a_apple 2.0
Pro Adventurer
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- a_apple
Trying to figure out this shit is half the fun
SPOILERS INTERmission Chapter 2 Spoiler Discussion
- Thread starter Tetsujin
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KindOfBlue
Pro Adventurer
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- Blue
Somebody help me figure out frog-themed names for the characters, Bribbit and Tifrog are the best I got
Obsidian Fire
Ahk Morn!
- AKA
- The Engineer
Those could also double as Elder God names of the characters... Yuffrog in particular...
MelodicEnigma
Pro Adventurer
That's so sincere that I kind of feel bad that my reaction to this is about the same when the game first dropped and everyone lost their minds:
cold_spirit
he/him
- AKA
- Alex T
As a big theorist myself, I also don't buy into the analysis of every trivial detail. It's gotta be something the camera obviously frames, like the Stamp chip bag. If a theory relies on a background detail that only appears for a few frames at the edge of the screen, then it's not a very strong theory.
Roundhouse
Pro Adventurer
I've come to realise something...
Like many of you, I came to FF through the OG. I loved it and still do. Over the years, we got the compilation, most of which I ignored and separated in my head from the original game. For Nomura, Nojima, and Kitase, though...that separation never took place. This remake project was never going to be VII all over again, because that time has passed -- now it's the VII Universe, like the MCU, and this universe informs everything, even the original game. So of course Zack is going to be involved, considering his immense popularity after Crisis Core...of course Reno is going to have more playfulness, as in Advent Children...of course Sephiroth is going to pop up a million times, because that's all he has done for years, even in a darn Mickey Mouse game.
It's tme to put on compilation goggles when looking at remake, and our theories will be all the better for it. With compilation goggles on, suddenly Zack seems far more important and close to essential to this story. Minimising him doesn't make sense.
Like many of you, I came to FF through the OG. I loved it and still do. Over the years, we got the compilation, most of which I ignored and separated in my head from the original game. For Nomura, Nojima, and Kitase, though...that separation never took place. This remake project was never going to be VII all over again, because that time has passed -- now it's the VII Universe, like the MCU, and this universe informs everything, even the original game. So of course Zack is going to be involved, considering his immense popularity after Crisis Core...of course Reno is going to have more playfulness, as in Advent Children...of course Sephiroth is going to pop up a million times, because that's all he has done for years, even in a darn Mickey Mouse game.
It's tme to put on compilation goggles when looking at remake, and our theories will be all the better for it. With compilation goggles on, suddenly Zack seems far more important and close to essential to this story. Minimising him doesn't make sense.
KindOfBlue
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Blue
Do I dare ask what this is about…
Odysseus
Ninja Potato
- AKA
- Ody
Eerie
Fire and Blood
I think this is what Nojima means when he says he wants to encapsulate the OG and the Compilation in Remake. This is why the Compilation is never going to be non-canon anymore. This is why when the devs have Cloud, Tifa and Barret looking over Midgar and discussing how they'll rebuilt 7th Heaven, it's a huge nod to CoT. And yes, this is why Zack's role is going to be big. I still say that if someone can save Aerith, it's him. We'll see how this goes. I still think he can't meet up with Cloud prior to at the very least the Northern Crater... There is a reason why Jenova made Cloud black out when Aerith mentioned his name. So, in the timeline, this is going to be difficult. But maybe they'll find something. I kind of think that Nojima wants a Zerith reunion while they're alive. Might be totally wrong, but the way the last scene in Intergrade is done is actually upping the hopes of a reunion between the two - they keep missing each other, so people will want them to reunite.
Roundhouse
Pro Adventurer
I agree, the biggest issue to solve here is how to get Zack interaction with the main crew without disrupting Cloud's story arc. Honestly, I have no idea how that can be done, unless...
Zack, Aerith, and Tifa basically make an agreement between them to keep Zack's history a secret for the good of Cloud. There is a bit of a precedent, as Tifa evades Cloud's uncomfortable question at one point, and at another point Aerith brushes off Cloud freaking out in the Temple and acts as if nothing happened, because they are both clearly confused and concerned about whatever is going on with him. If confronting him could trigger an 'attack', I can absolutely see why they wouldn't say or do anything.
That's the only solution I can think of...anything outside of that means Zack has to be kept away from interacting with the team in any substantial way until Cloud is enlightened.
Zack, Aerith, and Tifa basically make an agreement between them to keep Zack's history a secret for the good of Cloud. There is a bit of a precedent, as Tifa evades Cloud's uncomfortable question at one point, and at another point Aerith brushes off Cloud freaking out in the Temple and acts as if nothing happened, because they are both clearly confused and concerned about whatever is going on with him. If confronting him could trigger an 'attack', I can absolutely see why they wouldn't say or do anything.
That's the only solution I can think of...anything outside of that means Zack has to be kept away from interacting with the team in any substantial way until Cloud is enlightened.
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Odysseus
Ninja Potato
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- Ody
What do you think the impetus for him even going to look for them would be. What happened to his Cloud? If Zack's name is enough to set Cloud off, what would seeing him in the flesh do? Would the second half of the game just not happen at all? If Zack is there to say "um... actually Sephiroth, Cloud WAS there." At the north crater, then everything that should happen after doesn't need to unless it's needlessly contrived. Wouldn't exactly be "following the original with a few surprises."
These things are why I think it's not going to be as simple as Zack joining them at some arbitrary point and everything is fine afterwards and things happen the same but Zack's there.
These things are why I think it's not going to be as simple as Zack joining them at some arbitrary point and everything is fine afterwards and things happen the same but Zack's there.
Roundhouse
Pro Adventurer
'What do you think the impetus for him even going to look for them would be.'
Aerith! And possibly Cloud, depending on what is going on in that area (two Clouds, or one, or what?)
'What happened to his Cloud?'
No idea. I don't even know if there will be a second Cloud, as it would hopelessly complicate matters even more...
'If Zack's name is enough to set Cloud off, what would seeing him in the flesh do?'
This is a good point...depends on if Cloud's memory can access Zack's face, I suppose, or if it's locked under layers of Jenova weirdness.
'If Zack is there to say "um... actually Sephiroth, Cloud WAS there." At the north crater, then everything that should happen after doesn't need to unless it's needlessly contrived. Wouldn't exactly be "following the original with a few surprises."'
Depends. Cloud can still have a breakdown for a different reason related to Sephiroth, and Tifa can still come and help him in the lifestream. Events can be moulded to still fit, while the context differs.
Aerith! And possibly Cloud, depending on what is going on in that area (two Clouds, or one, or what?)
'What happened to his Cloud?'
No idea. I don't even know if there will be a second Cloud, as it would hopelessly complicate matters even more...
'If Zack's name is enough to set Cloud off, what would seeing him in the flesh do?'
This is a good point...depends on if Cloud's memory can access Zack's face, I suppose, or if it's locked under layers of Jenova weirdness.
'If Zack is there to say "um... actually Sephiroth, Cloud WAS there." At the north crater, then everything that should happen after doesn't need to unless it's needlessly contrived. Wouldn't exactly be "following the original with a few surprises."'
Depends. Cloud can still have a breakdown for a different reason related to Sephiroth, and Tifa can still come and help him in the lifestream. Events can be moulded to still fit, while the context differs.
Odysseus
Ninja Potato
- AKA
- Ody
Not what I meant. I mean, why would he have any idea where she is or what happened to her? Nobody in Midgar should know where the main party went after the shinra building.
They showed him after the whispers went kabooosh, there's no reason to assume there isn't another Cloud.
If he can remember his name, I'd hope he'd remember what he looked like lol.
I dunno, that relies on a lot of assumptions at present.
A more pragmatic reason I thought of for why Zack may never join the party, at least until after North Crater when Cloud is missing:
He'd play EXACTLY like Cloud does, give or take special abilities.
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Roundhouse
Pro Adventurer
'Not what I meant. I mean, why would he have any idea where she is or what happened to her? Nobody in Midgar should know where the main party went after the shinra building.'
Elmyra? Kunsel's mysteriously superb information network?
'They showed him after the whispers went kabooosh, there's no reason to assume there isn't another Cloud.'
True, but we still have zero idea what even happened there. Ultimately I look at it from a plot perspective -- would Zack do something for the story? Easily. Would two Clouds actually do anything for the story, other than make things even more complicated? I dunno, I can't see it. Therefore I would expect them to find a way around or out of it.
'If he can remember his name, I'd hope he'd remember what he looked like lol.'
This is true, haha. In that case...Zack should put on a disguise! (Okay that sounds silly even to me...I'm just brainstorming here.)
Elmyra? Kunsel's mysteriously superb information network?
'They showed him after the whispers went kabooosh, there's no reason to assume there isn't another Cloud.'
True, but we still have zero idea what even happened there. Ultimately I look at it from a plot perspective -- would Zack do something for the story? Easily. Would two Clouds actually do anything for the story, other than make things even more complicated? I dunno, I can't see it. Therefore I would expect them to find a way around or out of it.
'If he can remember his name, I'd hope he'd remember what he looked like lol.'
This is true, haha. In that case...Zack should put on a disguise! (Okay that sounds silly even to me...I'm just brainstorming here.)
Odysseus
Ninja Potato
- AKA
- Ody
I should say, I'm not disregarding Zack, I know he's gonna get involved somehow, I just don't think that "how" is him joining the party. If anything, I could see him getting a DLC episode where you play as him and see his side of things leading up to whatever his moment in the main story is..
Roundhouse
Pro Adventurer
Possible!
I've also seen someone suggest a Laguna style approach, which I quite like.
I've also seen someone suggest a Laguna style approach, which I quite like.
Obsidian Fire
Ahk Morn!
- AKA
- The Engineer
Zack going to Kalm is the easiest thing in the world. It's the closest village to Midgar. Anyone leaving Midgar would be headed there and it's less than 24 hours *walking* from Midgar. Zack looses nothing by checking in there to see if Aerith stopped by. And that's assuming he doesn't know anything.
Which we know he does. He knows who Elmyra is and what Aerith's living situation is (he mentions this in the OG). He also knows quite a few people around Sector 5 from CC. He has people to talk to he can find out Aerith's situation from. Weather it's that Aerith was taken away by the Turks or that Aerith is going out to Kalm (in the OG, Barret says he and Aerith called Elmyra to tell her to get out of Midgar and take Marlene with her... so...).
And then there's all the possible people at Shinra Zack knows who have good enough information networks that it's reasonable for them to know that he's back. And most of those people have a very long habit of leaking info to Zack even when they shouldn't...
The thing is... Zack isn't stupid. He knows how to find information he needs and then act on it. He's not just going to sit in Midgar and twiddle his thumbs if he doesn't find out what happened to Aerith. He's going to go looking for people he *knows* can tell him more info. And he has a very good idea of who probably knows all that stuff already.
Which we know he does. He knows who Elmyra is and what Aerith's living situation is (he mentions this in the OG). He also knows quite a few people around Sector 5 from CC. He has people to talk to he can find out Aerith's situation from. Weather it's that Aerith was taken away by the Turks or that Aerith is going out to Kalm (in the OG, Barret says he and Aerith called Elmyra to tell her to get out of Midgar and take Marlene with her... so...).
And then there's all the possible people at Shinra Zack knows who have good enough information networks that it's reasonable for them to know that he's back. And most of those people have a very long habit of leaking info to Zack even when they shouldn't...
The thing is... Zack isn't stupid. He knows how to find information he needs and then act on it. He's not just going to sit in Midgar and twiddle his thumbs if he doesn't find out what happened to Aerith. He's going to go looking for people he *knows* can tell him more info. And he has a very good idea of who probably knows all that stuff already.
Odysseus
Ninja Potato
- AKA
- Ody
Nobody knows they left Midgar, not even Shinra should. Barret's line telling Elmyra to go to Kalm isn't in the Remake. Last most people know, they were all in the Shinra building and escaped. Could be hiding in Midgar somewhere? No reason to be so assured they left that he'd book it to the next town right away. You can't assume Shinra was THAT good at keeping track of them if they were successfully hiding in a bar for years. Gathering enough info to reasonably suspect they left town at all would take some time.
Obviously his story is going to converge with theirs eventually, but I don't think he's going to haul ass to Kalm and join them at the beginning of Part 2, that would be ridiculous.
Also, again, how would they make Zack play meaningfully differently from Cloud if they were both in the party at the same time, and also all that other plot stuff I mentioned?
Obviously his story is going to converge with theirs eventually, but I don't think he's going to haul ass to Kalm and join them at the beginning of Part 2, that would be ridiculous.
Also, again, how would they make Zack play meaningfully differently from Cloud if they were both in the party at the same time, and also all that other plot stuff I mentioned?
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LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
Zack's Cloud is Duclox.
Obsidian Fire
Ahk Morn!
- AKA
- The Engineer
Zack has a *very* crazy Limit Break in Crisis Core. It basicly mimics varrients of everyone else's Limit Breaks. So that's probably a good starting place for his move set. He's also got 5+ years of actually using the Buster Sword under his belt while Cloud has 2 months *at most*. So there would be a good way to make their animations feel different.
Zack move-set can feel a lot more "in control" of his sword work and then mix in some his crazy limit breaks (sheathing his sword to punch stuff for Angeal's, having healing/sealing for Aeriths, Meteor Shots for Cloud's, never mind what new Limit Breaks he could come up with based on *everyone else* in AVALANCHE as he gets more weapons and gains in levels). Cloud move-set can feel more "uncontroled" and can have only his sword-based Limit Breaks to mix in. In general... Zack would feel more "jack of all trades" while Cloud would feel more "sword only" just based on their skill sets.
IDK... It feels like people are being deliberately obtuse with how to make Zack different than Cloud and how to make them work together in the story. Start with the assumption that they *will* meet up early rather than that they *can't* meet up and see how little you have to nudge the story to make it work? You really don't have to do a lot.
Incidently, Zack knows better that literally anyone else how... emotionally fragile... someone dealing with Jenova is. Cloud would be Round Four for him. Zack has watched his mentor commit suicide-by-cop, Sephiroth go crazy, Genesis go crazy (and then managed to cling to sanity *somehow*) and now Cloud go catatonic (and probably get amnesia). All from them figuring out that they were experimented on with Jenova's Cells. And Zack *knows* that happened to Cloud. So it's really not that far fetched to think that Zack would tread really lightly around Cloud in an effort not to push him over the brink into insanity. He knows where that leads already...
cold_spirit
he/him
- AKA
- Alex T
I wrote a post on this yesterday and then forgot to hit send
Yeah, I find the debate amusing on whether Yuffie meeting Nero is a retcon.
I know this viewpoint has been shared before, but to me, the fact that we're only one part into this series and we've already fought a manifestation of fate is... telling.
I don't see the Nomura-Kitase-Nojima trio saying to themselves "We want to implement this story idea but gosh darnnit that would retcon Dirge of Cerberus (one of the worst reviewed FFs). Shoot!" Especially after Chapter 18. Conforming to the canon set by AC and DC would only limit creativity at this point.
I see no financial benefit either. AC and DC have and can always be advertised as sequels to the original game. Everybody who experienced those titles went into them with that context in mind. 15 years later (and counting), having Remake lead into AC and DC isn't going to make enough people run out and buy those titles. Certainly not enough to guide creative decisions.
So if there's no financial gain, and they've gone so far as to write an in-universe way for them to subvert expected plot developments, I don't see any reason to reconcile Remake with AC and DC. I know this is one of those "well you don't know just wait and see" areas, but personally I'm not beholding Remake to anything that came before.