Innocent Sin v2.0 - Vincent x Lucrecia

[paoo]

Oh, I love this pairing. Their love is so tragic.. Vincent and Lucrecia are tragic characters too.. T^T

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

I never left this club.

1) on the card, the angel Raphael is seen above the Lovers. Who would take this role in FFVII canon? Grimoire? Sephiroth? Gast? Someone else?

I'm not sure what Raphael is meant to represent, but I'd lean towards Grimoire. I have a crack theory that he fixed Vincent and Lucrecia up from beyond the grave. (Or, maybe less crack-induced, before he died.)

Jenova may be an option too, depending on what Raphael is supposed to represent.

2) in some tarot traditions, it's held that the pair on The Lovers card are the same couple who are later found bound on The Devil card (of course, in those tarot decks where the couple with the Devil aren't captive, this myth isn't upheld). My first thought was to have Chaos reigning over as the Devil, but perhaps Hojo would be more fitting?

No, definitely Chaos. Hojo is too cliche, and Chaos is more supernatural. Hojo isn't exactly an incarnation of evil; he's just a fucked up human.

Jenova would be an option here as well, especially since she could be considered the "Devil" of the entire compilation whereas Chaos is really only an issue to Vincent's substory. The Devil is universal, or meant to be. Chaos would suit Vincent and Lucrecia quite well, but then ignores the relationship that the Devils hould have to everyone in the "world."

The Lovers are also a reminder that we need others to become fully human.

And this, right here, is why VinLu is such a beautful pairing. =P Vincent has that fixation with his humanity or lack thereof, but it's his love for Lucrecia and the purity of it that makes him human. Heck, he acknowledged as much in Dirge when he tried to explain to Shelke why Shalua sacrificed herself.

Oh, I love this pairing. Their love is so tragic.. Vincent and Lucrecia are tragic characters too.. T^T

Welcome. =) Shall I add your name?

 

[Mantichorus]

@xAerith: welcome to the club. Hope you enjoy your time with us.

@Ravy: no, but it's been a while since I last heard from you. Too long, in fact.

Umm, OK, according to my book, Tarot for Writers, Raphael is present in the form of a guardian. As some tarot decks place the couple as Adam and Eve, Raphael is guarding them from the outside world, including the knowledge of good and evil (as in the card, they haven't eaten from the tree yet). And as Raphael means, literally, "God heals"... so, yeah, Grimoire.

Ooh, good point on using Jenova as "the Devil". That gives me something else to think on...

Yeah, that's definitely true. I feel more attached to humanity while under the influence of love. Hmm, this really isn't the place, but I took Shalua's sacrifice as less an act of humanity, and more an act of grace. But, grace is an impossible state to describe.

 

[Dante]

Can I join? I love Vincent/Lucrecia because of the tragedy of their romance and Lucrecia doesn't realize that she loves him until he dies. Sad but sweet.

 

[Mantichorus]

By all means! Welcome to the club, Dante. Hope you enjoy your time with us.

And romantic tragedy seems to speak to something primal in the human soul...

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

I've made a social group out of Innocent Sin, accessible from our profiles. I haven't used social groups before, but it seems like a better way to handle clubs IMO. So anyone who prefers/likes to use social groups can now find Innocent Sin there and maybe help me upload some pictures.

 

[Mantichorus]

Umm, for the net-illiterate like myself, may I just ask... how does a social group work, and how does it differ from a club? As for pictures, most of the ones I have are ones you've directed me to. Still, I shall consult the archives...

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

I don't know. Seems like its own separate little forum with a good way to display pictures and member list.

 

[Mantichorus]

Well, that's already a good place to start, not knowing.

Hmm, not sure whether it would count as Vincrescent or no, but I seem to remember on one CD that I saved a short doujin that had Vincent and Lucrecia in it, around the time of the Jenova Project. Course, it's written as a "humorous" look at Vincent's, ahhh, entusiasm, so it may not be to everyone's tastes. But, the art's good. So, yeah.

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

Inorite?

It sure sounds Vincrescent to me. Is it Nightmere [sic]? Share, by all means.

 

[Mantichorus]

Umm, it may be. Unfortunately, I can't comment, as it was something that was posted on ACF years ago - as in, before I remember seeing you on there. I didn't make any note of where it was from, or who it was by, or anything. If anyone can fill in those gaps, I'd be more than happy.

Page 1:
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a80/Mantichorus/VinLu doujinshi/Translate1.jpg

Page 2:
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a80/Mantichorus/VinLu doujinshi/Translate2.jpg

Page 3 (PNG instead of JPG as photobucket kept refusing to load the JPG version. Weird):
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a80/Mantichorus/VinLu doujinshi/Translate3.png

Page 4:
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a80/Mantichorus/VinLu doujinshi/Translate4.jpg

Oh, and in the same folder, I found some Honeybee Manor pics of Vincent and Lucrecia, but I think I heard something about the artist not liking people posting their own links to his/her works...

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

Hah, that's not Nightmere, but I have seen that one around. There was also a funny cosplay skit done of it by a pair of Hojo/Lucrecia shippers:
http://www.animemoirs.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=585.

Honeybee Manor artist doesn't want his/her work linked to? That's kinda tough cookies, since anything on the internet is fair game for linking. That's like saying you're not allowed to tell us it exists. I certainly CBA to go hunting for it myself. But anyway, most VinLu fans know of Honeybee Manor, since it is linked to on just about every Vincent fansite in existence. At least the ones that matter. (And by that, I mean Crimson Shroud. )

Also, the graphic that we were using before for Innocent Sin, that I replicated for this incarnation on the first page, was from Honeybee Manor, and the first person who bastardized it didn't credit that at all. Whoops. Guess it will stay there until the artist learns English and asks me to remove it.

 

[Mantichorus]

Ooh, I'll have to check that skit out another time, as my home net access isn't fast enough to deal with streaming vids. I speak from experience from trying to visit youtube.

Ahh, I may not have made myself clear. The artist/owner of Honeybee doesn't object to people linking to their site, but to people hosting their own links (e.g. posting it on imageshack). It may have been worded that they just objected to people posting pics without acknowledging their source, which is understandable. It was a long time ago I read it, and I can't check the details as it was on ACF. That place going down screwed my sources over in so many ways.

...We need topic. And I need to find out the details of that doujin before adding it to the social group page. Or post it there and let other people do the work for me...

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

I don't know if I ever mentioned this before, or if it's relevent to much, but I think it's interesting.

Take a look at this—

This is a page from the doujinshi Pieta by Hiromichi Asoh. I don't think it lists a page with copyright info and the year on it like American books do—are they even copyrighted anyway?—but I've owned it for years. I think it was the first doujin that I bought. This was scanned ages ago, and someone was kind enough to provide me with an English translation of the dialogue that I Photoshooped in in place of the Japanese text. The translation itself was also given to me years ago (by Immortal Mint), and years before Dirge of Cerberus.

This is the first instance I've seen of Lucrecia actually witnessing what happened to Vincent. If you remember the FF7 flashback, she collapsed and then Vincent ran in to confront Hojo, so most people assume that was when she "died" and she wouldn't have been aware of what happened to anyone after that.

But more interesting is, of course, the "I'm so sorry," and the fact that she says it more than once. There's also a panel on the previous page that appears in Dirge:

Note the shot of the chandeleir in the last panel.

http://bluelaguna.net/viewimage/doc/fmvshots/1642/221.jpg

^ This is a random image that we're shown while Hojo goes on his Evil Mad Scientist Monologue after shooting Vincent, the ceiling above their heads when it happens. The image of them standing beneath it from that angle never appears, but we do see Vincent running in from his own POV and approach Hojo, stopping approximately that far from him and likely displaying the same body language seen here. Hojo, at least, seems to be displaying the same body language, minus the lolobvious gun in his hand.

http://bluelaguna.net/viewimage/doc/fmvshots/1642/194.jpg

I just thought it was neat. =o Particularly Lucrecia's apology.

...And you can read all of Pieta on my website, if you'd like.

 

[Kamui]

Absolutely interesting pictures et speculation! I really must pop in more often. If anyone would like I was planning on a dojunshi shopping spree here soon so if you want pics I can get you some. See I found a place in Florida that sells dojunshi, either that or SWACE will be a good place to pick some up.

Which reminds me I had an idea to do a Vincent & Lucrecia video! After about 5 Crisis Core vids later... anyway I was wondering if anyone had any song suggestions, because it's either you guys pick or I'm going with finally putting up one to Todokanai Ai Toshite Iru No Ne Osae Kirezuni Aishitsuzuketa.

Other than that... I had a strange idea of Wizard of Oz crossover with FFVII. All because I was playing DoC and I saw Lucrecia had on red slippers and I thought it seemed like a good idea. Though now I keep having flashes of Vincent as Toto...

So yeah! Great dojunshi pics!

 

[Mantichorus]

This fully supports my theory that SE have based the compilation on fan works. :hmm: But, yeah, you're right. Most people (me included) had presumed she'd died when she keeled over in Vincent's flashback in VII.

As for Hojo's "lolobvious" ( ) gun, that's a complete retcon. Even with VII's less than cutting edge graphics, it was obvious that Hojo pulled it out and shot Vincent. He wasn't waving it around, and he seemed to have some distress (even if it was just cos Vincent was shouting at him). In DC...

V: "ZOMG, Hojo, Lucrecia's in danger, and I seem to be ignoring your gun."
H: "Silencccce!!!" *bang*

Still, thanks for pointing that out. I've read so few doujin I wouldn't've realised. :-/

Kam - hmm, well, I could mention "Worry About You" by Eve, from the opening of Kingdom Hospital, or "If I Apologised" by Josephine Cronholm, from Mirrormask... but, what sort of tone do you want for the vid?

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

@Kam, of course doujinshi scans are always welcome. And you've asked us the question regarding music before. I gave you my answer last time, and I don't think you paid much attention, so you're probably just going to go with something you already had in mind anyway, right?

My best advice would be to use a song with English lyrics. There's little point to an FMV if we can't understand what the song is about.


@Manti, Lol, your parody is so right. And yeah, I don't think it was ever disputed that it wasn't retcon. It seems like they retconned all the sense out of Hojo, actually. And that's why it's the one retcon (and by one I mean all of Hojo's "new" character in DoC) that I somewhat refuse to accept.

I don't think it was your theory. I think it was more or less admitted by them outright. I can quote where they said it about Lucrecia, at least.


Oh, and a fairly interesting VinLu tangent arose on the LTD thread yesterday. There was some bogus info on Lucrecia's page at finalfantasy.wikia.com that said that arranging her thought fragments into super secret combinations spelled out the phrases "I loved Vincent with all my heart" and "Please don't die on me, I love you!" I've since corrected it, and also added some other info to the page, but it led Channy to compile all the things she says and try to arrange them into things.

http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=113644&postcount=7381

http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=113655&postcount=7383

http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=113683&postcount=7386

http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=114230&postcount=7391

I don't want to derail that thread any further but I thought I'd point it out to you guys in case you had any thoughts on it you'd like to share here.

 

[Mantichorus]

@Kam, of course doujinshi scans are always welcome. And you've asked us the question regarding music before. I gave you my answer last time, and I don't think you paid much attention, so you're probably just going to go with something you already had in mind anyway, right?

That was waaaay back on ACF, though. She's probably forgotten. Bless her little cotton socks.

@Manti, Lol, your parody is so right. And yeah, I don't think it was ever disputed that it wasn't retcon. It seems like they retconned all the sense out of Hojo, actually. And that's why it's the one retcon (and by one I mean all of Hojo's "new" character in DoC) that I somewhat refuse to accept.

I don't think it was your theory. I think it was more or less admitted by them outright. I can quote where they said it about Lucrecia, at least.

I wasn't saying that it was disputed as a retcon, I was just pointing out how big and obvious a retcon it was. OK, with the Nibelheim incident, they can pass it off as different accounts, but both of those scenes came straight from Vincent's memory. *bangs head*

Seriously?! O.o I didn't know that! But, I've been saying that about most the Compilation as info was released. What got me on to them was the release of the graphics for Vincent becoming Galian Beast in DC mere months after I'd written in a fanfic that as Vincent transformed he was surrounded by a "hlaf-sphere of pure energy". OK, mine was described as balefire, so I was thinking orange, while they went with purple, but still!

Hmm, I remember you bringing that up about the FFwikia before. But, it's interesting to read what you and Channy deliberated.

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

Yeah I thought I had brought it up here before, but here's the quote:

Is there a certain expectation you want to see for characters who appeared in FF7 [but weren’t really clearly shown back then in conceptual art]?

Nomura: About Lucrecia, since the leftover [remaining] information for her in FF7 was not found, it was really hard to recreate her. So we relied on guidebooks’ tiny little portraits, and the many drawings that fans did of her. Then we look at Sephiroth, the son of Hojo and Lucrecia, of course he looks more like Lucrecia [than Hojo] *laughs*. Based on all these points, this is how we establish the current Lucrecia that you see in DC today.

http://thelifestream.net/dirge-of-cerberus/1494/dirge-of-cerberus-interview-with-the-creators/

So they combined:

1. tiny, tiny guidebook portraits (not sure if they mean actual drawings or images of her FF7 sprite, but I'd assumed they used the FF7 sprite to some degree too)
2. fan art!!11
3. Sephiroth - Vincent lololol Hojo = Lucrecia

 

[Mantichorus]

Y'know... it really bothers me how Nomura always laughs when he says these things.

Anyway, that's some pretty interesting info (although, it kinda implies that this might not be the Lucrecia they invisioned when they first made FFVII...). Them saying that Seph resembles Lucrecia makes me satisfied, though, as I make a point in one AU of Vincent recognising Sephiroth because his facial structure resembles Lucrecia's.

Oh, and I have to apologise and correct myself: Worry About You, the theme from Kingdom Hospital, was sung by a singer called Ivy, not Eve as I previously said. In my defence, it's been quite a while since I last watched the DVDs.

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

Y'know... it really bothers me how Nomura always laughs when he says these things.

What's not funny about acknowledging that Sephiroth and Lucrecia are attractive but Hojo is ugly so Sephiroth looks more like his mother? He was making a dig at Hojo. I thought it was fairly amusing.

(although, it kinda implies that this might not be the Lucrecia they invisioned when they first made FFVII...)

Probably not, but I doubt they veered too far away from what they had in mind before. They may not have had the written notes to remind them of the little details they forgot, but someone had to remember the idea they came up with in the first place.

 

[Mantichorus]

What's not funny about acknowledging that Sephiroth and Lucrecia are attractive but Hojo is ugly so Sephiroth looks more like his mother? He was making a dig at Hojo. I thought it was fairly amusing.

Well, yeah, that is pretty funny. But, he also laughed when he said why he put Cait Sith on Nanaki's back (he had an idea for a game with a cat riding on a dog's back... but Nanaki is a cat, too! lol). Nomura always seems to laugh whenever he explains something, like he suddenly thinks it sounds ridiculous. Still, guy's pretty much a genius, so we can excuse him being a bit ...different.

Probably not, but I doubt they veered too far away from what they had in mind before. They may not have had the written notes to remind them of the little details they forgot, but someone had to remember the idea they came up with in the first place.

Good point. They aren't me, so they probably don't need to make little notes whenever they have an idea for a story point... or even just changing a character's name slightly.

Still, it does make me more curious as to what the original notes for Lucrecia said...

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

Well, have you seen what the original notes for Vincent said? We can infer from that to a degree, plus they contain some notes on Lucrecia, too.

http://thelifestream.net/final-fant...3-of-the-final-fantasy-vii-ultimania-omega/3/

Hojo’s research team consists of two people: Hojo (leader) and Lucrecia (female, an idol in the lab).

Lucrecia, the sole woman on the Hojo team, was Vincent’s favorite.

(Lol, out of a choice between two people, the other being Hojo? No shit.)

Hojo’s female colleague was on Vincent’s side. However, Hojo drugged her into unconsciousness and experimented on her. He was going to use her as a sample for the Jenova project. Vincent tried to save her, but fell into a trap and was put to sleep. He has no memories after that point. It appears that several people have been used as test samples in human experiments. And then they were put in coffins.

Vincent: “Lucrecia…. what happened to you after that?”

She was probably a lot flirtier. But one thing seems certain: she and Vincent were always written for each other.

 

[Mantichorus]

Lol, actually, yeah, I'd seen that... and forgot most of it. Still, you bringing it up again makes me again question: Lucrecia was an idol in the lab? What does that mean?

(Lol, out of a choice between two people, the other being Hojo? No shit.)

Well, I once met a Vin/Hojo shipper on ACF. She was a nice person, despite that... But, I kinda messed with her head when she read one of my AU fanfics, where

Spoiler

Vincent had been adopted by Hojo's parents

.

She was probably a lot flirtier. But one thing seems certain: she and Vincent were always written for each other.

She was flirtier than I'd originally imagined her in DC, so who knows where it could have gone? (For some reason, I imagine her singing "Santa Baby" to Vincent...)

But yeah, I can't imagine the game being the same if Vincent and Lucrecia hadn't been written for each other.

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

Lol, actually, yeah, I'd seen that... and forgot most of it. Still, you bringing it up again makes me again question: Lucrecia was an idol in the lab? What does that mean?

I believe they mean in the sense of all the guys idolized her, or crushed on her. Wasn't the word used at some point in reference to how the boys from Nibelheim all crushed on Tifa? Can't think of where to provide quotes, but I thought it had been at some point. Either way, it was translated by someone around here if you wanted to ask.

Well, I once met a Vin/Hojo shipper on ACF. She was a nice person, despite that... But, I kinda messed with her head when she read one of my AU fanfics, where

Spoiler

Vincent had been adopted by Hojo's parents.

I've come across quite a few of those in my time. I've actually found that Hojo fangirls tend to be HojoXVin shippers on the side. If I were to play psychologist, I'd say it's probably because they resent Vincent for having Lucrecia's affections, but at the same time they acknowledge Vincent's attractiveness, so rather than pair the man they resent with anyone else, or leave the man they'd like to root for out, they put Vincent and Hojo together. Or, it could also be a mechanism for them to keep Vincent away from Lucrecia, in a "If Hojo can't have Lucrecia then Vincent can't either!" sense. Hojo fangirls are almost always HojoXLu shippers, also. But I digress.

@spoiler: oh dear god. o.o

She was flirtier than I'd originally imagined her in DC, so who knows where it could have gone?

I think most people have that reaction, and the tendency to say that they "changed" her from how she was in FF7, but we didn't really SEE her in FF7. Certainly not enough to know how flirty she was or was not. Obviously, if what was in the EMF was what they started with, it wasn't contrived for DoC.

I wasn't too surprised by her personality in DoC in any respect. She was actually just as I had envisioned her. Vincent surprised me more.