SPOILERS INTERmission Chapter 2 Spoiler Discussion

[Roundhouse]

'What do you think the impetus for him even going to look for them would be.'

Aerith! And possibly Cloud, depending on what is going on in that area (two Clouds, or one, or what?)

'What happened to his Cloud?'

No idea. I don't even know if there will be a second Cloud, as it would hopelessly complicate matters even more...

'If Zack's name is enough to set Cloud off, what would seeing him in the flesh do?'

This is a good point...depends on if Cloud's memory can access Zack's face, I suppose, or if it's locked under layers of Jenova weirdness.

'If Zack is there to say "um... actually Sephiroth, Cloud WAS there." At the north crater, then everything that should happen after doesn't need to unless it's needlessly contrived. Wouldn't exactly be "following the original with a few surprises."'

Depends. Cloud can still have a breakdown for a different reason related to Sephiroth, and Tifa can still come and help him in the lifestream. Events can be moulded to still fit, while the context differs.

 

[Odysseus]

Aerith! And possibly Cloud, depending on what is going on in that area (two Clouds, or one, or what?)

Not what I meant. I mean, why would he have any idea where she is or what happened to her? Nobody in Midgar should know where the main party went after the shinra building.

No idea. I don't even know if there will be a second Cloud, as it would hopelessly complicate matters even more...

They showed him after the whispers went kabooosh, there's no reason to assume there isn't another Cloud.

This is a good point...depends on if Cloud's memory can access Zack's face, I suppose, or if it's locked under layers of Jenova weirdness.

If he can remember his name, I'd hope he'd remember what he looked like lol.

Depends. Cloud can still have a breakdown for a different reason related to Sephiroth, and Tifa can still come and help him in the lifestream. Events can be moulded to still fit, while the context differs.

I dunno, that relies on a lot of assumptions at present.

A more pragmatic reason I thought of for why Zack may never join the party, at least until after North Crater when Cloud is missing:
He'd play EXACTLY like Cloud does, give or take special abilities.

 

[Roundhouse]

'Not what I meant. I mean, why would he have any idea where she is or what happened to her? Nobody in Midgar should know where the main party went after the shinra building.'

Elmyra? Kunsel's mysteriously superb information network?

'They showed him after the whispers went kabooosh, there's no reason to assume there isn't another Cloud.'

True, but we still have zero idea what even happened there. Ultimately I look at it from a plot perspective -- would Zack do something for the story? Easily. Would two Clouds actually do anything for the story, other than make things even more complicated? I dunno, I can't see it. Therefore I would expect them to find a way around or out of it.

'If he can remember his name, I'd hope he'd remember what he looked like lol.'

This is true, haha. In that case...Zack should put on a disguise! (Okay that sounds silly even to me...I'm just brainstorming here.)

 

[Odysseus]

I should say, I'm not disregarding Zack, I know he's gonna get involved somehow, I just don't think that "how" is him joining the party. If anything, I could see him getting a DLC episode where you play as him and see his side of things leading up to whatever his moment in the main story is..

 

[Roundhouse]

Possible!

I've also seen someone suggest a Laguna style approach, which I quite like.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Zack going to Kalm is the easiest thing in the world. It's the closest village to Midgar. Anyone leaving Midgar would be headed there and it's less than 24 hours *walking* from Midgar. Zack looses nothing by checking in there to see if Aerith stopped by. And that's assuming he doesn't know anything.

Which we know he does. He knows who Elmyra is and what Aerith's living situation is (he mentions this in the OG). He also knows quite a few people around Sector 5 from CC. He has people to talk to he can find out Aerith's situation from. Weather it's that Aerith was taken away by the Turks or that Aerith is going out to Kalm (in the OG, Barret says he and Aerith called Elmyra to tell her to get out of Midgar and take Marlene with her... so...).

And then there's all the possible people at Shinra Zack knows who have good enough information networks that it's reasonable for them to know that he's back. And most of those people have a very long habit of leaking info to Zack even when they shouldn't...

The thing is... Zack isn't stupid. He knows how to find information he needs and then act on it. He's not just going to sit in Midgar and twiddle his thumbs if he doesn't find out what happened to Aerith. He's going to go looking for people he *knows* can tell him more info. And he has a very good idea of who probably knows all that stuff already.

 

[Odysseus]

Nobody knows they left Midgar, not even Shinra should. Barret's line telling Elmyra to go to Kalm isn't in the Remake. Last most people know, they were all in the Shinra building and escaped. Could be hiding in Midgar somewhere? No reason to be so assured they left that he'd book it to the next town right away. You can't assume Shinra was THAT good at keeping track of them if they were successfully hiding in a bar for years. Gathering enough info to reasonably suspect they left town at all would take some time.

Obviously his story is going to converge with theirs eventually, but I don't think he's going to haul ass to Kalm and join them at the beginning of Part 2, that would be ridiculous.

Also, again, how would they make Zack play meaningfully differently from Cloud if they were both in the party at the same time, and also all that other plot stuff I mentioned?

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Zack's Cloud is Duclox.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Also, again, how would they make Zack play meaningfully differently from Cloud if they were both in the party at the same time, and also all that other plot stuff I mentioned?

Zack has a *very* crazy Limit Break in Crisis Core. It basicly mimics varrients of everyone else's Limit Breaks. So that's probably a good starting place for his move set. He's also got 5+ years of actually using the Buster Sword under his belt while Cloud has 2 months *at most*. So there would be a good way to make their animations feel different.

Zack move-set can feel a lot more "in control" of his sword work and then mix in some his crazy limit breaks (sheathing his sword to punch stuff for Angeal's, having healing/sealing for Aeriths, Meteor Shots for Cloud's, never mind what new Limit Breaks he could come up with based on *everyone else* in AVALANCHE as he gets more weapons and gains in levels). Cloud move-set can feel more "uncontroled" and can have only his sword-based Limit Breaks to mix in. In general... Zack would feel more "jack of all trades" while Cloud would feel more "sword only" just based on their skill sets.

IDK... It feels like people are being deliberately obtuse with how to make Zack different than Cloud and how to make them work together in the story. Start with the assumption that they *will* meet up early rather than that they *can't* meet up and see how little you have to nudge the story to make it work? You really don't have to do a lot.

Incidently, Zack knows better that literally anyone else how... emotionally fragile... someone dealing with Jenova is. Cloud would be Round Four for him. Zack has watched his mentor commit suicide-by-cop, Sephiroth go crazy, Genesis go crazy (and then managed to cling to sanity *somehow*) and now Cloud go catatonic (and probably get amnesia). All from them figuring out that they were experimented on with Jenova's Cells. And Zack *knows* that happened to Cloud. So it's really not that far fetched to think that Zack would tread really lightly around Cloud in an effort not to push him over the brink into insanity. He knows where that leads already...

 

[cold_spirit]

For me this isnt a retcon because I simply don't see Remake in the same continuity regardless of timeline shenanigans and Whisper plot ghosts. Like, Yuffie infiltrating DG during the OG simply doesn't happen as far as I'm concerned so it doesn't bother me.

I wrote a post on this yesterday and then forgot to hit send

Yeah, I find the debate amusing on whether Yuffie meeting Nero is a retcon.

I know this viewpoint has been shared before, but to me, the fact that we're only one part into this series and we've already fought a manifestation of fate is... telling.

I don't see the Nomura-Kitase-Nojima trio saying to themselves "We want to implement this story idea but gosh darnnit that would retcon Dirge of Cerberus (one of the worst reviewed FFs). Shoot!" Especially after Chapter 18. Conforming to the canon set by AC and DC would only limit creativity at this point.

I see no financial benefit either. AC and DC have and can always be advertised as sequels to the original game. Everybody who experienced those titles went into them with that context in mind. 15 years later (and counting), having Remake lead into AC and DC isn't going to make enough people run out and buy those titles. Certainly not enough to guide creative decisions.

So if there's no financial gain, and they've gone so far as to write an in-universe way for them to subvert expected plot developments, I don't see any reason to reconcile Remake with AC and DC. I know this is one of those "well you don't know just wait and see" areas, but personally I'm not beholding Remake to anything that came before.

 

[Alex Strife]

What if Zack went to the Church while Aerith was kidnapped, then left Midgar... and it turns out he is the one person the party is chasing? The black-caped man? They think it's Sephiroth but actually it's was Zack.

Thing is supposedly that fellow had the tatoo "0". I don't think Sephiroth has a tattoo. But Zack having "0" because his body did not react to Jenova might make sese... maybe.

I don't know, things are getting weird.

 

[Odysseus]

Zack has a *very* crazy Limit Break in Crisis Core. It basicly mimics varrients of everyone else's Limit Breaks. So that's probably a good starting place for his move set. He's also got 5+ years of actually using the Buster Sword under his belt while Cloud has 2 months *at most*. So there would be a good way to make their animations feel different.

Zack move-set can feel a lot more "in control" of his sword work and then mix in some his crazy limit breaks (sheathing his sword to punch stuff for Angeal's, having healing/sealing for Aeriths, Meteor Shots for Cloud's, never mind what new Limit Breaks he could come up with based on *everyone else* in AVALANCHE as he gets more weapons and gains in levels). Cloud move-set can feel more "uncontroled" and can have only his sword-based Limit Breaks to mix in. In general... Zack would feel more "jack of all trades" while Cloud would feel more "sword only" just based on their skill sets.

These are fair points, but thinking about how much range Zack has with his abiities just makes it make even more sense why he'd be the star of a solo campaign and not a part of the main group lol. I'm firmly in the "he'll be implemented like Laguna" camp I guess.

Yeah, I find the debate amusing on whether Yuffie meeting Nero is a retcon.

Oh no, it's totally a retcon. I'm just wondering if Square thinks it is lol. The fact there are no whispers tells me that things happened "as intended" which is kind of ridiculous.

I can see them going either way with AC and DC still happening after the remake.

 

[Eerie]

We're going to have a 2 team with Biggs and Zack. In a probable DLC. He's the best one to explain to Zack what happened, he's in sector 5 at the orphanage where Zack will probably drop by because it's on his way to Elmyra's. However, what happens there depends if he is on his own timeline or a merged timeline. That's about everyone's guess lol.

 

[Fiz]

Even as somebody who tried making a case for the single timeline theory, I’m not willing to put THAT much thought into trying to figure out what the hell is going on, I’m just along for the ride…my default answer for anything involving skyboxes and pre-render cutscenes is “it’s just a technical thing” until proven otherwise lol

Same, I’m very much in the single timeline camp. I arrive there because it makes sense that if Zack, Biggs or others are alive they will want to capitalise on the character relationships and drama that brings about. Isolating them and canning those opportunities seems unlikely.

I don’t think it needs a deep analysis.

 

[Dark and Divine]

For a time now, with subtle changes of events like Yuffie meeting Nero, I've been wondering if the FFVII Remake project will include remade versions of AC and DC, either as separate entries or included in the Remake itself.

 

[Roundhouse]

It makes sense on another level to keep Zack away from the main events -- if he gets involved, he'll solve this whole situation within a day. He would form a team with Genesis and Biggs, and Sephiroth would run like hell. (Biggs is just there for moral support.)

 

[Maidenofwar]

Hmm ... I don't know, it does feel like if in the same universe that if Zack doesn't catch up with the party at Kalm because reasons then they'll have to keep coming up with increasingly more convoluted reasons as to why Zack doesn't catch up whenever there is a lull in party down time where it seems like he could have.

 

[KindOfBlue]

Oh no, it's totally a retcon. I'm just wondering if Square thinks it is lol. The fact there are no whispers tells me that things happened "as intended" which is kind of ridiculous.

I can see them going either way with AC and DC still happening after the remake.

But it’s not really a retcon because it still never happened in the OG continuity as far as we know, I don’t think SE is expecting us to now retroactively consider that Yuffie and Nero fought before the Sector 7 plate fell in the OG

For a time now, with subtle changes of events like Yuffie meeting Nero, I've been wondering if the FFVII Remake project will include remade versions of AC and DC, either as separate entries or included in the Remake itself.

In a way we kinda already got a remade version of the AC Sephiroth fight in chapter 18, that coupled with the stuff in the DLC I feel like might cement what I’ve been saying the whole time about the events of AC and DC not happening after the remake’s version of the OG events but we still see elements of those stories woven throughout

I don't see the Nomura-Kitase-Nojima trio saying to themselves "We want to implement this story idea but gosh darnnit that would retcon Dirge of Cerberus (one of the worst reviewed FFs). Shoot!" Especially after Chapter 18. Conforming to the canon set by AC and DC would only limit creativity at this point.

I see no financial benefit either. AC and DC have and can always be advertised as sequels to the original game. Everybody who experienced those titles went into them with that context in mind. 15 years later (and counting), having Remake lead into AC and DC isn't going to make enough people run out and buy those titles. Certainly not enough to guide creative decisions.

So if there's no financial gain, and they've gone so far as to write an in-universe way for them to subvert expected plot developments, I don't see any reason to reconcile Remake with AC and DC. I know this is one of those "well you don't know just wait and see" areas, but personally I'm not beholding Remake to anything that came before.

Exactly what I’ve been theorizing since the remake’s ending lol

Some people may look at it as a retcon or killing AC and DC but no, because the events of those titles would’ve never happened in the remake’s continuity in the first place. AC and DC are the canon follow-ups to the OG, that has not changed and it will not change. But as for the remake specifically, if they really wanna play the “unknown journey” angle, they can lead us towards something new after the events of the OG story are covered while also incorporating Compilation elements early on as they’ve already been doing.

So can we still have Edge built from Midgar? Sure. New Seventh Heaven? Sure. Strife Delivery Service? Sure. Cloud and Tifa living together and adopting Denzel? Sure.

But Kadaj, Loz, and Yazoo? Killed them already with fate. Sephiroth, Jenova, geostigma? Maybe they’ll be gone for good. Deepground? Maybe we’ll beat them early. Cloud’s depression? Maybe whatever new stuff happens with Zack and Aerith will help resolve that. The sky’s the limit when you just think of the remake as a separate continuity without having to make sure that whatever happens it needs to fit into AC and DC, but who knows at this point.

EDIT: Reading through all the Zack discussion, I think whatever Compilation elements the remake wants to cover but can’t really fit in the main story with Cloud, maybe they should be covered by Zack’s story. Cloud and Zack do their own separate things for a while and then eventually, they either meet or if they are on separate timelines, they converge or something.

 

[Fiz]

Nobody knows they left Midgar, not even Shinra should. Barret's line telling Elmyra to go to Kalm isn't in the Remake. Last most people know, they were all in the Shinra building and escaped. Could be hiding in Midgar somewhere? No reason to be so assured they left that he'd book it to the next town right away. You can't assume Shinra was THAT good at keeping track of them if they were successfully hiding in a bar for years. Gathering enough info to reasonably suspect they left town at all would take some time.

Obviously his story is going to converge with theirs eventually, but I don't think he's going to haul ass to Kalm and join them at the beginning of Part 2, that would be ridiculous.

Also, again, how would they make Zack play meaningfully differently from Cloud if they were both in the party at the same time, and also all that other plot stuff I mentioned?

The Turks, the group bumps into them in Mythil Mines. Zack is close to the Turks so probably through them.

 

[looneymoon]

Just finished! Some immediate thoughts:

Nero is harder than Sephiroth is swear to god. I'm scared to fight him in hard mode.

Fort Condor is okay. Which is an improvement from what it is in the OG for me lmao.

Yuffie is great. Scarlet is great. Having these two interact was something I didn't know I wanted until I got it. My favourite line was, hands down, "teenaged ninjas."

Sonon... sucks. I don't have much to say other than the dude made me roll my eyes from the time he arrived to the time he left. I'm not really feeling the push to add more tragedy to Yuffie's backstory. The whole conclusion felt overly-saccharine and melodramatic for my liking, and I would have preferred if the tone of chapter 1 carried out through chapter 2 more.

That being said... I can't help but speculate on if his inclusion points towards getting Cid in pt 2. If that's the case, that means we'll be seeing... the whole party!?

The post credits scene was really good. I am admittedly very happy seeing the main party interact like this. It gives me vibes akin to the good parts of FFXV. This genuinely makes me look forward to a part two.

I don't really have much to say about Zack. I don't care. Same goes for Weiss and Nero for that matter (though I guess they're not really intrusive to the main story, so I care even less). The reminders of compilation elements continue to be something I get secondhand embarrassment out of more than anything else >__<

Overall this was good DLC. I didn't think it was omg fantastic or anything, but I had a decent time with it. Especially with the free ps5 upgrade (which looks incredible) it's definitely worth the investment. I'm sure I'll do hard mode at some point, but I'm not in any rush to right now.

 

[Eerie]

Sonon... sucks. I don't have much to say other than the dude made me roll my eyes from the time he arrived to the time he left. I'm not really feeling the push to add more tragedy to Yuffie's backstory. The whole conclusion felt overly-saccharine and melodramatic for my liking, and I would have preferred if the tone of chapter 1 carried out through chapter 2 more.

I'm not too keen on his character either, but he does make a good way for Yuffie to grow up a little and show us what she's like. Interestingly her line about not being his sister shows just what he saw in her (his sister) is completely wrong. I wonder if she keeps being misrepresented in Wutai (with people imagining what she is instead of looking at her true self), it would mean that the party would be the first people to really look at her and accept her for what she is. I could easily see that being integrated in her character, and it would explain why she becomes so attached to them. But that's just something my mind went on, who knows how it's going to get developped lol.

That being said... I can't help but speculate on if his inclusion points towards getting Cid in pt 2. If that's the case, that means we'll be seeing... the whole party!?

I think it really depends on how many parts we get. The more I look at Intergrade, the more doubtful I am about a 3 parts game. 4 parts seems more coherent with what we see. It would mean Cid and Vincent would be up for part 3, with Vincent being a guest in part 2 maybe, at the end of the game.

 

[cold_spirit]

Just wanted to post my favorite bit of dialogue from Intermission. It's also missable, just like my favorite dialogue from the main game . I love how it highlights the ideological differences between Wutai and Avalanche. Sonon's voice actor is also on point.

Yuffie
You remember what Nayo said? About helping us? That is was "necessary for building a brighter future"? What did she mean?

Sonon
Well... you know how it is between Wutai and Avalanche. We're never gonna see eye-to-eye. And we're bound to come up against each other someday. But, when we do, the fact they worked with us might help both parties put their differences aside and avoid a conflict. That's what I got out of it anyway.

Yuffie
Figured as much.

Sonon
Before you got here, I did a little bit or recon. Found out what they want. Free Elections, workers' rights, fair distribution of wealth... They don't see the world how we see it.

Yuffie
And when you look at the world, what is it that you see?

Sonon
Homes bombed to dust... plumes of gunsmoke... people pleading... bloodshed.

Yuffie
Me too. And I'll never forget.

 

[Odysseus]

Surprised how many people hate Sonon. He's not my favorite or anything, but I think he worked well enough as Yuffie's more mature counterpart. I like that he was clearly more radical and jaded than she was, but presented in a way that doesn't serve as a source of conflict.

 

[KindOfBlue]

Could be worse, at least Sonon’s not going on about CHAOS

 

[Makoeyes987]

Surprised how many people hate Sonon. He's not my favorite or anything, but I think he worked well enough as Yuffie's more mature counterpart. I like that he was clearly more radical and jaded than she was, but presented in a way that doesn't serve as a source of conflict.

Agreed. He's also a glimpse into the carnage Shinra unleashed on Wutai. Before, the only person who gave us any real indication of the consequences of Shinra's war against Wutai, was Yuffie herself. And she was pretty vague about it.

Now we have someone else. A direct perspective from Wutai. Someone who's lost family, friends and has a burning grudge against Shinra. The Wutai War isn't just some distant background history now, and its violence can still be felt in the present. Sonon is a laid back, mature yet surprisingly passionate person who definitely fits the big brother character trope, but it's not like FFVII has any of those characters...

Well, except for Weiss but he's definitely not a good big brother.

Just wanted to post my favorite bit of dialogue from Intermission. It's also missable, just like my favorite dialogue from the main game . I love how it highlights the ideological differences between Wutai and Avalanche. Sonon's voice actor is also on point.

You and me both. Definitely one of my favorite lines and interactions between the two. You could feel the pain in his voice. Really highlighted just what type of hell Wutai had suffered for simply saying no to a hostile corporate takeover.