Jessie, Biggs, and Wedge's Roles in the Remake Thread
- Thread starter The Twilight Mexican
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Knights of the Round
Pro Adventurer
Knights of the Round
Pro Adventurer
Was already there.
Saven
Pro Adventurer
Yeah that was just me responding to the Gilbert Gottfried comment which made me remember this video I was talking about earlier where he voices characters that do not fit with his voice at all like Liquid Snake from MGS, Celes from FFVI, or Ron Pearlman narrating the nature of war in the beginning of the Fallout games (he'd be great as Navi in a OOT remake however...):
Gilbert Gottfried voicing Jessie or really any of the characters in the game like Barret, Aerith, etc. would be unfitting and hilarious.
Gilbert Gottfried voicing Jessie or really any of the characters in the game like Barret, Aerith, etc. would be unfitting and hilarious.
Misterbadguy
Phantom Lord
- AKA
- METEODRIVE
I'd take Gilbert for Cait Sith over what we got in the Compilation any day, for sure.
Jairus
Author of FFVII: Lifestream & FFVII: Reflections
While I liked what we got of the trio, it just feels like more could've been given. Their exit after Chapter 4 felt abrupt, especially since aside from Biggs outside of Reactor 5, they weren't seen again for 8 entire chapters. We could've had scenes of them, Tifa, and Barret while Cloud was with Aerith - such as seeing how the trio reacted to the news of Cloud's fall, discovering Corneo's looking for them, discussing Tifa's plan, and showing how they found out about the pillar being targeted after she was gone (it's never explained how they knew). And the time in between the two reactor missions could've been expanded to give us much more to do with the trio than just one chapter, maybe even a real solo mission with Jessie without Biggs and Wedge tagging along. And a scene or two of her and Tifa and their friendship, which was barely acknowledged. If SE hadn't locked themselves into replicating the path of the OG for the sake of their metanarrative, they could've shown these things.
Not to mention that almost all of Jessie's memorable moments from the OG - her scene alone with Cloud in the cargo car where she cleans his face, her promise to make him an extra special ID just for him, her train disguise which Cloud could compliment her on, and her apology to him in the underplate - were all cut. They all could've been expanded to be really nice moments for the two of them, the face cleaning and apology especially, and by taking away her chance to be disguised, she lost her one chance to be seen in something other than her usual outfit. And her remake disguise wouldn't have needed to be a soldier's uniform. It could've been something more feminine, like being dressed as a Shinra secretary or something. Aerith and Tifa got 3 dresses each, but Jessie never got even 1. SE could've given us an actual flashback to actually show Jessie during her time on stage and allow her to have a dress that way, but they didn't. And a picture on the wall isn't the same as seeing her actual in-game model in a dress like Aerith and Tifa.
And lastly, the choice of who to give the flower to could've not only been retained, but expanded to include Jessie as a possible recipient. She clearly saw the flower - the camera does a closeup of her looking at it before her gaze shifts to Cloud - but she never even says anything about it. That's sloppy storytelling. Basic storytelling rules state that if an object is emphasized in relation to a given character, something needs to happen between that character and that object at some point to justify that emphasis. But as I said, Jessie wasn't even allowed to say anything about it and she should've been even if we couldn't have given to her. It could've been made into a non-choice like getting the flower was. But instead, it became another missed opportunity. One of many in her case.
Not to mention that almost all of Jessie's memorable moments from the OG - her scene alone with Cloud in the cargo car where she cleans his face, her promise to make him an extra special ID just for him, her train disguise which Cloud could compliment her on, and her apology to him in the underplate - were all cut. They all could've been expanded to be really nice moments for the two of them, the face cleaning and apology especially, and by taking away her chance to be disguised, she lost her one chance to be seen in something other than her usual outfit. And her remake disguise wouldn't have needed to be a soldier's uniform. It could've been something more feminine, like being dressed as a Shinra secretary or something. Aerith and Tifa got 3 dresses each, but Jessie never got even 1. SE could've given us an actual flashback to actually show Jessie during her time on stage and allow her to have a dress that way, but they didn't. And a picture on the wall isn't the same as seeing her actual in-game model in a dress like Aerith and Tifa.
And lastly, the choice of who to give the flower to could've not only been retained, but expanded to include Jessie as a possible recipient. She clearly saw the flower - the camera does a closeup of her looking at it before her gaze shifts to Cloud - but she never even says anything about it. That's sloppy storytelling. Basic storytelling rules state that if an object is emphasized in relation to a given character, something needs to happen between that character and that object at some point to justify that emphasis. But as I said, Jessie wasn't even allowed to say anything about it and she should've been even if we couldn't have given to her. It could've been made into a non-choice like getting the flower was. But instead, it became another missed opportunity. One of many in her case.
Cat on Mars
Actually not a cat
looneymoon
they/them
- AKA
- Rishi
supporting characters never get more screentime than the main cast.
Is this...
Discrimination?
Cat on Mars
Actually not a cat
In its most literal sense, discrimination is the act of making a distinction between one thing and other. We discriminate between things on a daily basis. For example, in order for you to get dressed you have to discriminate among your pants so that you could find the correct pair to put on. You also have to be able to make a distinction between the socks in your drawers so that you could find a matching pair.Is this...
Discrimination?
Discrimination means something different in the legal sense, but we're not talking about that.
Jairus
Author of FFVII: Lifestream & FFVII: Reflections
I never said they had to get more. It could've just been in addition to what was already there. And it IS a basic storytelling rule that if an object is emphasized in relation to a certain character, something should happen between that object and that character to justify that emphasis. Having a moment on the train where Jessie at least comments on the flower wouldn't have killed the game. Nor would allowing us to have had at least a non-choice about giving it to her (like getting the flower was a non-choice choice). Neither would retaining more of her OG moments.
Oh, and one other thing. Supporting characters don't always have to stay as supporting characters.
Oh, and one other thing. Supporting characters don't always have to stay as supporting characters.
Cat on Mars
Actually not a cat
Pacing. Also, the flower wasn't what that scene was about.
The game wanted that Cloud would give his flower to Tifa (please quote me out of context). That's what we got.
Do you want to see a good rendition of Cloud giving the flower to Jessie? My commissions are open.
Such as? I've been years since I replayed the OG.
crazyrabbits23
yes.
- AKA
- Alex
That's a problem in both games, but it has more to do with the pacing. In both the original and remake, from the time Cloud falls into the church, the pacing stays on both Cloud and Aerith, and eventually Tifa, because their focus is on a singular goal. Would it have been interesting to see Barret's cell planning for missions, reacting to Tifa's plan or finding out about the pillar? Maybe. Does it work in service to the plot? Not really. The only interesting thing to see might be them realizing the place is going to come down if they don't do something, but again, that's symptomatic of replicating the pacing from the OG and the fact that (right or wrong) the pacing stays on the characters who we know will survive in the short-term.
She's gone, Jairus. She isn't coming back. Let her go.
Rebalanced is the word I'd use. In the OG, she's barely more than stub of a character who has a crush on Cloud and is the bombmaker. In the remake, she has expanded motivations for her actions (failed as an actress, blames herself for the bomb going wrong, motivated by her father's Mako illness). Besides, there are other flirty moments the character has with Cloud - if anything, they went so over-the-top with that character flaw that it became outright annoying. Adding more examples of her being flirty would make her feel less endearing, IMO.
The focus of the flower is on both Tifa and Aerith, who have significant focus on the story. Might it have made sense to give the flower to Marlene? In the OG, sure. In the remake, Cloud still has no idea who she is after all this time, and Barret's behaviour makes it clear that he doesn't want her talking to strangers, period, especially outside mercs. Allowing you to give it to Jessie, who (as far as we know) has only just met Cloud and only had one (possibly) flirtatious conversation with him, depending on how well you did in the bombing mission, doesn't serve anything.
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Jairus
Author of FFVII: Lifestream & FFVII: Reflections
No, but the camera specifically zoomed in to show she saw it. She could've asked Cloud to stay a moment after the cargo car scene was over while the others went ahead and asked him about it.
In the OG, you could give the flower to either Tifa or Marlene. The remake took that choice away from us when they could have not only kept it, but expanded it to include Jessie as well. Nojima's Cloti bias strikes again. If you want to make an illustration of him giving it to her, though, that'd be fine. I'd like that.
In the OG, Cloud and Jessie have a scene alone in the cargo car after the others move ahead. She cleans his face after closing the side door (she was the one that closed it in the OG instead of Barret). She also thanked Cloud for saving her, and while that part was kept in the remake and moved earlier, there still could've been something put in its place in the cargo car so they still could've had that scene together. In addition, after looking at the map monitor, Jessie offers to make Cloud a special ID just for him, different from the rest. This was also cut, along with what it led to - how that same special ID set off the alarms on the train to Reactor 5 instead of all their ID's as the remake did it. In the OG, Jessie was on the train with them, the entire trio was. And they got to be disguised as well. Cloud could even compliment Jessie on hers if you wanted him to. That was also cut, and with it Jessie's one chance to be in something other than her Avalanche outfit. Aerith and Tifa got 3 dresses, but Jessie never got even one - and she could have if SE had allowed her to have an actual flashback to her time on stage to see her in a dress in-game so she'd have had the same chance for that that Aerith and Tifa had. Lastly, in the OG, when you meet Jessie in the underplate, she apologizes to Cloud for the ID she made setting off the alarms. That could've been a really nice scene between them to further show their growing friendship, but it was cut.
Actually, not showing how Barret and the others found out about the pillar is an oversight because we're left without any explanation as to how they had any idea of what was going on. The point is to keep the characters you've been spending all this time with already in the story - one scene of them in Chapter 8, Chapter 9, and Chapter 10 would've been enough. And it can work to serve the overall story because it keeps them in rather than making it feel like they've been forgotten and kicked aside.
Not necessarily. There's no reason to have her glove on the dresser if she isn't alive. SE knows that its very presence would be enough to get people to think she is. And it has. It adds nothing to the scene if she's not alive, and the fact that it's shown before Biggs is significant in that it gets you thinking about her before him. Getting her in mind, then seeing him alive immediately triggers the idea that maybe she could be, too. The pan across is only enough time for a short reaction like that.
Keeping those OG moments doesn't necessarily mean they all have to be flirty. There are entire scenes where she doesn't make a pass at him at all (such as when she talks to him in his apartment). The apology scene in the underplate would've been a similar more open moment, and it would've given us a chance to see her in a vulnerable moment with him and another side of her.
Not necessarily. She saw it. Therefore, it would not have been out of place for her to say something about it. And he saved her life. In the OG, the flower had no meaning - that was Nojima's Cloti bias letting Tifa butt into Aerith's moment just she butted into Jessie's moment in the reactor when she asked Cloud about her. There was no need for the flashback. It should've been Jessie's moment alone. And letting Cloud give her the flower (it could've been done in a "whatever" sort way that would've made it more Cloud-style and fit his character) wouldn't have hurt anything and would've given us the chance to do something we couldn't before. Just because hordes of people worship A & T doesn't mean Jessie shouldn't get the chance for something like that, too. And no explanation was given as to why she didn't say anything when she clearly saw it. It's prime flirting material. She should've been at least allowed to say something about it.
Cat on Mars
Actually not a cat
Too bad Tifa never said that, it was one of those lines decided on the spot for localization purposes.
Agree! Also, Marle is the best, we need more old ladies. More old people in general, but specially grandmas, because they're amazing.
Not necessarily. Too many flirty comments would be out of place, she's commited to the mission so she needs to stay focused. I like to think he can be serious too, you know? She's a dedicated member of Avalanche after all, "serious Jessie" is cool af.
About your recollection of scenes from the OG, I agree they cut some scenes with her, but while you only see losses I see the whole bike mission and other new, interesting interactions and more backstory. So I'm pretty satisfied with what we got.
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Jairus
Author of FFVII: Lifestream & FFVII: Reflections
It wouldn't necessarily have had to have been a flirty comment. She could've just been curious since it was so unusual. And she does go entire scenes without hitting on him at all, so she can be serious when she wants to be. I like what we got, I just feel that the OG moments could've been kept in addition to that. And that she could've been given a full flashback to show her on stage so we could see her as she was then in-game (and not just as a picture) and in a dress same as we got to see Aerith and Tifa. Hopefully the Gold Saucer will correct that oversight.
And I still feel her exit after Chapter 4 was abrupt. There could've been more time given before the Reactor 5 mission since she barely got to interact with Cloud after he warmed up to her. I think it would've been nice to show more of the difference in how they were later as compared to how they began, as I think by that point he'd have possibly reacted much differently to her flirting, for instance (it didn't seem to bother him in Chapter 12), given how much nicer he was to her by the end of Chapter 4. SE could've also had her hack into the computer system in Reactor 5 to have her help Cloud and the others and talk to them on various screens in the place - having her guide them on the panels, for instance, instead of Tifa, and having her explain to them about weakening Airbuster and working with them remotely to sabotage it instead of them figuring it all out themselves. That would've been a way to let her be around longer than she was and in a believable manner.
looneymoon
they/them
- AKA
- Rishi
If Belle Delphine can come make a bombastic return for sim- I mean fans, then I believe there is hope for Jessie
That would require a new model as well as the models for the stage at the golden saucer, which they'd want to do justice, that's a lot of extra work for just one scene, not a huge amount mind you, but still not really worth it for something unnecessary I'd guess.
You know, come to think of it, a jar of Bella Delaphines gamer girl bath water is a pretty hilarious gag gift.
Jairus
Author of FFVII: Lifestream & FFVII: Reflections
It's not unnecessary. It's something that would add to her character and give her the chance to be seen in the same way as Aerith and Tifa. But I guess nobody here likes the idea of her getting the same treatment as the two "holy" girls. Only they are ever allowed to look differently and be seen differently, I guess. The obvious disparity in treatment apparently doesn't matter to people here - 6 dresses for them/not even one for her. A picture on the wall isn't the same thing as an actual flashback and seeing the in-game model.
Cat on Mars
Actually not a cat
That's not true. Cloud got 3 dresses as well.
No, I don't think that's correct. Let's be honest here, they're not the same. Jessie is not someone in our team, she's not the same as Tifa and Aerith. I even prefer Jessie over Aerith, but that doesn't mean that I think she should have as much focus.
I am really glad that they went through the trouble of adding in her family and backstory. Don't forget, they didn't just "give us a picture", they added an entire part of the game where we saw her house, met her parents, and learned about her backstory.
But that doesn't change the fact that she's not a party member, nor a main character, and every second used to develop content for her is a second not used to develop content for others. If you wanted more content for her, you first need to say what content you'd want to remove in order to open up more time for the developers to work on other things, and then you need to justify why this would be the most logical thing to then spend that time on, instead of other things that might be more pressing.
Giving Jessie scenes in the gold saucer requires them to make decisions about the gold saucer, those matter, and won't be done without a bunch of designers and artists drawing up plans for it. That all takes work, work that could be better spend on other things.
"How do I get the most mileage out of the least amount of work", that's what developers are thinking about, that's why pallet swaps are a thing (well, that and hardware restraints). If you can get the same effect from a less time/money/labor intensive choice, that's what will generally be done.