages of it...so here we go...

Yeah, you can't trust some of the people on the internet, can you? And my point about her surname being chosen for DC is that when they first decided to name her Lucrecia, they weren't entirely aware of the link with light. (I truly think some of the stuff in the Compilation was inspired/ripped off from fan sites.)

Yeah, I've heard that (but not about aeris/air. Interesting...).

-------------------------------------------------------

Hey, thanks for sharing. I think some of the dialogue may have been tweaked, too. Or maybe he used synonyms for the basic translations. Mind you, they say there's no such thing as a perfect translation...

"So you don't like me?" That sounds just how I imagined her. Slightly coy and flirty, playful... It's nice. And how does the saying go? "Dancing is a vertical expression of a horizontal desire."

That bit from the prologue doesn't really surprise me. Any fool who played VII could tell what Vincent felt for her was true love.

Everyone else's views, huh? Let's hope I'm not the only "everyone else".

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

That bit from the prologue doesn't really surprise me. Any fool who played VII could tell what Vincent felt for her was true love.

Yes but some fools aren't too clear on the "one" part.

I think some of the dialogue may have been tweaked, too. Or maybe he used synonyms for the basic translations.

What leads you to believe that? As far as I know, only Victoria could confirm that for us, as I don't think anyone else (in the world, lolz) has played LE. I'm open to the possibility that he could have changed the dialogue for whatever reason, but I don't see what his motive would be for doing that.

While I was searching for the "script," though, I did find some bittorrent downloads of what seemed to be an emulated version of the game, but Norton got squeamish about the webpage where the downloads were listed when I opened it, so I haven't been bold enough to actually try downloading any (especially since I just got over one devastating virus that killed everything I've ever known digitally).

I do hope to go back there eventually and see if I can get my hands on anything without killing my computer. I would love to get screen caps and/or movies of that game. And, of course, verify the script. But not before backing up my entire hard drive. =|

I get the impression that they were just slow dancing, though, so I guess her horizontal desire is to cuddle. xD

 

[Mantichorus]

OK, I'm going to try to express this clearly, so please bear with me while I struggle.

As you said when you posted it, you mentioned that it wasn't a straight transcription but a "novelisation". In my experiences, when game scripts are "novelised" by fans, things are changed. This can be just to add depth (example: one FFVII novelisation I read had a chapter devoted to a diplomatic meeting between Rufus and Godo, shortly after Rufus became president), but sometimes it can be to make things more to the writer's own style.

This is where my previous comment about synonyms comes in. A character may say something in the game, but when the fanfic author novelises it, s/he finds it very difficult to just leave it. They then realise why this is: they've always felt that particular line (whether in sentiment, or just the wording) was unworthy/out-of-character of the character. They then put it how they think the character would say it (or maybe just remove it).

However, by changing the wording, even slightly, they may have lost some of the original writer's intent behind the statement.

An example of what I mean: Lucrecia says "See, it isn't that bad is it." The original Japanese may have read along the lines of: "Well? Is it really so bad?" The difference is the second comes across (to me at least) as slightly more playful, while the first could come across as slightly scolding.

Hopefully, I've managed to make some sense. But that's pretty wildly off-topic.

Thankfully, I've managed to stay clear of virusses for the most part, but my pendrive has spontaneously corrupted before. :-\ (Maybe you might wanna try using a public access PC for downloading it.)

It's a nice horizontal desire.

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

It's possible, though I think the purpose of providing DOC.net with the "novelization" was to provide the script as well with extra description. Since there was no e-mail with the author credit and only his ACF username, we'll just have to ask Victoria.

Speaking of wildly off topic (or horizontal desires?), and because no one else will laugh with me ( D: D: D: ), I parodied a panel from p. 29 of Redemption, which I will of course assume you've already read in its original state!:

 

[Mantichorus]

Well, I wasn't saying that was what happened, I'm just wary of fan translations. In part, it's cos there was a line in an early AC screening translation (before it was completed) where Cloud tells Vincent to look after Marlene, cos he has to talk to "those ShinRa buggers". Plus, the subtitles to anime opening songs on DVDs never match the online translations.

Sorry. Remember what they say about "assume"? Yeah, I'm an ass. But still, it's funny! Thanks for sharing. (It's Vincent and Lucrecia - it's on-topic.)

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

It wasn't a fan translation, to my knowledge. The translating was done by SE. It was transcribed by a fan.

 

[Mantichorus]

[quote author=Ravynne link=topic=217.msg29075#msg29075 date=1236729108]It wasn't a fan translation, to my knowledge. The translating was done by SE. It was transcribed by a fan.[/quote]See, now, I did not know that. So now I look a fool. I thought it was a fan translation - or "fanslation", if you prefer - not a transcribation. Withdraw all reservations, yer Honour.

Now, I've found the lyrics to a song that I think fits Vincent and Lucrecia's relationship quite well. It's "I'll Be Your Mirror", by the Velvet Underground.

I'll be your mirror
Reflect what you are, in case you don't know
I'll be the wind, the rain and the sunset
The light on your door to show that you're home

When you think the night has seen your mind
That inside you’re twisted and unkind
Let me stand to show that you are blind
Please put down your hands
cause I see you

I find it hard to believe you don't know
The beauty that you are
But if you don't let me be your eyes
A hand in your darkness, so you won't be afraid

When you think the night has seen your mind
That inside you’re twisted and unkind
Let me stand to show that you are blind
Please put down your hands
cause I see you

I'll be your mirror
(Repeat til fade)

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

art.

info.
"And I Do Love You" by *RavynneNevyrmore on deviantART

 

[Mantichorus]

Welcome back, Ravy! I trust you've been well?

Truly awesome pic. The look of grief on Lucrecia's face is palpable. It's almost as if you'd managed to get a photo just split seconds before she started crying...

Well, I'd like some opinions on something. For a while now, I've wanted to do a series of... vigenettes, I suppose you'd call them, based on FF characters and Tarot cards (I'm currently only thinking of tackling the major arcana, although I may also do some for the minor arcana, too).

I've pretty much decided on Vincent and Lucrecia as The Lovers (wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lovers), but this opens up a few interesting ideas in my head. Despite the fact these'll be just text ideas, there are parts of the appearence of the tarot cards that I want to deal with. With The Lovers, the points are:

1) on the card, the angel Raphael is seen above the Lovers. Who would take this role in FFVII canon? Grimoire? Sephiroth? Gast? Someone else?

2) in some tarot traditions, it's held that the pair on The Lovers card are the same couple who are later found bound on The Devil card (of course, in those tarot decks where the couple with the Devil aren't captive, this myth isn't upheld). My first thought was to have Chaos reigning over as the Devil, but perhaps Hojo would be more fitting?